Buddhism

[Intrigued]

Hi, short time reader of the site... but I have been very satisfied with the wealth and depth of information, but I was wondering if anyone could help me with a couple short questions, which I don't expect to see definite answers for. I have recently read a lot on buddhism, read over the dhammapadda (excuse my spelling if im messing anything up, usually im not too bad), and looked at a few interpretations of the eightfold path (and the four truths before it), etc. Just figured I'd give some background information there. On to the subject, I've been trying to find information on any Buddhist belief (based on sect or as a whole) or speculation of creation, and what the belief system of god/s/ess/esses is in use, if any. The one thing I've heard on creation is that the buddhist belief system tends toward not even bothering with attempting to find this answer, as all of existence is a condition of comings into beings, or something of the like. I was wondering if anyone could clarify any of this, or shine a new light onto the subject. (Just to mention, I did scan through the 4 pages of topics here and none seemed to address the matter at hand). Thank you in advance for any help that any of you might offer, and for any tactful corrections of spelling or idealogical errors.

[Thomas Knierim]

Okay, brief answer: Buddhism is non-theistic and therefore creation-agnostic. In Buddhism, creation is not associated with divine powers, intelligent design, or anything like that. On the contrary, Buddhism holds that "all phenomena are amalgamations of other phenomena", which is basically a determinist point of view. It is compatible with the view of present day science.

Cheers, Thomas

[schrodinger]

After years of living in Thailand, reading up on Buddhism, asking questions and making observations, there is still something I do not understand: When a Buddhist kneels and lights incense and/or a candle, and clasps hands together in a moment of prayer (even if it is just to ask for the winning lottery number), Just Who is it that the Buddhist is praying to? If it is Buddha, does that not mean Buddha is a Deity? :huh:

[Thomas Knierim]

You lived in Thailand for years?

[Thomas Knierim]

The general idea of prayer in Buddhism is that it invokes certain spiritual/psychological states, which makes the mind amenable to spiritual development. There are also people who believe in spiritual entities, for example Avalokiteshvara, and who pray to these entities. They usually stand for a certain "perfection of the mind", e.g. Avalokiteshvara stands for the perfection of compassion and by praying to this (symbolic) entity, Buddhists hope to invoke the capacity of compassion. Then you often find local animistic beliefs mixed with Buddhism, for example in Tibet or in Thailand, where people believe in ghosts or divinities. It is pretty complex.

Cheers, Thomas

[schrodinger]

It is indeed complex! I have asked Thais this same question, and I usually get a blank stare, and usually the answer is that thet are indeed praying to "Buddha". Most of the Thai Buddhists I talk to ( other than monks ), do not seem to have really studied the precepts or the core values. They were simply born into it, and quite a few do think of it as a way to get winning lottery numbers, or whatever else they want. On the other hand, I have met foreigners, such as yourself, and to a lesser degree, myself, who have studied Buddhism in greater depth than most Thais. Just an observation, not a criticism of Thai Buddhists.

[Intrigued]

I don't pretend to have studied Buddhism for any great length of time, but even I find it hard to belief that the essence of the religion could end up so twisted as to have people "praying" to Siddartha Gautama (I haven't figured out if it's proper yet to just say Buddha referring to him, as I have heard that he declared that there have been those who have reached the status of Buddha before him and there will be those who do after him). Thank you both very much for your input by the way. I have actually researched a bit into a lot of different stuff to look at different views and theories on these kinds of questions, and Buddhism is one that I can relate to very strongly, especially within the four truths and the eightfold path, it's wise almost beyond belief, and just reading up on a lot of it/practicing some has given me a much greater sense of peace on a lot of things (my life has been in somewhat of a turmoil over the past year). One of my problems, if that, is that I've always looked at these things very definitively, and, back before I'd ever done any research on it, spent some time just thinking and reflecting, and I've never been able to come to the conclusion that there was not a divine source... that is to say, I cannot yet believe that it was not some higher power that created the universe, so when I saw that this infinitely wise path seemed to almost disreguard the matter, it was kind of strange to me. I did however read one of the essays a day or two ago, it was on a scientific view compatible with Buddhism where (perhaps) it was a deity that wanted to end its own existence, and, in order to, it became the universe. Obviously I didn't state it quite as well as the whole long essay, but all very interesting food for thought. It's just that lingering feeling in me, that can maybe believe in the big bang, or some alternate theory, but is never satisfied with the fact that it could come out of nothing... Well, anyways, thanks again, and good luck to all of you on your individual searches for wisdom.

[scameter]

Thomas, that is quite true, many of their views do coincide with science, as the Dalai Lama illustrated in his book The Universe in a Single Atom. He also said, in that book, that buddhism believes in the interconnectedness of things in existence, and that things in existence depend on one another for existence. For instance, we depend on light, water, food, the ground, electricity for both our tools and for our neurological system, gravity, etc. Things in existence cannot escape one another; indeed, cannot exist without one another. He said that science also either has or is taking on this view of reality.

[Thomas Knierim]

schrodinger: They were simply born into it, and quite a few do think of it as a way to get winning lottery numbers, or whatever else they want.

You are right. I don't want to sound arrogant, but many Thai lay people are tremendously ignorant about Buddhism (that is of course not true for the monks). On the whole, people tend to engage in the outer forms, rituals, prayers, offerings, etc., without knowing very much about the origins and meanings. I guess it's not too different from our Christian society (see Sunday church going, lip service, and all that).

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

I agree entirely, which is why I think it is unfortunate how people often view Christianity from looking at those ignorant of it.

[W[oIa]nderingMind]

I think you pretty much got it right yourself when you stated that this is not a big deal / concern for Busshists!

I think the The Dîgha-Nikâya Brahma-gâla Sutta covers part of you question

WebLink (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/dob/dob-01tx.htm)

I don't like that transaltion - a better one is this

one (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0861711033?v=glance)

[redraven]

In Buddhism, the world is uncreated. There are Gods and Goddesses and other worlds and heavenly realms and hell and bodhisattvas and even at least 28 Buddhas, but the Universe is constantly remaking itself. In a sense, the Universe continues to exist because of Universal Karma. The Worlds and all the beings in them reincarnate when the world ends in a new Universe. Thomas is right, there are no creator Gods, and even Brahma dies and is reborn.

As for praying to Buddha: If Nirvana is truly nothingness, as the Mahayana believe, then in essence Shrodinger is right, you are praying to nothing. Buddha died, of eating pork of all things, which makes for an interesting story that I will tell sometime.

However, Nirvana is empty, but emptiness is also empty. So it exists but it is empty. So Buddha is dead, but he is in Nirvana, and exists. I haven't ever accomplished the realization of Nirvana, so it's beyond my understanding, but that is what Buddhists say.

As for the Bodhisattvas, they are still men (and women I hope) and they are alive in their bodhisattva realms. (It sounds like a good job.) My belief is that these other worlds overlap with ours, and that we are constantly shifting in reality as time passes. Ever had a dream about a realistic event, but it didn't happen? Maybe it was real in another world and someone showed it to you somehow. I don't know how, but there you are. It could have just been a dream too.