St. Patrick's Day in the US

[scameter]

I was considering the upcoming holiday, or at least I think it's upcoming, of St. Patrick's Day in the US. Why is it still celebrated? It seems extremely Irish and possibly also Catholic, so why would the US, which is specifically neither of those, still celebrate it? It seems to me to be just another excuse to drink, like Marde Gras (sp). :p

[Michael]

The date is March 17th. The whole thing is truly shambolic, but their are sound commercial realities unlying it and, let's face it, when else would you get the chance to drink green beer - which not something we would ever dream of going here, not even for the tourists (I think).

scam, you'll find answers to most of your questions on the US Census site below.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/006328.

html

One thing it won't tell you is that St Patrick pre-dated the reformation by almost one thousand years. He is recognised by both Catholics and Protestants - mind you, I suspect some protestant sects might have a bit of a problem chewing on that one!

Slainte a bhic

[sonrisa]

(St. Patrick's Day) seems to me to be just another excuse to drink, like Marde Gras (sp). :p

-- don't forget the parades & throwing things :D Infact I once heard St Patrick's Day called the Green Mardi Gras

you don't have to be Irish to celebrate St Patrick's Day. Here in Cincy everybody celebrates it. You just haven't lived til you've had green lasagne or green spaghetti, or green egg drop soup! The bar around the corner from my house, in addition to serving green beer, has it's annual green breakfast on 3/17. They have green eggs- usually scrambled (but no ham, sorry) green biscuits & green gravy, green grits, green pancakes with green butter. Last year they served up a green quiche.

Last Sunday-2/17- was the traditional Stealing of the Statue. That's when a statue of St Patrick disappears from a local church. It will reappear next month heading up the St Patrick's Parade.

ps to Michael, I don't think that link works

[Michael]

try the US census bureau at(I've tried and it works - think the htm; slipped in the previous):

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/009465.html

[sonrisa]

thanx Michael, that was most interesting

[scameter]

Michael:One thing it won't tell you is that St Patrick pre-dated the reformation by almost one thousand years. He is recognised by both Catholics and Protestants - mind you, I suspect some protestant sects might have a bit of a problem chewing on that one!

Indeed. He was actually long before the Reformation, the first missionary to Ireland.

[Trevor]

Michael:One thing it won't tell you is that St Patrick pre-dated the reformation by almost one thousand years. He is recognised by both Catholics and Protestants - mind you, I suspect some protestant sects might have a bit of a problem chewing on that one!

Indeed. He was actually long before the Reformation, the first missionary to Ireland.

I saw a two part documentary on St. Patrick last year and was surprised to find out that he was actually an English slave, who after he had been freed decided to return to Ireland as a missionary.
I also found it surprising that because of the fall of the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages/ Plague that followed in mainland Europe that without the monks in Ireland and the treasure of books and knowledge in the monastaries, western civilization would have been kaput. We never learned anything about this in the public school system and yet it is a key piece of information. Education is selective.
Happy St. Patrick's Day!

[Michael]

Much as it is nice to bask in the idea of the Irish being the bringers of light, there were many other aspects to that period which, it is now argued, were not the dark ages at all. Irish monks did spread the light of Christianity, but the main influx of knowledge, in terms of medicine, math, engineering, philosophy and so forth, came from the Arab world. Their libraries preserved much of the old world's knowledge and served to give birth to the renaissance. The crusaders. encounters with the Muslim world also served to bring to Europe many of the comforts which we today associate with civilisation.

[Taeguk]

It seems to me to be just another excuse to drink, like Marde Gras (sp). :p

Depends on who you are and where you're from. For many, it is just an excuse to have a good time (and there's nothing wrong that!). For others, it has a lot of cultural significance. The Irish have a long history, and they have much to remember---triumphs and struggles alike.

[scameter]

Micheal:encounters with the Muslim world also served to bring to Europe many of the comforts which we today associate with civilisation.

I thought Rome, which was European, and Greece before it, were the backbone of Western civilization, which the church preserved? The Muslims were civilized, but Europe wasn't only barbarism after Rome, much less during and before it.

Taeguk: Depends on who you are and where you're from.

:rofl:

[Taeguk]

I thought Rome, which was European, and Greece before it, were the backbone of Western civilization, which the church preserved? The Muslims were civilized, but Europe wasn't only barbarism after Rome, much less during and before it.

The Church itself relied quite heavily on Islamic philosophy and science during the medival period. Educated monks didn't only know Latin and Greek; many of them learned Arabic as well since they had to work from Arab and Persian texts. As it was many Greco-Roman texts were destroyed by Norse pirates ("Vikings") and preserved in various Arab and Persian institutions. It's no exaggeration to say that without the Islamic world Europe may not have emerged as the birth of the various world powers in the post-medieval period.


Depends on who you are and where you're from.
:rofl:

Don't know why that's so funny, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[Michael]

Micheal:encounters with the Muslim world also served to bring to Europe many of the comforts which we today associate with civilisation.

I thought Rome, which was European, and Greece before it, were the backbone of Western civilization, which the church preserved? The Muslims were civilized, but Europe wasn't only barbarism after Rome, much less during and before it.



The comforts I was referring to were cushions, curtains, sweets, carpets, standards of personal hygiene and the like. The things that make day-to-day life a little easier. Their knowledge of engineering and hydraulics also served to make our lives easier in more practical ways.

It is interesting to note that Saladin, leader of the Muslim world at a crucial period in the crusades, proved himself to be a man of far greater honour, integrity and magnaminity than his European counterparts. He was a fascinating man, well worth reading up on.

scam, before Rome Carthage was the great trading and civilising influence in the Mediterranean region. Carthage, an offshoot of the Pheonicians, that other great middle Eastern maritine trading culture (1200 - 900 BC), was on the coast of Africa , roughly where Tunis is today. There is no remaining trace of Carthage because the Romans wiped the city out, slaughered its inhabitants then tore the city down so that not one stone stood upon another. Before Rome Europe was just a bunch of tribes hacking each other to bits. Rome just got to be the biggest hacker.

[christiangarza2287]

I was considering the upcoming holiday, or at least I think it's upcoming, of St. Patrick's Day in the US. Why is it still celebrated? It seems extremely Irish and possibly also Catholic, so why would the US, which is specifically neither of those, still celebrate it? It seems to me to be just another excuse to drink, like Marde Gras (sp). :p

the same reason for christimas, valentine's, ect... to rake in money.
i would imagine.

[scameter]

Taeguk:Don't know why that's so funny, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

:lol: I certainly did, and thank you.

Micheal:Before Rome Europe was just a bunch of tribes hacking each other to bits. Rome just got to be the biggest hacker.

Wow, I didn't realize that Greece was entirely violent, or that Phonecians, Muslims, etc., were never violent. I suppose all civilization did come from them.

Micheal:It is interesting to note that Saladin, leader of the Muslim world at a crucial period in the crusades, proved himself to be a man of far greater honour, integrity and magnaminity than his European counterparts.

I'm sure he was. The leader of a nation of murderers, like the European leaders, and the Asian leaders, and the Roman, Greek, Phonecians, American, leaders. Name one nation not founded and kept alive on killing and I'll agree that civilization came to Europe from the Middle East.

[Michael]

Again scam, you choose to misrepresent what I said. That is your choice.

[Michael]

scam, you said:

Name one nation not founded and kept alive on killing and I'll agree that civilization came to Europe from the Middle East.

The Phoenicians. That nation survived and prospered primarily by their trading and maritime abilities. With trading nations it pays not to go slaughtering customers. Carthage, not a nation, but a powerful and influential city state was also based on trade rather than war.

The histories of both Greece and Rome are blood-drenched sagas. Their growth
was furrowed by their blades. It later served Christianity to give Rome a good press, it basked in the reflected light of an empire in whose empty husk they lived.

This is not to say that Greece and Rome weren't 'civilized'.

It is not my opinion that the light of civilization in Europe was primarily rekindled from the Muslim world. It's an historical fact. Nothing you or I or anyone else can say can change that. The same applies to the qualities of Saladin. This is a fact admitted by the crusaders themselves and the historians of the time.

My whole point is that we in Europe, and more so you in America, have a very Euro-centric view of the world in terms of its cultural development.

History has much to teach the mind that seeks to understand.

[Michael]

Taeguk, Norse pirates sacked an awful lot of Christian monstaries, but you can't give them all the blame. As you say, they were pirates - waterways and rivers. Never too far inland. Look also to the Gauls who sacked Rome in 366 and later , in 410, the Visigothes.

Many more 'barbarian (non Latin speaking) peoples such as the Hun, Jutes, Angles, Saxon and Ostrogoths all played their parts in the fall. It's a complex story and what I have said here is a vast oversimplification.

On the good side, for example, is that the fall of Rome led to the end of slavery in Europe. There is much here for the open mind to reflect on. What is civilization?
Who are those who promote it? What are the results?

[scameter]

You're right.