Santa Claus

[the_aphid]

Believers Beware! Santa Claus is not real!

My introductory philosophy professor related the encouraged belief in Santa Claus to the general belief in (a) God, which is similarly encouraged by our parents.

Is this readily engaged deception (within Christian/Western cultures) understandable? Forgivable? Is there anything to be gained in encouraging the belief in Father Christmas? Is there anything to be lost?

I personally hold no ill will with my parents for subjecting me to the childhood fascination, understanding now that it was simply something that they were subjected to as children by their parents, and so on...

The deception controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus#Deception_controversy) is, in my humble opinion, an interesting topic. And I am curious to hear from others. Those who were never encouraged to believe in the mythical figure, those who were, and how they responded to it. I honestly cannot remember any specific moment in which I learned of the non-existence of Santa...as far as I can recall, my belief simply faded as my scrutiny grew with 'maturity'.

[MidnightSun]

Well it actually is real, so...

[sonrisa]

shouldn't we be discussing this in December? :xmas:

I remember when some kids at school told me Santa wasn't real. I argued of course he was, & when I got home I told my Mom about those stupid kids at school. Then she told me the truth. Talk about feeling had! I remember not liking being lied to like that. And if she lied about that, what else was she lying about?

fortunately her little deception didn't dampen my love for Christmas. To this day I love Christmas, except for the cold & Santa. St Nicholas, rest his soul, I'm cool with becuz he was real, but not that fraud Santa. I don't think kids should be lied to like that. Besides, there's plenty of real things about Christmas for them to get excited about. Parents don't need to lie to them about Santa.

[schrodinger]

Hey, if the Guru in Lithuania says Santa is real, that’s good enough for me! And what about all those NORAD radar trackings? At least no one has ever gone to war over Santa, not yet anyway.

[aviatrix]

I was doing just fine until I came across this thread. How could you all post for all the world to see that there's no Santa Claus. I'm devastated, I had no idea anyone even considered that he doesn't exist. At least, according to this, the decision is split. I suppose the next thing you'll say is that there's no Easter Bunny, or Tooth Fairy. Oh no, no, no! Oh please don't tell me anymore fibs. Shame on you! :reallysad:
Um, by the way, does this mean there's no Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer?:cry:

[Patheya]

:cry::cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :reallysad: :reallysad: :reallysad:

[Trevor]

Believers Beware! Santa Claus is not real!

My introductory philosophy professor related the encouraged belief in Santa Claus to the general belief in (a) God, which is similarly encouraged by our parents.

Is this readily engaged deception (within Christian/Western cultures) understandable? Forgivable? Is there anything to be gained in encouraging the belief in Father Christmas? Is there anything to be lost?

I personally hold no ill will with my parents for subjecting me to the childhood fascination, understanding now that it was simply something that they were subjected to as children by their parents, and so on...

The deception controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus#Deception_controversy) is, in my humble opinion, an interesting topic. And I am curious to hear from others. Those who were never encouraged to believe in the mythical figure, those who were, and how they responded to it. I honestly cannot remember any specific moment in which I learned of the non-existence of Santa...as far as I can recall, my belief simply faded as my scrutiny grew with 'maturity'.

Well it's now December, and I believed in Santa until I was 8.
From my understanding there was a Saint Nicholas who in Holland is known as Sinter Klaus.
I think personally that maybe because he wore a long, flowing white beard that the general public have merged the "look" of Zeus and Sinter Klaus, and since the Christians (knowingly or unknowingly) worship the thought of Zeus even though they refer to Yahweh as having the same long white beard who throws lightning bolts from clouds at whoever he dislikes that there is a lot of cross cultural merging going on.

[Trevor]

Ok, I just typed in Sinter Claus and I stand corrected according to this website: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/4173/santa.htm

Zeus, Thor. Pretty close.

Oh, and the Dutch were the original colonizers of New Amsterdamn, which is now referred to as New York. Look it up. Harlem was originally name Haarlem, a very Dutch name.

This might help also: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=23

[scameter]

I've heard the comparison with belief in Santa to belief in God, which I think is unfortunate. Santa is just a little pleasant idea for kids to believe to make them feel good. God is a very developed idea that unfortunately is untrue, very unfortunately to me. They are quite different.

[the_aphid]

I've heard the comparison with belief in Santa to belief in God, which I think is unfortunate. Santa is just a little pleasant idea for kids to believe to make them feel good. God is a very developed idea that unfortunately is untrue, very unfortunately to me. They are quite different.Were you not told as a child that Santa has a list, and that he checks it twice. You were encouraged to be nice, and not naughty, if you wanted to be rewarded with gifts. I think there are a number of parallels between belief in Santa Claus and belief in a higher power, such as God.

[Flux]

This brings up a rather entertaining story. I stopped believing in Santa Clause somewhere around kindergarten, and it made no difference to me. My parents balked at the notion that their fun was over already, however, and proceeded to weave a tale to my sister and I about a secret staircase in some undisclosed location in our house.

This, of course, got my curiosity, but over the years, whenever I asked, they would sharply say "I don't want to talk about it!". It was their steadfast silence that caused me to continue to believe them until I was 17. Heck, I think that my sister still beleive's our house has a secret staircase in it somewhere, and she's a senior in highschool. How's that for creative parental deception?

[scameter]

To Aphid: alot of the reason for some of the parallels is because santa claus was supposedly based in an old Christian saint, and has Christian elements to it, however inaccurate they may be. But, like I said before, I think they are very different cases.

[the_aphid]

alot of the reason for some of the parallels is because santa claus was supposedly based in an old Christian saint, and has Christian elements to it, however inaccurate they may be. But, like I said before, I think they are very different cases.Perhaps you could elaborate on how different they are. On what differentiates belief in God and belief in Santa?

The way I see it, the only difference between the two is that the deceiving parents (often) believe in God, and know Santa does not exist. You say Santa is just a little pleasant idea that makes them feel good, but I feel it is more of a way to bribe children into behaving nicely.

Obviously it is not as extreme as belief in a higher power, judging your actions and either granting you with eternal bliss in heaven, or an eternity in hell-fire, but to a child who really desires a new toy the anticipation/fear of receiving it or not can be nearly identical.

Children write letters to Santa requesting that certain wishes be granted, not unlike the way people pray to God that their wishes be granted. In fact belief in Santa seems even more believable than God to a child, because you take the kids to the mall and that actually get to see Santa Claus, in the flesh, and sit on his knee and ask for their presents. Can you imagine a person portraying God in a bustling shopping center so that people can kneel before him and pray for mercy, compassion, forgiveness, etc? :lol:

Basically, I think that there are a lot more similarities between the two than there are differences, and the few differences there are are rather trivial.

[aviatrix]

This brings up a rather entertaining story. I stopped believing in Santa Clause somewhere around kindergarten, and it made no difference to me. My parents balked at the notion that their fun was over already, however, and proceeded to weave a tale to my sister and I about a secret staircase in some undisclosed location in our house.

This, of course, got my curiosity, but over the years, whenever I asked, they would sharply say "I don't want to talk about it!". It was their steadfast silence that caused me to continue to believe them until I was 17. Heck, I think that my sister still beleive's our house has a secret staircase in it somewhere, and she's a senior in highschool. How's that for creative parental deception?

Flux, I really love this story! What made you stop believing at 17? Are you quite sure there is no secret staircase? Seriously, could there actually be one? Maybe your parents didn't want to talk about it because they were afraid you or your sister might find it?
Maybe an itty bitty teeny weeny mickey and minnie mouse staircase. That would make it true!

( I can hear Sonrisa now.... "Aviatrix, what are you smoking??") :uhoh: :goodlaugh::uhoh:

[sonrisa]

:hahaha: :smoke: :xmas:

[scameter]

I think that the difference between belief in Santa Claus and God, speaking specifically about the Christian God here since he is connected to Christmas, has a few points. For one, Santa Claus is not believed in by any sane adult, and is told to children for the sole motivation of making them feel good. On the other hand, God is believed to be true and to exist by people of all ages and cultures, and not only to feel good but also for intellectual and cultural motivations. For two, Santa Claus has no real historical basis, except for the legend of the mythologizing of Saint Nicholas, whether that is true or not. On the other hand, God is recounted by Christians on the evidence of the Bible as having actually done things in the past, especially Jesus, which they place heavy faith on because of his possible historicity. For three and lastly, Santa Claus has no real spiritual, afterlife, or other supernatural context, while God is a spirit as the Bible says, will do many things in the afterlife and far future, and has a supernatural context with his angels, heaven, etc. Santa Claus is actually more like the American version of karma than God, giving good to good and bad to bad and always watching every single little movement we make, mental or otherwise, although Santa Claus is far removed, I think, from Asian ideas about karma.

[Chan Tiger]

The way I see it, the only difference between the two is that the deceiving parents (often) believe in God, and know Santa does not exist. You say Santa is just a little pleasant idea that makes them feel good, but I feel it is more of a way to bribe children into behaving nicely.

Obviously it is not as extreme as belief in a higher power, judging your actions and either granting you with eternal bliss in heaven, or an eternity in hell-fire, but to a child who really desires a new toy the anticipation/fear of receiving it or not can be nearly identical.


For people who worship God out of fear of punishment or desire for reward, they may be similiar, but not all believers worship for these reasons.

I think you are trivializing theism to the point of attacking a straw man, although I certainly grant there are many people out there who believe for these reasons.

[the_aphid]

I think you are trivializing theism to the point of attacking a straw man, although I certainly grant there are many people out there who believe for these reasons.Fair enough. I suppose I should have clarified that to a child the differences are negligible. To adults, who know Santa Claus is fictional, belief in him is far different than any form of theism. But in the eyes of a young, innocent child...

[kris]

I grew up in India, I am not Christian, so never did believe in Santa. But my daughter was born in US, grew up here. Naturally, she started believing in Santa as all her companions did. I had to take her to mall every Christmas to take her photo with Santa and so on. Then sometime when she was in second or third grade she found out the truth about Santa from her companions. I had no role to play in any of this. I just went through the motions.

[nowshining]

The Truth - Santa Claus the Great Deceiver (http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/santa.html)

That link there Will let you know the Truth and Remember If one does NOT walk in the commandments with God they are NOT of God - Not everyone in this world who say they are is who the yare - know them by their fruts - ie: their ways.. :)

[scameter]

True, though the commandments of the OT are not really valid to modern Christians anymore, as in we are not punished by violating them. We are punished by not having faith and doing the sacraments Jesus gave with faith, and being a good person by following conscience. The OT law is good to follow as a faithful Christian, but we are not punished by it anymore.

[Thomas Knierim]

Were you not told as a child that Santa has a list, and that he checks it twice. You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town
He's making a list
And checking it twice;
Gonna find out Who's naughty and nice
Santa Claus is coming to town
He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake!
O! You better watch out!
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town
Santa Claus is coming to town

I really like this song. It has a natural swing to it and makes an excellent Jazz tune. Here are my X-mas Jazz favourites:

Little Bebop Drummer Boy - The Jazz Spirit Of Christmas (http://www.amazon.com/The-Jazz-Spirit-Of-Christmas/dp/B000QZUSH4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1230266823&sr=8-1) - by The Dynamic Les DeMerle Band
Once in Royal David's City - The Adventures in Jazz Orchestra Celebrates Christmas (http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Jazz-Orchestra-Celebrates-Christmas/dp/B00005QEH0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1230266898&sr=8-1) - by Ted Blumenthal
Winter Wonder Land - December (http://www.amazon.com/December-Chris-Botti/dp/B000I0QKD8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1230266950&sr=1-1) - by Chris Botti
O Tannenbaum - A Night Before Christmas (http://www.amazon.com/A-Night-Before-Christmas/dp/B001GDRF80/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1230267038&sr=8-1) - by Spyro Gyra
Carol of The Bells - Christmas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GGZCT6/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1230267082&sr=8-1) - by Al Jarreau
Santa Claus is Coming To Town - Christmas Songs (http://www.amazon.com/Diana-Krall-Christmas-Songs/dp/B000B7BRMM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1230267167&sr=8-1) - by Diana Krall

You can preview these songs on Amazon. Have a listen if you like Jazz and got a minute to spare.

A jazzy merry Christmas to everyone!

Cheers, Thomas