Pursuit Of Happiness

CSwriter1 · 25th October 2006, 07:50 AM

How much leisure time is too much leisure time, and what does the pursuit of happiness mean?

"The inquiry of truth, which is the love-making or wooing of it, the knowledge of truth, which is the prasie of it; and the belief of truth, which is the enjoying of it, is the soverign good of human natures."
Francis Bacon

Thomas Knierim · 25th October 2006, 08:33 AM

I am not sure, how the Francis Bacon quotation relates to the pursuit of happiness. Bacon seems to talk about the pursuit of knowledge rather than the pursuit of happiness. The statement reverberates with enthusiasm for inquiry, which is very characteristic for the leading thinkers of Bacon's period.

Ultimately, the quest for knowledge is a universal human trait, isn't it? It is undeveloped in some, suppressed in others, but it is quite inescapable and it always shines through. Even the most ignorant person maintains a measure of curiosity. It also raises the interesting question whether the pursuit of knowledge leads to happiness. Different opinions exist about this...

Cheers, Thomas

scameter · 25th October 2006, 10:44 AM

"The inquiry of truth, which is the love-making or wooing of it, the knowledge of truth, which is the prasie of it; and the belief of truth, which is the enjoying of it, is the soverign good of human natures."
Francis Bacon

I agree with Thomas's perception of that; the quote seems more about knowledge than happiness.

Ultimately, the quest for knowledge is a universal human trait, isn't it? It is undeveloped in some, suppressed in others, but it is quite inescapable and it always shines through. Even the most ignorant person maintains a measure of curiosity. It also raises the interesting question whether the pursuit of knowledge leads to happiness. Different opinions exist about this...

I think it is a universal trait only in humans in many individuals, but not in all. I think belief is much more universal for humans, because you can be completely ignorant of much knowledge and yet hold true to your beliefs and know them extensively. Most tradition is nothing more than belief. But, I personally believe that emotion is the underlying thing in people; it is why we are curious and indeed want knowledge, it is why we hold beliefs, why we create and imagine, and why we do anything we do, besides of course necessary things, but if you notice, we have and still are making every effort to keep necessities on the sideline so we can pursue what we enjoy without distraction. I think emotion is reactive, in that we do not thinkingly create it, but I think we can create situations to make certain emotions come out, like making a tradegy to evoke sadness or horror to evoke fear, but I think that because we can create this situations, we thus know what incites these emotions, and thus we are capable of knowing, as individuals, what we enjoy, and what makes us happy. I think happiness is more than just enjoyment, however; I think it is also experiencing life, i.e. living, but I think enjoyment (not to be confused with pleasure, which is predominantly physical) is the main component of happiness. So, as the Hagakure (excuse my spelling) promotes, we should do what we are happy, and live life as we enjoy it, while we're here.

______ · 26th October 2006, 08:08 PM

"Pursuit of Happiness..."

Well, what makes one happy?

scameter · 26th October 2006, 08:42 PM

Living, as individuals, with their desires met and their anxieties not, and with the freedom to choose how to live that life exactly as they wish. I think this happiness is great - the entire goal of being human - but I also think that harmony is important, especially if this happiness is singularly pursued by all humans. For harmony to ensue, the happinesses of others must not be disturbed by the desires of one's self; as in, if I enjoy rape, but the other person is obviously not happy, it should not be pursued. I think the main aspect to harmony is choice, and entirely free, open choice at that. Nothing should be forced without choice, but also without ignorance of the thing being proposed. Thus, knowledge is also crucial to happiness, but not necessarily a passion for knowledge; only knowledge of an individual's circumstances and that of a proposition, and ultimately, of one's self.

CSwriter1 · 27th October 2006, 05:57 AM

Thomas is right. Soldier of truth used a good quote. Scamemter you articulated yourself very well!

Now trying this site:

The Hellenist Quest for Universal Order (300 to 150 BC) - By Miles ...On-going Platonism and the new Stoicism stepped right into this thought mode. ... Greeks find happiness within themselves--apart from the public domain. ...
www.newgenevacenter.org/west/hellenistic2.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

When I used Bacon's quote, I had Thomas Jeffereson and the the Declaration of Independence in mind. I think this subject, and the wider explanation of it, is very pertinent to today, because we are as in Athens in decay, or the Europe from which our forefathers separated themselves where royalty went into foolish wars and a few glutted themselves with luxury while the masses remained in poverty. These forefathers were literate in Greek and Roman classics, and I believe this is essential to correctly understanding democracy and the intended meaning of the pursuit of happiness.

scameter · 27th October 2006, 10:01 PM

Scamemter you articulated yourself very well!

Thanks.

Greeks find happiness within themselves--apart from the public domain. ...

Definitely. They were very individualistic people I believe, as well as introspective. Unlike the East, as I made a point of saying in another post.

I think this subject, and the wider explanation of it, is very pertinent to today, because we are as in Athens in decay, or the Europe from which our forefathers separated themselves where royalty went into foolish wars and a few glutted themselves with luxury while the masses remained in poverty. These forefathers were literate in Greek and Roman classics, and I believe this is essential to correctly understanding democracy and the intended meaning of the pursuit of happiness.

Well, the thing about modern happiness is, whereas in the past ideals, knowledge, wisdom and introspection were the ways to happiness, we now use narcissistic pleasure-seeking and the gaining of luxuries and security, as well as success of the individual even beyond the individualism of Greece, as the means to personal happiness. This is why America's population is so much more widely rich and monetarily heavy than that of other nations and cultures: we have put money and individual success via it first before everything else in the form of capitalism, and I think it is the most brilliant political move ever. The founding fathers of America knew what made the world go round, what made societies prosper, and what the people wanted, and so they gave it to them, in the forms of democratic republic and capitalism. They also thew in some humanism to make sure the people were treated well, but that again is merely because the people wanted it. By giving the people the ability to vote for what they want, and being able to truly make those wants real, the founding fathers made America the greatest society of all time, from a societal viewpoint. Not necessarily from an idealistic or ethical or religious viewpoint, but so as to the success of our nation.

Michael · 28th October 2006, 08:37 PM

Yes, I'd have to conclude that Bacon was talking about knowledge. Democrates expressed the same joy of the pursuit of knowledge when he said that he would give the throne of Persia to find one causal effect.

As for the pursuit of happiness, I've never heard of the verb attaining the object.

liquidharmony · 28th October 2006, 09:35 PM

The pursuit of knowledge can bring happiness. A child can sit for hours and be perfectly content tasting different colored crayons. knowledge doesn't only come in the form of books. I would consider going surfing to be knowledgeable, many would disagree, but I am learning every time I go. Some people when they reach a certain age, feel they know everything there is to know. Its usually around this same age when emotional problems or substance abuse takes the place of discovery. Knowledge may not always bring happiness, but an idle mind surely never will.

CSwriter1 · 28th October 2006, 10:09 PM

Liquidharmony, you brought up an important point, I didn't know how to bring up- commitment. The pursuit of happiness is associated with commitment.
If you think you are learning something everytime you go surfing and that makes you happy, you must be committed to aquiring that knowledge/skill.

I can be left in a museum for a day, and be very happy.
I am the only one in my family who is like this. Everyone else wants to get through the museum as fast as possible; to go to something that is fun.

I think everyone at the big view, sincerely wants to learn, so commit ourselves to learning, and get pleasure from it.

Scameter, I think your observation is correct, but the conclusion is wrong. What you said would be in line with what liquidharmony said, about coming to a stage of thinking when we think we know all that is important and turn to drugs, or excessive shopping, or excessive eating, or other addictions. I think our nation has an addiction problem, because the pursuit of happiness is not maturing to the kinds of commitment essential to individual and social happiness.

AlphaAurigae, makes a good point, "I've never heard of the verb attaining the object". We get addicted because the happiness is the result of the pursuit, not the end product of the pursuit. To learn every time we go surfing, means the learning is fun, but once one feels she/he has has no more to learn, that perfection has been acheive, that this pursuit will have to change to another one. By the way, liquidharmony, I very much appreciate your connection between achieving the age when should know better, being the age when addiction problems can come up. Very interesting insight.

I will have to bring this up at a detox center, where I do art with detoxing people.

25th October 2006, 07:50 AM	#1
CSwriter1 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 611	How much leisure time is too much leisure time, and what does the pursuit of happiness mean? "The inquiry of truth, which is the love-making or wooing of it, the knowledge of truth, which is the prasie of it; and the belief of truth, which is the enjoying of it, is the soverign good of human natures." Francis Bacon __________________ Eve is followed by the Dawn of the New Age.

26th October 2006, 08:08 PM	#4
______ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Baghdad, Iraq Posts: 800	"Pursuit of Happiness..." Well, what makes one happy? __________________ The truest soldier stands Not for his country But for himself, For out of him His country rises. -Unknown

27th October 2006, 05:57 AM	#6
CSwriter1 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 611	Thomas is right. Soldier of truth used a good quote. Scamemter you articulated yourself very well! Now trying this site: The Hellenist Quest for Universal Order (300 to 150 BC) - By Miles ...On-going Platonism and the new Stoicism stepped right into this thought mode. ... Greeks find happiness within themselves--apart from the public domain. ... www.newgenevacenter.org/west/hellenistic2.htm - 40k - Cached - Similar pages When I used Bacon's quote, I had Thomas Jeffereson and the the Declaration of Independence in mind. I think this subject, and the wider explanation of it, is very pertinent to today, because we are as in Athens in decay, or the Europe from which our forefathers separated themselves where royalty went into foolish wars and a few glutted themselves with luxury while the masses remained in poverty. These forefathers were literate in Greek and Roman classics, and I believe this is essential to correctly understanding democracy and the intended meaning of the pursuit of happiness. __________________ Eve is followed by the Dawn of the New Age.

28th October 2006, 08:37 PM	#8
Michael Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 1,306	Yes, I'd have to conclude that Bacon was talking about knowledge. Democrates expressed the same joy of the pursuit of knowledge when he said that he would give the throne of Persia to find one causal effect. As for the pursuit of happiness, I've never heard of the verb attaining the object. __________________ All will be well, all manner of things will be well

28th October 2006, 09:35 PM	#9
liquidharmony Regular Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 73	The pursuit of knowledge can bring happiness. A child can sit for hours and be perfectly content tasting different colored crayons. knowledge doesn't only come in the form of books. I would consider going surfing to be knowledgeable, many would disagree, but I am learning every time I go. Some people when they reach a certain age, feel they know everything there is to know. Its usually around this same age when emotional problems or substance abuse takes the place of discovery. Knowledge may not always bring happiness, but an idle mind surely never will. __________________ I studied her body with the intricacy of a mountain Much more fragile than a mountain Much more fragile than the woman inside

25th October 2006, 08:33 AM	#2
Thomas Knierim Administrator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand Posts: 2,031	I am not sure, how the Francis Bacon quotation relates to the pursuit of happiness. Bacon seems to talk about the pursuit of knowledge rather than the pursuit of happiness. The statement reverberates with enthusiasm for inquiry, which is very characteristic for the leading thinkers of Bacon's period. Ultimately, the quest for knowledge is a universal human trait, isn't it? It is undeveloped in some, suppressed in others, but it is quite inescapable and it always shines through. Even the most ignorant person maintains a measure of curiosity. It also raises the interesting question whether the pursuit of knowledge leads to happiness. Different opinions exist about this... Cheers, Thomas

25th October 2006, 10:44 AM	#3
scameter Tankare Join Date: May 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 6,224	"The inquiry of truth, which is the love-making or wooing of it, the knowledge of truth, which is the prasie of it; and the belief of truth, which is the enjoying of it, is the soverign good of human natures." Francis Bacon I agree with Thomas's perception of that; the quote seems more about knowledge than happiness. Ultimately, the quest for knowledge is a universal human trait, isn't it? It is undeveloped in some, suppressed in others, but it is quite inescapable and it always shines through. Even the most ignorant person maintains a measure of curiosity. It also raises the interesting question whether the pursuit of knowledge leads to happiness. Different opinions exist about this... I think it is a universal trait only in humans in many individuals, but not in all. I think belief is much more universal for humans, because you can be completely ignorant of much knowledge and yet hold true to your beliefs and know them extensively. Most tradition is nothing more than belief. But, I personally believe that emotion is the underlying thing in people; it is why we are curious and indeed want knowledge, it is why we hold beliefs, why we create and imagine, and why we do anything we do, besides of course necessary things, but if you notice, we have and still are making every effort to keep necessities on the sideline so we can pursue what we enjoy without distraction. I think emotion is reactive, in that we do not thinkingly create it, but I think we can create situations to make certain emotions come out, like making a tradegy to evoke sadness or horror to evoke fear, but I think that because we can create this situations, we thus know what incites these emotions, and thus we are capable of knowing, as individuals, what we enjoy, and what makes us happy. I think happiness is more than just enjoyment, however; I think it is also experiencing life, i.e. living, but I think enjoyment (not to be confused with pleasure, which is predominantly physical) is the main component of happiness. So, as the Hagakure (excuse my spelling) promotes, we should do what we are happy, and live life as we enjoy it, while we're here.

26th October 2006, 08:42 PM	#5
scameter Tankare Join Date: May 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 6,224	Living, as individuals, with their desires met and their anxieties not, and with the freedom to choose how to live that life exactly as they wish. I think this happiness is great - the entire goal of being human - but I also think that harmony is important, especially if this happiness is singularly pursued by all humans. For harmony to ensue, the happinesses of others must not be disturbed by the desires of one's self; as in, if I enjoy rape, but the other person is obviously not happy, it should not be pursued. I think the main aspect to harmony is choice, and entirely free, open choice at that. Nothing should be forced without choice, but also without ignorance of the thing being proposed. Thus, knowledge is also crucial to happiness, but not necessarily a passion for knowledge; only knowledge of an individual's circumstances and that of a proposition, and ultimately, of one's self.

27th October 2006, 10:01 PM	#7
scameter Tankare Join Date: May 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 6,224	Scamemter you articulated yourself very well! Thanks. Greeks find happiness within themselves--apart from the public domain. ... Definitely. They were very individualistic people I believe, as well as introspective. Unlike the East, as I made a point of saying in another post. I think this subject, and the wider explanation of it, is very pertinent to today, because we are as in Athens in decay, or the Europe from which our forefathers separated themselves where royalty went into foolish wars and a few glutted themselves with luxury while the masses remained in poverty. These forefathers were literate in Greek and Roman classics, and I believe this is essential to correctly understanding democracy and the intended meaning of the pursuit of happiness. Well, the thing about modern happiness is, whereas in the past ideals, knowledge, wisdom and introspection were the ways to happiness, we now use narcissistic pleasure-seeking and the gaining of luxuries and security, as well as success of the individual even beyond the individualism of Greece, as the means to personal happiness. This is why America's population is so much more widely rich and monetarily heavy than that of other nations and cultures: we have put money and individual success via it first before everything else in the form of capitalism, and I think it is the most brilliant political move ever. The founding fathers of America knew what made the world go round, what made societies prosper, and what the people wanted, and so they gave it to them, in the forms of democratic republic and capitalism. They also thew in some humanism to make sure the people were treated well, but that again is merely because the people wanted it. By giving the people the ability to vote for what they want, and being able to truly make those wants real, the founding fathers made America the greatest society of all time, from a societal viewpoint. Not necessarily from an idealistic or ethical or religious viewpoint, but so as to the success of our nation.

28th October 2006, 10:09 PM	#10
CSwriter1 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 611	Liquidharmony, you brought up an important point, I didn't know how to bring up- commitment. The pursuit of happiness is associated with commitment. If you think you are learning something everytime you go surfing and that makes you happy, you must be committed to aquiring that knowledge/skill. I can be left in a museum for a day, and be very happy. I am the only one in my family who is like this. Everyone else wants to get through the museum as fast as possible; to go to something that is fun. I think everyone at the big view, sincerely wants to learn, so commit ourselves to learning, and get pleasure from it. Scameter, I think your observation is correct, but the conclusion is wrong. What you said would be in line with what liquidharmony said, about coming to a stage of thinking when we think we know all that is important and turn to drugs, or excessive shopping, or excessive eating, or other addictions. I think our nation has an addiction problem, because the pursuit of happiness is not maturing to the kinds of commitment essential to individual and social happiness. AlphaAurigae, makes a good point, "I've never heard of the verb attaining the object". We get addicted because the happiness is the result of the pursuit, not the end product of the pursuit. To learn every time we go surfing, means the learning is fun, but once one feels she/he has has no more to learn, that perfection has been acheive, that this pursuit will have to change to another one. By the way, liquidharmony, I very much appreciate your connection between achieving the age when should know better, being the age when addiction problems can come up. Very interesting insight. I will have to bring this up at a detox center, where I do art with detoxing people. __________________ Eve is followed by the Dawn of the New Age.

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