God's Chosen People

[CSwriter1]

How did the tribal God of the Hebrews, become everyone's God? The bible clearly says the Hebrews were God's chosen people. It clearly says Hebrews are not to be slaves because of their special relationship with God, but they can own slaves. Tribal relationships are based on blood line, and only those so connected with the Hebrew tribe are among the chosen people. Everyone else is outside the tribe of God's chosen people, so how does the God of the chosen people, the only ones with whom this God has a convenant, become everyone's God?

Or how did the Hebrews get chosen, to the exclusion of all the rest of us?

[Smurf]

Ok so you're asking if all Christian non-hebrews are not actually Christians spiritually? :P

yeah interesting point Cswriter, but I think that because they were God's chosen people doesn't exclude everyone else, people can still believe in the one God. Yeah interesting, but I do not think that chosen people refers to one's beliefs, more of an ownership problem I think? :unsure:

[Thomas Knierim]

CSWriter: How did the tribal God of the Hebrews, become everyone's God?

Generally trough a process of adoption by sects in the Greco-Roman world, and specifically through Pauline dogma which is far removed from the Mosaic/Judaic dogma. The sects were initially very splintered, but the adoption by the Roman elite and later the Roman empire was probably crucial for the spread of Christianity.

CSWriter: The bible clearly says the Hebrews were God's chosen people.

That's what the OT says, not the Bible. The OT is a Jewish book.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Jesus cs.

[Smurf]

hee hee Is Cs Jesus? :D

[scameter]

:P That's not what I meant.

[CSwriter1]

Can we think about this a little more deeply? Yes, many people adopted the Hebrew God as their God, but this does not make them God's chosen people. According to the old testament which is part of the King's Jame Bible, a God chose a tribe as special people, and this made them different from all the rest of humanity which were not His chosen people, and never can be. This God has a covenant with these people, and only these people; not the rest of humanity.

How is it rationalized this God is a universal God, and anyone can become as His chosen people? I am saying this can not be done. You are not one of God's chosen people unless you have blood ties to his chosen people, and therefore, you are not part of the covenant with God. These chosen people can give you food that God does not allow them to eat, because it is unclean. Hello! this God has different rules for His chosen people who are to live be treated differently, than the rules for all the rest of us. We can enter the holy land God gave his people, but we can never, ever be His chosen people, nor belong to that land.

Most of us are not this God's people and never can be, because the choice is this God's choice to make, not ours. We are godless because this God did not choose us. This God did not Christians. They might as expect an inheritance from Bill Gates as expect to enter a heaven that is for God's chosen people, not all of humanity. We have no right to land in Israel, and no right to sit with the Father of the Hebrews in heaven.

[scameter]

According to the old testament which is part of the King's Jame Bible, a God chose a tribe as special people, and this made them different from all the rest of humanity which were not His chosen people, and never can be. This God has a covenant with these people, and only these people; not the rest of humanity.

So the OT says. I personally do not think it can be entirely trusted as being literal; I think by "God's chosen people", the Jews were "chosen" by God to be the first with knowledge of the one and only God. But, this doesn't make God exempt from the rest of humanity, especially after Jesus came.

How is it rationalized this God is a universal God, and anyone can become as His chosen people?

He is within us. And we are apart of him, made in his image. This is why I said what I did above, about the "chosen people".

[Thomas Knierim]

CSWriter: We have no right to land in Israel, and no right to sit with the Father of the Hebrews in heaven.

Hilarious!

Well, it is one of the contradictions in the Bible and unfortunately not the only one. It has been previously mentioned that the OT is incompatible with the NT. This is indeed true to the degree that one could gain the impression the God of the Old Testament is completely different from the God in the New Testament.

Let's see what is Jewish about Christinity. It is known that Jesus was a Jewish teacher. It is also known that the OT is a Hebrew book and that it sums up the Jewish belief which has existed hundreds of years prior to Jesus' appearance. So, it does not come as a surprise that the Jews are God's chosen people according to the books of the OT.

In spite of this, it is not so difficult to understand how Christianity became a global religion, not a religion for the Jews, but a religion for everyone. It's (1) because the teachings of Jesus are universal; they are not specifically adressed to the Jews; and (2) because the NT and the dogma expressed therein is likewise universal. The NT dogma sort of overrrides the OT dogma, at least that's how Christians have dealt with the problem of incompatibility ever since. The question is, however, why is the OT still part of the Bible? Why wasn't it kicked out of the Christian canon right away? Wouldn't it have been a "cleaner" solution to get rid of the incompatibilities and make the Bible identical with the NT?

In fact, there were ecclestial movements in early Christianity, specifically the Marcionites (named after its founder Marcion of Sinope) who were opposed to the OT and who wanted the Hebrew Bible out, because they basically thought it was rotten. These groups attracted a substantial following. On the other hand, there were Jewish Christians, in particular the Ebionites -which even exist today- who were strongly attached to the OT teachings and accepted only certain parts of the NT. The mainstream ecclestial organisation, what became the Roman Catholic Church later on, appeared to have aimed at a statesmanlike compromise by keeping the OT canonical, possibly not to lose its Jewish following, while emphasising the NT and the universal aspects of Christianity rather than Judaic dogma. Once the mainstream Christian Church was established and stable -in the 4th century- both Marcionism and Ebionism were denounced heretical.

This might clear things up from a historical perspective.

Cheers, Thomas

[CSwriter1]

Scameter, the Hebrews were not the first to believe in one God. Perhaps the history of monothesism would be a good thread by itself.

Thomas, thank you. The important word you used is "universal". Rome has developed money and is doing this empire thing of assimulating many different people, and is buidling roads and commerce, which really changes how people precieve reality.

Helenism is deliberately spread through the known world, by colonization, and a university which attracts the great thinkers of the known world to Athens. Gnosis, Persian religion, and Stoicsm, and possibly Buddhism are getting mixed into this growning conscious. Thomas, can you clarify the Buddhist part of what is happening? The teachings of Jesus are not so different from Buddhist teachings are parables.

[scameter]

Scameter, the Hebrews were not the first to believe in one God. Perhaps the history of monothesism would be a good thread by itself.

I know, which is why I didn't say they were the first monotheistic civilization. But, their version of one God is different from any other, and because their version of God was singular to themselves, I think this can possibly account for them calling themselves God's chosen people.

[CSwriter1]

Scameter, I think the more we learn of the past, the less special religions evolved out the Hebrew father worship of the God of Abraham will appear. Father worship. You know ancestor worship.

This is not so different from how citizens treat their emperors or presidents, or city founders, those whom they call forefathers. Except we are not directly related to our emperors and presidents and have universal relationships with them. The God of the Jews is not a universal God. He is a tribal God dependent on a blood relation.

The the Arabs (Islam), have a blood relationship with Jews. Ishmeal was born to a woman other than Abrahams wife and in jealousy she ordered Abraham to abandoned his first son, and he did. By his human choices, the Arabs do not have a legitimate claim to the Holy Land that is for the descendants of Abraham. They are as bastard children and they are not part of God's convenant.

Be clear on this. The Arabs are descentants of Abraham, but are not part of the covenant with God.
Christians aren't even descendants of Abraham, and they do not have a covenant with God. They can be the slaves of those who do have a coverant with God.
Those who have a covenant with God can not eat certian foods, but they can give this food to those who do not related by blood to Abraham. Get a grip. The rest of humanity is little better than cattle to the descendants of Abraham. How well does this sit with you?

Read your bible more carefully. Christians and Muslims are not special to the God of Abraham and never will be. They are all as bastard children wanting to claim the Father is their Father, but He is not their Father! Now you have a choice. You can accept being a bastard child who has no Father (God), or you can decide the God of Abraham is not the true God. Wishing this Father to be your Father is not going to make it so.

[sonrisa]

which is why I reject that god. Besides, speaking as a woman, that god has nothing to offer us. I cannot understand why women would worship him. ;)

[CSwriter1]

I believe so many people worship the Hebrews tribal God, because they don't know any better and are afraid of the wrath of this God, or of loosing their immorality, if heavens! they don't believe. I remember going through that fear when I dared to question the reality of this God. Giving up this God is like giving up a lucky rabbits foot, or whatever else it is that we believe will make our lives better simply by some magical power that requires nothing of us other than to believe. It is frightening to be brought up on this mythology and then give it up! :uhoh: I still have my moments of fearing the thunder bolts and have to think way through such notions.

Fundamentalist Christians usually know little of history and other cultures, because learning takes effort and few want to put in the effort, besides they believe everything we need to know is in the bible. Too bad Jesus told us Satan makes people ill, instead of explaining bacteria and viruses and the importance of cleanliness. The Hebrews knew about unclean things, but Jesus undid all that by mixing in the demonology coming from the east, and saying we don't need to wash our hands.

Christianity makes everything very simple and requires nothing of them but that they worship this fearsome, jealous and revenge God. They don't have to worry how they are going to eat or clothe themselves, because this God will take care of them. If anything goes wrong, it is Satan causing the problem, and they only need to worship God even more intensely for this God to make their lives better, or at least help them endure their suffering. In the end they will be rewarded with 10 virgins.

[schrodinger]

CSwriter1: Christianity makes everything very simple and requires nothing of them but that they worship this fearsome, jealous and revenge God. They don't have to worry how they are going to eat or clothe themselves, because this God will take care of them. If anything goes wrong, it is Satan causing the problem, and they only need to worship God even more intensely for this God to make their lives better, or at least help them endure their suffering. In the end they will be rewarded with 10 virgins.

The Christians get TEN! I think the Muslim suicide bombers are getting SEVENTEEN! Sorry if I ssem to be making a joke out of this, but most religions are a joke. We would be better off wiping the slate clean and start over again. Meanwhile, wars are fought over this kind of nonsense. If you were an alien, would you even bother to visit this place??

[sonrisa]

nope

[Zeppish]

Jesus was a Jew and the orginal christins came from Jewish parents? Therefore its part of the blood line isnt it?

And besides this...when you say EVERYONE your making this big sweeping statement like its Everyone's god...

Well thats all fine and dandy but not everyone belives in this monothesism one god thing. Theres still a lot of polythestic religions, like hinduism. So... i dont understand that...

[scameter]

Actually Hinduism is more varied than that. Many versions of Hindus see Brahman as one god with the other personalities as aspects of him, but indeed, others see him as the only one with no other personalities; others see the personalities as being other gods and goddesses; and so on. This is part of what I like about it: it's open to variation.

[Zeppish]

even if jesus is for everyone,

arent christines still orginally part of the bloodline, therefore still "the choosen people"?

[Zeppish]

and i aggree that there are converts to judasim and christanity...

but ....techinally i still believe that since Jesus was a jew...the christians are Jews to... just a different sect of judasim... and one that has left far from its roots

But remeber the last suppur was the passover meal

and i bet the holy grail was really a Kaddish cup...

sooo there still traces of Jews in christianity...weather they know it or not...

[TruthSeeker]

God chooses people? Why? For what? By what criteria?

[CSwriter1]

even if jesus is for everyone,

arent christines still orginally part of the bloodline, therefore still "the choosen people"?

No, and this is one of the biggest problems Christianity had to over come. Can an uncircumised adult be considered as among those who have a covenant with God? Jews circumised their males soon after birth because this is part of the covenant with God. When Christianity made this God a universal God, many wanted to be members, but didn't want to be circumised. That would not have been a problem if they were born Hebrew. I think it was Paul who argued for accepting uncircumised males as Christians.

[CSwriter1]

Psyche, the Jews are not the only people with a story saying they are God's chosen people. It is just the only story that was brought to our civilized and is commonly known.

The Aztec story of being God's chosen people is so similar, I wonder about the truth of the Book of Moron.
The Book of Moron is so racist and sexest I can not accept it as a book of God, but the pryamids in south American and the religious similarities can make a person wonder. There is very interesting evidence that there was a connection between the continents, and the lost tribe of Hebrews could have crossed the ocean. Or perhaps the stories are similar simply because humans imagine such things.

[TruthSeeker]

The Japanese and Chinese also believed (believe?) they are the centre of the world. In Chinese, the world "China" is literally "centre country"...

[Thomas Knierim]

The belief of the Jews is just as delusional as that of the Aztecs, the Romans, the Chinese, the Greek world map, or the geocentric model. Only it hasn't been dropped yet. :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[CSwriter1]

Come to think of it, a native American tribe's name means "the real people". Hum, wonderful folks! I feel liberated. You know, as in, "the truth shall set you free." Now can we work on the rest of the world? How I wish we could get this truth to the rest of the world.

All the holy books attempt to get us to live in peace and to be good to each other. They would probably could do what they are suppose to do if it weren't for that darn belief that God has favorites.

[TruthSeeker]

Indeed...

[CSwriter1]

An agreement?

I like what you said Psyche. That point of view slips out of my mind, when I see a world at war with itself.

Wow, it goes nicely with, "What you see in others is a reflection of yourself."

This all would be Hindu consciousness. Exactly how different is Buddha consciousness?

Thomas, would dare a new thread comparing Buddha and Hindu consciousness?

[Thomas Knierim]

The "New Topic" button is there for everyone. :D

Cheers, Thomas

[TruthSeeker]

The world would be a lot more peaceful if everyone agreed like we do...

Kumbayaaaaaa!!! Kumbaya!! Kumbayaaaaaaa!!! Kumbayaa!!!!!
:grouphug: :peace:

:goodlaugh: