The Paths Of Glory Lead But To The Grave

[Starry_Canopy]

"The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,
And all that beauty, all that wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour:-
The paths of glory lead but to the grave."

- Thomas Gray, in Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard

What difference does anything make? Including our discussions and sometimes raving arguments here? Is life "but a walking shaddow, a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more....full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" (Macbeth, Shakespeare)?

Apart from giving disturbing/ provocative thoughts like the one above to each other, or other experiences fated to extinction, either here or elsewhere, what the heck are we doing in our lives?

What the heck should we be doing in our lives? Why aren't we doing it?

For my part, I would love to find some meaning in my life by helping some unfortunate people, by joining some voluntary social life organization that s bringing bead for the hungry, education for the young, housing and medical care for the poor etc. But I dare not do that because I want my children to have me help them with funds to study well and gain a good exposure in order to be competitive in life. Ah, woe is me for being so selfish that only my children are dear to me among all children. Yet how can I foresake them when my parents did not forsake me? What's happening?

What's the solution for this state of afairs that we are now in?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I do not know your whole situation. Isn't there any way you could do both? Provide for your family, and perhaps (I do not know how old your children are) as part of your family time, you and your children do something to provide for the less fortunate?

[Starry_Canopy]

Thank you Elizabeth.

The problem is that there isn't time enough to do both. But I can solve that by earning more and contributing in cash what I can't do in kind.

The problem I wished to put up for discussion wasn't just my predicament, but, more generally, is life 'meaningless' as illustrated by quotes such as from Gray and Shakespeare? If not necessarily so, how could it be made meaningful?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Some people have a mission in life, others have the opportunity to create their own mission. Optimally, one's work and one's mission should coincide, but sometimes one can not survive off the fruits of one's mission - in which way some manner of doing both is an option.

Life can also be meaningless if we so choose. Even those with a mission can choose to abort the mission. Having an inborn mission only means that whenever we do something that is not on the path we are supposed to take, even if it is not a "wrong" path in the grand scope of things but only a path not in alignment with what we are here for, we end up with tremendous difficulties.

Does life have to have a meaning? No, but us little humans feel better when it does. The Totality wouldn't really care if everything sucked in and cycled through another Big Bang right now. Everything would still be here, it would just be rearranged. Maybe for the better, maybe worse, maybe essentially the same but different.

IMO, the meaning of life is existence. How we exist is up to us, but the results of how we live are only reasonably predictable responses from the Totality to how we have chosen to exist.

If not necessarily so, how could it be made meaningful?
Any meaning beyond existence must be that meaning which is directly perceivable by the individual as meaningful, because it is only that individual's perception of meaning that makes the "how" meaningful in the first place.

I'm afraid that didn't sound clear, so I will try again but leave the first answer there for its completeness.

One must see meaning to have meaning.

[Starry_Canopy]

Thanks Elizabeth,

I am still understanding and digesting what you've said in your recent posting. In the meanwhile, could you please tell me what IMO means?

[bito]

Hi Starry Canopy

Apart from giving disturbing/ provocative thoughts like the one above to each other, or other experiences fated to extinction, either here or elsewhere, what the heck are we doing in our lives?

Wisdom reveals to us that we are but one mind thinking relative thoughts. The moment we forget this, we believe our relativity to be actual and subjectively true, ergo, the projection of our sense of separation as if we are inside ourselves looking out, or even more deeply into our ignorance, inside our bordered island, touching or colliding into other bordered islands. It would seem that the satiation of our sense of separation is a built-in requirement before ignorance is completely dissolved and truth of our one nature is our living.

What the heck should we be doing in our lives? Why aren't we doing it?

It is impossible for us to 'do' 'it', there is only doing, or happening.

For my part, I would love to find some meaning in my life by helping some unfortunate people, by joining some voluntary social life organization that s bringing bead for the hungry, education for the young, housing and medical care for the poor etc. But I dare not do that because I want my children to have me help them with funds to study well and gain a good exposure in order to be competitive in life. Ah, woe is me for being so selfish that only my children are dear to me among all children. Yet how can I foresake them when my parents did not forsake me? What's happening?

There is no part to play, or meaning to find. This may seem as if I am saying that all is meaningless; no, what I am saying is that there is no separate parts in the play and no separate meaning we can claim as our own. When this is seen by mind and integrated into living, anxiety about doing the 'right' thing is no longer held in awareness.

What's the solution for this state of afairs that we are now in?

Perhaps a more meaningful way of stating this, from the perspective of self-inquiry is: what is this "I" that desires (a solution)?

[Starry_Canopy]

Elizabeth,

How we exist is up to us, but the results of how we live are only reasonably predictable responses from the Totality to how we have chosen to exist

Is this similar to "You have the right only to your actions, not to the fruits thereof" (Bhagavad Gita)?


Bito,

Is what you are saying indicative of some sort of fatalism? I would love it if it was fatalism and I could just go through whatever happens ('I do' and 'others do') enjoying it all whatever happens, like a movie. But what is this thing about 'free will'? What if I have it and come to grief by not using it? And if I have a free will, how can it be non-consequential what I do?

[Starry_Canopy]

Psyche,

since we are alive we might as well go about it as gracefully as possible

What is going about it gracefully? (How does one go about it gracefully?) By saying "excuse me" before we grab more than our share when another does not get his/ her basic needs? By saying "I'm sorry" to the chicken before we eat it? By saying "cool it!" to ourselves when we waste our time? :)

[Michael]

For my part, I would love to find some meaning in my life by helping some unfortunate people, by joining some voluntary social life organization that s bringing bead for the hungry, education for the young, housing and medical care for the poor etc. But I dare not do that because I want my children to have me help them with funds to study well and gain a good exposure in order to be competitive in life. Ah, woe is me for being so selfish that only my children are dear to me among all children. Yet how can I foresake them when my parents did not forsake me? What's happening?

When I said I empathised with you I didn't realize to what extent. You touch on a hugely significant dilemma of human existence - my children or beyond?

I have witnessed such a tragedy unfolding over many years. It involved a group working in transpersonal analysis. Very much the moral and intellectual high ground. They were revolutionary. A ray of light and hope. We looked up to them and admired them. Wanted to be like them. In one of their families the children were devastated by death and destruction, suicide and sexual abuse.

What happened was that these people, for whatever reasons, chose to put their emotional attention outside their family. The family was destroyed for lack of love - and to make the tragedy worse, the children were remarkable individuals.

In another post I commented that Kahlil Gibran said your children are but the arrows from your bow. Love them, respect them for the unique individuals they are - even though that individualism may mean that they are radically different from you - show them respect and set them on the flight of life.

You've a good heart Starry, listen to it and don't be troubled. Your children depend on it. I suspect that there is another dimension to our acts and that the love you give your children, when it is true and unselfish and as much without ego as possible, extends far beyond your immmediate family and becomes a condition - and that this is also true of our entire emotional life.

Personally, my children are the best thing I have done, not brilliant, outstanding, but the best I have done. But the most I could ever give them is the power to be themselves and respect of that.

And thanks for bringing up the issue. Like you I feel divided about life and what we should be doing. Like you I want to help others, but find it astonishingly difficult for a wide variety of reasons. So I have to be humble and get with doing the little I do.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Starry wrote:
I am still understanding and digesting what you've said in your recent posting. In the meanwhile, could you please tell me what IMO means?

IMO is short for "in my opinion."

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

EI: How we exist is up to us, but the results of how we live are only reasonably predictable responses from the Totality to how we have chosen to exist

SC: Is this similar to "You have the right only to your actions, not to the fruits thereof" (Bhagavad Gita)?

I don't think that is the same thing, but depending on the interpretation it could look that way.

You may eat the proper foods in the proper amounts, exercise reasonably, hold joy in your heart, provide well for your family, do all that you know you should do to be a good person, and it is very likely that you will have a good life in return, but this is not a guarantee.

You may become a thieving, cheating drunkard if you so choose, but you must expect that you will have a fruitless life in return. This also however, is not guaranteed.

It is only very likely that good living will produce good results, and bad living will produce bad results. It is more likely that bad living will produce bad results than good living will produce good results; the tsunami did not only wipe out theives and cheats. If you look at the most successful, you find mostly people who found their talent and worked hard to bring it to fruition. If you look amongst the imprisoned and those not doing well, you find mostly people who did not apply their good talents.

We choose how to exist. We will probably be rewarded or punished appropriatly for our deeds and lack of deeds, but there is no guarnatee. If we did not get the results we wanted, we must still remember that it is our actions that do the most to determine if we will probably get the results We want. Goodness wants you to be rewarded for good actions, Truth rewards you for how effective you really were with all aspects considered, but there are some parts of the Totality that are too big for us to have any influence over. Seeking our due from the Totality via revenge or other misconceptions hurts us because then our actions for which we reap the fruit of are tainted.

Perhaps it is closer to "We probably reap what we sow."

[bito]

Is what you are saying indicative of some sort of fatalism? I would love it if it was fatalism and I could just go through whatever happens ('I do' and 'others do') enjoying it all whatever happens, like a movie. But what is this thing about 'free will'? What if I have it and come to grief by not using it? And if I have a free will, how can it be non-consequential what I do?

No, what I am displaying to you has nothing to do with a belief in pre-determinism. What I am displaying has nothing to do with belief, for belief is synonomous with ignorance.

There cannot be more than one reality. Reality is. Drop all philosophies and this will become clear. So what you would love reality to be or what I would love reality to be is meaningless, for reality is what it is. One consciousness appearing as infinite form and as the form called human, this one consciousness is infinitely thinking.

These infinite thoughts are not as a movie that you enjoy, for you live these thoughts in infinite form. How do you know you live? You know you live because you feel. A movie is a finite, unfeeling thing - it is the same today as it will be tomorrow and as it will be a century from now. And, unlike enjoying a movie, your living does produce consequences, or effects, and you respond to these effects according to your 'level' of awakening to the truth that there is but one mind.

Free will assumes that you and Mind or God are separate. This is not possible. As you have probably heard many times, all is the will of God, or in popular vernacular, "It's all good." Where or how can there be a separate will? Anything you seem to accomplish, is God being God, it is not Starry Canopy choosing to do something for God.

How can we not be compassionate towards all forms when we realize this most amazing thing, that we are God being God? Especially when God is ignorant of this truth. That is when s/he is the most compassionate of all.

[Starry_Canopy]

Hi Psyche

grace is much more than etiquette - your above references are parodies on etiquette
each person decides for themselves how to include grace in their lives
for myself i try not to take more than my share
i don't eat chicken
and as i live with a sense of eternity i don't concern myself with 'wasting' time

I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. I was just trying to express my own angst in a humorous way. I realise what you meant but wanted to ask how to oprationalize it. It could be following such precepts (as prescribed by Eckhart Tolle) as:
- accept everything (don't resist the present)
- judge nothing
- be constantly aware that everything is 'passing' (won't last forever)

I do take more than my share by working and earning a salary that is more than what is required for the basic needs of me and my family. This is indicated by the saving I am able to accumulate when Christ had clearly said not to put aside anything for the morrow. I don't give enough as Mother Teressa had said to give until it hurts, when someone asked her how to know how much to give.

I mostly don't eat non-vegetarian, but once in a while it seems to be the only thing I want to eat, my 'food', and I land up eating chicken or lamb or fish.

I do 'waste' quite a lot of time, reading fictional novels and lounging about saying to myself that I am 'relaxing' while there are any number of people whom I might be helping in that time by doing social work of some sort.

[Starry_Canopy]

Perhaps it is closer to "We probably reap what we sow."


Right ho, Elizabeth, thanks! Your posting was lucidity itself! It is also the same as I think the scheme of things to be. There is a related concept that might add to this:

The results of what we do depend upon three things:
- Karma (actions of ours)
- Kala (time - conducive or non-conducive, in the sense of the flow of life at that time, whether it is more in alignment with our actions or more opposite; like whether we are swiming with the flow at that time or upstream)
- Daiva (the wishes of the Divine as to the extent to which our actions are fruitful, wherin comes the effects of prayer)

Best-o!

[Starry_Canopy]

Bito

Thank you for your detailed posting. I myself used to hold such an understanding of life as you've enunciated. I may still hold this in my sub-conscious. But of late, I have become desirous of some 'proof' for all this.

When I look around, I see that there are many people who hold various alternative 'models' for explaining our existence and life. In all other respects, such as intelligence, piety, life's experiences, and all that, they are very similar to me. I can't believe that I know things more 'correctly' than them. So I'd rather only accept the things that can be demonstrated to be true by some sort of 'proof'. Not theoretical proof aided by logic as logic can prove both ends of a pair of opposites with equal ease, but demonstrable proof.

If you have such a proof for the 'model' you outlined, could you please share that with us?

[Starry_Canopy]

Thank you, Alpha, your posting was a much needed empathy and clear thinking.

When I said I empathised with you I didn't realize to what extent. You touch on a hugely significant dilemma of human existence - my children or beyond?


And thanks for bringing up the issue. Like you I feel divided about life and what we should be doing. Like you I want to help others, but find it astonishingly difficult for a wide variety of reasons. So I have to be humble and get with doing the little I do.


I need to share with you another example, the opposite of what happened in the case of the tragedy you witnessed with respect to the group you cited who were working in transpersonal analysis. Please allow me to post that later as now I need to rush about doing some critical shopping.

See you later and best regards
Starry

[bito]

Thank you for your detailed posting. I myself used to hold such an understanding of life as you've enunciated. I may still hold this in my sub-conscious. But of late, I have become desirous of some 'proof' for all this.

This is wisdom, to desire 'proof' of what you intuit. This desire will be very fire that will burn away all doubts that what you intuit is true, is true. Truth must be set free from where it hides. Your desire for truth is your saviour.

When I look around, I see that there are many people who hold various alternative 'models' for explaining our existence and life. In all other respects, such as intelligence, piety, life's experiences, and all that, they are very similar to me. I can't believe that I know things more 'correctly' than them. So I'd rather only accept the things that can be demonstrated to be true by some sort of 'proof'. Not theoretical proof aided by logic as logic can prove both ends of a pair of opposites with equal ease, but demonstrable proof.

It will be the burning desire to know your nature that will bring you home, not any explanation of what this nature is or is not. Like a wild fire, your desire for objective truth will burn you clean of your questions.

If you have such a proof for the 'model' you outlined, could you please share that with us?

I can offer no proof that you and me are God being God.

Trust your seeking to find, trust your suffering to know, trust your desire to bring you home.

:)

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

SC wrote:
I do 'waste' quite a lot of time, reading fictional novels and lounging about saying to myself that I am 'relaxing' while there are any number of people whom I might be helping in that time by doing social work of some sort.

This is not a waste. If you do not refresh your mind, you become useless to everyone.

[Starry_Canopy]

Hi Alpha, sorry for the delay...

I need to share with you another example

I had an uncle who was an Asst Professor in Mathematics. He was also an idealist who felt that all human beings were one family. He lived out his belief by being of assistance to every person who sought his help, to such an extent that he kept back only the bare minimum for his and his family's needs.

All of us, in the family, used to feel that what he did was wrong. I even felt sorry for my cousins (his sons and daughter) as they had much less compared to me by way of quality of life and the type of education that they had. They went to state schools, which were not as good as the private ones, had very few clothes and 'toys', hardly went to see movies or eat out. But the food they had at home was healthy, their recreation was the development of any talent that they had and they led a disciplined life without getting softened by 'comforts'.

Today, his kids are among the most 'successful' in our family. I don't know if the good that my uncle did is returning to his kids or whether, growing up in a healthy and disciplined way, they have become more capable of doing well against any odds. Could be either, huh?

[Starry_Canopy]

Elizabeth,

This is not a waste. If you do not refresh your mind, you become useless to everyone

Yes, quite right... but I do get the feeling sometimes that I am quite comfortable when I should actually be giving it a second priority to ensure that others are at least somewhat comfortable. :)

[Starry_Canopy]

Bito,

Thanks for your kind clarifications.

However, I introduced this topic mainly to take a break from discussions on self-realization/ God/ soul etc. to discuss more down to earth matters of whether the way we are living now is ok or not - whether we should be striving for 'personal/ selfish accomplishments' in life which we anyway cannot take to the grave or should we be using our time to help our fellow human beings have a somewhat better quality of life than they are having now.

Cheers :)

[bito]

SC, why do you separate the process of awakening from helping others have a better quality of life?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Starry Canopy,

I'm sorry that previously I did not see (therefore did not respond to) your post at the top of page 2. You wrote:The results of what we do depend upon three things:
- Karma (actions of ours)
- Kala (time - conducive or non-conducive, in the sense of the flow of life at that time, whether it is more in alignment with our actions or more opposite; like whether we are swiming with the flow at that time or upstream)
- Daiva (the wishes of the Divine as to the extent to which our actions are fruitful, wherin comes the effects of prayer)


That sounds right to me.

[Starry_Canopy]

SC, why do you separate the process of awakening from helping others have a better quality of life?

Thanks Bito, I stand corrected :)


I'm sorry that previously I did not see (therefore did not respond to) your post at the top of page 2

np Elizabeth, glad you saw it now and think that might be right, too.

[CSwriter1]

Here is something everyone can do immediately, and if you have children all the better!

Go to VirtuesProject.com order the book and the cards. This is best if you do have family, and if not find friends. Set aside some time every week to work on a Virtue Projects lesson. Everyone involved with this will be making the world a better place to live, even the little children, as they carry what they learn to school. And it will improve all your relationships and give your children a better chance of succeeding in life. The benefits a great for everyone.

If you want to take this further, you can introduce it to the school, church, wherever people congragate. When my training is complete, I will take it to schools, and low income housing projects with meeting rooms.

My number one purpose is advancing democracy, and if I am not doing it here, I am on another forum, or in the community doing my very best to reawaken an awareness of democracy, such as Thomas Jefferson had. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were not out for their own glory, but for a dream of a New Social Order where the masses would raise above the wretched lives that were common in their time.

I love the passion many of you have expressed here.

[______]

Yes, democracy as it stands is not what it was ever meant to be. I'm glad to know there are still some that strive to give it rebirth. :thumbsup:

[Michael]

Is that the stuff they're bringing to Iraq?

[______]

So they say.... :dunno:

[namtso]

Wow, great dialogue going on here. I just can't seem to limit myself to short posts. If anyone's eyes start to glaze over, just skip this.

Ah, woe is me for being so selfish that only my children are dear to me among all children. Yet how can I foresake them when my parents did not forsake me? What's happening?* - Starry Canopy
__________________________________________________ _____

You've a good heart Starry, listen to it and don't be troubled. Your children depend on it. I suspect that there is another dimension to our acts and that the love you give your children, when it is true and unselfish and as much without ego as possible, extends far beyond your immmediate family and becomes a condition - and that this is also true of our entire emotional life.

Personally, my children are the best thing I have done, not brilliant, outstanding, but the best I have done. But the most I could ever give them is the power to be themselves and respect of that. - AlphaAurigae
__________________________________________________ _____

This is not a waste. If you do not refresh your mind, you become useless to everyone. - Elizabeth Isabelle

__________________________________________________ _____

I had an uncle who was an Asst Professor in Mathematics. He was also an idealist who felt that all human beings were one family. He lived out his belief by being of assistance to every person who sought his help, to such an extent that he kept back only the bare minimum for his and his family's needs.

All of us, in the family, used to feel that what he did was wrong. I even felt sorry for my cousins (his sons and daughter) as they had much less compared to me by way of quality of life and the type of education that they had. They went to state schools, which were not as good as the private ones, had very few clothes and 'toys', hardly went to see movies or eat out. But the food they had at home was healthy, their recreation was the development of any talent that they had and they led a disciplined life without getting softened by 'comforts'.

Today, his kids are among the most 'successful' in our family. I don't know if the good that my uncle did is returning to his kids or whether, growing up in a healthy and disciplined way, they have become more capable of doing well against any odds. Could be either, huh?

However, I introduced this topic mainly to take a break from discussions on self-realization/ God/ soul etc. to discuss more down to earth matters of whether the way we are living now is ok or not - whether we should be striving for 'personal/ selfish accomplishments' in life which we anyway cannot take to the grave or should we be using our time to help our fellow human beings have a somewhat better quality of life than they are having now.* - Starry Canopy
__________________________________________________ _____

My number one purpose is advancing democracy, and if I am not doing it here, I am on another forum, or in the community doing my very best to reawaken an awareness of democracy, such as Thomas Jefferson had. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were not out for their own glory, but for a dream of a New Social Order where the masses would raise above the wretched lives that were common in their time. - CSwriter1
__________________________________________________ _____

Yes, democracy as it stands is not what it was ever meant to be. I'm glad to know there are still some that strive to give it rebirth. - SFT

My opinion is that your Uncle's success was in living by example. That does not necessarily mean living a meager existence at all. It means that he apparently lived his life in a certain way, helping out others who were less fortunate. His children apparently learned by his example. As to the amount of time and money sacrificed regarding the degree of influence on his children? Very hard to say. I absolutely agree with Elizabeth Isabelle in regard to you striking a balance that allows you to stay healthy, centered, grounded and able to take care of all the necessary things for your own family first. When I think of this I always think about flying in a commercial airplane. At the beginning of the flight they show people where the emergency exits are, where emergency lighting is etc. but what really struck a chord is the part where they tell the adults to put on their oxygen mask first before helping their children put on theirs. The message is clear. If the adult loses consciousness they are of no use to anyone and the entire family could die. If the adult first makes sure they themselves are getting oxygen first (substitute healthy/strong in other situations), they will also be capable of helping out others. If a person sacrifices their health thinking they are doing a noble thing, they should think of this analogy. So although I see your point in being concerned about the amount of effort you put out for helping others but it is also at least as important to make sure you are healthy, stable and centered so that you can continue to do so while also seeing to the important task of caring for your family too. Of course letting your children struggle somewhat so that they learn to be self sufficient within reason is also important. I equate that with not doing their school homework or projects for them but instead teaching them how to do it and then allowing them to struggle with it too. I have other examples but I'm not a parent so I am self conscious about discussing those subjects with those who are. Regarding limited time spent on purely recreational pursuits, that's a balance you will no doubt find and refine as time goes on. Enjoying your life and your time with your family is important too. Your children also need to learn that there are joys to be found in this life and you have the opportunity to teach them the proper ways to find these joys. That's very important.

In response to the issue of democracy, that's extremely important. Or as a friend at work corrected me, the U.S. form of government being a Republic. He printed out a definition of both and there are large differences. It would be extremely beneficial for the United States if we could make participation in politics much more accessible to all citizens. Right now it's a morass. Elections of political leaders are so much guided by popularity and recognition and by hot button issues that appeal to base emotions. And the super rich seem to be so overwhelmingly in control right now that we are more at risk than we have been in a long time at watching our standard of living, rights and freedoms be continually eroded. Don't get me wrong, I think there should be extreme measures taken to prevent terrorists from entering our country. At the same time only lip service is being offered regarding illegal aliens coming into our country and working for dirt wages. A clear majority of our law makers and political leaders are selling us out by giving in to greed, in my opinion. Regarding politics we need to find more reliable and accessible resources to help us get a handle on the laws being considered and on the real, complete and unbiased voting records of the politicians. If anyone knows of such a resource, by all means let me know of it.

Lastly I would like to say something which I am sure you are aware of. I'm being repetitive here but it's worth saying. In fact you said as much in another thread in regard to knowing a person by the friends he has. So along those same lines, your children will likely be known in large part based on the parents that they have. The time you spend with them is never time wasted if you are exhibiting compassion, caring and imparting knowledge and ethics etc. And just plain having fun with them, playing with them. It's all extremely important. This is where the imprint of what it is to be human is being made, in their childhood. The relationship you have with your wife will teach them much as well. I'm no wise man and I would never claim as much. I've also never been married and likely never will be. This is just my own personal viewpoint from this point in time.

[______]

Very good advice, nam. :thumbsup: I think I'll keep this as a reminder for when my wife gets here.