Caodaiism

[scameter]

I have recently been reading about a religion that I discovered on wikipedia, called Caodaiism. It is quite an amazing philosophy. Here, I shall copy and paste from wikipedia to describe the religion, and encourage discussion of it furthermore :) :

Cao Dai (Cao Ðài) is a relatively new, syncretist, monotheistic religion, officially established in Tây Ninh, southern Vietnam, in 1926. Ðạo Cao Ðài is the religion's shortened name, the full name is Ðại Ðạo Tam Kỳ Phổ Ðộ (Great Religion [of The] Third Period [of] Revelation [and] Salvation).

The term Cao Ðài literally means "high place." Figuratively, it means that highest place where God reigns. It is also the abbreviated name for God, the creator of the universe, whose full title is Cao Ðài Tiên Ông Ðại Bồ Tát Ma-ha-tát.

Caodaiists credit God as the religion's founder. They believe the teachings, symbolism and organization were communicated directly from Ðức (means Venerable) Cao Ðài. Even the construction of the Tây Ninh Holy See is claimed to have had divine guidance.

Cao Ðài's first disciples Ngô Vãn Chiêu, Cao Quỳnh Cý, Phạm Công Tắc, and Cao Hoài Sang claimed to have received direct communications from God, who gave them explicit instructions for establishing a new religion that would commence the Third Era of Religious Amnesty.

Adherents engage in ethical practices such as prayer, veneration of ancestors, nonviolence, and vegetarianism with the minimum goal of rejoining God the Father in Heaven and the ultimate goal of freedom from the cycle of birth and death.

Estimates of the number of Cao Ðài adherents in Vietnam vary, but most sources give two to three million. Some estimates are as high as eight million adherents in Vietnam. An additional 30,000 (primarily ethnic Vietnamese) in the United States, Europe, and Australia.

Origin of God and the Universe
Before God existed, there was the Tao -- that nameless, formless, unchanging, eternal source referenced in the Tao Te Ching. At some point, a Big Bang occurred, out of which God was born. The universe could not yet be formed, for God controlled Yang. Therefore, He shed a part of himself and created the Goddess, master of Yin. In the presence of Yin and Yang, the universe materialized. The Goddess is, literally, the mother of the myriad of things in the Universe. Thus, Caodaiists not only worship God, the father, but also the Goddess, literally referred to as the Mother Buddha. Note that the Goddess, or Mother Buddha, is male, as are all Buddhas. The Goddess is master over Yin but is not a part of Yin, which is female.

There are 36 levels of heaven and 72 planets harboring intelligent life, with number one being the closest to heaven and 72 nearest to hell. Earth is number 68. It is said that even the lowest citizen on planet 67 would not trade place with a king on 68 and so forth.

Scriptures
The Tây Ninh Holy See recognizes three main scriptures:

1. Thánh Ngôn Hiệp Tuyển
2. Pháp Chánh Truyền (The Religious Constitution of Caodaiism)
3. Kinh Thiên Ðạo Và Thế Ðạo
Note: Scriptures from other sects will be listed later.

Symbolism
God is symbolized by the Divine Eye, specifically the left eye because Yang is the left side and God is the master of Yang.

The Three Teachings
In the order of most to least difficult, the Three Teachings within Caodaiism are:

The Teachings of Buddhas
The Teachings of Sages
The Teachings of Saints.
The Three Teachings represent levels of spiritual attainment, with Buddha as the highest. Caodaiism's various stages of spiritual development from human on up are: Thần (no translation yet) , Thánh (Saint), Tiên (Sage), and Phật (Buddha).

Thần, Saints and Sages may have, accordingly, long and extremely long life in the realms of heaven, but only Buddhas are free from the cycle of birth and death.

The Three Periods of Revelation and Salvation
First Period:
1. The Teachings of Buddhas - Dipankara Buddha
2. The Teachings of Sages -
3. The Teachings of Saints -
Second Period:
1. The Teachings of Buddhas - Shakyamuni Buddha
2. The Teachings of Sages - Lao Zi
3. The Teachings of Saints - Confucius and Jesus
Third Period:
God is at the helm.
Note: Jesus is regarded as a Buddha and true son of God, shed directly from God.

Religious Constitution and Organization
Americans may be surprised to find that they are more familiar with Caodaiism's organizational structure than they realize. Caodaiism's governing body consists of three branches that are functionally equivalent to the U.S.'s legislative, executive and judicial branches.

The head of the Executive Branch is called "Giáo Tông," which means leader or head of a philosophical or religious organization. Similarities between the hierarchy of Caodaiism's dignitaries and those of the Roman Catholic Church have led translators to borrow terminologies such as pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, etc. In practice, Caodaiism has more ranks and titles of which there are no official English translation as of yet. The actual Vietnamese term for Pope, as in the Catholic Pope, is "Giáo Hoàng."

Caodaiism stresses equality among men and women. However, the fact that ordained women may attain ranks only up to cardinal but not Pope may be misconstrued as unfair bias. The reason was explained by God when He established the church's hierarchical order. Yang represents male and Yin corresponds to female. Yin cannot rule over Yang or else chaos would occur.

Schism
Caodaiism has also suffered from schisms like other religions. Some of the Cao Ðài sects that have broken away from the Tây Ninh Holy See are Chiếu Minh, Bến Tre and Ðà Nẵng.

Chiếu Minh - founded by Ngô Vãn Chiêu. Mr. Chiêu refused his appointment as Caodaiism's first Pope and was neither involved in the religion's official establishment in 1926 nor the Tay Ninh Holy See. He accepted another entity as Ðức Cao Ðài and the Chiếu Minh sect of Caodaiism was formed.

Saints
Although various sects of Caodaiism claim to have received messages from numerous spiritual entities, the Tây Ninh Holy See acknowledges significantly fewer. Inside the Holy See is a painting depicting the Three Saints [1] signing a covenant between God and mankind. From left to right, they are: Sun Yat Sen, Victor Hugo and Nguyễn Bỉnh Khiêm.

Sorry for the incredibly long post. :P For a full version of the article, with the letters that were removed here still in their place, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cao_Dai. I hope this religion is of interest, I would very much so love to discuss it. :)

[TruthSeeker]

Wow! That's so mixed and versatile! :D :lol:

[TruthSeeker]

You know that ""Divine" Eye" is also known as a symbol of the most evil cult in the planet, right? <_<

Victor Hugo a saint! LOL! So random! :lol: :rofl:

Hahaha! People... :goodlaugh: :rofl:

[locomotive]

this sickens me. :knockout:

[Smurf]

^I agree Locomotive

What makes you think it is seperate from the other monotheistic, dogmatic religions Scam?

Adherents engage in ethical practices such as prayer, veneration of ancestors, nonviolence, and vegetarianism with the minimum goal of rejoining God the Father in Heaven and the ultimate goal of freedom from the cycle of birth and death.


how is vegetarianism going to increase your chances of meeting the "god"?

claimed to have received direct communications from God

how many times have I heard that before?

Americans may be surprised to find that they are more familiar with Caodaiism's organizational structure than they realize. Caodaiism's governing body consists of three branches that are functionally equivalent to the U.S.'s legislative, executive and judicial branches.


And this is good???

There are 36 levels of heaven and 72 planets harboring intelligent life, with number one being the closest to heaven and 72 nearest to hell. Earth is number 68. It is said that even the lowest citizen on planet 67 would not trade place with a king on 68 and so forth.


WTF???

It is just another sad attempt at conjoining the world religions and spiritual beliefs

[TruthSeeker]

Americans may be surprised to find that they are more familiar with Caodaiism's organizational structure than they realize. Caodaiism's governing body consists of three branches that are functionally equivalent to the U.S.'s legislative, executive and judicial branches.
Yes... the so called "Divine eye"... :rolleyes:

WTF???
Some people also call themselves "Buddhists" and believe in the same kind of thing. Go figure...

It is just another sad attempt at conjoining the world religions and spiritual beliefs
The world doesn't need more religions...

[Smurf]

Yes... the so called "Divine eye"...

:lol: yes!

The world doesn't need more religions...

"What the world needs now,
Is love, sweet love...
No not just for some,
But for everyone."

-Burt Bacharach

:D
Man that sounded like I am a loving hippy now?

[TruthSeeker]

"What the world needs now,
Is love, sweet love...
No not just for some,
But for everyone."

-Burt Bacharach

:D
Man that sounded like I am a loving hippy now?
I remember a really nice movie with that song... :D :P :rofl:

[scameter]

Hmm...this isn't quite the reception I was hoping for. But, I'll reply, of course.

Wow! That's so mixed and versatile!

That's why I like it.

You know that ""Divine" Eye" is also known as a symbol of the most evil cult in the planet, right?

That is the *Evil* Eye, not the Divine Eye.

Victor Hugo a saint! LOL! So random!

Hahaha! People...

I was curious about that too, but why is he any less capable of being a saint than any of the saints of the Christian religion?

this sickens me.

This sickens me too. Or, did you mean something else, besides the intolerance?

What makes you think it is seperate from the other monotheistic, dogmatic religions Scam?

Mainly because it is a seperate religion. But, I think it is quite similar to many other religions smurf, and even if it is dogmatic, I was examining it from a philosophical and theological/theosophical point of view, not a political one.

how is vegetarianism going to increase your chances of meeting the "god"?

I'm not sure of everything about this religion. I just discovered it last night, forgive me if I don't know everything about it.

how many times have I heard that before?

Again, that could be dogma, but that is people. I was looking at it from a more philosophical/theosophical point of view, not a political one.

And this is good???

I'm not looking at it's politics. But, it never said it was good. It is simply as it is. And, our system of government is capitalist-oriented, but not every democratic republic federal government is capitalist.

WTF???

It is just another sad attempt at conjoining the world religions and spiritual beliefs

I don't think it's sad. I think what it said is quite possible. Again, it could be dogma, but if interpreted metaphorically, it sounds pretty true. For instance, I have read many fantasy books, many of which being set in harsh worlds, but none are, nor could they ever be, as bad as this world.

Some people also call themselves "Buddhists" and believe in the same kind of thing. Go figure...

Many also claim to have humanity, yet from the common definition of the word, they are lying.

The world doesn't need more religions...

Doesn't need more people either, yet they keep coming and in more amounts. At least religions has some good to them, especially if actually thought about, and in a theosophical and/or philosophical manner.

"What the world needs now,
Is love, sweet love...
No not just for some,
But for everyone."

Love from people? People are incapable of having compassion, much less love, unless it benefits them personally, and then it is not compassion or love. Sympathy perhaps, but not love or compassion.

[schrodinger]

Haven’t religions lost enough credibility without someone inventing a new one, which further erodes credibility in ALL religion?
It does sicken me that they have dragged Buddhism into their nest, and corrupted it. Only a very simple mind would believe in any of this crap. I suspect if you look more closely, you will find an ulterior purpose for this religion, and I further suspect it will be; Money! Just as in the case of Scientology, another fairy tale load of rubbish.

:sick:

[TruthSeeker]

That's why I like it.
I like mixed and versatile too! But I also like logical! :o

That is the *Evil* Eye, not the Divine Eye.
Have you ever seen it or known of the cult!? Look at american money. It's there! :o

"Illuminati
Today some conspiracy debunkers link the symbol with conspiracy organizations, especially Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati. This is possibly the only context in which the Eye of Providence is shown actually embedded in a pyramid. The eye is meant to be the eye of Lucifer, as he is sometimes referenced as an all seeing eye in some biblical passages[citation needed]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

You may also see... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four
...for related info...

I was curious about that too, but why is he any less capable of being a saint than any of the saints of the Christian religion?
He isn't less capable at all! He's brilliant! But it's kinda random... :D

Doesn't need more people either, yet they keep coming and in more amounts. At least religions has some good to them, especially if actually thought about, and in a theosophical and/or philosophical manner.
You are sounding bitter, scam. Not all people are bad. Do you think I am bad? People has some good in them. You should start thinking about the nature of "evil"...

Love from people? People are incapable of having compassion, much less love, unless it benefits them personally, and then it is not compassion or love. Sympathy perhaps, but not love or compassion.
Again, not true. Maybe in america you don't see many compassionate people, but that's cause you live in america. It all has to do with parenting. Nice parenting creates compassionate people... <_<

[Smurf]

Love from people? People are incapable of having compassion, much less love, unless it benefits them personally, and then it is not compassion or love. Sympathy perhaps, but not love or compassion.

Incapable? I don't think we are incapable, I have compassion? I have love? What about the Dalai Lama? I think you are making a General Assertion...




Actually that was pretty hypocritical of me :D don't worry Scam

[TruthSeeker]

Haven’t religions lost enough credibility without someone inventing a new one, which further erodes credibility in ALL religion?
It does sicken me that they have dragged Buddhism into their nest, and corrupted it. Only a very simple mind would believe in any of this crap. I suspect if you look more closely, you will find an ulterior purpose for this religion, and I further suspect it will be; Money! Just as in the case of Scientology, another fairy tale load of rubbish.
Scientology is sick. Sad that many celebrities like it... :(

[Smurf]

It is sick Truthseeker, that someone can actually believe that? Sort of a joke of a religion really ...

[scameter]

I like mixed and versatile too! But I also like logical!

You mean easily conquerable, without taking much interpretation or thought.

He isn't less capable at all! He's brilliant! But it's kinda random...

Life is random.

You are sounding bitter, scam. Not all people are bad. Do you think I am bad? People has some good in them. You should start thinking about the nature of "evil"...

I have thought much about the nature of evil. And no, not all people are bad, but all people have the capacity for it, and much more of a capacity for it than they do good. I don't think you're entirely bad, but you're capable of it. As am I.

Again, not true. Maybe in america you don't see many compassionate people, but that's cause you live in america. It all has to do with parenting. Nice parenting creates compassionate people...

It takes a nice person to be a good parent, not the other way around.

Incapable? I don't think we are incapable, I have compassion? I have love? What about the Dalai Lama? I think you are making a General Assertion...

I think we are capable of love and compassion, yet usually, it manifests as sympathy. We are incapable, however, of entirely selfless love.

Scientology is sick. Sad that many celebrities like it...

Gets them popularity. It's like the rich people and rich companies contributing to charities, because it is a good tax write-off.

[Smurf]

I think we are capable of love and compassion, yet usually, it manifests as sympathy. We are incapable, however, of entirely selfless love.


Interesting concept, But I disagree; I think that we are not completely uncapable of being compassionate or Loving selflessy, perhaps in the USA Scam... But from what I have seen elsewhere there is a chance.

I challenge you to go to the Dalai Lama and say to his face that he is not selflessy compasionate or loving

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, Scientology is pretty sick. Here's a bit about it:

"Silent birth and infant care
Main article: Silent birth
Hubbard stated that the delivery room should be as silent as possible during birth. This stems from his belief that birth is a trauma that may induce engrams into the baby. Hubbard asserted that words in particular should be avoided because he stated that any words used during birth might be reassociated by an adult, later on in life, with their earlier traumatic birth experience. Hubbard also wrote that the mother should use "as little anaesthetic as possible". According to Hubbard, babies should not be bathed after birth, but should be wrapped up tightly and left alone for a day or so. Hubbard also wrote that breastfeeding should be avoided (in contravention of common medical advice, which stresses its importance for the health of both the mother and the child.[11]) As an alternative, Hubbard offered a concoction which he called the "Barley Formula", made from barley water, homogenized milk, and corn syrup or honey.[12] However, this formula is potentially unsafe; honey can cause infant botulism when given to infants under twelve months of age.[13][14]

Hubbard was not a medical doctor, nor a pediatrician, nor a trained nutritionist. He received no college training in neo-natal care, or infant care. His claims regarding the care of babies and infants are disputed by many doctors and other professionals. Patricia Devine, MD, a maternal-fetal medicine specialist who directs the Labor and Delivery Unit at Columbia University Medical Center, said, "There's absolutely no scientific evidence that taking [noise] away at the time of delivery will have any effect on outcome for the baby or mother."[15]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

Tom Cruise actually did those things... :o
Very disappointing...

[scameter]

I surely would smurf. You may have seen compassion, something I never said we are incapable of, but it cannot be entirely selfless, for a myriad of reasons, such as that it gives the individual pleasure, they do it for a particular reason usually out of belief in good and evil, or whatever else, which is sympathetic, not selfless love. Selfless love is what Jesus did when he died for us, which is why it is both impossible and truthful, and godly.

[schrodinger]

After a bit more thinking, I still suspect there is an ulterior purpose for this “religion”, but I no longer think it is money. If it were founded in 1926, that would be at a time when the Vietnamese resistance to French colonialism was starting to take hold. The French would be suspicious of any gatherings, even those of a religious nature. What better way to gather than have a religion with Victor Hugo as a Saint! The French might just allow such a practice to go on, not realizing it was a ‘cover’ for a resistance movement! Of course, this is all speculation, but there might be a very interesting story here for anyone who is intrepid enough to dig it out. As to why the ‘religion’ continues to this day, I can only wonder. <_<

[locomotive]

It doesn't bother me really. It seems that this religion is another fusion religion that people really like because it shows similarities between great religions and therefore must be even more real. Most of the followers have no clue about how the guidelines actually work (in reality) because they didn't realize it themselfs. The only thing that they probable realized is that the philosophies make sense and that the similarities must combine into something more acurate, true, real etc etc. Meanwhile they aren't able to integrate those philosophies into their thinking and instead they thrive to live up to such integration and every little indication of a possibility of proof fills them with convidence joy and a bit of pride.
The appeal of such religions as scientology really is because it fits their world and that is the main cause why the higher truths of religions are not understood. I think hehe

hmm this was already said. oh well.

[TruthSeeker]

I surely would smurf. You may have seen compassion, something I never said we are incapable of, but it cannot be entirely selfless, for a myriad of reasons, such as that it gives the individual pleasure, they do it for a particular reason usually out of belief in good and evil, or whatever else, which is sympathetic, not selfless love. Selfless love is what Jesus did when he died for us, which is why it is both impossible and truthful, and godly.

How do you know he didn't do for individual pleasure?

[scameter]

Getting one's skin ripped off almost entirely by Romans, getting this elected to be done by one's own people, getting nailed to a cross with cheering Jews and Romans around, seeing your family cry at your feet, knowing that you have the power to stop it but you do not, and dying with your own father's gaze away from you; sounds quite pleasurable. He did what he did out of love. Purely.

[sunny]

Yah..I totally agree that people can never give love which doesnt benifit them..Parents love children tht they knows tht children willt ake care of them in their old age n vice versa..

And how many of u never said a lie????We all will do n every one have god n devil inside them..They just come out according ti the situation..

For example if u see a old lady not ablee to cross the road u will help her there comes god out..
N if u see a young lady whose just above perfect u get all sort of ideas...There comes devil out..

So it depends upon the person which he cn resist and which he can't

[TruthSeeker]

Getting one's skin ripped off almost entirely by Romans, getting this elected to be done by one's own people, getting nailed to a cross with cheering Jews and Romans around, seeing your family cry at your feet, knowing that you have the power to stop it but you do not, and dying with your own father's gaze away from you; sounds quite pleasurable. He did what he did out of love. Purely.
And what about someone who gives food to someon poor? Are they doing that purely out of love or for personal pleasure?

[TruthSeeker]

Yah..I totally agree that people can never give love which doesnt benifit them..Parents love children tht they knows tht children willt ake care of them in their old age n vice versa..
Hey, I don't! Why would I expect my own children to take care of me!? That's ridiculous! They are my children. I take care of them till the end. I rather become rich and take care of myself, thank you.

And how many of u never said a lie????We all will do n every one have god n devil inside them..They just come out according ti the situation..
Well, that's ridiculous. People don't just lie randomly. And how can you call that "evil"!? Geezz... :rolleyes:

People has such a screwed up notion of good and evil... it's not even funny...

For example if u see a old lady not ablee to cross the road u will help her there comes god out..
N if u see a young lady whose just above perfect u get all sort of ideas...There comes devil out..

So it depends upon the person which he cn resist and which he can't
That's a very screwed up perception, which unfortunately, a lot of people have.
There's no devil out ther to get you. That's schizophrenia. <_<

[locomotive]

And what about someone who gives food to someon poor? Are they doing that purely out of love or for personal pleasure?

I they didn't do what they wanted they would be unsatisfied so yes.

[TruthSeeker]

What if they don't want to do it and do it anyways?

[scameter]

And what about someone who gives food to someon poor? Are they doing that purely out of love or for personal pleasure?

Compassion and sympathy, but that doesn't negate the fact that they wouldn't do it if it didn't make them feel good, at least somewhat, and such a feeling is inevitable.

People has such a screwed up notion of good and evil... it's not even funny...

Good and evil is mostly based on fear.

That's a very screwed up perception, which unfortunately, a lot of people have.
There's no devil out ther to get you. That's schizophrenia.

How can you know? I think such a perception as is his somewhat wrong, because I think people are evil by their own choice, but I don't negate the possibility of a devil affecting us. To do so would be limited.

[Kether]

Compassion and sympathy, but that doesn't negate the fact that they wouldn't do it if it didn't make them feel good, at least somewhat, and such a feeling is inevitable.
So what if people do good things in order to feel satisfied in some way? It doesn't negate the worth of their actions. People generally do commit 'good' actions in order to feel satisfied with themselves; because they want to. But does this stop them being good people? No.

[TruthSeeker]

Compassion and sympathy, but that doesn't negate the fact that they wouldn't do it if it didn't make them feel good, at least somewhat, and such a feeling is inevitable.
Again, what if Jesus did what he did to feel good?

Good and evil is mostly based on fear.
True. But it's not like we talk about it with any absolute measure...

How can you know? I think such a perception as is his somewhat wrong, because I think people are evil by their own choice, but I don't negate the possibility of a devil affecting us. To do so would be limited.
I don't negate it either! But that person was absolutely positive about it, which can affect his/her life tremendously and in a very negative way! (and those around as well)...

[TruthSeeker]

So what if people do good things in order to feel satisfied in some way? It doesn't negate the worth of their actions. People generally do commit 'good' actions in order to feel satisfied with themselves; because they want to. But does this stop them being good people? No.
So you do good things just because you want to feel good? And what about everyone else?

I don't. And I don't tell people what I do either.And I don't see why people would be incapable of being truly selfless. What about that girl that died cruched by a tank when she was protesting the war of Iraq? That wasn't selfless?

[Kether]

It certainly was selfless. What I meant was that all actions could be considered selfish only in the sense that people want to do them, and hence receive some kind of moral gratification for them. But I don't think that it is helpful to think of this as selfishness, and it certainly doesn't make people any less 'good'.

[locomotive]

"What if they don't want to do it and do it anyways? "

then they also would feel bad about it. moral of the story : creatures do things because they wanted it and since it is what they want it is what gives them pleasure or possibly it won't give them any feelings.

edit: selflessness is beeing in the moment meaning beeing practical and because you are practical you are thinking only about the world, the situation etc and not the self which is merely a resonance with the past.

[Smurf]

I surely would smurf. You may have seen compassion, something I never said we are incapable of, but it cannot be entirely selfless, for a myriad of reasons, such as that it gives the individual pleasure, they do it for a particular reason usually out of belief in good and evil, or whatever else, which is sympathetic, not selfless love. Selfless love is what Jesus did when he died for us, which is why it is both impossible and truthful, and godly.

I still disagree with you Scam, I have seen selfless love, such as the love of a family such love that it without lust for reward just love, a sort of mutually known love...

Or the love of a Father who watches his children crossing the road in front of him as they get off the bus, He checks the road constantly to make sure

What type of love is that Scam? You call yourself a Christian yet you have no hope in the Human Race, Could you get down from your Ivory tower and look at the world around you for once?

[scameter]

So what if people do good things in order to feel satisfied in some way? It doesn't negate the worth of their actions. People generally do commit 'good' actions in order to feel satisfied with themselves; because they want to. But does this stop them being good people? No.

Of course it doesn't stop them from being good, because it satisfies them. Why would it stop them? Just as to those to whom evil makes them feel good, they do it. To be good, and to live for good, is to make an entire, whole choice for this, not simply to occasionally do it because you think it is the right thing to do. You must trust in goodness it's self, not in our actions of good.

Again, what if Jesus did what he did to feel good?

Again, he didn't. What part of what he did could have possibly made him feel good?

But that person was absolutely positive about it, which can affect his/her life tremendously and in a very negative way! (and those around as well)...

I agree. That is as limited as negating the possibility of an affective devil entirely.

What about that girl that died cruched by a tank when she was protesting the war of Iraq? That wasn't selfless?

Why was she doing it? Was she alone when she did it? Did she know the tank was going to crunch her?

But I don't think that it is helpful to think of this as selfishness, and it certainly doesn't make people any less 'good'.

What about people who do evil because it makes them feel good? Does this make them evil?

I have seen selfless love, such as the love of a family such love that it without lust for reward just love, a sort of mutually known love...

Unless they knew of a bad-feeling consequence, and felt no pleasure from doing it, it isn't selfless. I'm not saying love or compassion doesn't exist, nor that their goodness isn't potent because of it's selfishness, I am simply saying that selfless love is impossible.

You call yourself a Christian

I have never called myself a Christian, nor would I ever do so, because it would be a lie.

you have no hope in the Human Race, Could you get down from your Ivory tower and look at the world around you for once?

I am in no tower, and I do have some hope for humanity. Do you think I say what I do about humanity to be cute, or that it doesn't crush my spirit almost entirely? I have seen how people are, and have heard of it from others, and my conclusions are as I express them.

[TruthSeeker]

You don't seem to be very hopeful, scam... <_<
What is your hope?

[scameter]

I can only have one? :P My main hope is that I will have the opportunity to learn and experience more in life, and that my dad will be able to be helped mentally, and that my mom won't ruin my sister as she has me, and that my step-grandfather will be fine once he and my grandma seperate because of his son, that my grandma will be ok afterwards and with us again, and that I will be alive after my mom dies. Well, those are my main *hopes*. :D

[Smurf]

Unless they knew of a bad-feeling consequence, and felt no pleasure from doing it, it isn't selfless. I'm not saying love or compassion doesn't exist, nor that their goodness isn't potent because of it's selfishness, I am simply saying that selfless love is impossible.


There is a difference between feeling pleasure and wanting to feel pleasure Scam

My main hope is that I will have the opportunity to learn and experience more in life, and that my dad will be able to be helped mentally, and that my mom won't ruin my sister as she has me, and that my step-grandfather will be fine once he and my grandma seperate because of his son, that my grandma will be ok afterwards and with us again, and that I will be alive after my mom dies. Well, those are my main *hopes*.

See that is selfless love Scam!

I am in no tower, and I do have some hope for humanity. Do you think I say what I do about humanity to be cute, or that it doesn't crush my spirit almost entirely? I have seen how people are, and have heard of it from others, and my conclusions are as I express them.

I didn't say that I thought it was cute, it is just that you don't always express much hope for humanity, well that's understandable given the circumstances in this world :D

[scameter]

There is a difference between feeling pleasure and wanting to feel pleasure Scam

I know, which is why I think that goodness is always selfish and that that cannot be avoided, but that one can do good without it being entirely selfish, by doing it for good, not for the subsequent feeling of pleasure afforded by doing such; the truly selfish version, similarly to evil, is in doing it simply for the pleasure, with no real concern for good.

See that is selfless love Scam!

I still feel pleasure from my hopes, and would especially if they were realized; however, I do not feel pleasure in knowing that many will not be realized. Yet I still try to retain the hopes.

I didn't say that I thought it was cute, it is just that you don't always express much hope for humanity, well that's understandable given the circumstances in this world

See?

[lenin32]

How can you believe in such a hopeless thought as this scameter. How can you say that all goodness is selfish. Are you saying that it is impossible to do something good without selfish purpose.

[SIZE=1]I think that goodness is always selfish and that that cannot be avoided

[lenin32]

I think that goodness is always selfish and that that cannot be avoided

How can you believe in such a hopeless thought as this scameter. How can you say that all goodness is selfish. Are you saying that it is impossible to do something good without selfish purpose.

It seems to me that you are confused as to where you stand on your own opnions at times scameter. This isnt something to be ashamed of, and dont take this as an attack. Just think about it a little.

[scameter]

Of course my views on it aren't concrete, which is why I am discussing them; I wish to show them to others and get their opinions, so as to adapt my views, or to simply affirm their correctness. I actually didn't only say what you quoted: "I think that goodness is always selfish and that that cannot be avoided, but that one can do good without it being entirely selfish, by doing it for good, not for the subsequent feeling of pleasure afforded by doing such; the truly selfish version, similarly to evil, is in doing it simply for the pleasure, with no real concern for good."

[locomotive]

all goodness done is selfish. A father helping his child is selfish because it was he who wanted it. Then again there is no self. Then you could say that everything done good and evil is selfless. But is this true? A selfless act would be one that considers the needs of the environment. Since our environment impacts our lives and a world without much conflict benefits all this would be good. Since we are considering the needs of the environment even if it also benefits us this can be called selfless. A selfish act would then be one where you are not considering the needs of the world in other words the "now". This would be the past whitch has nothing to do with the now and therefore can be in conflict with the now. This would then result in distructive behaviour to oneself and to others. This can be considered evil.

[TruthSeeker]

Whatever. That's all purely subjective... :duh:

[scameter]

Why is it that you assume there is no self locomotive, and that that would influence selflessness or selfishness?

[locomotive]

I come to my presumptions because of the facts presented by science and because of my experiences and philisophical reasoning.
I found this just know. amazing:
losing ones self (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060430004451.htm)
some more reseaarch (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060211/bob9.asp)

"and that that would influence selflessness or selfishness?"
it influences it in the sense that if you are beeing selfless one can argue that since one is doing it because he wants it he is still a bit selfish however if there is no self and you are just a medium through whitch nature helps itself you are truly beeing selfless.

[scameter]

By an illusion of self.

[locomotive]

I edited it now. what was written before that still stands only I missed this part.
yes by an illusion of self, that is why I said "to some extent".

[scameter]

If we are just a medium for nature to help it's self, that is also perhaps inaccurate. Help it's self would imply that it is willingly pleasing it's desires, desires to which nature does not have, nor does it have consciousness. And even if we are simply that medium, that would not be selfless, for I think you are meaning selfless as in self-less, or nonexistance of self, but by selfless I meant the trait, such as doing something compassionate with no pleasure or satisfaction or thought of one's self.

[locomotive]

yeah that is what I meant too.
If we are a part of nature and we are causing developement then nature is developing itself.