Dependent Origination

[francis]

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

......when in fact Kamma is (as stated previously) a propper subset enclosed entirely within the confines of Dependent Origination's domain and range in mathematical jargon. One would state this relationship logically:

While all kamma is dependently originated, not all dependent origination is kamma; just as while all horses are quadrapeds, not all quadrapeds are horses.

references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

Ron, I’m not sure I follow your sub-sets and venn diagrams. Dependent origination is cause and effect. That’s what it is all about. A being present, B arises; in the absence of A, B does not arise. The nidana chain is a way of representing cause and effect. As stated previously, the third link consciousness in the current life, is a result of the first two links of karma formations arising from ignorance. I'm not exactly sure what point you were making, what are your thoughts on getting off the wheel?

[Ron-the-Elder]

Malinson;92372: If there is eternal life as an infinitum would create, then the whole of life can never end. If there is interdependencies as you believe, then the whole of eternal life cannot exist apart from you, irrespective of how yourself is percieved.

You continue to deal in hypotheticals whereas Buddha teaches reality. The reality is as told in The Four Noble Truths: Life is suffering. There is a cause of suffering. There is a means to end suffering. That means is living one's life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path.

You are confusing states and conditions of existence with durations of existence. Existence is and cannot be dated as it has no beginning and no end.

That over which you have control is your state(s) of existence, not duration. You control your state(s) of existence by your intentional actions of thoughts, words and deeds. So long as you choose (intend) to act in accordance with your attachments then your state of existence will be subject to kamma. When you choose to live your life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path of The Four Noble Truths then you will no longer be subject to kamma. In short as you let go of those attachments which are causing your suffering the consequences of your actions will no longer affect you and you will experience nibanna.

Malinson;92372: Samsara cannot offer infinite life cycles if there is any potential to end it. This would be a contradiction.

-Malinson

Samsara doesn't offer anything. It is a state of existence. We can exist in a state of suffering, stress, and disatisfaction due to our ignorance, or we can exist in a state of freedom, release, and unlimited boundaries in nibbana by choosing to live our lives in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path of The Four Noble Truths. It's up to you. It's your life. It's your choice.

[Ron-the-Elder]

Originally Posted by francis

Ron, I’m not sure I follow your sub-sets and venn diagrams. Dependent origination is cause and effect. That’s what it is all about. A being present, B arises; in the absence of A, B does not arise. The nidana chain is a way of representing cause and effect. As stated previously, the third link consciousness in the current life, is a result of the first two links of karma formations arising from ignorance. I'm not exactly sure what point you were making, what are your thoughts on getting off the wheel?

The Way off the wheel is The Noble Eight Fold Path, The Middle Way.

Friends:

Any Buddha is a sublimely Well Gone One (Sugata):

1: Because of the Way he has travelled, was good,
2: Because of having gone to an excellent Destination,
3: Because of having gone there Completely and Absolutely,
4: Because of explaining the Way thereto suitably and precisely!
The Noble 8 fold Way he went, was purified and blameless, since it was without delay,
obstruction, and leading directly to a sublime safety! The excellent place, that he has
gone to is the deathless state of Nibbāna, which is supreme, since this happy mode of
existence cannot be found anywhere else! He has furthermore gone there completely
absolutely & irreversibly without ever going back again to the defilements eliminated
by each stage of path. For this is said: He does not again turn around, return, or slide
back to the defilements abandoned by first the stream-entry, then the once-returner,
then the never-returner and finally the Arahat path, thus is he supremely well gone...
From the time of making his resolution at the feet of Dīpankara Buddha many universal
cycles ago, up until his Enlightenment in year 534 BC, by working solely for the welfare
and happiness of the entire world, and through the fulfilment of the thirty perfections,
and through following the Middle Way without ever deviating towards either of the two
extremes, that is: Neither towards indulgence in sense pleasures, nor in any self-torture,
neither towards any form of eternalism, nor any form of annihilationism, therefore is he
sublimely well gone (sugata), having gone rightly and exactly down the exceedingly subtle,
razor-sharp and difficult Noble 8-Fold Middle Way! Then he enunciates and explains this
unique Way rightly & exactly by speaking only about what is relevant, what fits the present
occasion and in a way that suits the ability of the many listeners, so that they understand...
Therefore also is he a sublimely Well Gone (Sugata) One, because of explaining this Way
faultlessly, systematically and accurately. Vism I 203



More on these perfectly Well Gone Ones (Sammā-SamBuddha):
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/buddha.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/SammaSambuddho.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/...a/arimet00.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/...bodhisatta.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV...as_Similes.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/...u/metteyya.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV...templation.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II...re_Buddhas.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/...a_sambodhi.htm
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV...a_Metteyya.htm

Well Gone Beyond!


Updated: 13 September 2009 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/V/Well_Gone.htm

As for the kamma being a propper subset of Dependent Origination( DO ), I don't know what else to say to make it any clearer, other than the whole intention of this thread was to point out that DO is not seperate from Kamma as some practitioners seem to think. DO contains kamma, but there are types of DO which do not contain kamma. In other words, kamma is a special type of DO which only applies to sentient beings, which can form intentions. For the rest of existence, that which is non-sentient and not-sapient, DO "is" cause and effect, but sometimes not very simple.....just the opposite. ; )

[Malinson]

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Samsara offers us the opportunity of infinite life-times

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Samsara doesn't offer anything.

What dose Samsara offer again?

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

There is no agent.

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

You control your state(s) of existence by your intentional actions of thoughts, words and deeds.

How can I be an agent of my own causation if there is no agent?

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Each sentient form is a consequence of kamma

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

It is only kamma that moves on and karmic consequences that arise like frothing scum on the surface of a turbulent river.

Waves are the sea, and as they dissipate upon the shores of the cosmic ocean, it reforms and moves to bring rise to another. Waves have not the freedom of will apart from the karmic formations from which they rose. They express not the articulations of self direction, only the expressional flows of its true identity, the whole of the endless ocean.

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

We can exist in a state of suffering

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

You continue to deal in hypothetical’s whereas Buddha teaches reality.

What is reality if taught that we ourselves only exist hypothetically?

-Malinson

[donnamaeb01]

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Definitely food for thought, which is also dependently arisen.

Wow! Good Stuff! Now I am. Thinking.

[Ron-the-Elder]

Malinson;92376: What dose Samsara offer again?

How can I be an agent of my own causation if there is no agent?

Please forgive my poor choice of words.

First there is a difference between mundane existence and ultimate reality. When we speak in mundane, everyday parlance, we use words like self, you, me, and the next guy over, when in ultimate reality there is no permanent self, no agent, only a process, constantly changing and impermanent.

Malinson;92376: Waves are the sea, and as they dissipate upon the shores of the cosmic ocean, it reforms and moves to bring rise to another. Waves have not the freedom of will apart from the karmic formations from which they rose. They express not the articulations of self direction, only the expressional flows of its true identity, the whole of the endless ocean.
What is reality if taught that we ourselves only exist hypothetically?

-Malinson

That's why we (our karmic effects) keep coming back until we do know. Then and only then do we get to leave the samsaric cycle.

[Ron-the-Elder]

What is reality if taught that we ourselves only exist hypothetically?

-Malinson

I wanted to clarify regarding your confusion regarding this point:

The reality of which Buddha speaks is the reality of suffering, stress, and disatisfaction. This reality arises due to Dependent Origination, which is the process of impermanent forms arising due to impermanent causes, and our attachment, craving, lusting for those forms. We will always suffer, be stressed, and disatisfied due to such attachments because of their impermanence guarenteeing that they will eventually deteriorate, or decompose and be taken away from us.

Our existence is "not" hypothetical. No one said that but you. What Buddha said was that there are states of existence:

1. Samsaric existence, a place of suffering, stress, and disatisfaction where we are dependently originated due to causes and impermanent.
2. And, Nibanna, reality, the way things actually are when our ignorance of The Four Noble Truths and our cravings are discontinued.

To use an analogy:

Samsara is a state of existence similar to a man groping around in an acidic, stinking fog, which burns the eyes, nose, tongue, throat and skin.

Nibanna is a state of existence whereby the acidic fog has been lifted, whereby the eyes, nose, throat, and skin are no longer corroded, the vision is clear, the smell and taste is clean and refreshing, free from all insults, annoyances and discomfort.

The man is still in the same place. The only thing which has changed is the environmental conditions.

In samsaric reality it is our ignorance which is the stinking acidic fog. When our ignorance is lifted, so is the suffering, stress, and disatisfaction.

Nothing is hypothetical as "you" and only you said.

[francis]

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

The Way off the wheel is The Noble Eight Fold Path, The Middle Way.

Thanks, Ron. Fair enough, I get what you are saying. Also thanks for the link to the The Twelve Nidanas. It has been educating read. I got a lot out of reading the “The Whole Description” bit towards the end of the page, especially the articles on on feelings and lust. Cheers


Hey Malinson, did you take a peak at Ron’s link on The Twelve Nidanas? It’s worth a look, especially as you are always asking questions about Samsara. It might also help you develop a basic understanding of Buddhism, which will help you answer “Your Question and Your Question Again”, which btw, are questions that only you can answer.

[wuwei]

Originally Posted by Malinson

To take the position that there are infinite universes while at the same believing in intimate karmic interdependencies causes serious conflicts.

If what you are saying is true, then we cannot possibly be the agents of our own causation as Buddhism would attest. We could not be the agent cause of the basis of our existence, for it would be the whole of infinite Samsara that would be responsible.

It explicates the position that we are not just a part of Samsara, but Samsara is actually us. Since Samsara spans infinite realms of universes and unending life, then this position states that we are the whole of unending life that is the whole of Samsara.

Circumstantial evidence stacks against the idea of an agent causal separation from an infinitum, irrespective of the level of ambiguity. To claim a potential end to an infinitum is an oxymoron. There is no end.

There can be no separation from an eternal identity.

-Malinson

Malinson, my friend. Your frustration comes because you are seeking truth.

The purpose of Buddhism is not to find truth, it is to reach enlightenment, which is freedom from truth; the extinguishment of all that we call "true" and "not true;" the annihilation of ignorance, which is the root of karma.

[Malinson]

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

You continue to deal in hypotheticals whereas Buddha teaches reality.

Originally Posted by Ron-the-Elder

Nibanna is a state of existence

Show me Nirvana

Show me Nibanna

Nirvana exists only in your mind. It’s an ideology not an actuality, for it’s not something that you can demonstrate or show. These phrasing schemes are meant to brainwash ignorant minds in order to elevate a system of beliefs. They are so settle that even I believed it, but not everyone gets wise to it.

Samsara means endless cycle of suffering. To live is to invariably suffer. Life brings with it inescapable suffering. I reject this narrow observation. Life need not suffer and not all life invariably suffers, nor even experiences suffering, yet they can exist all the same. More likely this is where the eight fold path leads, but why would I desire it not?

The greater the valleys the higher the peaks, for without suffering we can never obtain the greatest of pleasures and joy. To desire life without suffering only breeds ignorance and decay. Many people, even on Earth, hold suffering close, for it is a powerful tool of spiritual development, one they would never desire to live without.

Nirvana in truth is a fantasy, for no cause can ever lead to a timeless state of affair. Even if you follow the path that leads to it, it cannot be achieved without dragging the last link of your causal chain with you. It’s the transcendence that leaves a karmic trail, unhinging the purity of the affair, dragging it back into a rebirthing existence.

-Malinson