Western Society: Is It A Hinderance?

[UtopianGrade]

I find it hard to keep a positive mind frame when being asulted around the clock by advertiments and people with disregaurd for others....not saying these people dont exist in other cultures, it seems they are more dominate in north america (having not left the continent i could not comment on Europe ect)

Is the solution to live a hermits life :lol:

[scameter]

I find the same disgruntlment my friend, and unfortunately I am as lost in a solution to it as you appear to be. Honestly, I only know to live with it as best you can; I, however, plan on eventually trying our Europe and other places to see if they're as bad as America, but by knowing how people generally are, I think they will be similar, very similar indeed, everywhere.

[lenin32]

Every culture on this planet is being tainted by western beliefs as we speak. It is inevitable that the western belief system will lead to the downfall of the human race.

[Thomas Knierim]

I can assure you that the average Asian city is probably far worse what concerns the "risk of sensory overload". You can pick any road in Bombay, Bangkok, Tokyo, or Hong Kong and your senses will be assaulted by advertising boards, mobile phone addicts, chaotic traffic, extreme noise, strange smells from food stalls, annoying street hawkers, rude drivers, and I-don't-know-what. The average American or European cityscape almost looks like a sanatorium by comparison. :o

Western Society is probably not a hindrance in this regard.

The thing is: you need to realise that your state of mind is not dependent upon these external circumstances. It is up to you to take in those influences or to reject them. The difficulty is to get to the point where this strength can be realised. This is not an easy task. A boisterous, noisy, and obnoxious environment is obviously not suitable for calming the mind. If you cannot find an oasis, then you must create one yourself. Your own four walls are usually sufficient for this purpose.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Thomas, by what you just said (specifically the bottom paragraph), do you believe in free will?

[Thomas Knierim]

I believe in free consciousness. :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

:D Does will/choice add into that free consciousness, or are we simply driven by chemical presses?

[Thomas Knierim]

I am not sure what this question has to do with Western society and its influences. If you want to discuss free will, why not opening a new thread?

What concerns the original question, I don't think that Western society creates an obstacle to studying Buddhism or practising Eastern methods, such as meditation, Yoga, etc. Although these traditions are not part of the European/American culture, they can be found in the West. However, environment and society are probably not as supportive as in Asia. This means, Eastern traditions lead a quite insular existence in the West and are not supported by mainstream society. It will be interesting to see whether this will change in the future.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

I agree. But, the reason I asked if you believe in free will is because of what you said, "The thing is: you need to realise that your state of mind is not dependent upon these external circumstances. It is up to you to take in those influences or to reject them. The difficulty is to get to the point where this strength can be realised. This is not an easy task. A boisterous, noisy, and obnoxious environment is obviously not suitable for calming the mind. If you cannot find an oasis, then you must create one yourself. Your own four walls are usually sufficient for this purpose." But, a topic specifically devoted to free will, to me, wouldn't really suit me. Now, if someone like Kether or Truthseeker were to make a topic about it. But, honestly, I don't tend to be very good at introductory and/or formal posts; I am more of a discusser. But, if such a topic is made, I'll almost definitely post in it. :)

[Smurf]

What concerns the original question, I don't think that Western society creates an obstacle to studying Buddhism or practising Eastern methods, such as meditation, Yoga, etc. Although these traditions are not part of the European/American culture, they can be found in the West. However, environment and society are probably not as supportive as in Asia. This means, Eastern traditions lead a quite insular existence in the West and are not supported by mainstream society. It will be interesting to see whether this will change in the future.


Yes there hasn't really been much acceptence...
But I would say that they do create a boundary, although not really a brick wall as such, but more of a hurdle to jump over. The western society does not support this and reflects it in its education and basic social practises. This does create a barrier and upholds the "mysterious East" mindset. Such a dramatic change would take decades.

[UtopianGrade]

I think my previous comment was far to general. My main quarrle is not advertising (I can easily say No) it's the attitude people have towards one another. I would not like to use the word hostile, but.... :rolleyes:


Maybe its just the small comunity where I live.

[scameter]

Such an attitude is everywhere I have been too my friend. I fear it is simply inherent in people; that to be un-hostile and docile, as well as compassion, is choiceful, whereas the hostile attitude is inherent and fundamental.

[CSwriter1]

I am still not clear about what is the perceived fault of the West? I very much appreciate Thomas's greater world view. I do not have a sense of being bombarded by advertisements, because I live in a rather small city, surrounded by small towns where advertizing is pretty limited to a business sign and maybe newpaper and television adds. Like my downtown is nothing like Los Vegas nor the places of which Thomas speaks, and I can walk through the streets and malls without someone approaching me to sell me goods. I can also avoid the business district and malls.

This is the second time, I have read a thread and been very thankful for where I live.

However, for the strength of which Thomas speaks, I have such a strong sense of being empty when I was young, as though everything desirable, or undesirable, were external. I lusted to be filled up and searched for that which make me happy. This outward looking of course opened me to stimulaus. Around 50 I experienced a big change. I felt full and confident that what is really important is inside me. Oh, there is lots of knowledge for me to gain, but I don't have to it. Adding to my knowledge is a pleasure, not a need. I am discriminating and avoid the stimulus of hawkers and advertizers.

When advertizers or sales people are pushy with me, such as the ads that pop up on the Internet, I am fast to be rid of them, and occasional let them know their aggression only assures I will not do business with them. I never, try to get something for nothing, because that is inviting trouble. We can make personal rules and public laws that reduce the opportunities for others to intrude in our lives. We can live in quieter places too.

The Amish have incorperated avoiding distractions from their Godly way of life, into all their social agreements. Communally they own large tracts of land, and can avoid the distractions of the more complex modern world.

[UtopianGrade]

Perhaps I've been to hasty to blame others, After all im the one trying to harbour compassion and they are just living their lives the way they see fit.

[Michael]

The issues are not societary but personal. I found this meditation a great help in getting a clear focus on the essential considerations. I hope it may be of some benefit.

Markus Aurelius. Meditations. Book 12. 3rd Meditation


3. Your three components: body, breath, mind. Two are yours in trust; to the third alone you have clear title.

If you can cut yourself – your mind - free of what other people do and say, of what you’ve said or done, of the things that you’re afraid will happen, the impositions of the body that contains you and the breath within, and what the whirling chaos sweeps in from outside, so that the mind is freed from fate, brought to clarity, and lives life on its own recognizance – doing what’s right, accepting what happens, and speaking the truth –

If you can cut yourself free of the impressions that cling to the mind, free of the future and the past – can make yourself, as Empedocles says, “a sphere rejoicing in its perfect stillness,” and concentrate on living what can be lived (which means the present)…then you can spend the time you have left in tranquillity. And in kindness. And at peace with the spirit within you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like the brilliant Indian elephant carver, he cuts away everything that is not an elephant.

Namaste

[mswinwood]

Looking at the loud, consistent, brassy and attention-getting distractions of the "western world" and rejecting them takes a tremendous amount of energy and time, and one finds him/herself in a continuous struggle . . . better is it to (rather than reject), to accept, open wider and put one's arms around . . . in bringing in, one is able disarm, in fact it happens naturally, rather than giving the empowerment that pushing away produces.

[Orlando]

turn off your tv and radio

[Orlando]

then where are all the distractions comming from?

[Orlando]

when you act on the construction you greatly expand the experience.
if you just ignore it it will cease on its own and there will be peace and quiet.

just think of all the things you could have accomplished while you were wasting your time and effort trying to influence something over which you had no influence.

[Orlando]

we shall see

[oboe2damax]

Yes there hasn't really been much acceptence...
But I would say that they do create a boundary, although not really a brick wall as such, but more of a hurdle to jump over. The western society does not support this and reflects it in its education and basic social practises. This does create a barrier and upholds the "mysterious East" mindset. Such a dramatic change would take decades

His Holiness, the Dalai Lama is actually actively engaged with this challanging but vital process of integrating Buddhist ideas and methodology into Western society. He is using the medium of science to do so. There are some Western Psychotherapists who are starting to see that Buddhism fits very well into therapy, seeing that that is in a way, what it is. Mark Epstein M.D. has great books about how he links psychotherapy with buddhism. Check out: Thoughts without a Thinker, and Open to Desire.

If you want to be on top of the conversations between the Dalai Lama and Western scientists, google the Mind and Life intitute, and check out the publications.

It is encouraging to see some part of western society that is invested in healing itself.

[______]

It is encouraging to see some part of western society that is invested in healing itself.
I think it may just be a matter of time. :)

[namtso]

It is encouraging to see some part of western society that is invested in healing itself.
I think it may just be a matter of time.

I look forward to it and hope our next generation of world leaders make it happen. There's a very good Robert Thurman recording on CD of a talk he gave on October 26, 2001 after the 9/11 attacks. The talk is titled Making Peace in a Violent World. He repeats some Dalai Lama quotes in that talk that address the changing state of world politics. Robert Thurman has a great sense of humor too and I always enjoy hearing him speak. The CDs are for sale on the Arizona Friends of Tibet site. The other two Robert Thurman CDs for sale there, Infinite Life and The Jewel Tree of Tibet, are great too.

Arizona Friends of Tibet site - http://www.afot.org/giftshop.htm#thurman

Making Peace in a Violent World

Infinite Life

The Jewel Tree of Tibet



There's also some Dalai Lama DVDs on the same web page. They are a little expensive but I'm guessing that's the only place where you can find them.

[______]

look forward to it and hope our next generation of world leaders make it happen.
Next generation? I doubt it will be that soon. Perhaps in the next millenia? Time is of no consequence.
There's also some Dalai Lama DVDs on the same web page. They are a little expensive but I'm guessing that's the only place where you can find them.
Is namtso a salesman at heart? :D :lol:

[namtso]

Next generation? I doubt it will be that soon. Perhaps in the next millenia? Time is of no consequence.
Yeah you are probably right, progress is slow, isn't it. In a way I hope that's right and in a way I don't. It all comes back to the "to sleep perchance to dream, ay there's the rub." To have only one chance to get it right and botch it, like Hamlet's fear, would I then risk wandering around various hells if I don't properly "make my peace"? Alternately, to continue to be re-born, risk having poor or unproductive re-births and make painfully slow progress towards final liberation? Of course if I had a choice, I'd choose the second!


Is namtso a salesman at heart?
You would think so by how I push certain stuff, huh. Truth is I'm kinda lazy. Listening to CDs or watching DVDs is easier and I seem to absorb the concepts a little quicker. Recordings of talks by Robina Courtin are also pretty good for English Language. She explains things very clearly and in plain language so it's fairly easy to get what she's talking about. That whole Lamrim.com site is actually very good. I also just got an email from a guy at the Shravasti Abbey who told me about this site for Thubten Chodron. There's quite a few recordings of her talks available for free on her site - http://thubtenchodron.org.


One thing that does bother me more than a little is to see what happens to a country that turns primarily Buddhist. Tibet is one of the most well known instances and we saw what happened to that country. It also happened to Mongolia and even to India. When a group of people really starts to live the Buddhist ideal, they also seem to become vulnerable to takeover. I'm not sure about Vietnam, I don't know what percentage were Buddhist during the Vietnam War. If someone on TBV knows that, I'd be interesting in knowing it myself. And I think Japanese Samurai followed a certain form of Buddhism that closely resembled Zen, so the pattern doesn't hold true all the time I guess.

[______]

One thing that does bother me more than a little is to see what happens to a country that turns primarily Buddhist. Tibet is one of the most well known instances and we saw what happened to that country. It also happened to Mongolia and even to India. When a group of people really starts to live the Buddhist ideal, they also seem to become vulnerable to takeover
Hmmm.... <_< But if the whole world were to follow--not necessarily Buddhism--a certain compassionate path........