Selflessness & Artistic Expression

[Ryker]

I chose to place this in the philosophy forum because I feel like it pulls from various schools of thought instead of just one in particular, so I assumed a more general forum was appropriate. If this needs to be somewhere else, please feel free to move the topic there.

While browsing around the forums, I saw an interesting discussion about selflessness in which a member (I believe it was Taeguk) said something along the lines of a painter experiencing selflessness while being lost within creating an artwork. (And I believe the example given was a writer having characters essentially "take over".)

This got me to thinking: Isn't this also true of all artistic expression?


For instance, I am a serious music-lover. I think of my five senses, hearing would be one that I would miss the most. For me, sound is universal (even if language isn't), & if there is any kind of semblance of a "God" I would find it in music. Now when listening to music, I normally place myself within the song that I'm listening to - if it's sad, then I suffer with the artist. During the song, I am completely lost within the music & essentially have forgotten my "self".

So my question is: if this is a way in which to experience selflessness, why is singing (and sometimes dancing) sometimes frowned upon (or even considered counter-productive) to spirituality in some ideologies?

[scameter]

Well, generally, selflessness and selfishness are qualities expressed by one's intentions; with art, I suppose, if one intended for the creation to simply be sold for profit or for fame, it would be selfish. But if the artist did it simply for art and beauty, for the expressions of those in his creation without a possessiveness or materialism, then yes it could be selfless. But I don't think anything humans do is totally selfless.

[Taeguk]

Hi!

Ryker, you asked:

So my question is: if this is a way in which to experience selflessness, why is singing (and sometimes dancing) sometimes frowned upon (or even considered counter-productive) to spirituality in some ideologies?

Excellent question!

I think there are a number of reasons. It depends on the ideology!

Sometimes it's because the religion wants to promote austerity, for one reason or another. As I understand it, the more puritan forms of Christianity often prohibit these things (or at least frown on them) because they feel they promote lust, or pride in oneself (instead of faith in God). Certain forms of Islam also do so as well, for similiar reasons!

And, actually, certain Buddhist monks are not technically "supposed" to sing or dance or play music outside of the religious chants and hymns.

Why would Buddhism ban something like this, you might ask?

Because often times such practices can lead to attachment!

In another thread, when I was talking about the idea of "self-lessness" in art, I was refering to the actual process of creating art (or experiencing art! Your description of listening to music, Ryker, is a perfect example :) ). In this, there is "no self". Even if you're a completely selfish, egotistical individual, if you're a truly talented artist your "self" will vanish into the work of art as you produce it. The dancer is one with the dance.

However, many people become addicted to the fame they may get from creating art or performing! The applause, the prestige, the fact that they are so "talented" all goes to the ego! I'm sure everyone's met a very talented artist who also happen to have a collassal ego!

Of course, that doesn't stop a Buddhist monk I happen to know from playing guitar and singing! :lol:

Why?

Because sometimes when we're too overzealous about avoiding attachment, we respond with averrsion---instead of seeking some activity, we shun it! It's just another form of attachment, and it leads to suffering!

Probably the best example of this is the story of the two monks crossing the river:

Two monks were crossing a river when there appeared a well-endowed young woman who wanted help. The younger monk swore on his celibacy and refused. The older monk carried her across the river for a mile, set her down, and continued on his way.

After walking a few miles, the younger monk asked, "Why did you do that? Didn't you break your vows?"

The older monk replied, "You mean helping that woman?"

"Yes!"

The older monk replied: "Oh, I put her down several miles back. Why are you still carrying her?"

Becoming attached to rules is also another form of attachment! :lol: The ideal is to be completely open to what is.

That's why Buddhism is referred to as "The Middle Way"---it's not supposed to be too hung up on austerity, fasting, weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it's not an "anything goes" hedonism, either!

Although, it seems to me that this applies to authentic spirituality all across the board, not only Buddhism! :thumbsup:

scameter, you wrote:

But I don't think anything humans do is totally selfless.

Why? :)

[Noway2Zero]

The older monk replied: "Oh, I put her down several miles back. Why are you still carrying her?"


:lol:

[scameter]

Why?

Because humans are physical. My elaboration of this was in the earlier post. :)

[Zoid]

Great story, Taeguk! :thumbsup:

It also relates to the moment-to-moment approach, which I've started trying to adopt to an even greater degree... It's surprising, when you are really conscious of "when" your mind is, just how much it is not in the present! I find, when I become more aware of my thoughts, that I am almost constantly thinking about things that have happened or things that are going to happen - or a combination of both! This, of course, is natural, and often necessary, but upon making initial forays into attempting to be totally in the moment, it can be pretty spiritually rewarding as a kind of mindful, conscious, active meditation. To not even think about what one has done 1 minute ago or what one is going to do 1 minute in the future. To enjoy/appreciate the running of a bath (being the time I last indulged in this), to not even think about washing, but to just feel the water on one's skin, to breath in the moist, warm air, to semi-float in a few inches of water... Or even while washing up! - to enjoy the act of gently scrubbing the plates free of Marmite + toast crumbs, to emerse one's hands in the warm, soapy water, to gently stack the clean, steaming items, one by one, on the rack... Any act can be therapeutic, spiritual, meditative and lead to clarity of mind and cleansing of the soul! I think I may make a cup of tea... :mellow:

[Taeguk]

Hi Zoid! :)

You wrote:

Great story, Taeguk!

Well thanks! :)

You go on to say:

It also relates to the moment-to-moment approach, which I've started trying to adopt to an even greater degree... It's surprising, when you are really conscious of "when" your mind is, just how much it is not in the present! I find, when I become more aware of my thoughts, that I am almost constantly thinking about things that have happened or things that are going to happen - or a combination of both!

Isn't it funny? :lol: I never realized how much I did that until I started practicing awareness, either! The mind likes to stretch itself forward and back, doesn't it? I know mine certainly does!

You go on to say:

This, of course, is natural, and often necessary, but upon making initial forays into attempting to be totally in the moment, it can be pretty spiritually rewarding as a kind of mindful, conscious, active meditation

I think so too! And of course, there are times when one should think back to the past or anticipate the future---but ideally, it should be in reference to the present, and it should be something one does conciously, not the sort of hazy daydreaming/zoing out that tends to happen a lot when one isn't mindful.

Any act can be therapeutic, spiritual, meditative and lead to clarity of mind and cleansing of the soul!

Isn't that amazing? :thumbsup:

I think I may make a cup of tea

What kind of tea do you like, Zoid? (hmmm...maybe we should start a tea thread under the "Lifestyle" Forum?)

[Zoid]

Regarding Tea... :)

One might get the impression, from for example the title of my blog ("The Art of Tea") that I'm very fussy about my tea, will avoid tea bags like the proverbial plague, etc, but the fact is... I'm not!

The "artiness," as far as I'm concerned, in making/drinking tea or anything else, comes not in the specific physical aspects of the process, but more in the attitude and demeanour one adopts while performing it... One can pop a Tetleys tea bag in a cup, stir it, remove tea bag, add milk, stir again and drink... in an artful (i.e. "mindful") manner! This approach can be applied to any task... :mellow:

[Noway2Zero]

very well put Zoid! :)

[Starry_Canopy]

Zoid,

The "artiness," as far as I'm concerned, in making/drinking tea or anything else, comes not in the specific physical aspects of the process, but more in the attitude and demeanour one adopts while performing it... One can pop a Tetleys tea bag in a cup, stir it, remove tea bag, add milk, stir again and drink... in an artful (i.e. "mindful") manner! This approach can be applied to any task...


Reminds me of the book - "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

[Zoid]

Thank you, Zero & Canopy! ;)

Reminds me of the book - "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

Great book! Anyone read his latest?