The Wisdom Of Fight Club?

[WanderingTaoist]

I watched Fight Club for the first time in a long time the other night, and several lines stuck with me. I was wondering what you thought of them, the movie/book in general, and its message. Does it have anything meaningful to say? Does it get anything wrong? Anything right?

I thought I'd start this off with a few transcripts from the movie. Full script available
here (http://www.hundland.com/scripts/Fight-Club_third.htm).

In particular, there's the scene where Tyler forces Jack to burn his hand, Jack tries his "guided meditation" gig, and Tyler tells him no:

TYLER
Lye -- the crucial ingredient.
(adding lye to mix)
Ancient peoples found their clothes
got cleaner if they washed them at a
certain spot in the river. Why?
Because, human sacrifices were once
made on the hills above this river.
Year after year, bodies burnt. Rain
feel. Water seeped through the wood
ashes to become lye. The lye
combined with the melted fat of the
bodies, till a thick white soapy
discharge crept into the river....
The first soap was made from the
ashes of heroes. Like the first
monkeys shot into space.

The saliva shines in the shape of the kiss. Tyler pours a
bit of the flaked lye onto Jack's hand.

TYLER
Without sacrifice, without death, we
would have nothing.

Jack's whole body JERKS. Tyler holds tight to Jack's hand
and arm. Tears well in Jack's eyes; his face tightens.

TYLER
This is a chemical burn. It will
hurt more than you've ever been
burned and you will have a scar.

Jack looks -- the burn is swollen, glossy, in the shape of
Tyler's kiss. Jack's face spasms.

JACK (V.O.)
Tyler's kiss was a bonfire on the
back of my hand.

TYLER
Look at your hand.

JACK (V.O.)
Guided meditation worked for cancer,
it could work for this.

SHOT OF A GREEN MAPLE LEAF, GLISTENING WITH DEW. RESUME:

Tyler looks at Jack's glazed and detached eyes.

TYLER
Come back to the pain. Don't shut
this out.

Jack, snapping back, tries to jerk his hand away. Tyler
keeps hold of it and their arms KNOCK UTENSILS off the table.

JACK (V.O.)
I tried not to think of the words
"searing" or "flesh." I imagined my
pain as a ball of healing white light.

SHOT OF A FOREST, IN GENTLE SPRING RAINFALL. RESUME:

Tyler JERKS Jack's hand, getting Jack's attention...

TYLER
Stop it. This is your pain -- your
burning hand. It's right here. Look
at it.

JACK (V.O.)
I was going to my cave to find my
power animal.

SHOT OF THE INSIDE OF JACK'S FROZEN ICE CAVE. RESUME:

Tyler JERKS Jack's hand again. Jack re-focuses on Tyler...

TYLER
Don't deal with this the way those
dead people do. Deal with it the way
a living person does.

SHOT OF INSIDE THE ICE CAVE - ON MARLA, LYING NAKED UNDER A
FUR COAT, TURNING HER HEAD TO LOOK TOWARDS US. RESUME:

Jack tries to pull his hand free. Tyler won't let go.
Jack's eyes glaze over again. Jack speaks, whiny from pain:

JACK
I... I think I understand. I think
I get it...

TYLER
No, what you're feeling is premature
enlightenment.

SHOT OF A GREEN FOREST WITHOUT RAIN. RESUME:

Tyler SLAPS Jack's face, regaining his attention...

TYLER
This is the greatest moment of your
life and you're off somewhere,
missing it.

And of course, there's the notion of "hitting bottom" and its philosophical and spiritual implications:


TYLER
Hitting bottom isn't a weekend
retreat! It's not a seminar! You
have to forget everything you know,
everything you think you know --
about life, about friendship, about
you and me.

And a couple of these:


TYLER
Could be worse. You could be cursed
with the three terrible Karmas. You
could be beautiful, rich and famous.

TYLER
The Stuff you own, ends up owning you.


Discuss!

[Michael]

Ah, the old hitting bottom theme.

Buddha and the Lotus.

The Christ in the desert.

You are asking about the action that takes place where the tectonic plates of the human psyche meet - do we get the Himalayas or the Pacific Trench, eruption or construction and even then you have to decide which is which :lol:

You want an answer which must be by the nature of things theoretical.

The person you should be asking the question of is yourelf and the only way to get an honest answer is to put yourself in that place and see what answers you have within yourself.

To be gnomic. we are the question and the answer.

[Fool Zero]

I've never seen the movie and it feels awkward to be commenting on a story that I know so little of -- only those excerpts and a glance at the script that WT linked to. I don't think I'm going to read the whole thing anytime soon, either.

My first reaction is: Don't try this at home! :nono:

My second is: those guys have one helluva cult there. :o

My third is: the description of the lye burn sounded way distorted to me. Lye, unless you get it in your eye or your mouth or something, takes a few minutes to produce burns. I've never had a serious chemical burn but the trivial ones I've had all started off gradually with an itching or smarting sensation. That was always enough to draw my attention to the spot and remind me to quickly wash off the offending substance. :think:

That said, the lye incident reminded me of this (http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=39), from Dune:From the folds of her gown, she lifted a green metal cube about fifteen centimeters on a side. She turned it and Paul saw that one side was open - black and oddly frightening. Paul slowly put his hand into the box. He first felt a sense of cold as the blackness closed around his hand, then slick metal against his fingers and a prickling as though his hand were asleep. I haven't seen a copy of the book for years but what follows is a pain-endurance test for Paul. "She" (I've forgotten her name but she reminded me of an abbess from hell) holds up a poisoned needle and warns Paul that if he so much as twitches it'll be all over for him. He feels his hand being burnt to charcoal but passes the test. When it's over (after maybe a minute), he's astonished to find his hand perfectly intact. This episode, as I recall, is only a futuristic initiation ritual and makes no reference to enlightenment.

As to the Fight Club lye burning, it's hard to separate any valid message there from all the drama and (questionably consensual) BDSM that it's entangled with. "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger," maybe.
TYLER
Come back to the pain. Don't shut this out.
. . .
TYLER
Don't deal with this the way those dead people do. Deal with it the way a living person does. Tyler isn't getting out of the way here, letting Jack learn to confront his own pain. He's making himself a bigger priority for Jack than the pain is. In the real world, what I'd expect Jack to learn from Tyler's teaching would be to first of all stay the hell away from anyone remotely reminding him of Tyler. Even if by some freak the teaching did work as intended, I picture any subsequent "enlightenment" that Jack might attain as pivoting around "What Would Tyler Do?" In other words -- he's not getting enlightened, he's getting initiated into a cult. :rolleyes:

[WanderingTaoist]

My first reaction is: Don't try this at home! nono.gif

My second is: those guys have one helluva cult there. ohmy.gif

I'd agree with both of those sentiments! :lol:

That said, the lye incident reminded me of this, from Dune

As far as the lye sequence being distorted goes, it's not conveyed very well in the script but in the movie Tyler literally is holding Jack's hand steady for several minutes, it might be more realistic? I can't say I've ever burned myself with a strong base substance before, so I don't know how realistic it is in the movie.

You know, I never made the connection before with the gom jabber of Dune and the lye-burning scene, but that makes total sense. Reverand Mother Gaius Mohiam (I think that was her name?) is basically testing Paul Atredies "to see if you're human", as she tells him. Perhaps not "enlightenment" per se, but it's definitely similiar....interesting connection!

As far as enlightenment, well...the powers of Paul as they develop might be consider akin to enlightenment, and it's very interesting that the Fremen religion is called "Zensunni" (Zen+sunni). Of course, Dune has loads more Buddhist and generally religious content than something like Fight Club.

Tyler isn't getting out of the way here, letting Jack learn to confront his own pain. He's making himself a bigger priority for Jack than the pain is. In the real world, what I'd expect Jack to learn from Tyler's teaching would be to first of all stay the hell away from anyone remotely reminding him of Tyler. Even if by some freak the teaching did work as intended, I picture any subsequent "enlightenment" that Jack might attain as pivoting around "What Would Tyler Do?" In other words -- he's not getting enlightened, he's getting initiated into a cult.

That's a pretty decent analysis there, especially given that you haven't seen the movie! Much like the philosophy of Nietchze (and if you're familiar with Nietchze, you'll hear echoes of him and his theories throughout the movie), I feel like Fight Club diagnosises the right problems, but applies a wrong solution. Unfortunately, as Jack eventually finds out, there is no getting away from Tyler, at least for him.

[Thomas Knierim]

There is no wisdom in the Fight Club.

A whole lot of mumbo jumbo to rationalise testosteron-engendered primate aggression.

Enormous stupidity. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers, Thomas

[spiritual_emergency]

Thomas: There is no wisdom in the Fight Club.

As long as we're speaking from personal experience, I found some wisdom in "Fight Club". Here. (http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=72&start=0&mforum=boxershorts)

[Thomas Knierim]

Okay, maybe that initial assessment was a bit harsh. The movie actually has some merit, since it is a decent portrayal of anti-social, sado-masochistic, as well as compulsive-obsessive behaviour plus it is well dramatised. Tyler gets most of the anti-social part. Although it is quite a few years ago since I saw the movie, I remember the character quite well. It must be one of Brad Pitt's more notable achievements. I still didn't like the movie very much, because it glorifies violence and it doesn't really explore the pathological aspect of the topic very deeply.

Cheers, Thomas