Ego Death

[spiritual_emergency]

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The place where time melts...

http://thefifthbody.homestead.com/persistence.gif

Salvador Dali - The Persistence of Memory


... once we have abandoned the luminous state of arising and passing, we open to a profound cycle of dissolution, death, and rebirth ... In this stage, nothing around us seems solid or trustworthy.* On all levels, our consciousness becomes attuned to endings and death.* We notice the end of conversations, of music, of encounters, of days, of sensations in the body on a powerful cellular level.* We sense the dissolution of life moment to moment.* Now the dark night deepens.* As our outer and inner worlds dissolve, we lose our sense of reference.* There arises a great sense of unease and fear, leading students into a realm of fear and terror.* "Where is there any security?* Wherever I look, things are dissolving."** In these stages we can experience this dissolution and dying within our own body. We may look down and see pieces of our own body seeming to melt away and decay, as if we were a corpse. As the realm of terror deepens, periods of paranoia may arise. In this stage, wherever we look, we become fearful of danger...

Source: Forms of Spiritual Emergency (http://www.nor.com.au/community/spiritualemergence/page4.html)


... when the soul begins to see the limitation of structure and experiences herself as presence, the structure begins to reveal its nature as a mental construct characterized by past conditioning, ideas, memories, etc. The soul begins to experience an inner emptiness, a meaninglessness, a dread of falling apart, and terror of death and annihilation. These experiences of falling apart or being annihilated actually come to pass as the structures dissolve. The soul experiences disintegration and dissolution, disorientation, and a loss of identity; she feels lost and despondent. These existential crises are actually elements of some stages of working through ego structures that then lead to deeper realizations of true nature, moving to timelessness and formlessness.

Source: Ego Death (http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/e/ego_death.htm)


PERRY:* The overall experience is described as falling into a kind of abyss of isolation. This comes about because there is such a discrepancy between the subjective inner world that one has been swept into, and the mundane everyday world outside. There seems to be a total gulf between these two.

O'C: So it starts with a feeling of isolation...

PERRY: Yes. Now the symbolic expression of this is falling into a death - not only a death state, but also a death space - the "afterlife," the "realm of the ancestors," the "land of the dead," the "spirit world."* The common experience here is for the person to look about and think that half the people around him are dead too. While in this condition, it's very hard for one to tell if one is really alive or not.

Source: The Inner Apocalypse (http://www.global-vision.org/interview/perry.html)

My definition of "the ego" is that it is comprised of what we believe to be true about ourselves, others, the world, and our mutual place in it. These beliefs that we hold to be true form the structure of "the ego". The goal of most spiritual paths is to slowly erode this egoic structure into nothingness through the process of examination, meditation, contemplation, etc. Ideally, this occurs slowly over a long period of time, thereby producing spiritual emergence. When it occurs very rapidly it produces a crisis of spiritual emergency. This is my experience.

I'm interested in hearing from any others who may have gone through an experience of "ego death" or "ego collapse". How did you interpret and integrate your experience? What was most helpful to you and why? What was not helpful and why? I'm also interested in any Buddhist resources as related to "The Higher Samadhis". I've searched on the net for more information but haven't been able to find much. Perhaps it can be found in a book or some website that I haven't happened to stumble across yet.


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[...]

..i agree with your definition of ego, but can't agree on the actually dying of ego. There were a few experiences that showed the limited aspects of ego, and the vastness of consciousness that lies beyond it [or so it seemed], but it were those experiences that showed how ego can't die but will renew itself, and re-invent itself, constantly. Without ego there is no coherent functioning. Ego is needed, as a structure, to survive reality. What the supposed ego-death experience can show us is that we exist as ego, but that it's temporary essence is essentially zero [comprised of nothing substantial]. Altough such experiences do not actually culminate in the [permanent] dissolution of ego, they do free us from the chains that tie us to emotion and other attachments...

..the important questions regarding this subject is: why should something that is essentially an illusion disappear, and who is desiring this?

..a number of people have been beneficial, and [perhaps] i've sought them out on purpose, but what i can give you as advice is that you should trust life to bring you those [experiences] on your path that will facilitate your expectations. Basically, it is all about intent but not all about action. If you can keep in mind that reality is a roller-coaster, and you're in the backseat enjoying the ride for all it's worth, it'll happen. Whatever that might be...

[spiritual_emergency]

.

..i agree with your definition of ego, but can't agree on the actually dying of ego. There were a few experiences that showed the limited aspects of ego, and the vastness of consciousness that lies beyond it [or so it seemed], but it were those experiences that showed how ego can't die but will renew itself, and re-invent itself, constantly.

Yes, I agree. What does seem to "die" is one's experience of how they self-identified. We believed certain things to be true about ourselves and our worldview. Those beliefs can no longer stand in the aftermath of such an experience.

Without ego there is no coherent functioning. Ego is needed, as a structure, to survive reality.

I'm also in agreement. "Egolessness" is not the goal. An ego is required to function in *this* reality. The function of ego changes however; it becomes an organizing principle as opposed to the totality of what we believed ourselves to be.

..the important questions regarding this subject is: why should something that is essentially an illusion disappear, and who is desiring this?

An example I'm playing with...- A man visits Italy. Does that make him an Italian?

- A man lives in Italy? Does that make him Italy?The truth of the matter is there is no "Italy". "Italy" is nothing but an idea of a boundary that begins *here* encompasses *this* and ends *there* at a clearly established border. Like "Italy," the border crossing is also an illusion -- only an idea. It does not exist except as a crossbeam in the structure of what you/I/we believe to be true. However... there is a man and there is a ground upon which he stands. Sometimes there's just a ground.

..a number of people have been beneficial, and [perhaps] i've sought them out on purpose, but what i can give you as advice is that you should trust life to bring you those [experiences] on your path that will facilitate your expectations. Basically, it is all about intent but not all about action. If you can keep in mind that reality is a roller-coaster, and you're in the backseat enjoying the ride for all it's worth, it'll happen. Whatever that might be...

Yes. Thank you for your comments. There's some good substance there to digest.


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[...]

..hi,

Those beliefs can no longer stand in the aftermath of such an experience.

..true, and despite the continued existence of other beliefs, one knows now that these beliefs too are fickle and would not stand up against, dare i say, truth...

The function of ego changes however; it becomes an organizing principle as opposed to the totality of what we believed we ourselves to be.

..yes :)

Sometimes there's just a ground.

..from my POV, that is all there is and the circle is completed...

:)

[spiritual_emergency]

Re: The Ground of Being...

..from my POV, that is all there is and the circle is completed...

Hmmm. Nice vibe, that ground.

I'm out of things to say now. But I feel (http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=46&mforum=boxershorts) like dancing. :)


[Edited to add: I'm still interested in info on the "Higher Samadhis" (as related to dissolution of the self) if anyone has a link or book recommendation.]

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[spiritual_emergency]

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psyche, could you clarify what you mean by your statement above. I'm not certain I understand what you mean.

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[scameter]

I dislike the effect the ego often has on events by human choice, but the ego is also capable of compassion and other similar things. Is it worth giving it up entirely? And, how can it be truly bad if we have it naturally?

[spiritual_emergency]

I dislike the effect the ego often has on events by human choice, but the ego is also capable of compassion and other similar things. Is it worth giving it up entirely? And, how can it be truly bad if we have it naturally?

I always thought the word "ego" was a poor choice of words. I prefer the terms "self" and "Self" because it's not the ego per se that is the culprit. Imagine if you will, a playground apparatus built out of copper tubing. We look at the totalitity of that structure and call it "the ego" but the structure itself is necessary and has purpose. What's faulty are the building materials and the foundation "the structure called ego" has been built upon. I'll borrow on some words here...

"True sanity entails in one way or another the dissolution of the normal ego, that false self competently adjusted to our alienated social reality... and through this death a rebirth and the eventual re-establishment of a new kind of ego-functioning, the ego now being the servant of the divine, no longer its betrayer."

– R.D.Laing


... You get the idea of who you are from others.

It is not a direct experience.

It is from others that you get the idea of who you are. They shape your center.* This center is false, because you carry your real center.* That is nobody's business.* Nobody shapes it.

You come with it.

You are born with it.

So you have two centers.* One center you come with, which is given by existence itself.* That is the self. And the other center, which is created by the society, is the ego. It is a false thing - and it is a very great trick. Through the ego the society is controlling you. You have to behave in a certain way, because only then does the society appreciate you. You have to walk in a certain way; you have to laugh in a certain way; you have to follow certain manners, a morality, a code. Only then will the society appreciate you, and if it doesn't, you ego will be shaken. And when the ego is shaken, you don't know where you are, who you are.

The others have given you the idea.

That idea is the ego.

Try to understand it as deeply as possible, because this has to be thrown. And unless you throw it you will never be able to attain to the self. Because you are addicted to the center, you cannot move, and you cannot look at the self.

And remember, there is going to be an interim period, an interval, when the ego will be shattered, when you will not know who you are, when you will not know where you are going, when all boundaries will melt.

You will simply be confused, a chaos.

Because of this chaos, you are afraid to lose the ego. But it has to be so. One has to pass through the chaos before one attains to the real center.

Source: Ego - The False Self (http://deoxy.org/egofalse.htm)

There are a number of paths that assist in dismantling the belief structures that have built the ego of the little self; some of them polish it away slowly, some do so very rapidly. We're all going to get what we get so there's no point in wishing it were otherwise. Ultimately however, the ego -- the structure of what one believes to be true about one's self, others, the world and our mutual place in it -- must be rebuilt on new ground. I suspect that if the process is a slow and steady one, a great deal of that re-construction takes place along the way. If the process is especially rapid, both the deconstruction and the reconstruction aspects are going to be a bit more dramatic. Either way, it's not "The End" it's simply "A New Beginning".

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[spiritual_emergency]

it was a poetic moment ...

Thanks for explaining. :)

[scameter]

I always thought the word "ego" was a poor choice of words. I prefer the terms "self" and "Self" because it's not the ego per se that is the culprit. Imagine if you will, a playground apparatus built out of copper tubing. We look at the totalitity of that structure and call it "the ego" but the structure itself is necessary and has purpose. What's faulty are the building materials and the foundation "the structure called ego" has been built upon. I'll borrow on some words here...

Actually, I personally think that you are right about it actually being the self, but I think the faulty aspect of the self is in the necessity of free will's having two halves, that being positive and negative, or aggressive and passive if you will. To which of these is followed is the choice of the individual, nor are either of these always right or wrong necessarily. Without the self, we would not be capable of wrong choices, but we would also not be capable of right choices; we would be animals merely doing whatever is necessary to survive and having no thoughts otherwise, and because we are obviously not this, the self has worth.

Ultimately however, the ego -- the structure of what one believes to be true about one's self, others, the world and our mutual place in it -- must be rebuilt on new ground. I suspect that if the process is a slow and steady one, a great deal of that re-construction takes place along the way. If the process is especially rapid, both the deconstruction and the reconstruction aspects are going to be a bit more dramatic. Either way, it's not "The End" it's simply "A New Beginning".

Hmm... a very interesting way of putting it my friend, and I do partially agree. I think that not everything about the original state of the ego, or the state of the ego at any particular time, should be forgotten, as that would dissolve the individual; but, if it is changed, gradually as you say, and by the correct choice and guidence of the self and it's perception, then it can be made well. :)

[spiritual_emergency]

Hmm... a very interesting way of putting it my friend, and I do partially agree. I think that not everything about the original state of the ego, or the state of the ego at any particular time, should be forgotten, as that would dissolve the individual; but, if it is changed, gradually as you say, and by the correct choice and guidence of the self and it's perception, then it can be made well.

I think it's important to clarify the labels that are applied. Often what means one thing to "me" might mean something different to "you". I have been learning a great deal about labels over the past few years. In the aftermath of my experience, two labels were applied to that experience: one was "enlightened". Later, the other was "schizophrenic". The irony is, I didn't know what those labels meant. Having spent a few years exploring them and recognizing the limitations of each, I've discarded both. I am neither of those things.

More than anything, I think my experience taught me about the cost of Being human. Yes, these kind of experiences have profound spiritual meaning and purpose. But we are still human beings having them. And other human beings, like us, are having them too. They are not so uncommon after all. We all have the ability to touch the face of god.



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[spiritual_emergency]

I felt compelled to place this here...

"I am black but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem."

- The Song of Songs (1:5)


http://thefifthbody.homestead.com/clancy_KaliAtPlay.jpg

"Is Kali, my Divine Mother, of a black complexion?
She appears black because She is viewed from a distance;
but when intimately known She is no longer so.
The sky appears blue at a distance, but look at it close by
and you will find that it has no colour.
The water of the ocean looks blue at a distance,
but when you go near and take it in your hand,
you find that it is colourless."

... Ramakrishna Paramhansa (1836-86)

Kali's four arms represent the complete circle of creation and destruction, which is contained within her. She represents the inherent creative and destructive rhythms of the cosmos. Her right hands, making the mudras of "fear not" and conferring boons, represent the creative aspect of Kali, while the left hands, holding a bloodied sword and a severed head represent her destructive aspect. The bloodied sword and severed head symbolize the destruction of ignorance and the dawning of knowledge. The sword is the sword of knowledge, that cuts the knots of ignorance and destroys false consciousness (the severed head). Kali opens the gates of freedom with this sword, having cut the eight bonds that bind human beings. Finally her three eyes represent the sun, moon, and fire, with which she is able to observe the three modes of time: past, present and future. This attribute is also the origin of the name Kali, which is the feminine form of 'Kala', the Sanskrit term for Time.

Source: Kali - The Divine Mother (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/kali/)

I considered starting a new thread on "emptiness" but decided this fits better here. Kali is a metaphor for the place where time melts. Other cultures likely have other symbols and metaphors, but that's the one that resonates for me. Beyond Kali's slashing sword is perfect stillness. Time does not exist there. That's the place of Emptiness. From this place of Nothingness, Everything is born. That's the Luminosity.

In the Kaballah, they call her Binah (http://ifdawn.com/esa/binah.htm). Sufis call her Layla (http://www.penkatali.org/feminine.html). To the Egyptians she is Isis (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2002/carl-teichrib/5isis.htm). Within a framework of Christianty she is The Black Madonna (http://alignment2012.com/page9c.html). In Tibetan scripture she is Black Tara (http://www.horusmaat.com/silverstar/SILVERSTAR2-PG18.htm). To the Gnostics and philosophers, she is Sophia (http://www.badger.org/thebible/solomon.htm).


See also:
Strange Days ~ Beautiful Midnight (http://thefifthbody.homestead.com/StrangeDays_BeautifulMidnight.html)
Dancing In the Flames: The Dark Goddess in the Transformation of Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1570623139/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-0114688-1387144)
The Unmanifest Absolute (http://www.kheper.net/integral/unmanifest_absolute.html)
The Black Light (http://www.sophiajournal.org/archives2/cheetham.html)
The Black Latifa (http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/b/black_latifa.htm)
Night Enfolds Her Cloak of Holes (http://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/wildernessH.html)
The Return of Lilith (http://www.penkatali.org/lilith.html)


[Edited for links.]


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[scameter]

I think it's important to clarify the labels that are applied. Often what means one thing to "me" might mean something different to "you". I have been learning a great deal about labels over the past few years. In the aftermath of my experience, two labels were applied to that experience: one was "enlightened". Later, the other was "schizophrenic". The irony is, I didn't know what those labels meant. Having spent a few years exploring them and recognizing the limitations of each, I've discarded both. I am neither of those things.

Well, I think an important thing about labels is that they derive from a concept that is invented by the human mind; thus, what the label is meant to represent is within the human consciousness, and I think it is within every consciousness, even if some people call themselves it, while others don't. For instance, I think enlightened is a label that everyone has, or at least is capable of, even if they do not label themselves as it. I think that we are all capable of every label; it is merely our choice that determines which we give to ourselves knowingly, and that we express.

More than anything, I think my experience taught me about the cost of Being human. Yes, these kind of experiences have profound spiritual meaning and purpose. But we are still human beings having them. And other human beings, like us, are having them too. They are not so uncommon after all. We all have the ability to touch the face of god.

Indeed. :) Oddly, I hadn't read this second paragraph in your post before I replied to the first, but what you said in your second one is quite similar to my reply to the first. :D

I considered starting a new thread on "emptiness" but decided this fits better here. Kali is a metaphor for the place where time melts. Other cultures likely have other symbols and metaphors, but that's the one that resonates for me. Beyond Kali's slashing sword is perfect stillness. Time does not exist there. That's the place of Emptiness. From this place of Nothingness, Everything is born. That's the Luminosity.

And an interesting parallel with the scientific theory of the Big Bang... But, I think an interesting thing about this my friend, among other things of course, is that Kali is where time melts, which I think also means that Kali is where time is. To me, time is happening, occuring, change; and, Kali is creation and destruction, or perhaps birth and death, and I find it interesting that she is time, and that time is naught but a cycle of creation/birth and destruction/death. I think this example is a very good one for an investigation of what time is. :) Thank you for putting this here.

[spiritual_emergency]

...And an interesting parallel with the scientific theory of the Big Bang...


"The initial disordered state that I am describing contains two distinct elements. The first is an experience of dying or of having already died, which symbolizes a dissolution of the accustomed self. The second element, closely related to the first, is a vision of the death of the world. In an acute psychosis individuals undergo a profound reorganization of the self, effected by a thoroughgoing reintegration through utter disintegration. Life cannot be repaired, it can only be re-created by returning to the sources. And the 'source of sources' is the prodigious outpouring of energy, life and the fecundity that occured at the Creation of the World."


John Weir Perry
Trials of the Visionary Mind (http://www.sunypress.edu/details.asp?id=53985)

See also:
The Inner Apocalypse (http://www.global-vision.org/dream/dreamint.html)
The Relevance of Visionary Experience to Culture (http://www.annebaring.com/anbar12_lect01_relevance.htm)




[Edited for links.]
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[spiritual_emergency]

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http://www.udayton.edu/mary/images/olczest.jpg

I ... saw your face
Elegant and tired
Cut up from the chase
Still, I so admired

Bloodshot, your smile
Delicate and wild
Well, give me she-wolf style
Rip right through me

Silverette are the jets of a lifetime
Go and get her, I’ve got her on my mind
Nothing better, the feeling is so fine
Simply put, I saw your love stream flow

Come on baby, ’cause there’s no name for
Give it up, and I got what I came for
Universally speaking, I
Take you back, and you make me nervous
Nothing better than love and service
Universally speaking, I
Win in the long run

I ... saw your crime
Dying to get high
Two of a kind
Beats all hands tonight

Silverette are the jets of a lifetime
Go and get her, I’ve got her on my mind
Nothing better, the making is so fine
Simply put ~ I saw your love stream flow
Simply put ~ I saw your love stream flow
Simply put ~ I saw your love stream flow

Let's go!


Red Hot Chili Peppers (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009MDDQ/qid=1136596682/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0114688-1387144?s=music&v=glance&n=5174)


See also:
Image Source: Our Lady of Czestochowa (http://campus.udayton.edu/mary//meditations/olczest.html)
Dark Mater (http://www.greenspirit.org.uk/resources/DarkMother.htm)
The Self-Aware Universe (http://twm.co.nz/goswam1.htm)
Black Hole (http://www.iol.ie/~peter/trans9.htm)




[Edited for links.]
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[spiritual_emergency]

The tao that can be described
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken
is not the eternal Name.

The nameless is the boundary of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of creation.

Freed from desire, you can see the hidden mystery.
By having desire, you can only see what is visibly real.

Yet mystery and reality
emerge from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness born from darkness.
The beginning of all understanding.


Source: The Tao Te Ching (http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/tao/TaoTeChing.html)


The following (brief) list of resources may be helpful to those individuals going through a form of spiritual emergency in this culture. Forms of Spiritual Emergency (http://www.nor.com.au/community/spiritualemergence/page4.html)
Causes of Spiritual Emergency (http://www.nor.com.au/community/spiritualemergence/page13.html)
Spiritual Emergence Service (http://www.spiritualemergence.net/pages/related.html)
The Stormy Search for the Self (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087477649X/sr=8-1/qid=1143399532/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6897061-2079165?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
Spiritual Emergency (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0874775388/qid=1143399593/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-6897061-2079165?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)


[Edited for links.]
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[scameter]

Quite interesting my friend. I think everyone in modern, at least modern Western, society could benefit from lessons on how to get through a spiritual emergency. :)

[spiritual_emergency]

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Quite interesting my friend. I think everyone in modern, at least modern Western, society could benefit from lessons on how to get through a spiritual emergency.

In a separate thread, someone had raised the issue of materialism and there was talk of how we can derive our sense of self from possessions and social status. But materialism goes further than that. We see it also in the abject denial of the spiritual and the insistence that rationalism must prevail. Western culture in particular denies the irrational and historically has punished those who have danced to a music that they, themselves, cannot hear: this is your Buddha... on clozapine. In this culture, it is beneficial for those on a spiritual path to be aware of the concept of spiritual emergency.

And now, because I'm fast running out of things to say, here's a favorite passage from my ever expanding book collection. I hope you (and others) enjoy it as much as I have...



When asked about the path of practice, Buddha explained that there are four ways for spiritual life to unfold.* The first way is quickly and with pleasure.* In this, opening and letting go come naturally, like an easy birth, accompanied by joy and rapture.* The second way is quickly but painfully.* On this path we might face a near-death experience, an accident, or the unbearable loss of someone we hold dear.* This path passes through a flaming gate to teach us about letting go.* The third form of spiritual progress is gradual and accompanied with pleasure.* In this way, opening and letting go happen over a period of years, predominantly with ease and delight.* The fourth and most common path is also slow and gradual, but takes place predominantly through suffering.* Difficulty and struggle are a recurrent theme, and through them we gradually learn to awaken.

In this matter we do not get to choose.* Our unfolding is a reflection of the pattern of our lives, which are sometimes described as "our fate" or "our karma".* No matter the apparent speed, we are simply asked to give ourselves to the process.* It is like being in a small rowboat on the ocean.* We row, but there is also a larger current; we may continually head east, but cannot know how far we have gone.* The question of distance and time however, is one that arises only at the beginning. It does not matter how far we think we have gone.* It is our willingness to open radically and repeatedly, just now that characterizes this journey.

It is easy to get caught in the notion that there is a goal, a state, a special place to reach in spiritual life.* Accounts of extraordinary experiences can create ideas of how our own lives should be, and lead us to compare ourselves with others.* In Tibet one famous yogi had lived for years practicing ardently in a mountain hut supported by the villagers below.* Then one festival day he heard that all his supporters were going to visit him.* The yogi carefully swept his hut, polished the offering bowls on the alter, made a special offering, and cleaned his robes.* Then he sat back and waited but an unease came over him.* Who was he trying to be?* Finally he got up, scooped up several handfuls of dirt, and threw them back onto the alter.* Those handfuls of dirt were said to be his highest spiritual offering.

[...]

The ultimate end of the koans might be seen in the following story, a bit of modern Zen humor regarding a disciple who sent his master faithful accounts of his spiritual progress.* In the first month, the student wrote, "I feel an expansion of consciousness and experience oneness with the universe."* The master glanced at the note and threw it away.*

The following month, this is what the student had to say: "I finally discovered that the Divine is present in all things."* The master seemed disappointed.

In his third letter the disciple enthusiastically explained,* "The mystery of the One and the many has been revealed to my wondering gaze."* The master yawned.*

The next letter said, "No one is born, no one lives, no one dies, for the self is not."* The master threw up his hands in despair.

After that a month passed by, then two, then five, then a whole year.* The master thought it was time to remind his disciple of his duty to keep him informed of his spiritual progress.* The disciple wrote back, "I am simply living my life."*

When the master read that he cried, "Thank God.* He's got it at last."


Jack Kornfield
After the Ecstasy, the Laundry (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553378295/qid=1045331161/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/002-2548607-8456066?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)



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[spiritual_emergency]

Thank you, India
Thank you, Terror
Thank you, Disillusionment
Thank you, Frailty
Thank you, Consequence
Thank you, thank you, Silence

the moment I let go of it, was
the moment I got more than I could handle
the moment I jumped off of it, was
the moment I touched down

Thank you, India
Thank you, Providence
Thank you, Disillusionment
Thank you, Nothingness
Thank you, Clarity
Thank you, thank you ... Silence

Alanis Morrisette




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[spiritual_emergency]

thought you had
all the answers, to
rest your heart upon
but something happens ...*
don't see it coming -- now
you can't stop yourself

Now, you're out there
~ swimming
In the deep
In the deep


Life keeps tumbling
your heart in circles
'til you ... let go
'til you shed your pride
and you climb to Heaven
and you throw your self off

Now, you're out there
~ spinning
In the deep
In the deep

And the Silence
of your secrets will
raise a worried hand
but you can't pin yourself
back together to who
you thought you were --

Now, you're out there
~ living
In the deep
In the deep

Now, you're out there spinning...
Now, you're out there swimming...

In The Deep


~ if you want to be given everything ... give everything up ~

Source: Bird York (http://www.birdyork.com/index_content.html)

See also:
Spirituality & Trauma (http://www.fsu.edu/~trauma/T-088.html)
The Spirit of Tonglen (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/4/story_423_1.html)
The Practice of Tonglen (http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php)

[bito]

and as I'm swimming
in the deep of my sleep
in the wide of my wake
water loving, water kissing
darkness wombing, darkness weeping
"undo my dreaming
undo my dreaming!"
and then, oh sweet ocean
no more swimming
no more swimming
sky singing only
I am me
I am thee

[namtso]

Thank you, India
Thank you, Terror
Thank you, Disillusionment
Thank you, Frailty
Thank you, Consequence
Thank you, thank you, Silence

the moment I let go of it, was
the moment I got more than I could handle
the moment I jumped off of it, was
the moment I touched down

Thank you, India
Thank you, Providence
Thank you, Disillusionment
Thank you, Nothingness
Thank you, Clarity
Thank you, thank you ... Silence

Alanis Morrisette

Yes

This is my all time favorite song of Alanis'. And is in itself a great resource for further discussion of self, ego, personality, perception of reality, social interaction .....

I highly recommend to anyone who truly likes this song more than her others, to let her know on her web site. This is purely for selfish reasons, I want to hear more songs like this from her!

[spiritual_emergency]

I don't know what will become of this thread -- I started it hoping to find more information on "the higher samaddis" but I haven't yet found that information. Meantime, I came across the following during a batch of web surfing last night and thought it was most interesting. To date, I have looked at my experience through the lens of shamanism, mysticism, gnosticism, alchemy and others. Of late, I seem to be applying the eye of buddhism to it so maybe this thread will become a resource for Buddhists who go through a "spiritual emergency".

It's worth noting that state begins with the belief that you are dead/have died. In an earlier conversation with Jampa [Mandala Thread] he/she made mention of bardo states. This fits too...


The Tibetan Book of the Dead

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is pragmatically and existentially directed toward the "dead" who are still living, and not especially toward those who are clinically dead. To reveal this less obvious meaning, we need to examine more closely some of the key features of the manifest meaning, for these indicate that both the existence of gods and the existence of an after-death bardo realm are questionable. With respect to the reality of the gods and demons that are experienced in the after-death state, we have noted that the text informs the disembodied consciousness that these deities have no substantial reality of their own. Indeed, this is the central illuminating principle of the text. Two memorable excerpts are as follows:

Through the instruction of his guru he will recognize them [the visionary deities] as his own projections, the play of the mind, and he will be liberated. It is just like seeing a stuffed lion, for instance: he feels very frightened if he does not know that it is really only a stuffed lion, but if someone shows him what it is he is astonished and no longer afraid. So here too he feels terrified and bewildered when the blood-drinking deities appear with their huge bodies and thick limbs, filling the whole of space, but as soon as he is shown he recognises them as his own projections or as yidams; the luminosity that arises later, mother and son, merge together, and, like meeting a man he used to know very well, the self-liberating luminosity of his own mind spontaneously arises before him.

[W]hatever you see, however terrifying it is, recognise it as your own projection; recognise it as the luminosity, the natural radiance of your own mind.

These excerpts confirm that the gods and demons experienced in the after-death state, although they appear with a reality equal to the material objects in the world of the living, are indeed believed to be nothing more than manifestations of the dead person's own psychological states. They are merely symbolic forms that express conditions of either psychological liberation or psychological bondage and suffering. This suggests that the path to enlightenment in no way depends upon favors or obstructions issued from the realm of the gods and demons that populate the after-death state; the path depends upon initially recognizing the images of the gods as manifestations of oneself in various possible and actual forms. Self-recognition alone initiates the path to more satisfactory levels of consciousness.

Source: The Therapeutic Psychology of the Tibetan Book of the Dead (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/robert.htm)

[spiritual_emergency]

Thanks for the pointer, pysche. I found two versions online: The Gospels of Ramakrishna (http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/)

[locomotive]

When I was 8 I looked into the mirror and thought:" am I ugly?". I then thought that I am not the face so who am I..The person that sees, who is he? I couldn't understand. A thought came to me. I investigated the thought: "Did I create the thought?" "yes I did", I said to my self remembering the previous action I had done. Then at a second glance I realized that that previous action had nothing to do with the thought than that it fanished the moment the thought came. "So there is no self..?" An emptyness fell over me and I didn't like it. I Thought that there must be something wrong with my thinking. I wondered if another person had the same consciousness as me. Does he see and feel like me? I don't know. All I know is what I see and feel. Do things exist outside of me(what I experience)? All of this felt way over my head and so I went to watch tv.

[______]

:lol: You were quite the 8 year old! When I was 8 I never would have thought in this way. All I thought about was getting to the next level in a video game.

[namtso]

When I was 8 I looked into the mirror and thought:" am I ugly?". I then thought that I am not the face so who am I..The person that sees, who is he? I couldn't understand. A thought came to me. I investigated the thought: "Did I create the thought?" "yes I did", I said to my self remembering the previous action I had done. Then at a second glance I realized that that previous action had nothing to do with the thought than that it fanished the moment the thought came. "So there is no self..?" An emptyness fell over me and I didn't like it. I Thought that there must be something wrong with my thinking. I wondered if another person had the same consciousness as me. Does he see and feel like me? I don't know. All I know is what I see and feel. Do things exist outside of me(what I experience)? All of this felt way over my head and so I went to watch tv. - locomotive (Petja)

Petja? Czech and female? SFT, this may be a "girls mature faster than boys" thing? That is a deep thought for an 8 year old!

[MidnightSun]

I agree.

[locomotive]

goddamnit I typed a whole post and now it's gone. Well I am not typing it again. oh well

I am a male from uzbekistan. Live in amsterdam.
Not too deep apparently.

[namtso]

I am a male from uzbekistan. Live in amsterdam.I Googled Petja and thought it was a female name, I guess I got it wrong.
Not too deep apparently. Huh?

[locomotive]

I was saying that the deepness happened because it was not too deep for the thinking deep to happen on such a level at that time.
--------------------

lol you googled petja. You are a detective.

[sahyo]

What the supposed ego-death experience can show us is that we exist as ego



maybe
isn't
dying
notdying
you're
attempting
to
avoid,
but
no
one
to