Knower And Known

[ranjitskohli]

"To know something knower has to be seperate & yet to know something totally, how can you know if you are seperate"

Unless you are into the state of enlightenment, can anybody who is not in that state describe precisely about that state??

Let me know, your thoughts...

[...]

..knower/known = observer/observed. An object cannot be observed/known without an observer/knower. If the subject is absent, the object is meaningless. Both arise simultaneously within the context of being, therefore truth/enlightenment is being, not object/subject. Hope this clears it up :lol:

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

To know something knower has to be seperate

IMO, that's a faulty premise.

[...]

no

which is why many 'paths' state that you require 'tansmission' from an enlightened being to become enlightened

if you actually encountered an enlightened being they could transmit to you some 'clues' as to what enlightenment is because they would be aware of your capacities to understand

if your capacity was sufficient they could enlighten you - 'light your fire' so to speak

i think of it like this

if you have never had sex you can read and see and talk about it but until you experience sex you are not going to totally understand

you have to have the experience yourself

..i disagree :P IMO, enlightenment is not an experience, but a knowing that can be facilitated by experience, yet isn't dependant on a [specific] experience to be. Grain of salt anyone?

:lol:

[...]

..see, and now we enter the shadowy land of assumption and conjecture. What makes you think i've never encountered an 'enlightened' person? Because i don't agree with you? If i give you his name, will you scoff and say he's not enlightened? Is agreement our only touchstone?

[ranjitskohli]

Encountering an enlightened being there would nothing that could be be felt or transmitted ona physical level. It would be more like a feeling of energy, like a feeling when you sit for meditation witha spiritual master. To know if the master is enlightened or not is something that could be felt at a very subtle level. It is not what you will get from his words, but rather than the silence that is between the words.

[...]

how am i going to say he is not enlightened by knowing his name

if you know someone who is enlightened i want his email

but first how do you know he is enlightened

..well, to me no-one is enlightened, or we are all :P either way, it evens out. This is his site: http://www.johnderuiter.com/

[...]

To know if the master is enlightened or not is something that could be felt at a very subtle level. It is not what you will get from his words, but rather than the silence that is between the words.

..yes, that is true, but how are you able to recognize it if it isn't already present?

[locomotive]

""To know something knower has to be seperate & yet to know something totally, how can you know if you are seperate""

the seperation is an idea. Do you know how a banana looks like? So you know. But to know how it is to have no idea of seperation or a feeling of this and that you must first get rid of the seperation.
You can remember the way a banana looks like with the idea that you are remembering or the memory can just appear. In both cases there is knowledge. Without the feeling or idea of knowing, there is knowledge, I know and that is knowledge there is still knowledge. A tree that you see outside is knowledge. Hearing is knowledge. Sound is knowledge. What do you think?

[Starry_Canopy]

Unless you are into the state of enlightenment, can anybody who is not in that state describe precisely about that state??

Suppose 'A' who is in the state of enlightenment describes it to 'B' who is not in that state. Now, suppose 'B', still not in a state of enlightenment, repeats what he heard from 'A' verbatim to 'C', what is 'B' describing?

[ranjitskohli]

When "B" speakes to "C". That is something that can be felt by "C" if "C" has little indepth and has little bit of connection with his inner self and practicing meditation for sometime, then he can feel, remember i said feel that the words are coming from somebody who has any level of enlightened experience. Because if you are practicing a spiritual path like meditation etc for prolonged period of time, you will be able to feel the silence that is between the words and of course feel the positive energy (Aura) sitting with an enlightened being.

Let me know, your thought

[scameter]

Anything can be known, but that doesn't mean that knowledge is true.

[______]

Anything can be known, but that doesn't mean that knowledge is true.
Knowledge is not truth without wisdom to know the difference between the illusion and reality.

[Starry_Canopy]

the difference between the illusion and reality

Difference between illusion and reality or between transcient and permanent? :)

Perhaps 'illusion' is actually 'reality in a transcient form'.

[______]

<_< :)

[Starry_Canopy]

and of course feel the positive energy (Aura) sitting with an enlightened being

Yes, you're right in that, I think

I have also experieced a lot of love, happiness and calm in the presence of an enlightened person, which I don't think was just a result of being overawed by that person; but could it be that? After all the tricks that the mind acn play are infinite...

In another example, at a spiritual centre I go to occasionally, there's another non-selfrealised person like me, but when we are near each other we find ouselves feeling as if our auras were burning with a brighter and stronger flame ... mere 'chemistry'?

[scameter]

Knowledge is not truth without wisdom to know the difference between the illusion and reality.

That is indeed one point to be made from what I said, mainly deriving from a Buddhist viewpoint, which I know you usually take. And, I think what you say is true, if indeed there is an illusion and a reality in question during a particular or general search of truth. Although, from the Buddhist standpoint, I do not see the real difference between reality and illusion; I thought to Buddhism, reality is only an illusion, produced by karma.

Perhaps 'illusion' is actually 'reality in a transcient form'.

Partially. But illusions, because they can be created by the human conscious, and also because reality itself is quite transient, especially to the subjective human, illusion does not always have to deal with what is real truthfully, but rather what is subjectively real to the individual.

it is a rare person indeed who speaks only when they have something worthwhile to say and is silent the rest of the time

That is because much of speech is unnecessary, and is merely an expression of emotional feeling. The speech that is usually considered worthwhile is usually logical, pointful (if even evasively so), and wise.

In another example, at a spiritual centre I go to occasionally, there's another non-selfrealised person like me, but when we are near each other we find ouselves feeling as if our auras were burning with a brighter and stronger flame ... mere 'chemistry'?

Or perhaps belief, or emotion. Or, indeed, it may truly be spiritual enlargement.

[______]

That is indeed one point to be made from what I said, mainly deriving from a Buddhist viewpoint, which I know you usually take.
:D I tend to, don't I? :lol:
I thought to Buddhism, reality is only an illusion, produced by karma.
True. This is the traditional thought, but I like to think that reality is clouded by an illusion of what reality is.
in music the silences are most important to the composition
And silence is the most important part of the song of life?

[______]

with silence life would not be a song - it would be noise
Indeed. Much noise in this life if that is all we choose to hear.

[Starry_Canopy]

oops i meant without silence

:lol:

Thought that's what it ought to have been and was trying hard to see from the point of view of what had been written!

Even thought of writing "what's noise for one man is harmony for another", but since I really couldn't understand how silience could be considered noise, restrained myself from making fatuous remarks :)

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

QUOTE
in music the silences are most important to the composition

And silence is the most important part of the song of life?


Without the song, the silence has a different meaning.

[______]

Thought that's what it ought to have been and was trying hard to see from the point of view of what had been written!
I knew what you meant psyche! ;)