The Decline of Western Civilization

[MythicalTigress]

What happened to Western Civ? It would seem to me that we started out okay. Honest, hard working, considerate, and strong family values. It just seems to me that we have lost our good demeanor. The travesties that are committed in this country are atrocious. We went from having goals, values and morals to stealing, killing, hurting others we don't even know and there seems to be a lack of consideration, common courtesy and respect for your fellow human beings. Folks have gone from please, thank you, excuse me and I apologize to pushing people out of their way, cursing at people, cheating others. lying and generally not caring about anyone but themselves and any friends or family they care about. In some cases the so called friends and family are the worst to each other. Parents abusing their children. Less than laudable people out sneaking around doing things they know are illegal but not caring. Then there is the criminal population that has been set back out on the streets cause there is not enough room in our jails and prisons to house them all. We have so many prisons and jails in this country already and they keep building more. Which brings me to my next point. How did we get here. It would seem that the legal and judicial system are a bit flawed. The jails are so full cause they keep putting folks in there for things that are less than jail worthy. Quit putting traffic offenders in jail. Not like drunk drivers or reckless drivers I talking about folks in jail for insurance issues and speeding tickets. There is always the folks that are wrongly incarcerated and the ones who are in there for such minor offenses. There are other options besides jail. You would think that the folks in charge would be smart enough to figure out other punishments for the minor offenders. Then the jails wouldn't be so full. And hard criminals are getting set loose so some guy who didn't have insurance on his vehicle and got pulled over for a tail light out or something. Which brings me to my final point. Education? Is it getting worse and worse or is it just me? I lived a bit of a sheltered life in my younger years and came out into the world after college still under the impression that most people in this country had the same upbringing as I did and were instilled with the same morals and values and similar experiences growing up. Then I got out on my own and moved into my first apartment (many years ago). I met this totally cool dude and we started dating. He happened to be involved in all kinds of community activities so he new tons of folks from all walks of life. Everything from my text book type upbringing - a decent home, two parents, typical suburbia life. Single child never wanted for much was punished appropriately for my transgressions. Grounding, extra chores, that kind of thing. Then I started meeting all these people at one point in time we had a circle of friends that totaled around 150 people. For some reason these folks saw me as a confidant. When my man was out at work sometimes someone would show up and be like I don't have anything to do today so I thought I would come visit. Suddenly they were pouring their heart out to me. This is when my realizations started. I had a fella that was the boyfriend of my boyfriend's sister. He had trouble with the law for stupid reasons. He was in jail when I first met my boyfriends family it was a year before he got out. On this particular day this hardened criminal sat down next to me and started talking. He said things like I don't know why I keep messing up. I love my girl and our three kids and I know how much I am hurting them by continuing to mess up. He seemed confused as to why he kept on the same path he began to cry. On another instance while I was part time bar tending I made friends with one of the bouncers he was already a friend of my old man. He seemed pretty cool. Then I started hearing rumors that he was abusive to women. I had never seen that in him but everyone said it was true. Again one day we ended up alone in my apartment. We were just hanging out messing around on the computer, watching movies and stuff. Then all of a sudden while we were sitting in the living room, it had been silent for a little while when he turned to me and said can I talk to you about something. I said sure. He began to speak about how he got to where he was in his life. He had a girlfriend years ago and they lived together. Sometimes when they had friends over they would get into an argument. Instead of arguing in front of company they would go upstairs to their bedroom. She would start throwing herself around the room in a fit of anger. Breaking things, banging her head on the wall, screaming and shouting. The folks downstairs assumed he was hitting her. After a couple of episodes like that one day they were up in the room like usual arguing. She was freaking out so he balled up his fist and punched her. She stopped freaking out and was quiet. In his head he figured he had not done anything wrong. The fight was over she wasn't hurting herself and had stopped yelling. He assumed he could just deal with the consequence of punching her later. With the flowers, candy, card, gift and or apology. He thought he had found his solution. However he did not. The violence escalated and one day they were out shopping driving a convertible car with the top down. They began to argue and she started screaming so loud she was drawing attention so he punched her right there in the parking lot. Again it worked for what he wanted, she stopped screaming and calmed down. She left him shortly after that incident. But the violence followed him through all his next relationships. As he progressively got worse he started doing other crimes. Paper crimes, muggings, and grand theft auto. In the end right before he was put away he held a gun to his own mothers face cause he wanted to use her car. She wasn't going for it so he punched her so hard he knocked her out. There was no one else at her house. He took her car and shortly after his brother came to their moms house and found her out cold on the floor and her car gone. He called the police on his own brother. They found him and put him away. That was eight years ago - he is still in prison today.
There were so many other instances I could not relate them all in here. I would like to say that I don't believe that childhood abuse necessarily leads to adult criminal behavior. I met and talked to folks that had similar abusive situations as children and folks that had it a whole lot worse. Some of them felt the world owed them for what they endured as a child. Some of them learned from the experience and vowed to themselves that they would never be like that and most of the ones I talked to were still on that good path. Would hurt a fly, polite, fun and generous.
I don't know what the cause is for people losing site of what is or should common knowledge. I guess that's might be the problem right there - common knowledge is not very common. Our world is scary and continues to decline. I am not a very religious person but looks to me like we are coming up to that wacky fire and brimstone ending in the bible.

[RedZephyr]

I would have liked to see a combination of all choices on your poll, but alas I picked the one that in my eyes, seemed to be the main factor.

[MythicalTigress]

Good call I should have put that in as a choice.

[sonrisa]

I picked negative enviromental situations- that can include, abuse/neglect, the peer pressure, as well as other things.

[Thomas Knierim]

Sounds like human nature to me.

I wonder why the MythicalTigress would think this sort of thing is specific to Western civilisation or even America. As far as I can tell, things are not much better here in Asia. Violence and crime are certainly not limited to the Western civilisation. For example, two weeks ago the government of the country where I live was shooting at political demonstrators which left 440 people injured and two dead. Earlier this year, the Burmese junta cracked down on unarmed monks! Not to mention all the "common" violence that occurs in families and society all the time.

You can't change the world, but you can change yourself. Everyone can help make this place more bearable by renouncing violence, harshness and anger. It's no rocket science.

Cheers, Thomas

[MythicalTigress]

Certainly did not mean to take away from the horrors of other countries. Simply an observation that our country went from friendly, lucrative and safe. To angry, sinking in deficit, and dangerous. Other countries have been at war with one another for hundreds of years in some cases. America does not have to deal with the war torn daily life Yet. But it is sad to see a place that was once refuge for others turning into a country slowly hitting the downward spiral into darkness.

[Chan Tiger]

The whole thread seems to rest on an unfounded assumption, namely that Western Civilization or civilization in general is in fact declining.

There is often a tendency to fetishize the past, to believe there was some long lost "golden age" where everything was perfect and fluffy bunnies frolicked happily in chocolate fields under rainbow skies.

The problem is that this is mythology, not history. Perhaps such a blissful era belongs to our future. But it most assuredly does not belong to our past.

You seem to be talking largely about the United States, and while our leadership has been terrible during the past eight years, were things ever all that much better? You seem to forget that the United States was founded upon the systematic genocide of the Native American peoples and the systematic enslavement and disenfranchisement of Africans. Was this not as terrible as the current situation, if not more so?

In my opinion the human condition does not appear to have changed much either for better or for worse in the past several thousand years. We have shiner and deadlier toys, but aside from that I wouldn't say we're any better or any worse than our forebearers. And as Thomas suggests, the responsibility for "changing the world" begins with one's self. This much has not changed, and I somehow doubt it will change regardless of what historical permutations we go through in this upcoming century.

Schopenhauer put it well when, in his typically crotchety fashion, he urged us to read not The Times (http://www.nytimes.com/) but the Eternities. I try to keep this in mind when I get overly caught up in current events.

[MultipleTentacles]

I think Chan Tiger and Thomas hit the nail on the head. I cannot know for sure, but I am very skeptical that things in the past were ever any better than they are today. Of course Buddhists do talk about "these degenerate times", but I think they're referring to the fact that the Buddha's teachings are fading from the earth, and in many cases transforming into something that is not Buddhist at all. I don't think they're talking about society in general getting worse.

In fact, I think things may be getting slightly better. Democracy, I think, is a significant improvement to monarchy. Books and the internet present significant improvements, because we can now to some extent accurately remember our past--the true teachings of Buddha and Christ and others can be studied in more or less their original form, because we have committed them to books. Before books, whatever was the status quo at any given time was all the knowledge there was. Think of fashion and music trends and see how unstable and intellectually unreliable the status quo is. Books broaden our scope of knowledge and truth, and democracy commits political leaders to be responsive to their subjects to some extent. Some extent is better than no extent.

[Thomas Knierim]

Simply an observation that our country went from friendly, lucrative and safe. To angry, sinking in deficit, and dangerous.

I don't really know what the situation in America is like or was like. I have seen too little of the US to tell. I can speak only for Germany and Thailand.

In Germany, some things have changed for worse, others for better. In my childhood, I had the impression that people had more time for each other. The economy was in steady growth since WWII, social differences between rich and poor were less pronounced, and there was less pressure to perform. The "time is money" idea wasn't quite as common as it is today. On the other hand, today, people are wealthier on average, technology has opened up incredible new possibilities in almost any area of life, and society is more open and pluralistic.

Likewise, in Thailand there were big changes since I arrived 15 years ago. While the environmental situation in Germany has improved during that time, it has worsened in Thailand. Land degradation is still rampant. Everything seems to be much more expensive now than then. Politics were always messy in Thailand, but at least people did not shoot at each other like today. On the other hand, there were great improvements in infrastructure and industry. People are likewise wealthier on average, and this has given rise to a new middle class which previously did not exist. And of course, since technology changes have global effects, the same technological improvements apply to Thailand.

Cheers, Thomas

[MythicalTigress]

Opinions are just that someones view on what a situation is. I was raised to be kind to my elders, respect authority figures such as police, clergy and military. If my opinion offends you or seems to pail in comparision to what your country has suffered that is not my fault, responsibility, problem. Did you read the title of the posting? The Decline Of WESTERN Civilization. Not the decline of already war torn countries. Our problems may seem to pale in comparison to yours. Just come over here and try to live for a little while. The fat, greedy, stupid americans is not just a rumor. This place has gone to hell in a handbasket regardless of whether we have bomings and sniper shootings. Because in fact we do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is that on top of the other. If you are in such a sucky possition. MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MythicalTigress]

Downtown Pueblo was just hit in it's business district. Unknow source. Killed one woman who was just shopping and injured seven others. I live in the middle of Military land. Fort Carson, The Air Force Academy, Norad, and a few others. My home is the target for any hostile country in the world. You take out norad you screw any military communications my country has. So although there are many folks out there who are targets for ground fire and bombings. I am a target for a huge nuclear strike. Any rebutals?

[j000han]

MT:
Opinions are just that someones view on what a situation is.
I was raised to be kind to my elders, respect authority figures such as police, clergy and military.
If my opinion offends you or seems to pail in comparision to what your country has suffered that is not my fault, responsibility, problem.
J000han:
A disclaimer of responsibility for what you offer here I’d say.
MT:
Did you read the title of the posting? The Decline Of WESTERN Civilization. Not the decline of already war torn countries. Our problems may seem to pale in comparison to yours. Just come over here and try to live for a little while. The fat, greedy, stupid americans is not just a rumor. This place has gone to hell in a handbasket regardless of whether we have bomings and sniper shootings. Because in fact we do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is that on top of the other. If you are in such a sucky possition. MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
J000han:
No offense intented, but I’m somewhat puzzled by a suggestion to move from a place that is considered as a [quote: ‘sucky position’ end quote].
The capatalization of the word move,
The underlining of the passage [WESTERN …… MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
and addition of 35 exclaim-signs(!),
could make it an issue that it is not so much your opinion itself as it is the WAY you have expressed it.
Now, here is the crux of the matter which I do not take too lightly,
when speaking and using an all inclusive (we)
We (IPA: /wiː/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)) is the first-person (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person), plural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_number)personal pronoun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun) (subject case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_case)) in Modern English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We))
it is easy being taken not for a personal opinion but at the minimum an opinion.of a representative of a group/collective/company.
Having said that, i think that WESTERN Civilization in this context is best mainly to be considered with regard to the contribution that particulary the American influence(s) has had on Western Civilzation.

One of the rethoric tactics that are often used by speakers(authority figures such as police, clergy and military,politicians, scientists). is to apply this ‘we’ in a clever way to suck the audience into his/her opinion and thus garner support for a particular agenda.
Again and again I’m puzzled that in almost every dicussion there is turned a blind eye to the (mis)?(ab?)use of(we) as that single pronoun.
So..
here is my take on the discussion with regard to decline of (Western) civilization:

but then again:
[ what is the purpose of any Civilization]?
[Is it perhaps to create an infrastructure that provides the development and/or flourishing of
[spiritual??? Individuals]?
[What is a (spiritual???) individual]?
Taeguk:
Does he possession of money and luxary prevent one from being a spiritual individual or a spiritual teacher?
did Osho or his followers ever send aid to people in need?
Noway2zero:
money cannot change/save people,
people have to change/save people.
Schrodinger: ”. Thinking should not interrupt the flow….of MONEY.
[U]spiritual emergency :
A number of people don't have a clue what the word "enlightenment" means and they don't care to know…
[‘Quote: Hugh Milne's book. A powerful and expansive state of cosmic consciousness does exist in humans who achieve it, but the way this condition is described by the religious establishment is an egocentric fiction, contrived by spiritual leaders to control the masses for their own personal gain.’end quote]
J000han:
[Quote from http://home.att.net/~meditation/TES.html (http://home.att.net/~meditation/TES.html)
<Snipped from>:The TES HypothesisAs long as we feel we exist as individuals we suffer because that perception is based on a temporary neurological illusion. This illusion of an individual 'I' is so vulnerable that even sleep destroys it. Every time you go into deep sleep your consciousness temporarily dies and your subjective individual identity dies with it. Get rid of the feeling *I exist,* and you get rid of attachments which create tension, suffering, and feelings of danger. When you focus your consciousness on that which is limited, you become small and vulnerable. When you open your consciousness to experience the whole universe, you become vast, limitless, and without mental anguish. Thus, the art of meditation is the art of inner astronomy.]
There is always the danger of turning a hypothesis into a truth that next becomes
capitilized as Truth, TRuth, TRUth aso, until it is believed to be the ultimate.
The Tess hypothesis(of MR. C.Calder of whom the quoted text) concurs somewhat with my own hypothesis about the OCM(omincreative mind).
However the theory of OCM allows for anything that is(yet) beyond human conceptual capablities and thus, an adspirant enquirer must not disregard too lightly a priori any theory that attempts and/or claims to either prove or disprove any form of reincarnation.as accurate.
In the light of the discoveries in the field of ie. cellbiology, DNA, particle fysics, astronomy
the Law of Karma might also be needed to be viewed in a different light but that’s were the
Big View comes in or…..?????