Flawed Universe

[Michael]

Without the flawed the universe would be static.

[Akamu]

How is the universe flawed? Could it be possible that it just is, and maybe we attribute flaws to it via our own biases and perceptions?

[Taeguk]

I agree with Akamu---who says the universe is "flawed"? That's just a value judgment, and not a particularly helpful one at that.

Personally, I think the universe is perfect just as it is. To use the language of Daoism, the world is a sacred vessel...

I think a more accurate statement might be: Without emptiness (in the sense of sunyata) the universe would be static.

[scameter]

I don't know.

[bhujjy]

Re: Flawed Universe

A quick primer on the flawed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ...eature=related

[Michael]

I'm with scam and soc here.

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance. Flaw? Smaw.

But the question does pop up, could emptiness and flaw be the same?

[bhujjy]

Per Wikipedia

- the notion of 'flawed' requires a consideration of 'perfection'

- perfection:
- to be complete (needs nothing added or subtracted)

- Lucilio Vanini, early 1600's, noted that a perfect thing cannot 'improve'
- and so he had the impertinence to redefine perfection as something that had potential, essentially giving God a B+

- Lucilio was condemned as an atheist(optimist?) and had his tongue cut out, strangled, burned, and then presumably found himself in the presence of Rowan Atkinson.

[Taeguk]

Originally Posted by Michael

But the question does pop up, could emptiness and flaw be the same?

I don't see how, really, unless you're using some definition of the word "flaw" I'm unaware of:

flaw:

a feature that mars the perfection of something; defect; fault

By "emptiness" I am referring to a lack of inherent existence (i.e. "self-nature") and thus by implication Pratityasamutpada.

I personally don't see where "flaw" intersects with "sunyata"/"dependent-origination", but perhaps you can explain the connection.

Perhaps what you were driving at in the original post, Michael, was that "movement" is a progression, a movement from a state of lower perfection to a state of higher perfection (bhujjy also seems to be implying this is what you meant). In other words, you are describing a sort of progressive hierarchy?

I am personally not sure if such a notion makes sense, or is anything other than projecting human judgments (i.e. "flaw" and "perfection") onto phenomena. And the idea of a progressive hierarchy just seems too teleological to me. Like Akamu, I prefer to think the universe just is, and that the internal dialectic of "flaw" and "perfection" stops us from seeing its true nature in its resplendent ordinariness.

[Michael]

Of course it doesn't make sense!!!

But I would have to agree on the judgemental dimension of 'Flaw'.

Funny thing is, that cuts both ways.

Got to be very, very careful of that one. It's all too easy to get cut on the perfect edge of that blade.

I meant 'flaw' in the sense that what we see as flaw is simply the essential process of change. Perfection is stasis.

Which is not to say the universe is not 'just is'. Hence my question about questions - though I think I made a major mistake by using the singular rather than the plural.

Consider, without flaw you can't have change. What is a flaw? It is the weakest part of the whole. The point of change. This is the point of no resistance, the point of natural change.

This is the point at which what is and what is not interact.

The Flawed Mother


On this utterly still day
the rain falls unceasingly -
as the tears
from her ever open eyes -
and around her feet
are swathed blooms
of snowdrop, hyacinth
and lily.

[Taeguk]

Hi Michael,

Originally Posted by Michael

Of course it doesn't make sense!!!

But I would have to agree on the judgemental dimension of 'Flaw'.

Funny thing is, that cuts both ways.

Got to be very, very careful of that one. It's all too easy to get cut on the perfect edge of that blade.

You make an excellent point---I will be sure to be very careful of my fingers when handling it

Originally Posted by Michael

I meant 'flaw' in the sense that what we see as flaw is simply the essential process of change. Perfection is stasis.

Well, some of us (perhaps many of us?) see it this way. I personally find perfection in change, flux, and flow.

Originally Posted by Michael

Consider, without flaw you can't have change. What is a flaw? It is the weakest part of the whole. The point of change. This is the point of no resistance, the point of natural change.

This is the point at which what is and what is not interact.

Thank you for this passage and the poem, Michael---I don't think I quite understood what you were driving at before. On the whole I agree with you