Psyche Departed / Banned

[Thomas Knierim]

Psyche has decided to leave us.

Obviously, this had to do with the discussion about ad hominem and the recent "End of Religion" discussion with Vicente that was closed by her. She was criticised for being partial in that decision.

Unfortunately Psyche -upon her departure- has decided to vandalise the board, delete all of her own messages and possibly also 2 threads which I cannot find anymore. Because of this (and because it's a case of recurrence), Psyche is banned from thebigview.com for lifetime.

There's a moderator position vacant now. :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

Thomas, are you sure that it was just 2 threads? have you noticed our friend Aphid, who posts pretty regular, is down to 2 posts? And I can't find any of the threads he started. I think she deleted more than 2 threads.

I don't like to see anybody banned, but in this case I must agree with it. She shoulldn't have deleted another person's posts, much less whole threads. We need users like Psyche about as much as we need users like the Greek.

[Thomas Knierim]

Yes Sonrisa, unfortunately you are right. She has also deleted the_aphid's messages. As she told me this morning in a private message, this was to "teach him a lesson". She was self-righteous and smug about it. Now unfortunately, the software that runs this forum is not a "Wiki", which means it is not designed to deal with vandalism.

I still don't understand why it escalated to this point, but Psyche (or Aurora) has abused her moderator privileges big time. She has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted as well as a few other things that I don't want to mention in public.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

in teaching Aphid a "lesson", she also deleted the messages of us who were posting in his threads. Not very fair of her towards the rest of us.

I'm surprised & saddened that she would do this to us who had nothing to do with her quarrel with Aphid. Good riddance to her. All the same, I enjoyed reading Psyche's posts, so I hope the door didn't smack her butt on the way out.

[Ryker]

:shakehead: I do not understand this at all.

It seemed that she had been acting strangely for a few months now (and I wasn't the only one who had noticed). It seems so out-of-character for her to do something like this. I mean, that's pretty drastic. :(

Nonetheless, perhaps it is better for her?

[the_aphid]

in teaching Aphid a "lesson", she also deleted the messages of us who were posting in his threads. Not very fair of her towards the rest of us.

I'm surprised & saddened that she would do this to us who had nothing to do with her quarrel with Aphid. Good riddance to her. All the same, I enjoyed reading Psyche's posts, so I hope the door didn't smack her butt on the way out.
I will apologize to those that lost their messages in the 'crossfire', let it be said however that even though her and I were in a disagreement, it never warranted resetting my status and deleting my posts. All of our 'heated' disagreements were kept to private messages, so it is clear that she was not 'teaching a lesson' but rather just being vindictive, plain and simple.

And Ryker, I am shaking my head like you as well. :shakehead: I honestly, and in my opinion legitimately, expressed my disagreements with her behavior, but did not ever expect that psyche would resort to these means, I honestly thought were could have resolved this with words and patience.

Nonetheless, I do feel bad that my dispute with her has now affected others at TBV, so for that I am sorry...I should've been saving the posts of mine that I felt were well written, guess I never thought a moderator would become so spiteful and delete them all :think:

[Taeguk]

I still don't understand why it escalated to this point, but Psyche (or Aurora) has abused her moderator privileges big time. She has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted as well as a few other things that I don't want to mention in public.


Now that is just petty....:shakehead:

the aphid, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for. You kept a very cool head throughout your disagreement, you were perfectly reasonable. If anything, she should be the one to apologize to you and to all of us for removing your posts.

I agree with Ryker, this seems out of character for Aurora, but then again I suppose I don't know her very well.

[Ryker]

I agree with Ryker, this seems out of character for Aurora, but then again I suppose I don't know her very well.Hmm, I guess that's true. It is hard to really get to know someone extremely well over the Internet, but still...

I guess that's what we all get for having the expectation that she shouldn't respond in this manner, eh? :lol:

Has anyone checked the IP address used while she did this? Since it does seem so out-of-character perhaps someone else was using her account?

Who's going to fill her moderator position?

[Taeguk]

Hmm, I guess that's true. It is hard to really get to know someone extremely well over the Internet, but still...

I guess that's what we all get for having the expectation that she shouldn't respond in this manner, eh? :lol:

:lol: Both very good points, Ryker :)

Has anyone checked the IP address used while she did this? Since it does seem so out-of-character perhaps someone else was using her account?

Who's going to fill her moderator position?

I'm not sure if I have access to her IP address if she's deleted all of her posts, and in any case I'm reasonably confident that this wasn't somebody else using her account. I think she just turned out not to be like the person we thought she was.

As far as moderators go, I think anybody that is interested should let Thomas know----there's no rush, since this new board tech has us pretty much impervious to spam.

[sonrisa]

1st of all, to Aphid- I did not mean to imply that you are responsible for our posts being deleted. In my 1st post in this thread I stated that Psyche shouldn't have deleted your posts or your threads. You shouldn't -& don't- need to save anything, they shouldn't have been deleted in the 1st place. It was only after I posted that 1st message that I realized that in deleting your threads, Psyche also deleted the posts of everybody who had posted in them.

to Ryker- Psyche has deleted her posts before (one thread in particular comes to mind that she & I had been posting in, & after she deleted her posts it looked like I was talking to myself :blink: ) & she once bragged that she had deleted all her posts from some other forum when she left there as well, so I wouldn't say this is out of character for her. What surprised me is that she would delete posts & threads that were not her own, but I guess if she was in the middle of a hissy fit..... *shrug*

if she meant to teach Aphid a "lesson" about ad hominems, I do have to say what she did to him could be considered the ultimate ad homimem. But not very classy of her. And for all her talk about enlightenment, it wasn't very enlightened either. In fact I would say that it was viscious & petty.

I seem to remember her extolling the 1st Amendment once or twice, & she didn't do very well by that either.
Hell she downright trampled it, & that's what really sticks in my craw. I can't abide that sort of thing!

that b*tch! :angry:

she needs to be gone

like I said before, good riddance to her!

[MidnightSun]

So much for intresting person...

Dam, I did a lot of terrible things, but some women surprises me still.

[sonrisa]

what terrible things have you done MidSun?

[MidnightSun]

PM me if you dear :D

[Vlatko]

I think that this situation was totally predictable. There was to much antagonistic behavior in this forum and one day it had to burst. And probably she will not be the only one who will explode.

People here must try to be more compassionate and forgiving. No matter how one wrong is we have to try to respond or post with polite manner trying not to patronize or hurt others people feelings.

[sahyo]

I People here must try to be more compassionate and forgiving. No matter how one wrong is we have to try to respond or post with polite manner trying not to patronize or hurt others people feelings.

if fear not present, no one to react as if hurt

humans cannot learn "compassionate and forgiving"

"try" cannot compassion

if fear present, no compassion

if compassion, then nothing to forgive

[Vlatko]

if fear not present, no one to react as if hurt

:) Agree.

humans cannot learn "compassionate and forgiving"

They really can't because if they try to learn they will only suppress old things deep down inside and one day they will have to come out. Real compassion and forgiveness are only natural byproducts of enlighten state of being.

"try" cannot compassion

:) Yes, trying to be compassionate is impotent. If compassion don't comes naturally by itself it will be artificial like a plastic plant.

if fear present, no compassion

:) Agree.

if compassion, then nothing to forgive

:) And again if you are really compassionate there is nothing to forgive because you don't perceive things as good and bad and nobody can do harm to you thus you will have no need to forgive. Everything is forgiven in advance.

Cheers, Vlatko

[sahyo]

thanks for explaining clearly, vlatko

They really can't because if they try to learn they will only suppress old things deep down inside and one day they will have to come out.

:) yes

If compassion don't comes naturally by itself it will be artificial like a plastic plant.

:) yes

:) And again if you are really compassionate there is nothing to forgive because you don't perceive things as good and bad and nobody can do harm to you thus you will have no need to forgive.

:) yes

Everything is forgiven in advance.

what 'advance' when "if you are really compassionate there is nothing to forgive"?

[Thomas Knierim]

Vlatko: I think that this situation was totally predictable. There was to much antagonistic behavior in this forum and one day it had to burst. And probably she will not be the only one who will explode.

I don't see it this way. This discussion board is now 6 years old and by comparison it has always been relatively peaceful. You will have no problem to find more unruly and less friendly places; I guarantee you that. :) As a discussion forum where philosophy and politics are the main topics (which are antagonistic by nature) thebigview.com is generally quite tolerant, although there have been a few disruptions lately. Please don't forget that this is an open environment, not a closed group environment. Overall, I think we have an exceptionally cooperative and mature membership and I am glad that we do.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

Vlatko--And probably (Psyche) will not be the only one who will explode.

-- yeah but it was the way she exploded.....

overall, however, I have to agree with Thomas. I have been posting here for 4 years now & am a carry over from 2 older boards. We are a diverse group here & sometimes the discussions get heated, but as a rule, not many people are disruptive. Very rarely dispuptive users have had to be banned, but mostly they just leave on their own. Case in point- has anybody heard from IamJoseph lately?

[Smurf]

Case in point- has anybody heard from IamJoseph lately?

The wandering prophet :P

It's philosophical discussion, it's about what we believe and consequentially who we are. It's tough to maintain a distinction between conceptual arguments and those that might harm self-image. I think...

[sonrisa]

you know Smurfie, I'm reminded of the time you & Psyche got into it, & you announced you were leaving TBV. Then Psyche said that wasn't necessary becuz she was leaving, & then you 2 got into it over who was gonna leave. Thankfully, that all blew over & Psyche joked that anybody leaving TBV had to fill out a notarized form in triplicate. Well, I guess this incedent was her notarized form- in triplicate :D

[the_aphid]

Please don't forget that this is an open environment, not a closed group environment. Overall, I think we have an exceptionally cooperative and mature membership and I am glad that we do.

Cheers, Thomas
I will agree with this. An open forum will inevitably welcome personalized opinions, and when those opinions are about the most controversial topics imaginable, Religion, Politics, Ethics, etc, it is also inevitable that the discussions will become heated. We are all human, and as a result it is natural to feel like our opinions make up who we are, and then when someone disagrees and begins pointing out what they feel are inaccuracies or weak points in their argument, they feel as though they are being personally attacked. This is the thing that everyone should practice diligently, trying not to take offense. Who you are is not the opinions you have at this 'point in time', anyone who has ever admitted to being wrong about anything before can testify to that. At some point in time, you might have been certain about something, only to be proven wrong when eventually something sinks through your skull.

Here's an example:
Immediately after September 11th, my friend and I got into an argument about the attacks. He essentially stood by the Taliban, claiming that they were playing 'fair game' and were by no means 'cowards' like they were being labeled. He began quoting the Art of War, etc, in an attempt to make a point. I said something along the lines of 'But the United States doesn't just randomly attack innocent people, sure there is always collateral damage in war, but the wouldn't for example, bomb a school filled with children and women, or some sort of institution or media outlet' :duh:

I learned in time that I was wrong. Not necessarily about the 'cowardice' of the terrorists, that I am still a little torn on, but I can no longer logically defend the U.S. with the argument, 'well at least they don't sink to that level'. I had no other choice but to bring up the point with my friend again, and admit that I was wrong, that I was ignorant, and that I was now more inclined to agree with him. This is when I began to realize that the opinions don't determine who you are, but rather who you are determines which opinions you hold, and until you have experienced everything in order to fully form a concrete system of opinions, these things are in constant flux. Your opinions will come and go, change, alter, etc, and some might not, there are some opinions which will stand the test of time. The only way to know which opinions those are is to subject them to the bombardment of other opinions.

[sahyo]

when is said 'i'm humble', 'my humility', 'i humbly say...', then not humbling

but when sayingI was wrong
then:




bowing






:dancing:

[Taeguk]

The only way to know which opinions those are is to subject them to the bombardment of other opinions.

Reminds me of a portion of Alan Watts' essay, The Nature of Consciousness:

You see, I'm a philosopher, and I'm not going to argue very much, because if you don't argue with me, I don't know what I think. So if we argue, I say 'Thank you,' because owing to the courtesy of your taking a different point of view, I understand what I mean. So I can't get rid of you.

And I think sayho brings up a very important point; not only does true humility not announce itself, but in the context of discussion admitting that you are wrong is true humility.... :thumbsup:

[sahyo]

not only does true humility not announce itself, but in the context of discussion admitting that you are wrong is true humility

thanks wording clearly :)

[Squirrels Gone Wild]

Here's an example:
Immediately after September 11th, my friend and I got into an argument about the attacks. He essentially stood by the Taliban, claiming that they were playing 'fair game' and were by no means 'cowards' like they were being labeled. He began quoting the Art of War, etc, in an attempt to make a point. I said something along the lines of 'But the United States doesn't just randomly attack innocent people, sure there is always collateral damage in war, but the wouldn't for example, bomb a school filled with children and women, or some sort of institution or media outlet' :duh:

I learned in time that I was wrong. Not necessarily about the 'cowardice' of the terrorists, that I am still a little torn on, but I can no longer logically defend the U.S. with the argument.

I hate to say it but you are confusing two different arguments here, and are wrong on both fronts.

From a purely tactical military standpoint, and from an eastern way of thinking (Sun Tzu), the Taliban pulled off a successful military operation--against civilians. From a strategic standpoint what they did was a fatal mistake! This mistake brought about their swift destruction. So we have Sun Tzu applied to terrorism inflicted on civilians, not a military entity. Pearl Harbor was an example of real Sun Tzu military thinking because they attacked military targets. I must stress that the attack of 9/11 did nothing to affect the U.S. military--other than piss them off.

They attacked a soft spot rather than taking on the enemy head on, a common Sun Tzu "Art of War" strategy, again the issue is that they attacked civilians. No one in their right mind would take on the U.S. head-to-head because they would lose, and doing so would be following a western form of military philosophy. Sun Tzu did not teach slaughting innocent civilians either way, since this does not deplete the opponents military strength (but redoubles its effort as we saw). Sun Tzu taught attacking weak points of the opponents military, not its civilians. What the taliban did fits in with what we call terrorism.

From a humanitarian standpoint what the Taliban did was wrong, slaughting innocent men, women and children for no other affect but to establish terror, as there was no chance that this single attack would ever bring about an instant victory. You were right in saying that the U.S. does not stoop to this level because we don't! People would say "The U.S. were terrorists when we fought the English to establish the U.S." Wrong! We fought the English military...the English were the ones that killed innocents to establish terror.

Your friend, who was obviously confused, also has you confused as well because what the taliban did was not right from a strategic military standpoint or from a humanitarian standpoint.

If you support what the Taliban did, then I've certainly lost all respect for you.

[the_aphid]

I hate to say it but you are confusing two different arguements here, and are wrong on both fronts.
Well, whatever, this is really beside the point. The actual example of the argument wasn't the point of the example, but rather I was just trying to show how opinions change, so therefore you shouldn't take them personally. Can you honestly say you have never been wrong about something?

I'm not going to get into an actual debate about the 'justification of the Taliban's actions', at least not in this thread, and I never said that my friend was entirely right.

If you support what the Taliban did, then I've certainly lost all respect for you.Now you are taking this personally and are misunderstanding me. I do not support what the Taliban did and you obviously have missed the point of the example. My point being that the U.S. is just as dirty, and capable of the very same unethical and unjustifiable atrocities. They kill civilians just like the Taliban. In fact, allow me to repeat the section you quoted me on again, including the part you seemed to have overlooked:
I learned in time that I was wrong. Not necessarily about the 'cowardice' of the terrorists, that I am still a little torn on, but I can no longer logically defend the U.S. with the argument, 'well at least they don't sink to that level'.

[Michael]

Hi psych,

I know you're out there reading this. Sorry you're gone. Sorry you did what you did.
I really appreciated your apprehension of things and know how painful they can be.

While it may be difficult right now that is the challenge that you have called up for yourself . Finally the power rests with you, as it does with all of us. You do have the strength you know.

And while we are alone, we are never alone.

The Mystic Bone




When I was five
They drove me
To hospital
Where they
Skinned me alive,
I survived,
But it never grew again,
Never again grew, my skin,
Never again blinded
That mystic bone
Which sings beneath the flesh.


Namaste,

Michael

[Smurf]

you know Smurfie, I'm reminded of the time you & Psyche got into it, & you announced you were leaving TBV. Then Psyche said that wasn't necessary becuz she was leaving, & then you 2 got into it over who was gonna leave. Thankfully, that all blew over & Psyche joked that anybody leaving TBV had to fill out a notarized form in triplicate. Well, I guess this incedent was her notarized form- in triplicate

:D yes she's a rising tide that one

[sonrisa]

Hey Michael! :D where ya been?

[spiritual_emergency]

The section related to Personality Conflicts (http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/dealingwithtrolls.html) could possibly be relevant in this instance.

It is unfortunate that Psyche chose to take the actions she did. I've been known to erase my own posts from time to time so I can appreciate that she might have chosen to withdraw completely from the situation. Unfortunately, independantly making the decision to erase other members' posts is considered bad form for a moderator.

Aside from that it should be borne in mind that Psyche is no longer a member and neither can she be a member in the future. Some may have enjoyed her posts, some may not have. Clearly, she was well thought of to the extent that she earned moderator status.

As the situation currently stands, Psyche does not have the ability to speak on her own behalf or provide her own explanation for why she made the choices she did. This is something that should be considered in making any "parting shots" of one's own.

[Squirrels Gone Wild]

As the situation currently stands, Psyche does not have the ability to speak on her own behalf or provide her own explanation for why she made the choices she did. This is something that should be considered in making any "parting shots" of one's own.

What fun is a parting shot if the victim can respond?

I hereby heap all negative energy and all bad things on these forums onto psyche, since they are obviously all her fault.

There, now were are cleansed.

:applause:

[bito]

Reacting is indeed a nonrational response, but it is precisely this absence of rational 'thinking-it-through' that can 'breakthrough' the conditioning that is the separate-self-sense. Reacting to the separate-self-sense (sense of being attacked) is the transforming fire.

I have declared myself departed and then returned, three times. :lol:

:beating:

:wallbash:

:reallysad:

:lol:

:love:

:)

Transforming fire, intensity :applause:

[Squirrels Gone Wild]

I have declared myself departed and then returned, three times. :lol:

A slight difference in the case of Psyche, who burned every bridge behind her during her departure.

[bito]

A slight difference in the case of Psyche, who burned every bridge behind her during her departure.

The hotter the fire ... :)

[Smurf]

The more cooked the eggs =P

I agree with Bito, passion, intensity and stout belief for one's ideals is what makes the world go round bahby =D

[sahyo]

when fireing so hot no hotfireing, no reacting

[sahyo]

when fireing so hot no hotfireing, no reacting





http://th106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/RiverIsMyGoddess/icons/th_smiley_gofoom.gif

(poof)










[color=#808080[/white]

[MidnightSun]

Sahyo dude, do you speak so foggy in real too? Coz man... That stuff is foggy guru stuff.

[...]

..sahyo is a woman, Midnight...

[Vlatko]

I don't see it this way. This discussion board is now 6 years old and by comparison it has always been relatively peaceful.

Of course you will not see it that way. You are the owner. You can not see it otherwise.

[the_aphid]

Well, I don't see it that way either. But I've only been here for a matter of months.
;)

[Squirrels Gone Wild]

Of course you will not see it that way. You are the owner. You can not see it otherwise.

Thats sort of unfair I think...

I don't think this is a fairytale land of pink and blue bunnies giving each other eskimo kisses either, but I don't think there is as much angst as there could be given the *extremely* volatile topics on the forums.

[vicente]

Of course you will not see it that way. You are the owner. You can not see it otherwise.

I've been a member here since near the beginning. Probably had twice as many posts before everything was reset in '03.

In my opinion, the lowest level of open-mindedness has been recent. During the first years there was very little ad hominem, if any at all. The debate back then had an aire of integrity, as in The Four Agreements.

BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean.
Avoid using the word to speak against yourself
or to gossip about others. Use the power of your
word to practice impeccability, thus bringing effortless
dissolution to our old limiting agreements.


DON’T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY
Nothing others do is because of you. What
others say and do is a projection of their own reality,
their own dream. When you are immune to the
opinions of others, you won’t be the victim of
needless suffering. Freedom becomes realized when
we take nothing personally.


DON’T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS
We often make assumptions when we think we know what others
mean, or when we think they know what we mean. Find the
courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama.
With just this one agreement, you can completely
transform your life.


ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST
Your best is going to change from moment to moment;
It will be different when you are healthy as opposed
to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best,
and you will avoid self-judgement, self-abuse, and regret.



The Four Agreements, which were distilled from the traditional wisdom of the Toltecs by Don Miguel Ruiz, offers a Code of Conduct to help us experience more Joy, Love and Peace in our lives. To realize these direct experiences requires an inventory of our self-limiting beliefs, which are based on agreements we have made with life. We can transform our beliefs and break our old, self-limiting agreements by practicing these Agreements.

[vicente]

My personal e-mail to Pysche:

Aurora,

I read the bannishment thread they created for you. Some, like Michael, posted in your defense. The sad part was that few, in my opinion, understood the behavior you were reflecting to them,...instead they focused on you rather than understanding the message being presented.

On one hand I'm sad to see you go. Yet, you followed spirit without hesitation, and although that burned some bridges, it allowed you to move into something else.

Currently I'm doing a Shambhala course with Pema Chodron. It's based on the book The Myth of Freedom by Chogyam Trungpa. I feel you would very much appreciate the class,...sort of like being among kindred spirits.

Well, you have e-mail.

Best wishes
Vicente
:)

[sahyo]

The sad part was that few, in my opinion, understood the behavior you were reflecting to them

reflecting mirror doesn't ripple

[Smurf]

I don't see it this way. This discussion board is now 6 years old and by comparison it has always been relatively peaceful.

Love it, so then during the First and Second world wars, you could argue that it was a time of peace "because in comparison, Germany was a fairly peaceful country"