Control

[______]

Smurf brought to light an interesting question in the Suicide thread about control. What is it? Are human beings able to control anything?

I thought that we can contrl our emotions, but I now realize that I was only going off of personal experience.

P.S. Think of this as my reply to your post in the Suicide thread, Smurf! :D ;)

[marleylinguistics]

depends on your definition of control, i dont beleive we can. because nothing truely ever goes the way we think it will. you should go to essays and read the one about the cosmic joke. i liked it and think it makes alot of sense. everytime you think you have something under control, the universe goes and fs it up for you. :lol:

[scameter]

Control is choice. We cannot control what we feel, for instance, because we do not choose what we feel or how we feel it. We are capable, however, of knowing what effects a certain emotion, and we can thus engineer a situation to effect a desired emotion, such as a horror movie being designed to evoke fear. We control what we choose, and so the thing we have most control over is our actions, although even they can be without choice, and so beyond control. Training and discpline adds ability to control.

[namtso]

I thought that we can contrl our emotions, but I now realize that I was only going off of personal experience. - SFT
I do believe that we can control our reactions to things. I do also believe that we can control the intensity of emotional response, I know without a doubt that I've made progress in this regard. It is most obvious when I'm interacting with my parents. I'm not nearly as quick to anger as I used to be when talking about a difficult subject with either of them. In fact I rarely show anger at all to my Mother any more which is a huge change from when I was younger. As far as completely eliminating a particular emotional response, I don't know. However, force of will can most definitely be controlled. You absolutely have the ability to set a goal and then decide to work like heck to reach it. I've most definitely done that too. That's certainly a control of sorts, isn't it?

[scameter]

I do believe that we can control our reactions to things. I do also believe that we can control the intensity of emotional response, I know without a doubt that I've made progress in this regard. It is most obvious when I'm interacting with my parents. I'm not nearly as quick to anger as I used to be when talking about a difficult subject with either of them. In fact I rarely show anger at all to my Mother any more which is a huge change from when I was younger.

And that is engineering the situation, as I discussed earlier.

this becomes easier once one has pondered on 'why' one is really angry - why this event or another - rather than that event or another

And once this is realized, we cannot prevent at all what emotions we feel or even how much, but we can engineer the situation and our state of being to influence how much of that particular emotion we feel, and most especially how much (if at all) that we act on it.

[namtso]

I do believe that we can control our reactions to things. I do also believe that we can control the intensity of emotional response, I know without a doubt that I've made progress in this regard. It is most obvious when I'm interacting with my parents. I'm not nearly as quick to anger as I used to be when talking about a difficult subject with either of them. In fact I rarely show anger at all to my Mother any more which is a huge change from when I was younger. - namtsoAnd that is engineering the situation, as I discussed earlier.
- scameter

What I meant was that regardless of the situation, we can change or minimize our reactions to those things. So two people can be watching that same horror movie but one will get real tense and scared and the other will maybe not have as strong a reaction. The event being the same, the reactions being different. I wouldn't define that as engineering the situation, only modifying one's reaction to that situation.

[scameter]

Indeed. Excuse my incorrect conclusion. What you speak of is control; it is keeping a clear mind through effort and thought, and keeping the mind on the actual, instead of the conceptual and emotional. As the code of the Jedi says, "There is no emotion, there is peace... There is no passion, there is serenity."

[______]

As the code of the Jedi says, "There is no emotion, there is peace... There is no passion, there is serenity."
George Lucas found inspiration for the Jedi in the Buddhist principles! :D

[namtso]

"Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering."
Yoda

[______]

"...suffering leads to the dark side."
-Yoda

:D

[MidnightSun]

"Evil begins in there, where is no love" - Unknown

I was reading to your "yoda stuff" and suddently remembered this quote.

[______]

Yoda's one of the great sages of our time! :D

[MidnightSun]

Actually he's more like a sage of future.

[scameter]

George Lucas found inspiration for the Jedi in the Buddhist principles!

But not exclusively. He also studied Taoism, Christianity, Jainism, and many mythologies and philosophies.

"...suffering leads to the dark side."
-Yoda

I don't remember him saying that.

Actually he's more like a sage of future.

"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." :D

[______]

"...suffering leads to the dark side."
-Yoda
I don't remember him saying that.
I believe he said it in Ep. II, if not that exact quote then one very similar to it. (Go Yoda!)

"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."
Then he's the oldest sage? He certainly lived longest! :D

[scameter]

I believe he said it in Ep. II, if not that exact quote then one very similar to it. (Go Yoda!)

Hmm.. I never remember that. In Episode 1, he said Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. But I never remember him saying suffering leads to the dark side. Suffering is a product of the dark side, and apart of being on the path of the dark side, but does not come from the dark side. Or, at least, doesn't lead to it, even if suffering does come from it.

Then he's the oldest sage? He certainly lived longest!

:P I meant that to what midnight said, about him being a sage of the future. Although mostly as a joke.

[______]

Hmm.. I never remember that. In Episode 1, he said Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. But I never remember him saying suffering leads to the dark side. Suffering is a product of the dark side, and apart of being on the path of the dark side, but does not come from the dark side. Or, at least, doesn't lead to it, even if suffering does come from it.
:dunno:

[WanderingTaoist]

By the way, _____, you have the most Buddhist name I have ever encountered ^_^. Well done! :D

If nothing else, we can control our attitude and our response to life. "Response" should be taken very generally here, not even really meaning emotions. How you handle your emotions, and your reactions to them (i.e. surpressing them, letting them loose, etc) is part of response. I guess what I'm saying is that one can control one's outlook.

Personally I think there's also more we can control than merely our outlook but out look is the most important, and focal point for controling other factors. Still, the things that are out of our control vastly out number the things that are in our control.

I also think people are far too obsessed these days with controlling things they either a) can't control or B) have no need to control. Letting go of what you can't control, and doing so with complete trust in the unfolding flow of events is one of the most challenging things anyone can ever accomplish, precisely because it is "accomplished" by not accomplishing.

[scameter]

I agree. But, of course I would... you're a Taoist, and much of my philosophy is centered on Taoist ideas. :D

[______]

By the way, _____, you have the most Buddhist name I have ever encountered . Well done!
:unsure: "Most" Buddhist?

[Starry_Canopy]

Most __________ :D

[Thomas Knierim]

dashes: Are human beings able to control anything?

That's basically the age old free will question, isn't it? Do we have free will? I'd say it is a matter of perspective. Depending on what philosophical vantage point you choose, human volition ranges from metaphysical souvereignty to robotic determinism.

Apropos control: It seems that the spammers are seizing control of this particular forum. A few months ago we had spam once every week. Now there are several every day. Looks like I have to upgrade to DEF CON 3 fairly soon.

Cheers, Thomas

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

It seems to me that it isn't an either/or but paradoxically both. We have all the control we were given, and we use our control to the full extent that we "choose" based on genetic and environmental influence (including the internal environment of precident thoughts).

[namtso]

Elizabeth Isabelle, scary avatar, yikes! Planning on drawing somebody into your web? That isn't a Black Widow spider, is it? (ha ha)

http://www.geocities.com/elemental3/ElizabethIsabelleSpiderav-1552.jpg

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

No, it's a black and yellow garden spider - quite large - I saw it halfway across my back yard one morning, and that was as close as I dared to get to it to take a picture. Black widows are only about the size of a small pin head (unless they are full of eggs).

I think it is a good picture of perspective - the spider up close, the tree tops further away, the clouds far aboe, and the sky beyone that. Isn't much of philosophy about perspective?

[namtso]

Black Widows in California are bigger and the red hour glass on their stomach is super well defined and real red. I've seen a few up close at a house I used to live in out there. Now, out here in Georgia we have the Brown Recluse. It's always something, isn't it.

Isn't much of philosophy about perspective?
Yes, and multi-level meanings. Why'd you choose that for an avatar? I'm definitely on high alert!

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Yes, we have brown recluses here in Florida, too.

Why'd you choose that for an avatar?

Because it says perspective, it's natural, and I like how it looks. Although I have half a mind to change it to this one after someone commented that this frog that I found in my driveway looks like he is about to spout wisdom:


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a127/problemsolver42-47/frogface.jpg

[namtso]

Because it says perspective, it's natural, and I like how it looks. Although I have half a mind to change it to this one after someone commented that this frog that I found in my driveway looks like he is about to spout wisdom:

Alright, who gave you my photo?

What would he say? "Impermanence!!!" Like the ducks in the Sukhavati Paradise maybe?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

What would he say? "Impermanence!!!" Like the ducks in the Sukhavati Paradise maybe?
:lol:

Alright, who gave you my photo?
Is there a prince in there? :D

[namtso]

Alright, who gave you my photo? Is there a prince in there?
Not likely. I'll be lucky if I make it out of here (this life) just as a human being. Which brings us back to the original subject of control. It all begins and ends between the ears I think, the rest is details. Impulsive anger is the deadly sin I'm apparently tasked with getting under control. Comes out mostly in traffic, less and less each year, I think so at least.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Impulsive anger is the deadly sin I'm apparently tasked with getting under control. Comes out mostly in traffic, less and less each year, I think so at least.

I actually used to have a problem with traffic anger, too. For me, playing a recording of Celtic bagpipe music rather loudly helped immensely.

What resolves my anger the best under any situation is understanding. Traffic anger, and a lot of other anger at other humans, is usually resolvable by really understanding that sometimes the other person really is an idiot. It isn't just a matter of calling them an idiot, but realizing that is really what they are when they do some really stupid stuff. If you knew that someone was mentally retarded, you would not be angry at them. People do not wear their IQs on their forehead, so we have to look at them with understanding. The average IQ is only 100. Recognize what -your IQ (http://www.iqtest.com) - (link to a decent free test) is, and realize that the average person out there isn't so bright. Recognize in addition to that, that one may have an IQ that is 20 - 30 points below average and still not be considered retarded. The people on this board are pretty bringht, so any of us could reasonably consider that anyone we encounter could easily be literally half as intelligent as we are. Kind of makes it seem silly to get angry at them, doesn't it?

[namtso]

I actually used to have a problem with traffic anger, too. For me, playing a recording of Celtic bagpipe music rather loudly helped immensely. - Elizabeth Isabelle
I fear that would have the opposite effect on me. I've seen Braveheart too many times.

[locomotive]

"Kind of makes it seem silly to get angry at them, doesn't it? "

Them beeing dumb has nothing to do with the fact that you don't like what is happening on the road, does it?

edit:lol at namtso

[WanderingTaoist]

I fear that would have the opposite effect on me. I've seen Braveheart too many times.

:lol:

If I'm ever stuck in traffic and I hear someone go "FREEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I'll just spare myself the trouble and pull over to the side of the road :D

Them beeing dumb has nothing to do with the fact that you don't like what is happening on the road, does it?

Well, their being dumb might definitely have an effect on what's happening on the road, but getting angry at them will a) not make them less dumb, b ) will not improve conditions on the road, and c) might actually make things worse if you get mad enough.

I'd also agree with Elizabeth; I'm not so sure I'd classify everyone whose driving skills leave something to be desired as dumb. Maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're a really wonderful, kind, amazing, intelligent, sensitive individual, whose only real fault is that they drive erratically.

And if they are a truly confused, embittered, angry individual, well, then they deserve my compassion, and probably my help. I'm definitely not so perfect myself, and would appreciate other people's understanding!


"Most" Buddhist? :unsure:

Most "______"! :D

Heh, well, definitely Starry_Canopy's correction, then! :)

[Starry_Canopy]

I'd also agree with Elizabeth; I'm not so sure I'd classify everyone whose driving skills leave something to be desired as dumb. Maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're a really wonderful, kind, amazing, intelligent, sensitive individual, whose only real fault is that they drive erratically.

And if they are a truly confused, embittered, angry individual, well, then they deserve my compassion, and probably my help. I'm definitely not so perfect myself, and would appreciate other people's understanding!


Is compassion the alternative to anger; the option a spiritual person exercises?

[namtso]

I have to try and have a serious talk with myself in traffic sometimes. The first challenge is always to catch myself before really losing my temper. It's essentially just conditioning but just because it's simple doesn't make it a whole lot easier. But if I can catch myself, take a deep and deliberate breath, then I'll try to remind myself of the obvious things like:

1. I drove like Ricky Racer when I was young and I am sure I made a lot of people mad, in fact I know I did. Some of them probably thought that they'd like to punch my lights out, but they exercised self control and didn't so I should try to return the favor to the human race. (I used to play my music very loud too and now it drives me nuts when other people do it.)

2. Maybe they had an exceptionally bad day at work or a very heated argument with someone and they are already seeing red. They are venting off anger that is not intentionally directed at me at all. I should help by just staying out of their way and giving them a chance to cool off. Furthermore, if I add to their anger, some third party might get hurt in an accident as a result and I would have been a contributor to the situation.

3. How is my getting involved in some accident on the road going to benefit me in any way at all?

4. The person is late for an extremely important appointment or late for work and they are frantic to make it on time. They might not normally drive that way and their intention was not to cause problems for me at all. Maybe they got a warning that if they're late for work one more time they are getting fired.

5. Someone close to the person is sick or was in an accident and they're in a hurry to get to the hospital.

6. Hundreds of other reasons ..


Now sometimes it seems as if someone has decided you did something to slow them down or whatever and they clearly are intentionally messing with you. If that's the case, the only thing I can reflect on is "do I really want to wreck my vehicle or get in some adolescent brawl?" Worse still, it might be some guy who really lives for brawling or is quick to go for his hand gun when he's mad and in that case I really shouldn't be messing with him. And especially if it's two guys involved, these confrontations escalate pretty fast. Nothing good can come from it and some guys are very well trained in hand to hand.