Boredom Is An Enemy Of Path To Enlightment

[MidnightSun]

"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for." - Ludwig Wittgenstein. But i will try to say this as clear as possible.

First of all some of my quotes.

"Boredom is lack of information"
"A man can handle all the tortures except no tortures"
"Emptiness is the biggest enemy which does not exist"

The first quote says: Boredom is lack of information. Indeed it is, when we dont receive any information form the world we get into condittion called boredom. The second quote says: A man can handle all tortures except no tortures. Its also about lack of information. A man will handle anything (or die) ,but the torture of nothing (feeling of no reaction from anything, including your organs such as nose ,ears etc) is so much more unpleasant. The third quote. Emptiness is the biggest enemy which does not exsist. Emptiness, in this case is boredom, a lack of information.

It all makes sense together. Boredom is lack if information, when u receive no info ur in condition called boredom (yes i msaying that once again). But "nothing" is impossible, so it does not exist. A man can handle all the tortures except no tortures. Thats also about lack of information. And the second quote says that its most torturing ,but as i said there is no nothing (espiacally in terms of psichology). So this enemy, boredom, does not exsist coz u cant receive no information at all. You must always receive something very little. Ur eyes , nose, fingers and so on, receives some info, even a very little piece it still does. And when u realize that there is no boredom, because there is no nothing and receiving no information is boredom, you live by this very moment and u defeat the enemy. As u feel the surroundings and am capable of enjoying what ur eyes see and what ur nose smells, then u can feel even very small things and u enjoy this very moment. Then ur victorious, defeating the enemy of the path to enlightment - boredom and this is the way to enlightment.

So that is my thought about boredom being the enemy of path to enlightment.

I hope this wansnt too long to read and was worth ur attention. All replies are welcome, please stay on the topic, thank you. :)

[Thomas Knierim]

Boredom is an expression of craving. I think it has nothing to do with lack of information, or lack of anything. The perception of lack is a false perception, which is part of the craving. Craving is an obstacle, you got that right.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

So, what is it a craving for?

[MidnightSun]

Please explain further so i can comment on it.

Well in my opinion, as many of small children say when they are bored, is that they have nothing to do (so they bugg their parents asking this :D ), nothing around is happening. So thats what got me the idea that boredom is lack of information, but i admit that its the weakest quote of those that i have posted.

The final point of the post (i would like to comment about it a bit more) was that lack of information will trouble you if u want to reach enlightment. In a buddhist way of perspective it would mean that desire for that information from surroundings, as an every other form of desire, will lead u to suffering (boredom) and wont let u to reach the enlightment.

And yes Thomas it may very well be a false perception.

Im here not to discuss but to do some philosophy :D

[Smurf]

I think that it is a craving and a lack of information together :P

A craving for new information?
If we were bored, according to Midnight's post, we have a lack of information
but perhaps it is not a lack of just information, but new or interesting information. So to connect it with Thomas' post we just incorporate the craving for new or interesting information...

:dunno:

[Thomas Knierim]

It is quite common for young people to get bored. Never mind. The craving is obviously for sensory input. Old people often have the reverse problem. They complain about too much sensory input. Too loud. Too flashy. Too much.

It's just the natural course of human perception.

It is important to note that the perceived lack of sensory input in case of young people or the sensory overload in case of older people is a false perception. In pyschology this is called "externalisation". It means that you rationalise your negative experience (boredom/annoyance) to have an external cause, whereas the real cause is internal. This means the real cause lies with the momentary conditioning of the mind.

If you are bored or annoyed, this almost always means your mind is doing the monkey thing. :help:

Cheers, Thomas

[Smurf]

but you still need the external influence?
Without the information in the first place there would be no internal perception

[scameter]

Ok, so it's physical. Your explanation still doesn't make sense. We equate things like boredom with too much or too little sensory input, but you said that is wrong actually. So, what is it?

[Thomas Knierim]

Smurf: but you still need the external influence? Without the information in the first place there would be no internal perception.

Mental events are usually the confluence of sense impressions and internal states. This means there is an external component, namely the phenomena that cause sense impressions. It is a common mistake to think that perception represents these phenomena in an objective way, wheras in reality perceptions are always coloured by internal states. What is more, perceptions are not always dependent on external phenomena. For example, the brain is capable of generating its own "perceptions" during the dream state, or during wakefulness in a sensory deprivation chamber.

Scameter: We equate things like boredom with too much or too little sensory input, but you said that is wrong actually. So, what is it?

It is basically the position, or the attitude you take. Both boredom and annoyance result from different attitudes.

Cheers, Thomas

[kowtaaia]

Boredom comes from loneliness and loneliness is the movement away from what we are: nothing.

[Thomas Knierim]

That's a good point. Boredom and loneliness are very similar.They may engender each other.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

It is basically the position, or the attitude you take. Both boredom and annoyance result from different attitudes.

And attitudes are emotional states. So, what emotional states would create boredom and/or annoyance?

Boredom comes from loneliness and loneliness is the movement away from what we are: nothing.

But, loneliness is being alone. How could it be moving away from nothing?

[kowtaaia]

Loneliness isn't being alone.

[scameter]

<_< So, you can be lonely without being alone?

[Thomas Knierim]

Scameter: And attitudes are emotional states.

No, attitudes are more complex, more lasting, and more intractable than emotional states. Some of them can last a lifetime. The foundation of attitudes are the ideas and views you hold. There are right ones and wrong ones. Boredom -like many cravings- results from the wrong idea that there is something lacking.

Scameter: So, you can be lonely without being alone?

Certainly. You can be lonely in a room full of people. At one point or another, everybody makes this experience. Loneliness results from the wrong idea that you are separated from others.

Cheers, Thomas

[Smurf]

Mental events are usually the confluence of sense impressions and internal states. This means there is an external component, namely the phenomena that cause sense impressions. It is a common mistake to think that perception represents these phenomena in an objective way, wheras in reality perceptions are always coloured by internal states. What is more, perceptions are not always dependent on external phenomena. For example, the brain is capable of generating its own "perceptions" during the dream state, or during wakefulness in a sensory deprivation chamber.

oh yes yes, of course there are perceptions - but all I am saying is that without the stimulus the brain cannot respond ...

and with dreaming, there normally needs to be a prior experience to something for the brain to repeat etc, so here the external influence applies I guess?

[scameter]

Not all emotional states are short-lasting. Nor are attitudes long-lasting. Attitudes are also centered around emotion(s). This is why I called attitudes emotional states.

Of course you can be lonely in a room full of people, but then you feel that you are alone. I didn't mean just physically alone. But, I don't think that is what loneliness is, how you defined it. I think loneliness is the feeling that you are alone, which causes depression. If you are alone and are not depressed by/aware of it, you're not lonely.

[kowtaaia]

So, you can be lonely without being alone?

...and vice-versa. Have you heard of 'meditation? :)

[MidnightSun]

So, you can be lonely without being alone?

Yes, of course :)

[redraven]

I'm going to second and expand on Thomas a little bit:

"Boredom is a lack of information, along with the desire for information."

So getting rid of the desire for "information" or in my mind "stimulation" would be enlightenment.

However, just to be fair, meditation can be, and often is, one of the most awful boring practices one can ever undertake. This morning I wasn't bored, but I was in so much pain that I had to quit early.

This is why I find all of that Therevedan meditation that is so complex so alarming. I've done zazen for years, and I can't imagine picturing Kwan Yin pouring the light of compassion in my soul. It sounds like a good acid trip. That's not the reason I'm not Therevedan, but it's something I don't understand.

Zazen can make being a 12 year old girl waiting for her boyfriend to call seem like a really stimulating experience.

Maybe boredom is necessary for enlightenment, but shunyatta without desire wouldn't be boring, it would just be... unexplainable I would say. And studies have shown that all forms of meditation induce sensory deprivation. The Buddhist would say that we are mortifying our senses, the scientists, making ourselves very suggestable.

They're both right of course, because East and West complement each other.

[redraven]

As for sensory deprivation chambers:

What happens is that the brain takes the miniscule stimuli remaining in a sensory deprivation chamber and amplifies them. I pretty much agree that the brain needs some sort of stimulus to operate. The more deprived of senses it is, the more whacko the person becomes.

In meditation, you have sensory deprivation, but you also have the normal every day stimuli. I know people that have hallucinated while meditating (not a good thing, it means you're too "in your head" too withdrawn, and also, that you should forget about the hallucinations when you get up and stop trying to be the greatest boddhisattva that ever lived) and there are a whole lot of other things that can happen. One time, I was sitting zazen, and I was facing my piano, and I heard the music on the page on my piano in my head. I've played it a million times, no big deal, but it does kind of give you a start.

Sensory deprivation chambers=highly dangerous
Meditation=mildly dangerous as long as you're not either high on acid or trying to be the greatest boddhisattva that ever lived.

Oh the stories I could tell you! One friend of mine on the Internet had this vision while doing meditation against his teacher's advice, and had written a forty page sutra by the time he came to his senses that we don't need any more sutras. :lol: He called me crying and then when I got him calmed down he sent it to me and we both laughed. :lol: It was really terrible.

That's the path. I'm very stable, people call me "Petros" sometimes because I'm like a rock. But I have my own things. Once while smoking a pipe I believed that I had contacted a Tibetan oracle in another worldly realm, also smoking a pipe, and doing his work as an oracle. It's just as bad as writing a 40 page sutra.

Most people aren't as nuts as me though, but I tell my friends this stuff, and they have similar problems because of their meditation. It makes you wonder why anyone bothers sometimes! But then, I'm a better person than when I started too. Go figure.

[scameter]

Have you heard of 'meditation?

Yes. I know that you can be alone without being lonely. But you cannot be lonely without being alone, in any sense, as I described earlier.

[MidnightSun]

"Boredom is a lack of information, along with the desire for information."

I love for someone to edit my quotes :D

So getting rid of the desire for "information" or in my mind "stimulation" would be enlightenment.

Yes, thats why i said that it troubles you to reach enlightment, of course any other desire does too.

[______]

Boredom is the enemy of the Path.... <_<

I think it's one of the many obstacles, yes. But not the biggest.

When I first began meditation, I found myself very bored with it. Over time, I learned and grew in my practice. Now, I love meditation and it's fruits.

Boredom is a lack of information, along with the desire for information.

Trying to "understand the enemy" are we?

[MidnightSun]

When I first began meditation, I found myself very bored with it. Over time, I learned and grew in my practice. Now, I love meditation and it's fruits.

When i first began meditation it was ok but now im bored with it :lol:

Trying to "understand the enemy" are we?

Of course :D

[______]

Ah, but the object should be to understand yourself. :D

[______]

When i first began meditation it was ok but now im bored with it

What type of meditation are you currently practicing?

[MidnightSun]

I tryed a lot of types of meditation, but mostly i am working on the simple breathing meditation or simply trying to think about nothing.

[______]

i am just trying to get my mind to STFU
...simply trying to think about nothing.

:lol:
I think this is why you find meditation boring. I did the same when I first started. While the goal is to calm the mind and focus it single-pointedly, your mind just won't "STFU". Try instead insight meditation.

[MidnightSun]

What do u exactly reccomend?

[______]

I could explain it here, but I think this site has a good explanation on good meditations to try. I particularly enjoy meditation on the present moment. It makes me feel so energized! :D

http://www.insightmeditation.org/meditation.htm

[Brahmanyan]

Boredom is the result of "thamasic Nature", comes out of sedentary life, which certainly stops you on the path to enlightment.

[namtso]

Old people often have the reverse problem. They complain about too much sensory input. Too loud. Too flashy. Too much.

YES, I can attest to that myself and I'm only 45 yrs. old! Worse still, cars with those loud stereos with the base that just travels up my spine and makes me start looking for a crowbar. And the terrible thing about that is that when I was younger I use to do exactly the same thing. Oh the hypocrisy, the embarrassment, the humiliation. When they come out with a sound canceling cannon I'm going to buy one and mount it to the roof of my van, ar ar.

[______]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Nam's gettin' old! ;)

[namtso]

And creaky. And bald! Geez. I'm going to buy an electric clipper probably this weekend, a Wahl or something like it and start giving myself buzz/burr cuts on #1 setting. No point in paying someone else $15 to do that haircut when I can do it myself.

But I also just bought my first Linkin Park CD, Meteora and bought a CD of Nina Hagen that I used to have but couldn't find. My friends and I went through our punk/new wave music period back in the 80's. I wonder how many of the younger folks on TBV have never heard of Siouxse & the Banshees. That group was very big some years ago. How about Simple Minds? I've also got a lot of classical music CDs and classic rock like Beatles, Buffalo Springfield and CSN&Y etc plus some jazz and a few other styles. You might be getting a picture as to why I'm in debt now, ar ar.

[______]

And creaky. And bald! Geez. I'm going to buy an electric clipper probably this weekend, a Wahl or something like it and start giving myself buzz/burr cuts on #1 setting. No point in paying someone else $15 to do that haircut when I can do it myself.
Making yourself bald before nature forces it? :lol:

Sounds like something I'd do! :D

[namtso]

Making yourself bald before nature forces it?
That's it exactly. Plus I discovered I like it much better that way. One girl barber called it "wash and wear" which is a great way to look at it. Plus there's none of that annoying hair blowing in the face thing when you're blazing down the road with the windows open. The only down side is that when you hit your head on the underside of an aircraft. there's nothing even remotely cushioning the blow any more. Lots of guys at work wear baseball caps so they don't end up having a head covered with scars. Unique solutions for unique jobs.



Boredom Is An Enemy Of Path To Enlightment, Lack of information

What do u exactly reccomend?
I know it's easy for me to completely burn up all of my free time with magazines, radio, surfing the net and television if I hadn't canceled cable. My TV is in the shipping box again. I'd say first of all that the best advice I have ever heard is that you should only start out meditating for just as long as you can maintain some focus and not get bored/fall asleep. If you don't do it that way you can end up getting really frustrated and end up actually avoiding medation. That's just what I've heard. I'm not a very sucessful meditator myself. Then supposedly it becomes second nature to meditate and as you get more skilled, you also find that you really enjoy it more. I've read that it's important to set aside a specific time of the day and try to stick to that. Making it a habit being more important than the length of the meditiation when you are first starting out. Again, I'm not an expert in this area, others here may want to add to this.


I think this is why you find meditation boring. I did the same when I first started. While the goal is to calm the mind and focus it single-pointedly, your mind just won't "STFU". Try instead insight meditation.
That sounds like a good way to go to me. Also you've probably already heard it but when you notice all the random non-stop thoughts your mind generates on it's own it may seem like you are progressively getting worse at meditation and concentration. That's often referred to as the "monkey mind". It's actually the opposite that is taking place. When you realize that, you are beginning to get a clear glimpse of what the mind does all the time on it's own. It's the first step to being able to relax, sit and meditate. Others here can do a better job describing it than me and suggest more solutions etc. Plus I gotta blaze out of here, gonna be late for work.

[______]

I'm not a very sucessful meditator myself.
Define "success" in meditation.
Others here can do a better job describing it than me and suggest more solutions etc.
I think you've done a good job of explaining it. Sound a little rushed though. <_<
Plus I gotta blaze out of here, gonna be late for work.
Ah! :lol: I see now! Don't want that to happen!

Go! Now! :gone: :lol:

[namtso]

Define "success" in meditation.
Good point. Too general of a statement on my part. What I'm referring to is sucess in staying focused on the subject of mediation without falling asleep or allowing the monkey mind to take over. In short, I don't practice enough. I've also got a godzillion books and don't spend nearly enough time reading them. I'm so terribly ashamed of myself ....... ok, not really.

I think you've done a good job of explaining it. Sound a little rushed though.
Thanks and yup.

Update: Ended up calling in a vacation day after all. Need sleeeeeeeeeep ...... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[namtso]

Making yourself bald before nature forces it?
Clippers are in the mail. A friend at work says just have a razor handy and a baseball cap if I botch it. Then you just go from bald to buzz cut in a couple of days.

[______]

Update: Ended up calling in a vacation day after all. Need sleeeeeeeeeep ...... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I wish I could do that. If I call in sick or something:
1.)My higher-ups--ALL of them--must know what's going on.
2.)My Sergeant comes to check up on me.
3.)I feel really guilty for my selfishness and lying about it.

[namtso]

Update: Ended up calling in a vacation day after all. Need sleeeeeeeeeep ...... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I wish I could do that. If I call in sick or something:
1.)My higher-ups--ALL of them--must know what's going on.
2.)My Sergeant comes to check up on me.
3.)I feel really guilty for my selfishness and lying about it.

Here at work we have both paid sick and paid vacation time. We can go on the company intranet to see how much we have. More hours get added once a month. If we have it we can use it. It's a pretty good system. In the military it's a whole different deal I guess. Much more strict. A lot of our managers were officers or chiefs in the military. They try to operate the way they did while they were in the military but it doesn't work. They usually mellow out some. The discipline has it's place while serving, I would think. It's got to operate like an organism, yes? Quick commands, quick response.

[namtso]

I don't know if this will help with the original intent of this thread but here's this -

Turning the Mind into an Ally, Teachings on Meditation, DVD
By: Sakyong Mipham $28
http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Turning_the_Mi...DVD_p/12946.htm (http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Turning_the_Mind_into_an_Ally_DVD_p/12946.htm)
or
http://www.amazon.com/Sakyong-Mipham-Rinpo...3557503?ie=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.com/Sakyong-Mipham-Rinpoche-Teachings-Meditation/dp/B0000U0KYQ/ref=sr_11_1/104-7172706-3557503?ie=UTF8)

I do seem to have the tendency to recommend buying something, book, CD, DVD etc. as an answer to questions and discussions here on TBV. Some "stuff" just seems to be pretty good, valuable, for learning, info. Can get expensive though. Specially that DVD - $28, sheesh!

[Starry_Canopy]

Sometimes boredom, in my meditation, is "nothing new happening".

This happens when I reach some sort of plateau, there being no 'advancement'.

Actually things are happening that I am not aware of. When enough of them have happened there is a sudden upsurge of wonderful new things happening.

So, when there is boredom, I find that I need to keep going, keeping in mind that I am not the best evaluator of changes that I cannot perceive.

This is what I have experienced, may be different for others.

[______]

Turning the Mind into an Ally...
@ Nam-
You mentioned this DVD. I got the book in my package deal along with my zafu and zabuton plus a box of insense. I'm reading now. Sakyong Mipham puts everything into plain layman's terms. It's really informative and has got me looking at things I once thought I was familiar with in a whole new way.
Sometimes boredom, in my meditation, is "nothing new happening".
@ Starry-
When I encounter boredom--much more often than I'd like--I remind myself that this is only one sitting and that by working through the boredom I am cultivating patience. Perhaps finding so much boredom has paid off as I am much more patient with others and their opinions. :D

[Starry_Canopy]

by working through the boredom I am cultivating patience

That's very true! :)

A respected spiritual teacher in the early 20th century (Sai Baba of Shirdi) used to teach that for reaching spiritual goals the two indispensable attitudes required were faith and patience.

Perhaps finding so much boredom has paid off as I am much more patient with others and their opinions.

:lol: