Why Reincarnation?

[lenin32]

Can anyone please inform me as to why reincarnation is central to buddhism. And what proof do they have?

[redraven]

Well Lenin32, I have an answer. Probably two of them, but we'll see.

First off, Buddha repeatedly declined opportunities to talk about the afterlife. It would seem natural to say that he did not think it was important. On the other hand, it is clear that he believed in reincarnation, and both the Therevedan and Mahayana schools have heavenly realms, boddhisattva realms, hell (All from Hinduism) and so you could say that while Buddha declined, Buddhists did not.

According to Buddha, the proof of karma is suffering, and the proof of reincaranation is karma. We don't normally get rid of all our karma in one life, and so we usually are reborn to try again.

Buddha did not believe in the reincarnation of a body, nor in the reincarnation of a personality, but only of karma and virtue (which includes wisdom.) So you couldn't prove it by remembering, although Buddhist's take Buddhas own remembering of his past incarnations as true, and if someone attains the Bodhi, they will have the memories too.

However, there are some in Zen who say we merely pass away, and at one time I believed that. Now I trust Buddha, because it's simply the best thing out there, and I believe that if Buddha says it, it's very likely to be true. However, Buddhism isn't about faith, and you'll reincarnate according to your karma no matter what you believe, depending on what you do. Or maybe not. He did decline to speak of an afterlife.

[MidnightSun]

According to Buddha, the proof of karma is suffering, and the proof of reincaranation is karma. We don't normally get rid of all our karma in one life, and so we usually are reborn to try again.

Thats intresting.

[______]

If you are uncomfortable with reincarnation, then don't even think about it. Ultimately, whether we die and that's all, are reincarnated, or go to heaven/hell, it doesn't truly matter. What is truly important is that we as human beings should help one another and live compassionate, happy lives. :)

[W[oIa]nderingMind]

First off, Buddha repeatedly declined opportunities to talk about the afterlife. It would seem natural to say that he did not think it was important. On the other hand, it is clear that he believed in reincarnation, and both the Therevedan and Mahayana schools have heavenly realms, boddhisattva realms, hell (All from Hinduism) and so you could say that while Buddha declined, Buddhists did not.


Especially if you take into consideration that Buddha adjusted he's speeches to his listeners - if they feel like reincarnation is important he wouldn't have clearly outspoken against it - because there is not a real point in it - it doesn't matter for your live in the here and now.

You can find contradicting information on reincarnation or afterlive through the textures....

I have a very hard time believing in Reincarnation but still consider myself a Buddhist...

[namtso]

If you are uncomfortable with reincarnation, then don't even think about it. Ultimately, whether we die and that's all, are reincarnated, or go to heaven/hell, it doesn't truly matter. What is truly important is that we as human beings should help one another and live compassionate, happy lives.

I agree totally. Ever heard the phrase "If Mama's not happy, nobody's happy"? I'm not picking on Women or Mothers here, I'm just drawing a comparison. Another way to look at it is this. If you are in a bad mood and you are tromping around with a scowl on your face, you will also notice that other people avoid you, frown or scowl back, or even think you are insulting them somehow. Then think about days you are in a great mood. Like you just had a great time with a friend and you are carrying that around with you all day. You are calm, smiling and just enjoying your day. When you encounter others, they immediately recognize you are in a good mood and most of them respond positively to that. Sometimes you may not even realize it. But even if you are going through a drive through food place, the cashier at the window will respond to your happy expression on your face. I know this very well because in the last several years I started being a lot more friendly with the people at the drive through windows. There is a clear and obvious difference in how they treat you. And I've began noticing that without even trying, the people remember you and start making conversation with you when you come back. It's a very clear and obvious difference from how I was treated before when I was much more guarded and stoic. It's really quite amazing and very cool.

Ok, so it may seem right now like I'm not addressing the idea in the quote above. Here's where I'm going with all this. The concept of karma can actually be tracked both in the short term and the long term. One only need change their perspective and change their behavior. In fact that's largely the point of meditation, to change one's perspective and behavior, right? If a person starts practicing meditation and learning about Buddhism, it is almost certainly going to have an effect on that person's outlook, perspective and eventually their behavior. They might become more calm, less quick to anger, less disturbed by negative emotions etc. Then other people who that person comes into contact with recognize this and they also become more at ease themselves because they no longer distrust that person. And they know that when they talk to that person, they are going to have a good experience. As far as I can tell, that's positive karma coming to fruition in the short term. I could stop right there and say "hey, works for me, I'm happy with Buddhism and the concept of karma". Great. Become happier and have better experiences interacting with other people because I've decided to spend time studying Buddhism? Heck yeah! In the slightly longer term it could certainly be argued that when a person becomes more balanced, less disturbed by negative emotions and events, and has a much greater tendency to remain calm most or all of the time, then they will almost certainly reduce the risk of high blood pressure and other stress related diseases. So the effect of putting Buddhism into practice can help me live longer and live more healthy? Great! I'm on board for the long haul. Those reasons could be more than enough and you can also see what sure looks like the principle of karma working itself out right in one lifetime. The way I see it, like others here have stated, it really doesn't have to matter if you accept reincarnation and the connection it has to karma. Just experiment with living your life according to Buddhist teachings and principles and the rest will take care of itself. And the benefits can be enjoyed in this life! Cool, huh.

In regard to the validity of reincarnation, I can't honestly say what I believe yet. The story of how the boy who is believed to be the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama was found is a great one and I highly recommend anyone look it up and read about it. A Google search will find it, or see this web page - http://www.fpmt.org/teachers/hhdl/hhdlbiography.asp . And of course I always recommend renting the DVD Kundun. It is an excellent movie about the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama starting back when he was a very young boy before he was discovered as the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama. One of my favorite movies.

[______]

Originally posted by @--
Can anyone please inform me as to why reincarnation is central to buddhism.
Acctually, I heard somewhere that ancient Judaism refered to reincarnation. If this is in fact true, then reincarnation is not central to Buddhism. Buddhism's just most "famous" for this concept.

[scameter]

I think that reincarnation is central to Buddhism because of the effect of karma keeping us within the worldly illusionary cycle of birth and death, and that we reincarnate until our karma is cleared, in which time we become enlightened and enter into Nirvana. But, that's just what I've studied. :)

[namtso]

Acctually, I heard somewhere that ancient Judaism refered to reincarnation. If this is in fact true, then reincarnation is not central to Buddhism. Buddhism's just most "famous" for this concept.
My Grandmother told me once that the concept of reincarnation was part of Christian belief at one time until it was taken out of the bible. Anyone else hear that?

Like Lenin32, I would also be very interested to find out if anyone has some convincing stories that help prove or support the concept of reincarnation. I have a book that Prof. Thurman mentioned in one of his recorded talks. I think it's in a box, I'll see if I can dig it up again (reincarnate it, ar ar).

[______]

My Grandmother told me once that the concept of reincarnation was part of Christian belief at one time until it was taken out of the bible. Anyone else hear that?

It is very likely in the Koran which is more or less the Old Testament (refer to Scam for details :D :P ). Christians must have removed it because it contrdicted the belief in an eternal soul.

Like Lenin32, I would also be very interested to find out if anyone has some convincing stories that help prove or support the concept of reincarnation.

Proof? :think: I can only recall stories of intentional reincarnation and the story of HHDL.

[MidnightSun]

My Grandmother told me once that the concept of reincarnation was part of Christian belief at one time until it was taken out of the bible. Anyone else hear that?

I never did 0_o that makes it lot more intresting.. Christianity changed so much, I believe its completely diffrent nowadays..sad...

[namtso]

Proof? I can only recall stories of intentional reincarnation and the story of HHDL.
You have a point there. Kind of naive for me to ask for "proof". I guess I should ask for compelling stories, supporting accounts etc. If proof were ever found it would probably hit the front pages of the newspapers. Poor choice of words on my part. I'm going to try to find out from my Grandmother when reincarnation was removed from the Christian Bible. She's 98 years old now so she may not remember. I swore I read that same claim somewhere else one time too. Still wouldn't constitute proof though.

[namtso]

I spoke to my Grandmother last night (this morning in the Eastern U.S.) and she remembered right away about the idea of reincarnation in the bible. And this at 98 years old. Wow. I hope I inherit her genetic traits. Anyhow, she mentioned John as being accepted as a reincarnation by some. When I Googled it, I got the Wikipedia page where it shows that John was suspected to be the reincarnation of Elijah.
Here's the Wikipedia link on this subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_rei...ohn_the_Baptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_reincarnation#Elijah_became_John_the_Bap tist)

It seems there are also passages in the bible that refute the concept of reincarnation. These are also mentioned on the Wikipedia page.

[______]

No. We may never prove reincarnation, but the fact that it appears in more than one religion is enocouraging it at the least.

I guess I should ask for compelling stories, supporting accounts etc.

I'm not sure if I remember this story exactly as I read it, but I can convey the jist of it:
"A monk sat in meditation for days on end. A man who had passed him daily decided to ask the monk about reincarnation.
"The man asked, 'What evidence is there of reincarnation?;
"The monk smiled and asked the man for a coin.
"The man offered the coin to the monk who gratefully took it and placed it in his mouth.
"The man asked, 'Why did you place the coin in your mouth?'
"The monk smiled and said, 'The wisewoman in town will give birth tommorrow. Help her deliver.'
"And the monk willed himself to die in meditatiion at that moment.
"The next day, the wisewoman gave birth and surely the man helped her deliver.
"When the baby was made to cry, a coin fell from it's mouth. The man went to the monestary immediately to become a monk."

[namtso]

Cool story about the monk.

I just saw this book on Amazon that seemed kind of interesting. It addresses the issue of reincarnation being mentioned in the book of Genesis. I'm not vouching for the author, I don't remember reading anything of his before. Could be an interesting read.

Genesis Unveiled: The Lost Wisdom of Our Forgotten Ancestors (Paperback)
by Ian Lawton (Author)
ISBN: 0753508192

[______]

<_< hmm... definitly worth looking into...

[______]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14945964/

Judaism has a new definition for rebirth! It's not traditional reincarnation, but it's still there! :D

[namtso]

Seems Kabbalah, a Jewish mystical tradition, accepts reincarnation in the true sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_rei...ohn_the_Baptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_and_reincarnation#Elijah_became_John_the_Bap tist)
http://www.inner.org/topics/gilgulim.htm

"Kabbalah includes reincarnation. The pure soul, once the body dies, will be present among the emanations who control the world. An impure soul must be reborn in another body, and the process continues until it has been made pure. Evil is only the negation of good, and in the Jewish setting evil is overcome through the three great emphases, along with strict adherence to the law."
excerpt from: http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/kabbalah.htm

[Mystic]

Buddhism is continuity of life. There is no beginning or end. Buddha had attainted enlightment many lives ago. As per the Lotus Sutra, He continues to come back to help us relaise that we are capable of achieving the same. We possess the same enlightenment within us.
As we possess other worlds of hunger,anger,greed, happy, learning, we have buddhahood within us too.

I know its hard to beieve that we are buddha and have unlimited compassion and wisdom within us. However since we all possess that buddhahood, we should continue to help us and others. Respect each other as we all are Buddhas:)

if you would like to know more please go to:
www.sgi-usa.org

Thanks

[Michael]

In the Essene Gospels an early prophet, whose names eludes me, was so holy that he was assumed into heaven. When he arrives in heaven he is told to open a book with 7 seals. He does and sees the apocalypse. Then God says something to the effect of, now you've seen mankind's suffering are you going to stay here in heaven or will you go down and guide mankind?
He goes.

There is some debate as to the validity of the Essene Gospels, but if this story did come from a valid source it would appear not only to support the theory that the Jewish religion subscribed to reincanation, but also to the concept of bohdisatvas.

[______]

In the Essene Gospels an early prophet, whose names eludes me, was so holy that he was assumed into heaven. When he arrives in heaven he is told to open a book with 7 seals. He does and sees the apocalypse. Then God says something to the effect of, now you've seen mankind's suffering are you going to stay here in heaven or will you go down and guide mankind?
He goes.
This sounds like the book of Revelation if I'm not mistaken. The thing about this book is that it can be interpreted in as many ways as the human mind can conceive. It's much like Nostrodomis. Sounds good, but could mean anything. Very, very little of it is specific to what acctually occurs in the final hour of humanity according to the writer.

I don't see how this has to do with reincarnation, however. :think:

[Michael]

I don't see how this has to do with reincarnation, however.

Because he reincarnates to help mankind. Boddhisattva like.

[______]

So then, he's "born again"?

[Michael]

Not in the 'born again' Christian sense. He chose, or rather he was manouvered into being born again.

But that begs the question, why was he assumed into heaven in the first place? Maybe the bod had to go back for servicing?

This sounds like the book of Revelation if I'm not mistaken.

Sounds like to me too.

[______]

He was assumed into heaven because his god wanted him to be. He had no choice in the matter. His god took him out of the world, showed him all kinds of horrible things, then made him choose heaven, or human life to share what he saw.

Doesn't this kinda violate free will that this very god supposedly gave man? Couldn't he have asked the guy, "Hey, I've got some useful info. Want to know about it?" And if he said no, there were more than plenty more people to show it to.

[Michael]

Who said anything about free will? But in the story he was kinda given a choice - stay and be unworthy of heaven or go and be worthy.

I suspect we have free will within very narrow parameters.

He was assumed into heaven because his god wanted him to be. He had no choice in the matter.

Like you're going to say, 'Get lost God, I don't want to go to heaven?' That'd be a first.
We are not talking abduction by aliens here.

[______]

Who said anything about free will?
I did! :lol:
But in the story he was kinda given a choice - stay and be unworthy of heaven or go and be worthy.
This is his free will after being brought out of the world into heaven against his will. Unless he yelled into the sky, "Hey! Somebody up there wanna let me in? I'm sure I could learn a lot!"
Like you're going to say, 'Get lost God, I don't want to go to heaven?' That'd be a first.
Well, if a god raptured me into heaven against my will I would certainly protest. "Hey! I was enjoying the clouds! What's with this?"

[Michael]

Sorry, done it again. I'm editing, you're reading. :ph34r:

[Michael]

This is his free will after being brought out of the world into heaven against his will.
Where are you getting this 'against his will' stuff? In the story the guy is holy, loves God. God shouts down, hey, want to come up to heaven? And the guy shouts back, 'Thanks God, but I'm busy right now'?

No. He wanted to go to Heaven. Live with it.

[______]

Sorry, done it again. I'm editing, you're reading.
Refresh becomes your best friend with more than one person posting! :D ;) :lol:

[______]

Where are you getting this 'against his will' stuff? In the story the guy is holy, loves God. God shouts down, hey, want to come up to heaven? And the guy shouts back, 'Thanks God, but I'm busy right now'?

No. He wanted to go to Heaven. Live with it.
Sorry, but when one is raptured they ain't expecting it to happen. Whether in heinsight he loved it or not is irrelevnt.

[Michael]

Who said anything about raptured. Why can't you just smell the roses?

I know you did :rolleyes:

[______]

If you read the txt, it says that he was "raptured into heaven..."

I was Christian once and remember this story quite well. :P :lol:

[Michael]

You talking The Book of Revealation or the Essene Gospel?

If it's Revealation do you have chapter and verse? <_<

[______]

12I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"[b]dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
This is the NIV translation. Doesn't say anything about ever being in heaven. I'll see what else I can find.....
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/
9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks
hmmm.... seems like no matter what version I look up, they're all saying that John was never raptured nor in heaven. Looks to me like a "divine hallucination". I retract my previous statement. I must have heard that from some preacher or a friend or something. :dunno:

[______]

Browse at your leisure!
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index...ooks&version=9; (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9#books&version=9;) :lol:

[______]

I've just finished reading the last couple of chapters of Revelation (boy is my head spinning! :mellow: ). Nowhere in these chapters did it mention he had the choice in whether or not to share what he had seen. It looked to me like the angel that acted as the messenger of God flat out told him to do it and since this man was a "good Christian" he listened.

[Michael]

I'll dig out the original. Might take a while.

The story is not prophetic but hsitoric. The guy wasn't told to tell anybody anything, just to guide them so that the tribulation would be lessened.

After Revealation a valium helps.

[______]

After Revealation a valium helps.
:think: You think?

I find that a good shaking of the head helps some of the confusion seem less important! :lol: Then, after the sense of dizziness and headache go away, meditation helps clear out the true message: "The end is near! Those that aren't with us are against us! Worship God! Blah! Blah! Blah!" :rolleyes:

Okay, so now I'm just being a smart-elick. But that's just about what I gather from this book. :dunno:

[Michael]

This is a wild goose chase. I haven't been thinking. It's not about reincarnation, because when you're assumed you don't die. It's amzing how we see what we want to see. I like to echoes of one set of beliefs in another - and that's what I incorrectly assumed I found!!! :ph34r:

Looking around it seems quite a few people have had lift off - Moses, Mary, Isaiah and Enoch - that we know of.

The last is the person I have so disrespectfully been refering to as 'the guy'.

Interesting person, reputed to be the great grandfather of Noah and the father of Methusalah. Coined the phrase, 'Son of Man'.

[namtso]

I find that a good shaking of the head helps some of the confusion seem less important! Then, after the sense of dizziness and headache go away, meditation helps clear out the true message: "The end is near! Those that aren't with us are against us! Worship God! Blah! Blah! Blah!"

Okay, so now I'm just being a smart-elick. But that's just about what I gather from this book.

fooc lmao!

[______]

fooc lmao!
:huh: :think: :huh:
i don't follow......

[namtso]

I find that a good shaking of the head helps some of the confusion seem less important! Then, after the sense of dizziness and headache go away, meditation helps clear out the true message: "The end is near! Those that aren't with us are against us! Worship God! Blah! Blah! Blah!"
Okay, so now I'm just being a smart-elick. But that's just about what I gather from this book.
Your post was a crack up, very funny. Those are internet chat acronyms I was using. Check this out - http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/fooc

[______]

Ah! :lol: Shows how much I know about internet acronyms!

[______]

I googled Enoch and found this! He was raptured into heaven!
http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

I only scanned over it lightly. I'm going to study this a little more... Thanks for introducing this, Alpha! :D

[clyde]

This is from an e-mail I sent today:

I’ve been pondering your e-mail and the subject of reincarnation / transmigration. After studying Minding Mind translated by Thomas Clearly (highly recommended Ch’an texts) for several months, I just began reading The Seven-Point Mind Training by B. Alan Wallace (commentary on a Tibetan Buddhist text). It was reading the first section (The Preciousness of Human Life) of the first chapter (The Preliminaries, Which Are Fundamental Dharma) which raised the issue for me.

After a few days of pondering this, an understanding arose which I will share with you. I think reincarnation / transmigration is a pedagogical tool in this way: My experience is that this is my only life and because my life is unique and irreplaceable, it is difficult for me to sense its value. So, the sages, to ease the way for us to sense the preciousness of this human life, taught multiple lives. When I consider multiple lives, I can begin (this is a work in progress) to sense the value, the preciousness of this life. Do you see?

And now it is time to become a non-returner, so that one life or many lives, this is my last life.

May we all be enlightened in this life.

[clyde]

it places 'enlightenment' in the realm of 'eternity'
My understanding is that awakening happens right here, right now.

[______]

My understanding is that awakening happens right here, right now.
I beleive what psyche meant was that we have multiple chances to "get it right".