Dreams

[______]

I've recently come across the facination with dreams. From a psychological standpoint, I know almost nothing. From my own personal ramblings (which I may post a bit of if I can find my notebook...) they seem like alternate realities created entirely by us, but none the less real.

I'm sure there are plenty here who understand more and I'd like to hear any information you may have to offer. All I can do on my own is continue to stumble in the dark and dream of seeing things clearly.

[Michael]

Which is the dream, which the waking?

Until I have that figured I can't answer. But if you read Herman Hesse's Siddarthra you'll find a beautiful section where he deals with the issue of dreams and reality.

Excellent novel of a spiritual journey.

[Winfried]

Dreams could be used as a sort of escape. I've been getting into lucid dreaming lately (more info, see http://www.dreamviews.com/). It's nice to be in a world where YOU control everything. But it could get rather addictive, so watch out. ;)

[spiritual_emergency]

Morningside
The old man died
And no one cried
They simply turned away
And when he died
He left a table made of nails and pride
And with his hands he carved these words inside
For my children

Morning light
Morning bright
I spent the night
With dreams that make you weep
Morning time
Wash away the sadness from these eyes of mine
For I recall the words the old man signed
For my children


Alpha Aurigae: Which is the dream, which the waking?

Good question.

[Starry_Canopy]

This is a subject that is very intriguing.

Some people say that dreams play out unfinished businesses in our minds, like wish fulfilment and surfacing of repressed anxieties. This is the psychologists' view, mainly.

Some people say that when the body rests, the stresses stored in it get relieved. It is like stresses in an electronic circuit getting relieved when the power is shut off and its ends shorted or earthed. Or like the imperfections in the molecular lattice of a crystal rising to the surface and getting out when the crystal is allowed to 'rest' free of outside forces. When these bodily stress releases take place, they are said to be reflected as thought currents in our brain since the brain and the body are mapped on to each other, wth each and every part of the body connected to a corresponding part of the brain, direcly or through the spinal cord. This pattern of passive thought currents, resulting from bodily stress releases when we sleep, is said to be dreaming. This is a view held by spiritual thinkers who posited that we have four states of being:

- wakeful: body and mind both alert
- dreamless sleep: body and mind, both at rest
- dreaming: body alert, mind at rest (only passively reflecting what is going on in the body, not 'actively thinking')
- body at rest, mind alert (transcendental consciousness)

All the above seem to suggest that dreams are purely within us, that there are no 'outside' interferences/ inputs to them.

But, if that is true, how do you explain such phenomenon, as follow?

- My father and I both have had dreams, which we had told others about because they had been highly graphic and in a few days'/ weeks' time, what we had dreamed actually happened in real life, exactly as we had seen it happen in the dream.

- When my mother accompanied her friend to a "Bihar School of Yoga", the latter's acquaintance there, a nun, told my mom that she had dreamed a few days back that she would be visiting her. This nun was a senior nun there and it is unlikely that she was lying.

- I have read about dreams of spiritual aspirants in which they see a vision of their future gurus or are guided by other spiritual masters as to who their guru would be, before they later met their gurus face to face. In the latter case, when the aspirant met her guru, she, the guru, welcomed her saying that the spiritual master who came in the aspirant's dream had informed her, the guru, that so and so aspirant would be coming to her for her guidance.

It seems that the phenomenon of dreams is not a simple matter that can be resolved with my present knowledge of things.

[Steven Coyle]

Anyone seen the movie "Waking Life"?

www.wakinglifemovie.com

[______]

I have read somewhere (Argh! I wish I could remember where!) that dreams can be used in a sort of meditation (for very stable minds, mind you). I remember reading that it was like meditating 24/7. Meditate while conscious and unconscious. The text also said something about using dreams to "reprogram" the subconscious in any desired way. This would be very useful in generating unconditional love for beings you have never met spontaniously.

(still can't find my ramblings....)

[namtso]

The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep
- psyche

See, now you're just helping feed my book addiction. (It's on the way (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559391014/ref=ord_cart_shr/002-4552001-8136047?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance) ..)

[______]

Anyway, that man is in a better place these days.
Where's that? Japan? :lol:
See, now you're just helping feed my book addiction.
And you'll most likely never get past the cover! :lol: :lol: ;)

[spiritual_emergency]

Where's that? Japan?

If Japan is a less painful place to be then that's where he is. ;)

[______]

I only say Japan because I've always wanted to travel there. :D

[spiritual_emergency]

Japan, no doubt, is beautiful. Of course, there are a lot of beautiful places on this earth. I think the place I'd most like to visit is Turkey. Why? I don't know. I feel called there.

Here's to wishing the dreams of all fellow travelers come true. :thumbsup:

[TheObjectiveSubjective]

In dreams you are pure mind. No sensory imput stops you from amking your own reality. However even observing and studing them without being lucid is cool because you get to think "I wonder if this says anything about my sub-concisse?"(sp?)Dreams are cool. Lucid dreams are very cool. Reality is cool too, but only because it's more honest with you.

[______]

Reality is cool too, but only because it's more honest with you.
And the truth of your subconscious revealed through dreams isn't honest?

[prasathleo]

DREAMS
D-DESIRE
R-REMEMBER
E-EGO
A-ACTION
M-MEMORABLE
S-SYSTEM



"FLOW OF THOUGHTS"
FEAR AND LOVE, THIS IS THE BASIC OF THOUGHTS
EVRY THOUGHT CAME FROM ABOVE THE TWO THINGS

[Starry_Canopy]

what could be more honest than pure mind

Non-mind? :)

[Starry_Canopy]

Quite!

[bito]

My dream of meaning, approximately 1989ish:

I, without body, approached a house in the woods, and as I began walking on the pathway leading up to the door, the house, the pathway and the woods began morphing into liquid shapes. It became clear to me that this was my home of the old me, and as I opened the liquid door and walked down the liquid halls, my parents, who were darkish smiling shapes in the kitchen, smiled and waved at me, as if to wish me good luck or good fortune. They were both physically alive at the time of this dream.

I walked into the bathroom, but there were no walls or doors, only a mirror, and as I gazed into the mirror, it disappeared and I could see before me a glowing, pulsing light-outline of a house, and within this light-house were two light beings, intertwined and glowing and pulsing as brightly as the house itself.

I gazed upon these two light-beings and felt a surge of recognition, and at the moment of recognition without any concrete indentification, I turned and walked to what was the back of the liquid house I originally had entered. There before me was an empty grave and a gravestone marked with the name "Kennedy" (my grandmother's maiden name). I stood there for a bit, feeling what this was meant to say to me, and then, without revelation, I turned around to find myself facing an ocean.

"You must swim in this ocean", I said to myself, "and then, you shall know". At that point, I woke up.

[spiritual_emergency]

Thatsa dream with lotsa meatballs!! (By which I mean, it's a full meal and full meals need time to be digested.)

Dreams are interesting things and there are a number of ways to approach them. Some people actively study and interpret their dreams. Others just have them when they have them. I'm more of the latter. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to my dreams unless something in them calls me.

Sometimes when I dream I'm not sure if I'm dreaming a dream for me or a dream for someone else. Here's a dream that shares some elements in common with your dream above. I had it about a year ago and I still don't know if it was a dream that "belongs" to me or not...

The setting for this dream was a large modern city. In the dream I'm going somewhere with some family members: one of them is my mother's husband, the other two are my sister and brother-in-law. We all get into a car together -- two men/two women. My mother's husband is driving, I'm sitting beside him up front, my sister and brother-in-law are sitting in the back. The mood is casual but jovial. Wherever we're going it doesn't require a lot of luggage -- none of us are dressed out of the ordinary or carrying baggage with us. The feeling is as if we're going shopping or out for dinner, or something.

Anyway, we start driving, heading out of the city. Pretty soon we're surrounded by green hills and countryside. Other people in other cars are on the road with us and the road itself is of the variety that allows you to see far ahead. The scene becomes quite picturesque -- the sun rising between the rolling hills, the winding silver strip of highway, and straight ahead, a small village.

It's at this point that the dreamscape alters in a significant manner for I notice that the sun has grown bigger and brighter on the horizon -- as if it's moving towards us with incredible speed. It then "tips" itself foward. Golden light begins to spill down in a funnel shape, into the earth -- I can see happy faces and swirling leaves in the funnel shaped light. As the light strikes the ground, liquid bursts out of all the houses in the village -- the liquid is the color of gold. The water is pouring out of the open doors and windows, rapidly flooding the streets, yet everyone keeps driving their cars forward along the road. There is no fear as there might be if we really were approaching a flash flood; it's more like we're all mesmerized, fascinated by what we're seeing ahead of us.

I suddenly realize I am no longer in the front seat; I'm now in the back seat with my sister. We're rapidly approaching the rising water. The car rolls dramatically to one side as we plunge in. I hear my sister say, "This is it..."

I wake up.

Now I know that given some of the conversations of late that some parallels could be drawn but I'm not so sure they should. I had that dream on the 11th day of the 11th month, almost exactly one year ago. What does it mean? I don't exactly know. Was it meant for me? I don't exactly know. Who were all those other people in the other cars, the village itself? I don't exactly know. It was a dream that caught my attention though.

[bito]

s_e, definite similarities - houses, light, water, family members ... :unsure:

My house/mirror/light-beings/grave/ocean dream has been the one and only dream that has called to me for seeing, for understanding, for meaning-making, for digesting, as you say. What makes some dreams such powerful catalysts and others seem no more meaningful that watching a second-rate movie? Only we can answer that for ourselves.

As an aside, I dream in black and white and 'sense' the colours. The only exception were my light beings. They were a brilliant pulsing white-yellow.

[spiritual_emergency]

I loved the imagery of the light beings. Again, I don't know what it means but it sure is pretty.

[bito]

I loved the imagery of the light beings. .

At different times, this imagery meant different things.

What I have come to see, for me, is that the appearance of spiritual imagery was also the means for the dissolution of spiritual imagery. The images became subtler and subtler until, 'one day', they were no where to be found.

Again, I don't know what it means but it sure is pretty.

As is the imagery of your sun becoming liquid gold.

[bito]

'Dreams' of light, from The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying:

The Four Phases of Dharmata (the intrinsic nature of everything, the essence of things are they are) OR The Spontaneous Presentation of the Nature of Our Mind

In the bardo of dharmata, you take on a body of light. The first phase of this bardo is when "space dissolves into luminosity". Suddenly you become aware of a flowing vibrant world of sound, light, and colour. All the ordinary features of our familar environment have melted into an all-pervasive landscape of light. This is brilliantly clear and radiant, transparent and multicoloured, unlimited by any kind of dimension or direction, shimmering and constantly in motion. Its colours are the natural expression of the intrinsic elemental qualities of the mind: space is perceived as blue light, water as white, earth as yellow, fire as red and wind as green.

How stable these dazzling appearances of light are in the bardo of dharmata depends entirely upon what stability you have managed to attain in Togal practice. Only a real mastery of this practice will enable you to stabilize the experience and so use it to gain liberation. Otherwise, the bardo of dhamata will simply flash by like a bolt of lightning; you will not even know that it has occurred.

2. Union - the Deities

If you are unable to recognize this as the spontaneous play of Rigpa, the simple rays and colours then begin to integrate and coalesce into points of balls of light of different sizes, called tikle. Within them, the "mandalas of the peaceful and wrathful deities" appear, as enormous spherical concentrations of light seeming to occupy the whole of space.

This is the second phase, known as "luminosity dissolving into union," where the luminosity manifests in the form of buddhas or deities of various size, colour, and form, holding different attributes. The brilliant light they emanate is blinding and dazzling, the sound is tremendous, like the roaring of a thousand thunderclaps, and the rays and beams of light are like lasers, piercing everything. They unfold, taking on their own characteristic mandala pattern of five-fold clusters. This is a vision that fills the whole of your perception with such intensity that if you are unable to recognize it for what it is, it appears terrifying and threatening. From yourself and from the deities, very fine shafts of light stream out, joining your heart with theirs. Countless luminous spheres appear in their rays, which increase and the "roll up," as the deities dissolve into you.

3. Wisdom

If again you fail to recognize and gain stability, the next phase unfolds, called "union dissolving into wisdom."
Another shaft of light springs out from your heart and an enormous vision unfolds from it; however, every detail remains distinct and precise. This is the display of the various aspects of wisdom, which appear together in a show of unfurled carpets of light and resplendent spherical luminous tikles.

First, on a carpet of deep blue light appear shimmering tikles of sapphire blue, in patterns of five. Above that, on a carpet of white light, appear radiant tikles, white like crystal. Above, on a carpet of yellow light, appear golden tikles, and upon that a carpet of red light supports ruby red tikles. They are crowned by a radiant sphere like an outspread canopy made of peacock feathers.

This brilliant display of light is the manifestation of the five wisdoms: wisdom of all-encompassing space, mirror-like wisdom, equalizing wisdom, wisdom of discernment and all-accomplishing wisdom. But since the all-accomplishing wisdom is only perfected at the time of enlightenment, it does not appear yet. Therefore, there is no green carpet of light and tikcles, yet it is inherent within all the other colours. What is being manifested here is our potential of enlightenment, and the all-accomplishing wisdom will appear when we become a buddha.

If you do not attain liberation here through resting undistracted in the nature of mind, the carpets of light and their tikles, along with your Rigpa, all dissolve into the radiant sphere of light, which is like a canopy of peacock feathers.

4. Spontaneous Presence

This heralds the final phase of the bardo of dharmata, "wisdom dissolving into spontaneous presence." Now the whole of reality presents itself in one tremendous display. First the state of primordial purity dawns like an open, cloudless sky. Then the peaceful and wrathful deities appear, followed by the pure realms of the buddhas, and below them the six realms of samsaric existence.

The limitlessness of this vision is utterly beyond our ordinary imagination. Every possibility is presented from wisdom and liberation, to confusion and rebirth. At this point you will find yourself endowed with powers of clairvoyent perception and recollection. The entire vision then dissolves back into its original essence, like a tent collapsing once its ropes are cut.

[______]

The Four Phases of Dharmata (the intrinsic nature of everything, the essence of things are they are) OR The Spontaneous Presentation of the Nature of Our Mind
I've read about this in a text (can't remember the title at the moment) by HHDL, but I don't think he went into very much detail. Thank you for sharing, bito. :)

[______]

post intended only to bring up other post....

[namtso]

I've read about this in a text (can't remember the title at the moment) by HHDL - SFT
Is this it?
Dzogchen: The Heart Essence of the Great Perfection
http://www.amazon.com/Dzogchen-Heart-Essen...n/dp/1559392193 (http://www.amazon.com/Dzogchen-Heart-Essence-Great-Perfection/dp/1559392193)

[______]

No, that's not the one I'm talking about. I haven't read that one. I'm sure I'll dig it out of my dresser drawer and find out. Till then, I'll just attribute learning of the Four Phases of Dharmata to the Dalai Lama. :D

[spiritual_emergency]

SFT: I've recently come across the facination with dreams. From a psychological standpoint, I know almost nothing. From my own personal ramblings (which I may post a bit of if I can find my notebook...) they seem like alternate realities created entirely by us, but none the less real.

I came across the following in my recent wanderings and thought you might enjoy it SFT. I cannot think of any professional body who has done more work in understanding and interpreting the imagery of dreams than the Jungians. This article could serve as an introduction to the subject of Jungian dream analysis (http://www.kevinwilson.info/dream/jung.php) for you: The Islamic Cultural Unconscious in the Dreams of a Contemporary Muslim Man (http://www.jungnewyork.com/islamic.shtml)

[______]

Thank you s_e, I added that last link to my favorites. I'll dive into it when I can. :D

[oboe2damax]

check out: The Science of Sleep

a fascinating portrayal of the interaction of dreams, consciousness, and imagination through the art of film