Kundalini Necessary For Enlightenment?

[oboe2damax]

I'm not sure if a post on Kundalini belongs in the Buddhism section but enlightenment does so I'll post away.

Is awakening the Kundalini a necessary prerequisite for attaining enlightenment? If so, this quest seems to have taken a risky turn.

I was also wondering if there were previous thoughts/posts on the process of Kundalini awakening.

[spiritual_emergency]

Before we could discuss this subject I think it might be necessary to a.) Define "kundalini".
b.) Define "enlightenment".

I have a hunch it'll be easier to talk about kundalini than it will enlightenment. For a start, here's an excellent site on the matter: Kundalini Awakening (http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening.htm).

[scameter]

I didn't really understand that site spiritual_emergency.. :D So, if someone could define Kundalini, I'd be able to respond. :)

[oboe2damax]

wow, that was an excellent site on this matter. the diagram alone...brilliant

Sorry for not expanding more. My philosophy buddy points this out too, I tend to pose questions, and theories before the premises that get me there. If you see any more of that, my bad. :duh: :lol:

From what I've gathered, the Kundalini is a human phenomenon discovered in Hinduism and can be conceptualized as a coiled, snake-like energy 'hibernating' in the base of our spine. In sitting meditation it can be awakened through the correct loosening/dissolving/opening of the different chakra channels along the spine that conduct spiritual energy. When it proceeds to, or through (not sure) the brain, there is a freight-train like experience of merging consciousness/nirvana/enlightenment? That is the best I can do in explaining that last part. I know that certain branches of Hatha yoga are invloved with this.

Before curious explorers dive into this I should post that the reported dangers of inducing this forcibly or without guidence include:

From wiki:"Summary of Known Problems: Death, pseudo death, psychosis, pseudo psychosis, confusion, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, sadness, suicidal thoughts, urges to self-mutilate, homicidal urges, arrhythmia (irregular heart beat), exacerbation of prior or current mental illness, insomnia, inability to hold a job, inability to talk, inability to drive, sexual pains, temporary blindness, and headaches" :tremble:

so...not to be taken lightly I guess

As for enlightenment... from a psychological point of view it could be a oneness of the conscious and unconscious mind, providing an active conduit for ones infinite, uniquely creative imagination. Due to humans being biological, psychological, and social entities ... enlightenment should occur in all of these areas. The Kundalini could be the biological component of this process.

However, there may be as many paths to enlightenment as there are people in the world, so take that with a grain of salt.

also... smilies are AWESOME

[spiritual_emergency]

Hello oboe2damax:
I would agree with your general cautions in regard to trying to "awaken" one's kundalini although I'm also not so sure that one can "make" it do so. My understanding is that it "awakens" when it does and not a moment before. I should note, I do not believe it is possible for a human being to ever be "fully" enlightened, although I do believe that a human being can have many awakening experiences -- kundalini being one of them. That's a personal opinion, so don't quote me.

Here's a few more sites that may provide additional answers for you... Kundalini Awakening (http://www.nor.com.au/community/spiritualemergence/page9.html)
Shared Transformations (http://www.elcollie.com/st/st.html)
An Interview With Gopi Krishna (http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/gopinterview.htm)
scameter: I didn't really understand that site spiritual_emergency.. So, if someone could define Kundalini, I'd be able to respond.

It's possible the sites above could help provide you with a bit more insight, scameter. Kundalini was part of my own experience but I don't consider myself to be very knowledgable in the matter. My skill seems to lie in finding those that are knowledgeable, therefore, I'll be happy to share this interview with you by Dr. Lee Sannella: What is Kundalini? (http://www.intuition.org/txt/sannella.htm) It provides yet another perspective.

[oboe2damax]

Hi spiritual_emergency,

I remember reading about an experience of yours that sounded like it fit a Kundalini experience, so it's cool that you confirm that.

I would agree with your general cautions in regard to trying to "awaken" one's kundalini although I'm also not so sure that one can "make" it do so.

I thought Gopi Krishna's experience is also an example of a forced 'awakening' causing problems.

My Tai Chi instructor once shared an experience of rolling around on the ground with a serpant wiggling up and down his spine while under the influence of LSD during his years as a 'dead head'. That could count as a forced awakening. Granted he was on lsd, so once again with that grain of salt.

Thank you for those extra resources! After I got past that cool diagram on the first site, things got confusing. I'll be sure to take a look.

[spiritual_emergency]

oboe2damax: I thought Gopi Krishna's experience is also an example of a forced 'awakening' causing problems.

I sometimes think of my own experience as having been "forced", yet I also feel that every experience in my life previous to that moment delivered me right up to that threshold. Can a body forcibly awaken kundalini energy? I think the answer could be summed up as: Yes. No. Maybe.

In my own case, I (self) identify loss/trauma (http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/2006/05/how-to-produce-acute-schizophrenic.html) as being the transformative agent. In the personal histories of some of the others I've quoted, different factors were involved. For example, the young man I identified as Michael was actively practicing kundalini yoga in addition to partaking in the occasional use of ethnogens. The individual I identified as Isaiah had experimented with acid. Both had what I would define as transpersonal experiences. One killed himself as a result, the other may have killed someone else and certainly was penalized by his culture for his experience of "god-realization". As Thomas Szasz once noted, "If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks back, you're schizophrenic." Ideally, it's nothing that a good dose of electroshock can't overcome. <-- Sarcasm/Cynicism

All the same, some of the literature I've read about kundalini seems a bit sketchy, to the extent that any somatic complaint could be dismissed as kundalini related. I believe there's more to it. Sometimes an ulcer is just an ulcer, and sometimes, it's part of a larger pattern of experience that could be attributed to kundalini energy.

[oboe2damax]

I also feel that every experience in my life previous to that moment delivered me right up to that threshold.

Nice, its awesome to be able to view oneself as a dynamic force.

I get what you're saying about the energy awakening during a transformative moment in yourlife. Your time is your time. An irreversible experience.

Expanding on the schizophrenic idea, the dangerous effects could be somatization of the chaos that the sudden release of one's unconscious brings about. The more stable the mind is, the less chaos there will be in the unconscious?

[spiritual_emergency]

oboe2demax: The more stable the mind is, the less chaos there will be in the unconscious?

Ummmm. Could we go with: Yes. No. Maybe.?

What I'm really asking is: Do you have more information? I ask for a couple of different reasons. At least one of them is that I've encountered numerous individuals who seem to operate from a belief that spiritual growth is somehow related to an expectation that life will keep expanding and expanding and expanding and we -- meaning you and I -- will keep integrating that energy. There seems to be an expectation that "the higher one climbs, the prettier the view". Yet, this has not been my experience. Does it mean I'm not on the correct path or does it mean that real growth is messy, painful and wholly unelegant even as it is and is not all those things?

Given my experiences, (and I'm willing to concede that my response could be a merely human egoic one of defensiveness), I think there comes a point when you can't take anymore in. This is the moment in which you break. Within ordinary human terms, that breaking might be construed as weakness, yet from a "spiritual" point of view, the breaking is vital; it's necessary. Does kundalini play a role in this breaking? Speaking from a purely personal viewpoint, yes -- I think it does.

[oboe2damax]

Ummmm. Could we go with: Yes. No. Maybe.?

for now :thumbsup:

*sleeps*

[scameter]

Oboe essentially explained it to me, and it seems quite interesting. Does it have any relation to chakras?

[namtso]

Years ago my Grandmother warned that messing with Kundalini yoga could short circuit your melon. She told me not to mess with it. Based on the earlier posts in this thread, they seem to support that concern.

[spiritual_emergency]

scameter: Does it have any relation to chakras?

Yes. If you go back to that first link in this thread titled Kundalini Awakening, the image that you see demonstrates the kundalini energy moving through the chakra centers.


namtso: my Grandmother warned that messing with Kundalini yoga could short circuit your melon.

In the past few years of actively seeking out individuals who have undergone an experience of "severe mental illness" I've noticed that mania often plays a role. I suspect this is related in some manner to kundalini energy. I've also noticed that in those diagnosed with bi-polar disorder the energy seems to be a bit all over the place whereas in those diagnosed with schizophrenia, the energy (and thus the experience) is more highly structured. I was probably most "manic" at the height of that experience. This was the phase when I did not eat or sleep for several days. I danced, I shook, I experienced terror, pain. This was also the phase when "god" showed up and I felt the heart of that Universe beat in my chest. Pretty intense stuff.

People with "bi-polar disorder" often act out sexually or eat, drink, and spend wildly -- behaviors that could possibly be associated with the "lower" chakras. People with "schizophrenia" experience fragmentation, visionary states, and a condition of being that could be likened to extreme forms of empathy (http://spiritualrecoveries.blogspot.com/2006/05/dr-maureen-roberts-schizophrenia.html). Could it be that kundalini energy manifests in a different manner according to one's personal chakra make-up? Thatsa good question.


oboe2damax: for now

Something for you to think about...



"The black queen chants
the funeral march,
The cracked brass bells will ring;
To summon back the fire witch
To the court of the crimson king."

The black queen is Kali, the destructive aspect of the Goddess (Persephone in the Eleusinian Mysteries). The court of the crimson king is consciousness (the head). The black queen chants the funeral march (representing the death of the ego). The cracked brass bells (the divided psyche) will ring ... to summon back the fire witch" (Kundalini-Shakti) from dormancy at the base of the spine to consciousness in the head.

Source: The Court of the Crimson King (http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/GnosisF.html)



You may find some additional items of interest in the ego death thread, specifically, those related to Kali.

[oboe2damax]

Something for you to think about...

Indeed


Years ago my Grandmother warned that messing with Kundalini yoga could short circuit your melon.

grandmothers usually know best

bi polar .....lower.....

I think SE was referring to the chakra's location along the spine, not the level of their significance

[namtso]

Years ago my Grandmother warned that messing with Kundalini yoga could short circuit your melon. grandmothers usually know best

She has studied both Christian religion and Eastern religion extensively in her day. She's 98 yrs. old now so she's pretty much just cruising but says she wants to beat her friend's record of living to 106 years old. She only just got her hearing aids maybe little over a year ago and it has improved her mood greatly. That's normally the case so if you have a relative or friend that's putting off getting hearing aids, bug them about it. They may have to try a couple of times to get the fit right so they are not uncomfortable though. My Grandmother still sends me hand written letters and article clippings. Got one just two weeks ago. She has had a lot of her haiku published in a small periodical called Haiku Headlines. I think the man who puts it out, David Priebe, is ill though, I don't know if he's still doing it. Haiku Headlines will pop up on a Google search though. (http://www.google.com/search?q=haiku+headlines+david+priebe&hl=en&lr=&safe=off) She is also an ordained minister (not sure what church) and has performed quite a few weddings. She worked with a non-profit spiritual organization for something like 15 or 20 years. They sent out a lot of printed literature all over the world and to prisoners too (similar to Robina Courtin's prison project). I asked her about references to reincarnation in the Christian Bible just a month or two ago and she rattled off at least two references right away. I Googled them and she was right on both. If I remember correctly, she has been to Findhorn in Scotland to see the people there and the monster vegetables they grew. She's definitely been over to Europe several times so I think I'm remembering that correctly. I think the stewardship of Findhorn has changed quite a bit since then based on what my Grandmother says. Anyhow, if I ever want to know about Kundalini, chakras, prime meridians, "walk-ins", other levels of consciousness, angels etc. my Grandmother is the best resource I have. She was considered to be the number one authority in the non-profit she was working for right up until the time she retired for good. Ok, I think I'm done bragging about my Grandmother for now. Suffice it to say I value her opinion in these matters.


[ Ref.: Haiku Headlines. David Priebe, Editor. 1347 W. 71st St., Los Angeles, CA 90044. $18.00. Monthly with cash contests. - see http://www.ahapoetry.com/tree.htm or http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/haikumagre.../haikumags.html (http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/haikumagreviews/haikumags.html) ]

[scameter]

Bitchin'.

[oboe2damax]

SE can speak for herself

my bad

[namtso]

Bitchin'. - scam


Yes, I thought so too.

[spiritual_emergency]

oboe2damax: I think SE was referring to the chakra's location along the spine, not the level of their significance

To be perfectly honest, I'm simply musing aloud. I'm not a professional and don't present myself as one. Within the psychiatric model bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia are considered to be separate disorders -- this is in spite of the fact that there can be a great deal of crossover in terms of experience, i.e., manic states. As noted, it has been my own observations that in those diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, that energy is more erratic -- it doesn't settle down into the same pattern of behavior. In schizophrenia, the experience seems to be structured in a different manner. One of the things kundalini is supposed to do is to work through blockages in the chakras, so that got me wondering if perhaps that might help explain the differences in the behavior that is seen.

psyche, I don't know how to take your words. You seem to feel I've inferred that bi-polar disorder is somehow "lower" than schizophrenia and I'm not so sure that I've applied the same value system as you have. I'm not as interested in "rating" experiences as I am in understanding them. Could bi-polar disorder be related to kundalini working through a blockage in one of the lower chakras? I don't know. Could schizophrenia be related to kundalini working through a blocking in one of the higher chakras? I don't know. I didn't start thinking about any possible link until this morning.


psyche: so where is a link or a cut and paste that schizophrenia more spiritual than bi polar

If there was one I doubt very much that it would be found at NIMH, NAMA, or schizophrenia.com. Still, that's no reason to not go looking, so I did... "bipolar + kundalini" (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=bipolar%2Bkundalini&spell=1)

"schizophrenia + kundalini" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=schizophrenia%2Bkundalini&meta=)

If I hadn't put in 11 hours of overtime today, I'd probably do my usual thing and comb through those articles looking for the best parts. As it is, I'm too tired but I did see a promising article in the bipolar section as related to a yoga teacher who works with kundalini problems. If you should happen to find anything good, feel free to let me know.

namtso, that's a cool grandmother to have.

[namtso]

namtso, that's a cool grandmother to have. - S_E
Thank you

[Thomas Knierim]

namtso: She's 98 yrs. old now so she's pretty much just cruising but says she wants to beat her friend's record of living to 106 years old.

Good luck to her!

My granddad has joined the illustrious circle of the 100-year old last month. It has been reported that he invited 50 people to celebrate his birthday and that countless bottles of Champagne were emptied in the process. Unfortunately I could not join the festivities 9000 km away . :(

Cheers, Thomas

[spiritual_emergency]

psyche: no i want the link that says 'schizophrenia is the HIGHER delusion of grandeur'

Unfortunately, I believe it's already been established that if someone holds up a hoop and asks me to jump through it, I'm likely to disappoint them.

It seems to me psyche, that you have taken what you know of the chakra system, including the values you apply to it, and then laid it over my statements regarding bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia. It's my understanding that kundalini moves up through the chakras and then, back down through all of them to ground the body and establish a full circuit. What I'm interested in knowing at the moment is if the "disorders" themselves are related to blockages within specific chakras. I'm not interested in establishing if one is "better" or "less-than" another.

Perhaps we should ask our chakra model to lay down. That way, all the chakras are on one even plain -- equal. Now, we don't have to pretend that one is of more value than the other since they are all necessary. Now, we can look at the "patient" and say, "I see a ball of energy. What does it mean? Why is it there and not in another place? What kind of symptoms and behaviors might we see if it is in the abdomen as opposed to the chest and what is the purpose and value of those symptoms?"

Should you still require me to demonstrate that schizophrenia is a higher or lower "delusion of grandeur", I'm going to have to insist that you are quite capable of running your own google search. I don't feel up to failing at hoop-jumping today.

[namtso]

Good luck to her!

My granddad has joined the illustrious circle of the 100-year old last month. It has been reported that he invited 50 people to celebrate his birthday and that countless bottles of Champagne were emptied in the process. Unfortunately I could not join the festivities 9000 km away .

Cheers, Thomas

Thanks and congratulations to your Granddad. It's been a year since I've seen my family, I'll be going out there for Christmas holiday. If I had my way I'd be out there 3 or 4 times a year but airline tickets are pretty expensive and it seems that it's going to stay that way for a while. I'm considering taking a job on the West coast which will put me closer to California where they live. If the money's right I'll likely take it.

[oboe2damax]

Grandiose Type. The patient has exaggerated ideas of identity, knowledge, power, self-worth, talent or special relationship to God.


I've seen this symptom gone over in-depth in schizophrenics on a psychology video. The grandiose delusions usually manifest as a Jesus complex, and they believe in a common-sense sort of way, that they actually are Jesus/Santa Claus/some important historical or fictional figure.

I would hesitate to describe any of the individuals in those videos as visionaries. Deluded remains a more appropriate term in my opinion.

[namtso]

From: http://www.swamij.com/kundalini-awakening-6.htm
"If one is not ready, it can be like putting too much electricity through a small wire or fuse"
That is what my Grandmother told me. Thanks for reminding me. When I said "short circuit your melon...", I'll admit that is pretty crude although I didn't intend to be insulting anybody. I would like to point out though that "short circuit your melon" sounds an awful lot like "putting too much electricity through a small wire or fuse", hmmmmm??? Thanks for the reference psyche.

Like a flash there is presented to his consciousness a clear conception (a vision) in outline of the meaning and drift of the universe.
Has anyone here experienced something like this?

Now I cringe and wait to see if Oboe or Scam clobbers me again. Go ahead, I can take it. I'd also like to say that the text on these issues of schizophrenia and bipolar are so highly specialized and complex, well suffice it to say that without the extensive study or schooling in the subject, they are almost completely over my head. Scam, that's a set up for you. Go in for the kill. Come on, I'm taunting you. Taunt taunt taunt. I guess I'm bored. Ok, I've disrupted class enough, please carry on with the discussion. (taunt taunt taunt @ scam and oboe)

[spiritual_emergency]

namtso: I'd also like to say that the text on these issues of schizophrenia and bipolar are so highly specialized and complex, well suffice it to say that without the extensive study or schooling in the subject, they are almost completely over my head.

The way I look at it is thus -- "schizophrenia" affects .5 - 2 % of the global population, meaning it doesn't affect 99.5 - 98%. Those most motivated to study or learn about the process are those who are most likely to be impacted in some manner by the experience. This includes those who have the experience and those who care about those who have the experience. All in all however, it's going to be a very small proportion of individuals in any environment who are motivated to dive deeply into the subject. Unfortunately, Hollywood and mainstream psychiatry tends to fill the gaps for the rest who nonetheless, may be driven by a certain degree of curiosity or even fascination to comprehend something they do not understand. Equally unfortunately, they often stop at the Hollywood or mainstream version.

oboe2damax: I've seen this symptom gone over in-depth in schizophrenics on a psychology video. The grandiose delusions usually manifest as a Jesus complex, and they believe in a common-sense sort of way, that they actually are Jesus/Santa Claus/some important historical or fictional figure.

If you would really like to know more oboe2damax, I suspect you would find this personal account by Dr. David Lukoff to be of interest...



While there, I stopped in front of the mirror and gazed at my reflection. Suddenly I noticed that my right hand was glowing, giving off a white light. My thumb was touching my forefinger in the ancient mudra position of the meditating Buddha. Immediately the meaning of this sign was clear to me: I had been Buddha in a previous life. Then another thought came: Buddha had been reincarnated as Jesus Christ. Therefore, I had also been Jesus Christ.

Source: My Spiritual Emergency (http://spiritualemergency.blogspot.com/2006/01/personal-account-dr-david-lukoff.html)



According to Dr. John Weir Perry, a Jungian psychiatrist with 40 years of clinical experience working with "schizophrenics" and a recovery rate of 85% to boot, both Jesus and Buddha are symbols of the center. Their appearance in a "schizophrenic" state is no accident, and quite normal under the circumstances.



[color=green]Perry searched for and finally discovered a regular pattern of imagery and ideation in the psychotic process. [...] Most significantly, ten sets of motifs emerged: symbols of the center
death
return to beginnings
cosmic conflict
the threat of the opposite sex
apotheosis
sacred marriage
new birth
new society, and
the quadrated world

Following the Jungian school of thought (from which Perry emerged), comparative symbolism and cross-cultural studies were used to uncover a holistic context, in order to view such motifs in a larger context. Further research led to the discovery of the same sequence of imagery in archaic religions and in other cultural structures. Most significant to the author is that “the myth and ritual form that resembles it is the principal and central rite of the civilizations of remote antiquity, and parallels the image sequence step for step.” That is, the “ceremonial pattern of sacral kingship,” found in the ancient Near East, the Mediterranean, Europe, and the Far East, which involves an annual renewal of the cosmos during the New Year.

The author devotes an entire chapter to the psychic significance of kingship, and he refers to its importance throughout The Far Side of Madness. Indeed, the correspondence is striking: in the New Year festivals, we find “a creation rite also emphasizing the center, the beginnings, death and renewal, the sacred combat and sacred marriage, and the other elements of the process.” The sacred functions of kingship represent a projection of “man’s spiritual potential as an individual.”

Once such functions were integrated in the collective psyche, the era of the sacred king gave way to a new era: one ushered in by “great prophets and founders of the great religions,” and characterized by a revaluation of the individual and of the Eros principle. Thus, kingship reflects an archetypal pattern of growth: one progressing through dismemberment, reconstitution, and the rebirth of psyche, paralleling the “outer” historical processes (which themselves were probably based on inner archetypal correlates) and culminating in the Eros principle (the return to love).

Source: Psychosis as Purposive (http://www.tygersofwrath.com/psychosis.htm) </span>



As noted, I suggest you not click on those links unless you really want to know: approximately 99.5-98% of all people really don't. It's also worth noting however that all religious movements have been based on the visionary states -- also known as pychoses -- of their founders. Certainly, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, etc. would not make it through a modern day psychiatric ward without a hip full of neuroleptic medication. Perhaps a worthy question to ask of anyone following a spiritual path would be -- are you following a valid path or are all religions nothing more than the manifested medium of the mad?

[namtso]

It's also worth noting however that all religious movements have been based on the visionary states -- also known as pychoses -- of their founders. Certainly, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, etc. would not make it through a modern day psychiatric ward without a hip full of neuroleptic medication. Perhaps a worthy question to ask of anyone following a spiritual path would be -- are you following a valid path or are all religions nothing more than the manifested medium of the mad?
- Spiritual Emergency

I've been thinking about that one for a few weeks now thanks to Big Viewers. However, I think that in most any religion or "science of the mind" like Buddhism is often described, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, eh? All I have to do is look at the Dalai Lama to realize that Buddhism has some good points. I am still trying to sort out the whole "nation goes pacifist, get's invaded" issue. Then again plenty of militarized nations have also been invaded but it was probably more difficult to do it!

It also raises the question "what is normal?" Van Gogh clearly was not terribly normal but his paintings have become incredibly popular. I was even listening to Carrie Fisher on NPR tonight and she openly said that with Bipolar disorder, creative writing is great while she's on the manic phase. Of course she also followed up by saying that the depressive phase is lousy. I still don't think I'd totally rule out the possibility of other realities or other planes of existence only because those who are not deemed normal might also be the ones that are more aware of those other realities. I got caught shoplifting an ink pen when I was in high school. My Mother said she suddenly got very sick to her stomach and had no idea why. Well the reason turned out to be because I was scared witless. Shortly after her stomach ache she got the phone call from store security and she immediately knew what caused the reaction. She did not get sick afterward. She totally believes and accepts that she just senses certain things naturally. I believe her. Is that ability "normal"? Really depends on what a particular culture accepts as normal really. I guess what I'm getting at is that what is considered to be "madness" is sort of subjective and defined by the current society and it's medical professionals and also, a truly inspired spiritual leader may in fact just have a highly refined ability to see "reality" in a much more direct manner. Or not, but I don't think it can be ruled out yet.

[spiritual_emergency]

namtso: I guess what I'm getting at is that what is considered to be "madness" is sort of subjective and defined by the current society and it's medical professionals...

Yep. Case in point, a number of the quotes psyche posted in regard to schizophrenia highlight the aspect of "religious or grandiose delusions". In a different culture, the same experiences might be defined as "god-realization, kundalini awakening, initiatiatory crisis" or perhaps, "shamanistic". How others respond to the individual in the throes of such an experience can have a tremendous impact on the outcome. In my own case, at the point that I was identifying with the imagery of Christ, I was fortunate to have someone around who wasn't weirded out by that and could also point out that many other people had had similiar experiences -- I wasn't the only one. Apparently, you can get away with saying, "I am THAT" but you can't get away with saying, "I am the ONLY THAT".

As previously noted much of my online time is devoted to the subject of schizophrenia versus spiritual emergency. I actively go out of my way to find people who have been through a schizophrenic experience but I don't consider the mere mention of "schizophrenia" to be the equivalent of "spiritual emergency". I am looking for a pattern of behavior -- self-identification with symbols of the center happen to be one of them. Should I encounter those who self-identify with being Santa Claus, Marie Antoinette or Napoleon, I'm inclined to think they are having a different kind of experience than my own.

... and also, a truly inspired spiritual leader may in fact just have a highly refined ability to see "reality" in a much more direct manner. Or not, but I don't think it can be ruled out yet.

Perry found that the schizophrenic process nearly always serves a self-healing function on an individual level and may serve in the same capacity on a cultural level. I'm inclined to think that those who become spiritual leaders, i.e., visionaries, may fill a niche within the context of their own culture. It also means that the culture itself is willing to hear them. In this culture, we don't listen to our visionaries -- we drug them so the visions will go away.

[namtso]

Apparently, you can get away with saying, "I am THAT" but you can't get away with saying, "I am the ONLY THAT". - Spiritual Emergency
Perry found that the schizophrenic process nearly always serves a self-healing function on an individual level and may serve in the same capacity on a cultural level. I'm inclined to think that those who become spiritual leaders, i.e., visionaries, may fill a niche within the context of their own culture. It also means that the culture itself is willing to hear them. In this culture, we don't listen to our visionaries -- we drug them so the visions will go away. - Spiritual Emergency
I think that's true. And you have a great sense of humor. Like I've related before here or elsewhere, when I was quite young I had two different personal experiences of what I label hallucinations. Aside from self induced mind altering experiences like getting drunk, those are the only two spontaneous events I've ever experienced that I had no control over. (Unless you count paying taxes, ha ha.) I like to state this as a preface because I want to make it clear that any opinion I have in regard to this subject is purely based on my own opinion. And my opinion being based on little more than conversations I've had with people and my own personal experience, which is next to nothing regarding altered states. Except for dreams. I had a disturbing dream this morning and the very strange thing about dreams is that I will often react emotionally in response to what's occurring in the dream as if it were really happening. Of course when I wake up I realize that it was just a dream but the odd thing is that as I'm waking up and coming to that realization, there's still the residue of the emotion I was experiencing in the dream. That has value to me because I use that emotional momentum to think about the dream, what might have inspired it and what lesson I might learn from it. My view of dreams is that they are the subconscious mind working out problems or bringing issues to the forefront of the mind that I might have overlooked or ignored while I was awake. I know that's not my own unique viewpoint but a commonly held one. I happen to accept it and at the same time I do not rule out any sort of heightened ability to tap into other "thought streams" etc. although I have not personally tried or been able to do that myself, that I'm consciously aware of.

So what the heck am I getting at? My perception of the dream at the time I was dreaming it was that it was a real event. But the person in my dream is a guy I work with. I sincerely doubt that he was in any way involved in my dream in any real sense. He was very likely at his home having his own dream with entirely different characters. No connection. Still, when I woke up, I was angry. He had said that I was going to get sick in a certain way and he said it almost to suggest that I would eventually get deathly ill. I'm thinking in fact that this was really a dream that was somehow in reaction to the recent news story about the Russian guy who just passed and had accused the Russian Government of poisoning him. For some odd reason in my dream the guy who told me I was going to get sick was a guy I work with and who I actually feel is a very friendly and decent guy. He married a woman who immigrated from Czechoslovakia, maybe that's the connection. It's as good as any, it's not really what's important. Why was I reacting emotionally to an event that was not something that would be considered "real"? I really don't know but what's clear is that I was. The dream was my reality when I was dreaming it. What I wonder is that when a person hallucinates or has a schizophrenic experience, are those experiences no more real than a dream? They are plenty real to the person they are happening to at the time. We react in a very real way in the sense that our mind is fully engulfed in the experience and we are likely having an emotional response to the event. But what is real? Our physical world? Our mental world? Both? And of course everything is energy, isn't it. So where's the distinction? The matter in my brain is energy trapped in a framework or physical construct but it's still just another form of energy. Then within my brain is actual electrical impulses coursing through it which is essentially my own personal "software" doing it's thing. What can be accepted as "real" starts to get a little fuzzy. Then I wonder, can the thoughts exist independently of the physical hardware, my brain? That begins to get closer to the core of the issue. Does a person's spirit or soul survive beyond the physical death? And this is precisely the root of much of the problem. Does a thought depend on a physical brain to initiate, process, compare the thought and then eventually to store the memory of it? If the answer is yes, then it can suggest that there is no afterlife, no reincarnation, no angels, no Christ, no god, no Buddha in nirvana, no bodhisattvas. If a thought can persist outside of any physical construct like a brain or a personal computer etc. then maybe an afterlife is possible. As to whether it is blasphemous or even just politically incorrect to say either "I am that" or even "only I am that" does not concern me. What does concern me though is when any person convinces others that they are in fact a Christ or prophet or angel incarnate or any other kind of "supernatural" or divinely inspired being. Then they are often held above others as some sort of authority and whatever they say is given more weight and acceptance. So I think I'm asking the same sorts of questions you are. What is real? Has there ever been a true Christ, angel, prophet and the rest? All I can say is that I haven't met one yet. Then again my own Mother swears that she saw my uncle after he passed away and they spoke briefly. I am talking conversation. He said something like "I'm not sure I like being just a head." (that's all that was visible to my Mother, shoulders and his head) and my Mother replied back "It's ok, you'll get a new body and it will be fine." He answered something like "Ok" and then disappeared. I just asked her about it again tonight. She confirmed that she was not sick or even emotionally upset. She was calm and getting ready to go to sleep, but she was definitely not asleep yet. And that's when my uncle appeared to her. Her experience is nothing like my two hallucination experiences. I will always be open to the possibility that energy patterns like peoples spirits or angels or the like might be possible. At the same time I have no personal and repeatable proof that it's true or real yet.

S_E, I guess my question to you is do you think anyone has gotten any closer to an answer to all this speculation?

[spiritual_emergency]

namtso: S_E, I guess my question to you is do you think anyone has gotten any closer to an answer to all this speculation?

Yes. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm one of them, although I think I've touched that elusiveness we might call the Absolute Truth. A few things I'm aware of as a result of my experience however is that... Distortion occurs when those who have such experiences try to bring them "back down to earth". This results if only because you cannot express a non-linear experience within a linear framework. How do I convey to you an unfoldment that occurred on multiple levels of experience if you can only experience that unfoldment one level at a time as opposed to multi-leveled and simultaneously?

Further distortion occurs when those who know those who have such experiences attempt to pass the experiences on. If you ever played the game "Gossip" or "Telephone" as a child, you'll know exactly what I'm speaking of. [See footnotes.]

I suspect it's possible that an individual who has been devotedly following a spiritual path is capable of producing a "purer" rendition. I wasn't following a spiritual path previous to my experience and to a certain extent, this produced a different kind of purity in that my experience was free of a certain degree of expectation, yet it still contains cultural distortions and remnants of egoic schrapnel.
In spite of the above limitations I've gleaned a few vital lessons from my experience that I think can be honestly shared...

One: This would be the lesson of projection. As above, so below. We -- and I do mean the "royal we" -- are creating this world. What we have within us is what we create outside of us. What I can't find is the language to express "how" we are doing so -- there comes a point in that experience when information is not passed linguistically; the emotion of song expresses that passing better but hardly begins to address the need for concrete templates. Nonetheless, if we clean up our own act internally, if we learn to accept our own shadow, if we cease in our endless projections, blame and personal irresponsiblity, we're going to make the "outer" world a better place for All of us.

Two: There is a powerful intelligence operating within the Universe. Call it God, call it Goddess, call it The Tao, call it the Ultimate Intelligence of Love, but it is certainly Something and that Something cannot be disputed as a capital "R" - Reality when you come naked (meaning, without the clothing of presumed self-identity/ego) face-to-face with it.

Three: Aside from the above, I feel most capable speaking to the issue of spiritual emergency. I don't consider that my own experience has rendered me capable of "leading others to Truth". In other words, take what I say with a grain of salt. The people you should probably listen to are the ones who are not speaking. The mere fact that I am demonstrates that I am still in a phase of digestion and integration.

Otherwise, you've actually introduced far more than one question into the topic and I may come back to address those others as time, interest, and capability permit.


[* The game of "Gossip" or "Telephone" is played in the following manner: Several children form themselves into a row. The first child in the row whispers something into the ear of the second child. The second child whispers this information into the ear of the third child, and so on. By the time the message has moved through the row of all the children the final stated message will only resemble the original message in parts. As it has passed from person to person, multiple layers of interpretation and similar stories have been layered upon the original, to the extent that the original message is still present, but buried within falsehood.]

[oboe2damax]

I apologize for dropping out of the topic that I started. I got swept up in the chaos of papers, finals, and then the holidays.

I'd like to thank all the contributors for the food for thought. :)

[Starry_Canopy]

Please allow me to post one more, albeit belated, morsel :)

My take on it is that kundalini awakening and its reaching its final destination in the centre of the head (Sahasra Chakra, I think its called), after passing through the other chakras in the spine, is one aspect of the physical manifestations of the progress towards and the achievement of enlightenment. I got the impression that this also happens, by itself and in all cases, in parallel with various other processes/ transformations on the road to self realisation.

In this view, the various methods of spiritual development are not to be thought of as different roads going to the same goal, but as different lanes of the one road going to that goal. So, whichever lane we wish to travel by, we are at the same time making parallel progress on the other lanes, provided the speeds possible on those other lanes are moe than or equal to lane lane on which we are.

In the case of the Kundalini lane, however, the speed on it could be very rapid and not fully in our control as the kundalini has its own independent consciousness apart from ours, it being The Divine Energy or Shakti. When its speed exceeds our comfort, that is, when we are unable to keep up with its progress on the other lanes also (such as physical, mental, moral readiness), dislocations or distortions could happen in our body and mind, which a lay observer would possibly see as such adverse effects as 'paralysis', 'mental illness' etc.. Hence, traveling by that lane, without the active assistance/ guidance of one who knows how to do it safely, is inadvisable.

[spiritual_emergency]

I stumbled across this link tonight for any readers who may be interested: Kundalini: Psychosis or Transcendence? -- Dr. Lee Sanella (http://www.skaggs-island.org/humanistic/sannella/kundalini.html) It's the full book, in an online version, by one of the only "Western" physicians to actually study the process. I'm quite pleased that I found it.

From the opening pages...



INTRODUCTION
Tissues are torn, blood vessels severed, blood spilled, much fluid is lost; the heart races and the blood pressure soars. There is moaning, crying, and screaming. A severe injury? No, only a relatively normal human birth. The description sounds pathological because the symptoms were not understood in relation to the outcome: a new human being.

In a darkened room a man sits alone. His body is swept by muscular spasms. Indescribable sensations and sharp pains run from his feet up his legs and over his back and neck. His skull feels as it will burst. Inside his head he hears roaring sounds and high-pitched whistling. Then suddenly a sunburst floods his inner being. His hands burn. He feels his body tearing within. Then he laughs and is overcome with bliss.

A psychotic episode? No, this is a psycho-physiological transformation, a rebirth process as natural as physical birth. It seems pathological only because the symptoms are not understood in relation to the outcome...

When allowed to progress to completion this process culminates in deep psychological balance, strength, and maturity. Its initial stages, however, often share the violence, helplessness, and imbalance that attend the start of human infancy.

For thousands of years, from the ancient Vedas onward, this process has been described. Until recently, it was confined distant cultures, esoteric traditions, and a few isolated individuals. Accounts of it have usually been highly personal and often permeated with vague mysticism and strange mythology. As a result, the accounts were not taken seriously and no systematic comparison of the reports from different traditions was possible. Also, many of these traditions claimed divine revelation and absolute truth. Consequently professionals have remained confused, skeptical and suspicious.

Lately, two factors have changed this situation radically. First, there has been a marked increase in the number of people undergoing intense spiritual experiences within our own culture (Greeley and McCready, 1975). Second, the influence of Western science has resulted in a new emphasis on describing the objective aspects this process in other societies as well as our own. Consequently, it is now possible to compare the experiences of different traditions by a uniform set of standards and to apply those same standards making first-hand clinical observations.

We find a marked uniformity in the descriptions of this process from widely disparate traditions. Gopi Krishna (1973), a Yogi writer, says that from the recorded experiences of Christian mystics, Sufi Masters, and yoga adepts, it is obvious that the basic essentials of the experience are the same. A study of these accounts, when enough detail is recorded, reveals symptom patterns and types sensations that are similar to those found in our cases.

[...]

From a survey of the literature, the clinical study of our own cases and laboratory findings, we present the thesis that a process, most usefully viewed as the "rise of the kundalini" is a reality, is much to be desired, and can be described as an evolutionary process taking place in the human nervous system.

It is interesting to note that our thesis is consistent with the observations of Gopi Krishna (1973, 1975), from his personal experience with the rising of his own kundalini. He says :

A new center-presently dormant in the average man and woman- has to be activated and a more powerful stream of psychic energy must rise into head from the base of the spine to enable human consciousness to transcend normal limits. This is the final phase of the present evolutionary impulse in man. The cerebrospinal system of man has to undergo a radical change, enabling consciousness to transcend the normal limits. This is the final phase of present evolutionary impulse in man. The cerebrospinal system of man has to undergo a radical change, enabling consciousness to attain a dimension which transcends the limits of the highest intellect. Here reason yields to intuition Revelation appears to guide the steps of humankind....

The living substance which, in an altered form, is responsible for causing this aesthetic revolution in the brain is entirely beyond our scrutiny and will remain so for a long time to come.



We shall begin our presentation by discussing the special significance of the rebirth process today and the problem of objectivity in the description of spiritual states. Then we shall present the kundalini concept from yoga tradition as the classical rebirth model most widely applicable, and most easily amenable, to physiological interpretation. But certain differences between the classical kundalini concept and our own cases will lead us to propose a variation, the physio-kundalini model, to account for our observations.

[...]

We consider how our findings relate to the classical yogic description of kundalini action. Then, in our discussion of diagnosis, we show that it is possible to recognize the physio-kundalini process and distinguish it from psychosis, even when these two conditions have temporarily merged in a particular individual. This distinction will help make it possible for clinicians to avoid the mistakes that have often been made in the past.

People undergoing the rebirth process often need special help. We shall consider what forms of help are advisable, and which are not. Finally, we shall suggest an approach for coping with the problems and opportunities generated by the rebirth phenomenon in society as a whole. Here we may be guided by the precedent of Meher Baba's work with Masts, so a second Appendix has been added on this subject. But why is rebirth possible at all? A third Appendix, "Sensitivity in the Human Organism", deals with this question. A fourth Appendix is for the use of medical specialists, and the final Appendix for clinicians.

Study in this area is timely-indeed it is urgent. The new preoccupation with spiritual and occult practices, especially among the young, holds both great promise and great danger. It is essential that we quickly arrive at a deeper understanding of this field.

Source: Kundalini: Psychosis or Transcendence? (http://www.skaggs-island.org/humanistic/sannella/kundalini.html#INTRODUCTION)

See also: Interview - Dr. Lee Sannella (http://www.intuition.org/txt/sannella.htm)