Why Can't We All Just Get Along?

[______]

"I know it's really cliché to say, but why can't we all just get along? Is it just human nature to destroy ourselves? Are human beings ultimately savage creatures? We are the only animals on the planet--as far as we know--that are aware of being aware. Again, as far as we know, we're the only ones with a conscience. We are the only animals to have developed a society based on the exchange of paper and metal for such things as food (and) shelter. We will also kill one another over such impermanent and unimportant objects. The three major "war causers" (at least as I see it) among (mankind) are: money, land, and religion."
-from one of my ramblings journals

[Thomas Knierim]

Underscores: Is it just human nature to destroy ourselves?

The jury is out on that. We definitely have the capability. On the other hand, we also have the capability to create the most exalted state of existence that a species has ever experienced on this planet.

Underscores: The three major "war causers" (at least as I see it) among (mankind) are: money, land, and religion."

Yeah, divisive forces indeed. Add nationality, race, and tribe to that.

The three causes of all suffering are: hatred, greed, and desire. The root cause of these is ignorance. But you already knew that.

Cheers, Thomas

[namtso]

The three causes of all suffering are: hatred, greed, and desire. The root cause of these is ignorance. But you already knew that. - Thomas
And the less educated, such as myself, are more easily controlled by the more educated and more powerful who are operating on those first three.

But where does fear factor in here as one of the primary base motivating factors to human discord? And lack of trust born of that fear. Lack of trust is a huge issue with me but I've got some personal real life experience that backs it up. I'm tempted to quote Yoda here in regard to "Fear is the path to the dark side.."

[Thomas Knierim]

namtso: But where does fear factor in here as one of the primary base motivating factors to human discord?

Fear is factored into the "hatred" department of the three poisons. The original Sanskrit/Pali word for "hatred" can also be translated as "aversion", or "dislike", so fear is a form of aversion.

Cheers, Thomas

[bito]

The three causes of all suffering are: hatred, greed, and desire. The root cause of these is ignorance.

we more often than we know project the 'wrongness' or 'error' or 'fear' in ourselves unto others then since they are now the ones 'causing' the problem (due to our projection) we feel enraged and therefore strike out in order to 'defend' ourselves

Ignorance of our true nature and projection are twins players.

Realization of our true nature does not immediately eliminate projection, this takes practice, but it does end the desire to strike out in defense of ourselves, for we realize there is no 'my (separate) self' to defend.

The ultimate ideal is to be completely absorbed 'into' the realization of our nondual nature, resulting in no projection whatsoever.

There is a saying (I don't recall the source) that states that excess is the palace to wisdom. If this is true about projection, there is much wisdom being incubated in the world at this very moment!

:boxing: :boxing: :blink: :lol: :)

[Fool Zero]

bito -- re excess and wisdom:

That would be, "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom" from Proverbs of Hell by William Blake. He also said, "You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough."

[bito]

That would be, "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom" from Proverbs of Hell by William Blake. He also said, "You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough."

Blake was one wiseass of a mystic. Thanks for the memory jog, FZ.

[scameter]

Is it just human nature to destroy ourselves?

Definitely. And I believe it is both because of our inevitable entrapment to only being able to retain one focus at a time, even if we're capable of switching focuses quickly, and that our minds and bodies are different, and so contend.

We will also kill one another over such impermanent and unimportant objects. The three major "war causers" (at least as I see it) among (mankind) are: money, land, and religion."

Every war is caused by selfishness; if we are willing to kill another human being over anything, conceptual or real, it is because we believe our individual selves capable of ending the life of another individual, alive human self. We choose it, because we believe in ourselves enough to do it.

On the other hand, we also have the capability to create the most exalted state of existence that a species has ever experienced on this planet.

And it's unfortunate how often we choose selfishness over this.

[liquidharmony]

Its not just human nature to destroy each other. All throughout the animal kingdom, species will fight for what they believe to be their's. Its a part of life that has probably existed since before the dinosaurs. Humans just do it over pety stuff. Sometimes I wish I had the leisure of ignorance that animals have. Oh to be a dolphin and swim in the ocean all day. I for one would not fight for any material item or even any cause. But I am only human and would not hesitate to defend the ones I love.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

People need to understand each other, and for that people need to be understanding of each other.

________ wrote: We are the only animals on the planet--as far as we know--that are aware of being aware.

Some philosophers are still debating if any people other than a few (and usually the philosophers debating this count themselves amongst the few) are actually aware or which people they would consider to be in the human realm. Who knows - people could be the least philosophically advanced creatures on the planet. Who is to say for sure that the giraffe is not the wisest of all? Giraffes don't go to war, hold jobs working for unethical employers, or any of many other questionable activities people do. They could be so in touch with Ultimate Reality that they are just fine with life as it is, and be aware of it. Humans are barely willing to try to understand their spouses much less other people or animals. Only the beginnings of understanding about the world of whales, porpoises, and other life forms have been tapped.

It is good that you added the caveat "as far as we know" but few would even go that far.

Before we learn to understand, we must first understand how much we do not understand.

[Steven Coyle]

psyche -

What do you think the essence of the master's saying was?

[Steven Coyle]

(I was going to give my opinion of your opinion...)

[______]

dolphins are super intelligent i would not doubt their awareness
I agree. Many animals are intelligent and I would consider all of them aware, but we can not know if they are aware that they are aware.

[namtso]

dolphins are super intelligent i would not doubt their awareness I agree. Many animals are intelligent and I would consider all of them aware, but we can not know if they are aware that they are aware.

They did do an experiment where they painted marks on the side of some dolphins and then put a big mirror in the tank. The Dolphins kept looking in the mirror at their sides. I think it may have proved that they recognized themselves in their reflection. I don't know if that goes very far regarding a sort of conceptual self awareness...
http://www.earthtrust.org/delbook.html

[Steven Coyle]

psyche -

I agree with your opinion.

The student broke through the semantics of "...nature of the mind" with his/her reply:

"nothing"

Though, there is also a deeper lesson here.

(ahem)

:rolleyes:

Once realized, emptiness includes the entire spectrum of the universe. Be it, insects, a pool of water, a cloud, a noise. This is at the heart of all creative thinking, though we often don't realize it.

When Zen Masters say "Form is emptiness. Emptiness is Form" this is the phenomenon they are refering to. So the question of whether the universe is conscious "outside of our mind" isn't necessary. With emptiness, the universe is your mind.

Alan Watts used to say that "A "thing" is a think..."

[liquidharmony]

"dolphins are super intelligent i would not doubt their awareness"

I wasnt implying that dolphins were in any way unintelligent. I didnt mean ignorant in a negative way. I used dolphins as my example because i heard something one time.

A man was watching a group of dolphins swimming in the ocean one day and said "stupid fish, all you do is swim and play in the ocean all day."
The dolphins replied " stupid humans, you dont."

well it was something like that. I was young but this always stuck with me.

[______]

A man was watching a group of dolphins swimming in the ocean one day and said "stupid fish, all you do is swim and play in the ocean all day."
The dolphins replied " stupid humans, you dont."
This is great!

I have a rambling somewhere that addresses this. Give me a minute to find it....

[Steven Coyle]

liquidharmony,

Cool name.

:peace:

[______]

Found it!
"Everyone talks about living life to the fullest. Make evry moment count. Live like no tommorrow. Enjoy the infinite now. Yet, very few tend to follow this philosophy. Most Americans can't even do what they wish with their lives. They will work their whole life then die into obsurity. Only a select few make a true impact on human society. Why? We are all so interconnected. Shouldn't all of us make a 'splash'? Even if the splash is a ripple in history, why do more and more people wait for retirement to finally live their lives or until a life threatening illness to affect them. By the time one can retire, over half their life has already been spent. Granted this won't be our only--or last--lifetime, but each one should be lived!"

[______]

I go on to say how my only regret is not following this philosophy to the "t". I try my best, but I know I could do a lot better. We all could.

[Starry_Canopy]

I go on to say how my only regret is not following this philosophy to the "t". I try my best, but I know I could do a lot better. We all could.

Yes, and the trouble sometimes is that if it is done faithfully the wolf comes to the door....

[______]

If done completly, the wolf is a cute pup at which we smile as it passes us by.

[Starry_Canopy]

The wolf actually came to my door! But the trouble was that I was married and had kids and so I couldn't carry on, converting it to a cute pup, but had to drive it away through a re-entry into the dog eat dog world :)

[namtso]

there was a movie a long time ago called 'liquid sky' - psyche
Ok, that movie is just strange ... (http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Sky-Anne-Carlisle/dp/6305660328/sr=11-1/qid=1162465702/ref=sr_11_1/102-2272933-8490556)

good-bye and thanks for all the fish - 'the hitchhiker's quide to the galaxy'
Saw this one too, also very strange (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0371724/). Mos Def is a trip. Saw him in the movie <span style='color:blue'>Hackers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113243/). First time I ever saw Angelina Jolie was in Hackers. Mos Def was great in The Italian Job (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317740/) too.</span>

If done completly, the wolf is a cute pup at which we smile as it passes us by. - SFT
Can you explain this for me? I don't want to miss the point.

[______]

@ nam
The wolf in question is hardship or an issue of some type that distracts from living life as we were meant to live it. When one is truly living life to the fullest, they can deal with it without getting sucked into the ways of the world. I suspect the wolf that visited Starry was on steriods! :D

[Starry_Canopy]

I suspect the wolf that visited Starry was on steriods! :D

You bet it was! And it was salivating somewhat awfully, too! :D

[namtso]

@ nam
The wolf in question is hardship or an issue of some type that distracts from living life as we were meant to live it. When one is truly living life to the fullest, they can deal with it without getting sucked into the ways of the world. I suspect the wolf that visited Starry was on steriods!
That would be the extraordinary person for sure that could do that!

The Dalai Lama maintains his calm composure and it sure seems like he doesn't harbor any resentment or anger which is admirable. At the same time the Tibetans lost their country because they couldn't defend it. What do you see as being the lesson in that? I'm not being facetious here, that's a serious question I've wondered about for a long time. When an entire nation goes peaceful, they also become vulnerable.

[Steven Coyle]

psyche -

(Thank you for your compliments a few days ago.)

:scatter:

[Fool Zero]

Just wanted you to know I'm enjoying lurking in this topic. So far I haven't come up with anything I've wanted to add.

{Reminds me of the kid who still hasn't started talking by the time he's five. Parents are frantic, drag him to specialists who find nothing wrong. One day he suddenly says, "This soup is too salty." Parents ask, "Why didn't you say anything before?" "Until now," kid replies, "everything was fine.")

[Starry_Canopy]

At the same time the Tibetans lost their country because they couldn't defend it. When an entire nation goes peaceful, they also become vulnerable.

True, Nam. It's the same thing as the 'turn the other cheek' principle. In Tibet, not only have they lost their independence, that country is being transformed right in front of their eyes in ways that suit the occupiers better then the localites, who are repressed as thoroughly as any people can.

The times that we are in are unrighteous times when might is right and cleverness is valued more than genuineness. In such times, those who would strictly abide by their conscience have no choice but to undergo indignities and hardships at the hands of their thicker skinned and remorseless bretheren.

All religions predicted that this is how things will deteriorate till the 'second coming' of the upholder of 'Dharma'. It is as if, intrinsically, mankind is still in a state of 'independence' mentality rather than 'interdependence'.

[Fool Zero]

Starry_Canopy:
The times that we are in are unrighteous times when might is right and cleverness is valued more than genuineness. In such times, those who would strictly abide by their conscience have no choice but to undergo indignities and hardships at the hands of their thicker skinned and remorseless bretheren.

For some reason, all the other times that I can think of also seem to fit this description. Have there actually been righteous times or are we just selecting out certain parts that we'd like to remember as righteous?

I once came across a book called The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible. I doubt that it dealt with righteousness at all but I do remember the author pointing out that in the 19th century New York City had no cars and no car exhaust problem. What it had instead were thousands of horses and carriages, great steaming mountains of horse manure and swarms of flies.

[namtso]

This is a letter/email, minimally edited for personal information, that I sent to a friend of mine this morning. It seemed appropriate for this thread.


That was a great question you asked me last night, why do I not just go for the selfish life and get all that I can for myself. My instinctual answer was that maybe it was my upbringing. That actually is true. But I realize that the reason is the awareness of the interconnectedness of everyone in human society, which is a lesson that my Mother did teach me. Boils down to the Golden Rule, treat others as you would want to be treated yourself. Seems simple but the reality is that trends in society do happen and sometimes very quickly. The more people there are in your neighborhood, city etc. that are selfish and just want to get what they can for themselves, the more popular it gets, the more stressful life becomes for the people living in that neighborhood. Also, people react to fear very quickly. If they fear that a dangerous element is moving into a neighborhood, they change their behavior very quickly, get much more closed off and suspicious of everyone they encounter. Tony grew up in New York City. He's used to it and he seems to like that fast paced, hyper feel of the city. It would get on my nerves after a while and I sincerely doubt that I'd like living in New York for very long. That's probably largely because I grew up in a beach city and life was more sedate, uneventful there. It's what I'm used to and it's what I like. There was some crime like anywhere else but it was by no means a dangerous place to live. That's one reason why I choose to live in those types of cities. They aren't jam packed with people crawling all over each other but the cities still have all the necessary conveniences I'm used to.

Anyhow, your question was great food for thought. I think what it boils down to for me is that every single person makes a choice. They choose what sort of person they think they should be, for whatever reason. It might be their parents or church or school that taught a person to be respectful, don't break the law, don't victimize people etc. The reality is that every single person does have an influence on the other people they come into contact with. And human beings naturally react to the people they come into contact with. If you go into a rough city you naturally become a little more aware of your immediate surroundings. You may get more tense, walk a little faster to get to wherever you're going, and distrust anyone who approaches you for any reason. If you are like me, you would suspect that a large percentage of the people in a rough city who would approach you are looking to work some scam to get money or worse. That's actually how a person has to live their life when they live in the worse parts of L.A. County. Its survival instinct and it's necessary to make it through ok. The opposite phenomenon is also true. If you live in a nice town and you notice that most people you run into are calm, respectful, friendly etc., you most likely also relax and just start to enjoy your days there a lot more. When you aren't quickly and nervously streaking from your parked car to the entrance of a store or something, hoping not to get accosted by some panhandler or drug dealer, life is quite a bit more relaxed. It's enjoyable. Every single person who acts in a respectful, non-threatening and friendly manner is a direct contributor to that environment. I have noticed that lately in my life I'm much more confident and relaxed around people that I've just met. I think that's in part because I feel that I've become fairly skilled at doing a "quick read" of personality types and I generally know whether or not a person is a threat. Not always of course but most of the time. But I have even changed my attitude to people at the drive through windows of fast food places. And it's really been obvious to me how differently people respond to me now compared to how they used to when I used to be my usual stone faced sour puss. I used to be much more closed off than I am now. I still slide back into that when I'm extremely tired, had a particularly nasty argument with someone or I'm in a neighborhood that looks kind of rough. In the last several years I've even asked people at the drive through windows how they are doing (mostly the girls, they're more fun) or just made friendly comments here or there and I've discovered that they start to get to know me after several visits and get to be real friendly. I know that you know what that's like because you seem to be very friendly with most everyone. This phenomena is probably second nature to you, it wasn't with me, all the way back since I was very young. I was always more shy and closed off when I was younger. I've only gotten a lot friendlier with strangers maybe in the last ten years or less. I guess what I'm getting at is that the idea you reap what you sow is not only a universal truth in those things that are directly related to your own day to day life, like earning a living, associating with decent people, even just properly maintaining your truck, it is also true in the greater context of the community. It's real. It's just difficult for some people, not you or I, but some folks, to see right away. I personally think that's where the institutions come in whether it be the institution of parenthood, school or church. They teach morality, ethics etc. and the end effect is that more often than not it does produce a person who appreciates how that affects their personal life and their community. I think a secondary effect is that it creates a balanced and productive society which is good for the economy too. If you are not afraid to even just get to school or work, you have more energy and ability to focus on school and work. That makes for a more productive society. That's the economic tie in that I mentioned last night. Anyhow, it's great for me to get to answer these types of questions because it inspires me to learn or remember what I personally think about something.

[jinxposed]

[font=Optima]i agree with you, psyche about what you said about projection. i personally believe that humanity was meant for much better than the old and tired concept of divide and conquer. why are we trying to divide what we know to be connected!?</span>

[Starry_Canopy]

Hi Fool Zero

Sorry I took a long time to answer. The reason is that I have real free time to think of things and answer only during my weekends. Please excuse this limitation.

Apropos:
I once came across a book called The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible. I doubt that it dealt with righteousness at all but I do remember the author pointing out that in the 19th century New York City had no cars and no car exhaust problem. What it had instead were thousands of horses and carriages, great steaming mountains of horse manure and swarms of flies.

Yes, as far as the material quality of life is concerned, mankind has progressed by leaps and bounds, though the benefits of the progress have not reached large portions of the population, who are, it seems, progressively living in harsher and harsher environments, such as in Africa.

The detrioration in our lives seems to be in our moral values. The predictions in the religious works about deteriorating conditions also had to do, I think, with our moral make up. Some of the signs of deterioration, from the Hindu Shastras, after which the next avatar would come, were like this:

- A physical bath would come to be considered as cleanliness more than spiritual and mental cleanliness (happening now)

- Exploitation of others/ trickery would lead to wealth more than the intrinsic worth of one's actions (happening now)

- Views backed by physical/ material might would be considered right (happening now)

- Man will live off his children (does this refer to the pension plans?)

- Men will marry their daughters (does this refer to paedophilia?)

- Man will eat man (Would this happen, if, due to global warming or some other cathastrophe such as a nuclear global war, there is no other source of food left?)

- People will be only knee high tall (after the genetic impact of a global nuclear war? But we don't know which knee height, from which millenia more than 6000 years back this refers to)

- There will be no hair on the human body (again, after a global nuclear war?)

- Life expectancy would be only about 40 years (same as above)

[Fool Zero]

Hi SC, no reason to apologize. I assume that everyone here will reply if and when they're ready to, whatever that (ready) may include.

I used a material example only because I didn't expect to be able to find the one I would have preferred to use. There's a halfway famous quote I've come across several times over the years (though not recently), to the effect that youth no longer respect their elders, merchants cheat, politicians lie, everything's going to hell. Maybe you've seen it too. The punch line is that it's something like 2500 years old (Greek, I think).

While hunting for it I came across a page of similar rants but not, I think, the one I remember. One of the others turned out to be from an Egyptian tomb, about 10,000 years old.

[tmwq4]

we can add the policies of our government as a matter which intervene our life

[WanderingTaoist]

I used a material example only because I didn't expect to be able to find the one I would have preferred to use. There's a halfway famous quote I've come across several times over the years (though not recently), to the effect that youth no longer respect their elders, merchants cheat, politicians lie, everything's going to hell. Maybe you've seen it too. The punch line is that it's something like 2500 years old (Greek, I think).

While hunting for it I came across a page of similar rants but not, I think, the one I remember. One of the others turned out to be from an Egyptian tomb, about 10,000 years old.

"There is nothing new under the sun....all is vanity upon vanity."

(The Book of Ecclesiastes)

I think the above quote (from Qoholeth, the "Jewish Lao-Tzu"! :D ) and the examples you have raised, Fool Zero, essentially prove that human nature has remained unchanged during our brief time here on planet Earth.

To Starry_Canopy, it may be as you say; I do not know. While your analysis is interesting, I'm somewhat hesitant to go drawing connections between ancient prophecies to modern life; human nature has essentially remained unchanged and so one could interpret a prophecy to apply to any time. American and European Christians certainly did quite a bit of that in the 19th century, but the world went on as before. One can attribute a prophecy to refer to any time period, and perhaps that is indeed the point of all prophecies, to relate our present situation to an eternal truth, or if that strikes somebody as too Platonist than to reveal the truth within the current situation.

Human nature is like a building: savegry is the foundation. The foundation of a building is just as natural to the building as the roof or the top floor, and yet if one remains only with the foundation, it is incomplete. Just an individual must learn to settle down out of the rambunctiousness of childhood, so too must we as a species learn to settle down out of the harsh desires and selfishness. We all are born with this, but we are not condemned to it. It is opaqueness, it is ignorance, it is incompleteness. We must settle it, or rather, we must allow it to settle within us.

And it must start individually, because we
can monkey around with institutions and great plans all we want, but these creations are only as good as their creators. Hence why in improving yourself, you improve the world.

The building analogy is rather imperfect, so don't take it too far. The major point is that these base qualities within us are natural, but they are not the whole of human nature. Serenity, wisdom, piety, reason, and humor are as natural to us as greed, selfisheness, and aggressiveness.

[WanderingTaoist]

"Ruin and recovering are both from within."– Epictetus

*sigh*....who doesn't love Epictetus?