On Being Old

[CSwriter1]

I may not return to this discussion group.

Someone continually challenged everything I said, and then was offended with the idea I was saying he is dumb. When we are old, we are amazed by how much we don't know. May be if we lived to be 300 years, and our memories remained good, we would become as smart as we thought we were when we were young. But with my experience so far, we would only be even more aware of how much we do not know. Like the more we know of infinite knowledge, the more we know what we do not know.

I rather communicate with older people who know how much we don't know, than with young people who feel challenged and insulted by what I say. All of you are very smart, but this means the ability to learn, and is not equal to a life time of learning.

I don't mean to challenge or insult anyone. I rather be with people who understand that. I love teaching, and the nice thing about working with little children is they assume they have much to learn. Somewhere in the teen years, individuals start to think they know all they need to know, and they start challenging everything another said, and assume this is what everyone is doing. It is a long time, before they once again, assume they have much to learn.

[scameter]

Well, it's either me, Kether, or smurf. At least I think smurf's a teenager. Well, if it is me, I'm not challenging everything you say; just because I wish to discuss it doesn't mean I'm challenging it or dismissing it. I came here to learn, and for me, the best way to do that is through debate and discussion. I love teaching too; much of the reason that I will often take the opposing side in an argument is to teach the other person to see that view too, so that he/she won't only see the side they have always seen. Of course, I do have much of my own views, which are increasing in number as I learn more, but I still enjoy teaching, and I'll never stop enjoying discussion and debate. :)

[sonrisa]

oh CS I hope you don't leave for good. If you feel you need a break by all means take one, but I hope you come back to TBV from time to time. It does seem that teens think they know it all, maybe I was like that too when I was that age, perhaps it is part & parcel of growing up. But you shouldn't let their attitude get to you, I don't let the kids get to me, they get snarky with me, I give it right back to them. Sam Clemons said something like when he was 14 his old man knew nothing, but when he (Sam) was 21 he was amazed at how much the old man had learned in 7 years. I think it'll be the same with these kidz too. :)

Come back & impart some pearls of wisdom from time to time....

yo Scam- you forgot MidSun & Locomotive

[Kether]

I hope I'm not arrogant...
I've never really engaged in serious debate with you, Cs - which is a shame, because what I have seen of your posts seems to be extremely good. Well, if you want to leave, there's no stopping you - I'm just sorry you were driven away. Like Psyche.

[locomotive]

omg I am watching this show on tv. These guys aged 30+ still live with their parents! hahaaa. Reminds me of those bumps I hung out with.

cswriter there are allot of other forums with old people and such. they are pretty scholary and explain stuff to you even if you didn't ask.

[fu*]

Hey !! Way to go Kiddies !! Another one bites the dust.

Scam....I came here to learn

Came here to learn? .... My ass !! Unless of course you came to learn better to impress other kids with how gosh darn smart you are.

I love teaching too

What CS has done, is to actually spend the time in 'years' (at an actual college), and 'experience' (in an actual life), and then commenced to "teaching".

You young geniuses on the other hand, have decided to skip those steps. Like.... why bother, when that would take actual time, and actual work?

Even your responses to her post, do not address the post. Just another opportunity to express self. Like "thanks for posting ! Here is another opportunity to tell about ME ! ME ! ME !.

Your compassion is underwhelming LOCO...Who do you live with?

Kether..This post is not aimed at you.

Thomas...WTF ? You may have to ban me soon.

fu

[scameter]

Oh no, please don't ban him Thomas. I enjoy hearing what he has to say, it simply brings back into full activity my depression. Please, I welcome your observations fu, and please, by all means, don't try to actually consider me or how I am or my situation; I know that would be fruitless. Just if you would, continue talking about me. It really is entertaining. And I'm sure you'll call me a smart-ass now, again, I look forward to it. :)

[fu*]

by all means, don't try to actually consider me or how I am or my situation;

Tell me what you have cared to learn about me Scam. Tell me what you know, or have tried to find out about 'my' situation.

Tell me that Scam, then I may start to listen to all that you "know".

[scameter]

Why should I try to listen to your situation, when you won't even show it? The reason I show me and what I like is so that people can know about it, and not be unknowledgeable about me and my problems, as you are. But with someone like you who only cares about telling me how wrong and horrible and bad I am, how could I possibly see your situation, or want to?

[Thomas Knierim]

I have no reason to ban fu, because what fu expresses here is basically true.

The fact that members like CSWriter and psyche are driven away, and members like fu, Vicente and others don't post anymore or post little, is regrettable.

The situation we have now is that a group of young people is trying to dominate this board. As you already know, everyone is welcome at thebigview.com, regardless of how old you are and where you come from. But, in order to make this work, everyone needs to be thoughtful and respectful. I will not allow this board to be dominated be anyone.

I am not very pleased with the recent development. If this trend should continue, I will close this board down.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is a philosophy, religion, and science board. If you don't enjoy scholarly debate, please go somewhere else. In particular, you should go somewhere else if...

...if you mainly want to discuss other topics.

...if you don't want to listen to others.

...if you constantly need to prove yourself right.

...if you just want to make yourself look smart.

...if you cannot post a coherent paragraph.

...if you want to post mainly smilies.


Thank you very much!

Thomas

[fu*]

edited out

[locomotive]

I have trouble writing a coherent paragraph..

fu you looked for hidden messages behind my post but there were non.

[Smurf]

Then if we are all children perhaps it is your obligation as an elder, Fu*, with your wisdom to teach us better, how does a child cross the road with no one to help him?

I don't think that we drove those people away but rather their own insecurities as people drove them away. The fact that their arrogance surpasses their wisdom remains yet to be discussed. That they did not remain to perhaps teach us "youngies", which might have helped the current situation.

I believe that if you shut this board down, Thomas, I would probably fall into a depression; although not bad as I would still have Msn and email. I find this place a haven from the mundane life that I live on this tiny island in the south. I ask you all to stop hating and let peace reign once again, think and not act, live and not hurt... let the sun rise again on this wonderful place.

[MidnightSun]

I love fu ,he's wise. Everyone needs to be put in their place so they wont think too high of themselves. Anyway its sad that people are leaving the forum, i will miss them and their posts. Although posts here made me sad, all of it seemed like some teen - adults war.

Teens always think they're right and are furious with their opinions defending? That sounds harsh, although it might be some true in it as well. I hope i dont seem arrogant to anyone. Well i'm young, silly and most of all misunderstood, so i dont post much as I dont know anything and can't tell why people are leaving the forum, whats wrong or whos right here.

[CSwriter1]

I have to come back at least long enough to resolve the problem I created. I am so sorry everyone. The greatest fault may be my own.

It was not a teenager, and I wouldn't say teenagers are trying to dominate the board, but may have more time and interest to be here. In general the old and the young are not overwhelmed with adult responsibilities and can enjoy exploring life together.

More older posters would be more attractive to older people. I am amazed that this site is not more used by older people, because it is such a well done and highly informative site! But in general especially in the US people just do not study philosphy and they are not doing better than the teenagers. In fact the teenagers are doing better than a lot of adults!

We are all quilty of the don't's Thomas listed. I am asking myself, why is that I get so upset by what others sometimes say? I imagine Thomas handles this much better than I do. Perhaps I should stay and develop my ability to cope?

But there is this factor that I don't feel like I belong to the world of the young. There are sayings about this, and about how the old should leave life to the young. Like I stopped going to bars to dance, when I realized everyone in them was much younger than myself. I relate better with older people who know what I am saying before I explain anything, and I wonder, should I be arguing with a younger person? It feels sooo good, when someone knows what I am saying and agrees with my POINT OF VIEW, because s/he has the same POINT OF VIEW. And sometimes it can feel like I am taking a beating when the other has a different POINT OF VIEW, because of an age difference, and jumps on me for saying he is stupid, or for being condesending. It is a sore spot with me. It hurts.

This is a question about boundaries and freedom. Should the old leave the young alone? What of our old fashioned out dated values? Should we keep them to ourselves? This what the hurt is all about, and it didn't start here. It started with our children becoming teenagers and believing they knew better, and many words from younger people at home and on other forms, telling me my values are no good. I need to let them be free, I am calling them stupid, I am condensending. Ouch- I think something terribly wrong began in our schools, and pitted the young against the old. This is not the normal gap of young and old, but is a value gap.

[Kether]

I would personally welcome as many older people as possible on this board, for the simple fact that they know more, both factually and in terms of life experience. I am glad if people like reading my posts and value what I have to say, but I actually know very, very little - which means that I am prone to reason from false premises. I try to research the factual information on which I base my opinions, but I am not an expert at anything, and I have barely lived life at all.

[fu*]

the problem I created

I didn't see it as a 'problem you created'. I saw it as a genuine post.

because it is such a well done and highly informative site!

It is, isn't it? Seems very little regard for "self", and that is a breath of fresh air every day.

We are all guilty of the don't's, Thomas listed.

Yup.

I am asking myself, why is that I get so upset by what others sometimes say?

That is such a wonderful question. "I"?.....Asking.... "self"? Are there two of you?

Everytime I cringe from words, I try to explore "what made me do that"?, and then "what exactly IS doing that"? So far it has always been 'self'. This thing, protecting this thing, made up of thoughts/memories. So my "self" is protective...of thoughts...of memories?.....Wow. Protecting thought..what an ass I am.

Perhaps I should stay and develop my ability to cope?

Perhaps you should stay. I like what I have seen in that regard from SOL,

Even on days we think were wasted, we never truly know what we may have said, done, or expressed through our actions that may have landed profoundly in the path of another.....In that regard, our own journey branches off into that of another and so on, and so on, and so on. It interconnects us all.


fu

[fu*]

Then if we are all children perhaps it is your obligation as an elder, Fu*, with your wisdom to teach us better, how does a child cross the road with no one to help him?


Try pouring something into a cup that is allready full.

[Thomas Knierim]

CSWriter: I have to come back at least long enough to resolve the problem I created.

Welcome back! You haven't created any problems, though.

CSWriter: I am amazed that this site is not more used by older people....

So am I. Especially since the design of this website is so conservative (all black and white, it hasn't changed in 5 years, no flash movies, no blinking stuff, no AJAX), and the topics are not exactly what you see on MTV. :lol:

Kether: I am glad if people like reading my posts and value what I have to say, but I actually know very, very little - which means that I am prone to reason from false premises.

Knowledge is not all that important. These days we have computers and the Internet, which are basically knowledge machines, and they can be used to amplify your knowledge ("bicycle for the mind", Steve Jobbs). What has become more important (or maybe was more important all the time) is integrity, attitude, wisdom, and strategy. In that order.

You have the great advantage of a self-testing attitude. That is more important than knowledge. You also seem to be fond of the fine British tradition of understatement.

What concerns premises, I see you mostly reasoning from a common-sense, empiricist, analytical, materialist premise, which is... just so very British (surprise). But it's probably an advantage not to be burdened with religious or political dogma from the outset. At your age I was more influenced by the continental idealist tradition, especially Kant, but I read British authors from Hume to Russell somewhat later, and I remember having been very impressed, especially by the latter.

Your premises are not wrong, they are just that: your premises. They have a cause, a meaning, and a history of evolution. Changing premises is something that doesn't come easy to most people. It takes something rather extreme, like moving to another country, an NDE, a traumatic experience, to change premises and to induce a paradigm shift.

Cheers, Thomas

[TruthSeeker]

Someone continually challenged everything I said, and then was offended with the idea I was saying he is dumb.
I was actually offended because I thought you meant young people in general are dumb...
I just dislike people saying that children are dumb. I've tried to talk about philosophy before when I was younger and was completely ignored and even put down by some snobish adults before. I just can't stand the whole "you don't know anything because you don't have experience". It's complete bulshit used by adults that lack self-confidence to put children down so taht they can feel empowered. Why do you think children only started having rights around a decade ago!? :o

Take a look at scam. He has experienced the same. And eventough I'm older then him I always tell him he is quite wise- because for a matter of fact, he is.

When we are old, we are amazed by how much we don't know.
True. Specially when you keep digging. You simply wonder if there is an end to the tunnel....
I too believe in the immortal words of Socrates:

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"

But I just don't accept it. If I do, there's no life left to live. At least not for me...

May be if we lived to be 300 years, and our memories remained good, we would become as smart as we thought we were when we were young. But with my experience so far, we would only be even more aware of how much we do not know. Like the more we know of infinite knowledge, the more we know what we do not know.
Yes. That's because you keep digging for the Truth and you keep finding more information that you weren't expecting to find. Sientists who study physics are particularly very much used to that...

I don't mean to challenge or insult anyone. I rather be with people who understand that.
Well, I'm sorry I misunderstood you...

I love teaching, and the nice thing about working with little children is they assume they have much to learn. Somewhere in the teen years, individuals start to think they know all they need to know, and they start challenging everything another said, and assume this is what everyone is doing. It is a long time, before they once again, assume they have much to learn.
Well, I personally like to find new things to learn all the time. That's in fact why I often ignore Socrate's quote. Because if I don't, then what's the point of keep learning?

[TruthSeeker]

The situation we have now is that a group of young people is trying to dominate this board.
:uninvolved:

Sorry... :(
Maybe I should stop talking... :silent:

As you already know, everyone is welcome at thebigview.com, regardless of how old you are and where you come from. But, in order to make this work, everyone needs to be thoughtful and respectful. I will not allow this board to be dominated be anyone.
Well, if all this mess has to do with me I would like to say I have no interest in dominating the board. I'm just interested in discussing with intelligent people. I even left my other forums to come to discuss here...

I am not very pleased with the recent development. If this trend should continue, I will close this board down.
I rather you ban me. I can always read what other people say...
*commence PC self-destruction*
:smash:

...if you want to post mainly smilies.
Well, I only made one emoticon thread... -_-
It's so tempting... there are so many emoticons...
They are great to add some expression...

[TruthSeeker]

I have to come back at least long enough to resolve the problem I created. I am so sorry everyone. The greatest fault may be my own.
No, it was mine. Maybe I just misunderstood what you said in the other thread...

It was not a teenager, and I wouldn't say teenagers are trying to dominate the board, but may have more time and interest to be here. In general the old and the young are not overwhelmed with adult responsibilities and can enjoy exploring life together.
Huuumm... well... I have a 2 month old child and am in the middle of exams so...
I don't really have a whole lot of time myself...!! :lol:

More older posters would be more attractive to older people. I am amazed that this site is not more used by older people, because it is such a well done and highly informative site! But in general especially in the US people just do not study philosphy and they are not doing better than the teenagers. In fact the teenagers are doing better than a lot of adults!
Yes, I agree. And I think that is in great part due to the educational system and the new generation of children, some of which are even called "Indigo Children"....

We are all quilty of the don't's Thomas listed. I am asking myself, why is that I get so upset by what others sometimes say? I imagine Thomas handles this much better than I do. Perhaps I should stay and develop my ability to cope?
I would love you to stay. I like listening to what you have to say.

But there is this factor that I don't feel like I belong to the world of the young. There are sayings about this, and about how the old should leave life to the young. Like I stopped going to bars to dance, when I realized everyone in them was much younger than myself.
Well, you shouldn't. Youth is not a stage in life, it's a state of the spirit and an appreciation and curiosity of living...

I relate better with older people who know what I am saying before I explain anything, and I wonder, should I be arguing with a younger person?
Is it fun to argue with someone who knows what you are saying before you explain anything?


It feels sooo good, when someone knows what I am saying and agrees with my POINT OF VIEW, because s/he has the same POINT OF VIEW. And sometimes it can feel like I am taking a beating when the other has a different POINT OF VIEW, because of an age difference, and jumps on me for saying he is stupid, or for being condesending. It is a sore spot with me. It hurts.

This is a question about boundaries and freedom. Should the old leave the young alone?
No. For a matter, of fact, I enjoy talking with older people and have done that throughout most of my life. I recognize their experience and try to absorb it when talking with them. I even go to a church where more then 90% of the population is above 60 years of age... :o

What of our old fashioned out dated values? Should we keep them to ourselves?
I don't think your values are outdated. Maybe they are just part of the new values?
I don't know. Many young people today have no values, or little values, but not me. But I don't simply have values myself. There's more to values then just values...

This what the hurt is all about, and it didn't start here. It started with our children becoming teenagers and believing they knew better, and many words from younger people at home and on other forms, telling me my values are no good. I need to let them be free, I am calling them stupid, I am condensending. Ouch- I think something terribly wrong began in our schools, and pitted the young against the old. This is not the normal gap of young and old, but is a value gap.
The only thing that has personally driven me away from older people is their persistance in putting children down saying that they are dumb because they have no "experience". Children are not dumb. Of course, not all older people do that. According to what Ericson said, only older people that lack integrity would do such a thing...

[TruthSeeker]

So am I. Especially since the design of this website is so conservative (all black and white, it hasn't changed in 5 years, no flash movies, no blinking stuff, no AJAX), and the topics are not exactly what you see on MTV.
A lot of young people nowdays are very much against authority. They don't like the systems that are in place and they want to see new systems that are all-inclusive rather then living more then half of the world population in extreme poverty. They are also much more inclined to philosophy and other subjects which used to be the interest of older people. They also think and act more like older people...

Btw... I never watched MTV, myself... :D :lol:

I like classical music... :mellow: :cheesy:

[MidnightSun]

No. For a matter, of fact, I enjoy talking with older people and have done that throughout most of my life. I recognize their experience and try to absorb it when talking with them. I even go to a church where more then 90% of the population is above 60 years of age...

I do go to church too, im 15.

I was actually offended because I thought you meant young people in general are dumb...
I just dislike people saying that children are dumb. I've tried to talk about philosophy before when I was younger and was completely ignored and even put down by some snobish adults before. I just can't stand the whole "you don't know anything because you don't have experience". It's complete bulshit used by adults that lack self-confidence to put children down so taht they can feel empowered

Well some can be smart but arrogant, they do like to dominate ,to feel that their the best and put down some kids and their views, but that is not wise.

I do love talking with elders, they have wisdom.They always have something to say, they can teach you a lot and lead you through life. Also..young people are anxious ,they want to know everything and reach stars above. Elders can teach wisdom while kids can show you how to stay happy in your lifetime. Thats why they should share their thoughts and attitudes and help eachother out. And the snobs will always remain snobs,no matter what age they are :)

[locomotive]

integrity, attitude, wisdom, and strategy. In that order.
This is so cool! and AJAX.

let me give you some of my view on this old-young thing cswriter. There is no young and old. There is the one that has something to say wether it be something as simple as "people act often like this" and one that cannot express himself, does not ingage in conversation. That someone will become agitated or whatever but I stick to this saying and I think it applies: " uhh I will finish this post later :)

[TruthSeeker]

I do go to church too, im 15.
That wasn't my point. My point is that most of the church population was over 60 years old.

Well some can be smart but arrogant, they do like to dominate ,to feel that their the best and put down some kids and their views, but that is not wise.
Well, you can be smart and not put some kids and their views down! Just because you are smart, doesn't mean you are a bully! In fact, most bullies are dumb!

I do love talking with elders, they have wisdom.
Well, yes, if they have integrity. Some of them are grumpy and some of them just talk about their past non-stop. I like the ones that have integrity.

They always have something to say, they can teach you a lot and lead you through life. Also..young people are anxious ,they want to know everything and reach stars above. Elders can teach wisdom while kids can show you how to stay happy in your lifetime. Thats why they should share their thoughts and attitudes and help eachother out. And the snobs will always remain snobs,no matter what age they are
I totally agree :)

[Smurf]

Try pouring something into a cup that is allready full.

I don't understand how this applies here?

[Thomas Knierim]

TruthSeeker: "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" But I just don't accept it. If I do, there's no life left to live. At least not for me...

The knowledge of the greatest scholars pales in comparison to the intelligence and complexity of life contained in bucket of water, or on a patch of grass. At some point you just have to accept this fact. Human knowledge is very modest indeed. Every thinking individual comes to this realisation sooner or later. It's like a road block and there is no bypass. It can be passed only by acceptance. Some have already passed it and some haven't yet.

TruthSeeker: That's in fact why I often ignore Socrate's quote. Because if I don't, then what's the point of keep learning?

What is the point of singing if you already know all the notes? :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Yep you are capable of knowing that, by knowing the complexity of a bucket of water or a patch of grass.

[TruthSeeker]

The knowledge of the greatest scholars pales in comparison to the intelligence and complexity of life contained in bucket of water, or on a patch of grass. At some point you just have to accept this fact. Human knowledge is very modest indeed. Every thinking individual comes to this realisation sooner or later. It's like a road block and there is no bypass. It can be passed only by acceptance. Some have already passed it and some haven't yet.
Well, I'm 22. I have plenty of time to have fun on this side of the road block... :D :lol:

What is the point of singing if you already know all the notes?
Huh? :huh:
Ah..... the last time I sang, I knew all my notes.... If I didn't, they I wouldn't be able to sing it properly.... So.... I don't get it.... <_< :think:

[TruthSeeker]

On a second thought, maybe I have accepted my limitations... specially after that thread about absurdutism. Huuumm... I dunno.... <_< :blink: :uhoh:

[scameter]

What do you mean?

[TruthSeeker]

I mean that the fact I see the universed as an absurd blob of improbable probabilities implies that I also perceive knowledge to be pointless! :P :wacko: :silly:

Remember my title... "Surreal Apprentice".... :lol:

[scameter]

Well of course the whole of life, including knowledge, is pointless, except to the individual, giving meaning to everything in life, instead of more to some things than to others. There's an entire philosophy that says this?

[TruthSeeker]

Well of course the whole of life, including knowledge, is pointless, except to the individual, giving meaning to everything in life, instead of more to some things than to others. There's an entire philosophy that says this?

Yes. That's mine.... :D :tao:

[scameter]

You created it?

[TruthSeeker]

Yeah

[scameter]

Hmm...I don't think I would have the confidence, nor the talent, to culminate all my many philosophies, ever-changing as they are even with some being concrete to an extent, into one philosophy, and to then title it. :D

[MidnightSun]

Well, you can be smart and not put some kids and their views down! Just because you are smart, doesn't mean you are a bully! In fact, most bullies are dumb!

Yes, but if a person is smart that dont always mean he's wise too.

[sahyo]

The fact that members like CSWriter and psyche are driven away, and members like fu, Vicente and others don't post anymore or post little, is regrettable.



no one to blame for that

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, but if a person is smart that dont always mean he's wise too.
Well, but bullies are generally neither... <_<

[fu*]

no one to blame for that

Since you never use punctuation, (or make much effort to explain), this small sentance of yours could mean many things. Do you mean..... No ! One to blame. (as in only one (1) not two (2) to blame)? Or....no-one to blame, (as in ' there isn't a "one", one is illusion, so no "one" to blame')? Or no one to blame, it just is.?

What if some one makes a sincere effort to plant a beutiful garden of flowers, and opens it to the public, and others (just because it is open to the public) come in with a rototiller to destroy what has been worked on, and re-plant it to just their preference. Without any consideration of what has been done before, but just because "I" like it this way. Is there "no one to blame"?
Or is it just "regrettable", as he said. ? And so you agree with his post?

[fu*]

Hmmm. Re-read (and first read) some posts without 'preference' to be sure. Seems always worthwhile emptying "cup".

I am an ass.

[Smurf]

You are a donkey? :unsure:

[scameter]

:smoke:

[fu*]

Oh enlightened one Smurfy. You have just gained a perpetual critic of your every posting. Good luck to you.

[fu*]

Another courage-less posting from the boy genius. No courage to post any response to mine, but only a cute smiley as a dig. You and your smurfy friend are the definition of victim tyrant.

I am taking your little smoke-ing smiley as an invitation.

[scameter]

Thank you, friend. :smoke:

[Smurf]

But I find it funny that you were criticising others about their punctuation, yet you couldn't get your words right? If indeed you wanted to be an Arse?

[sahyo]

Do you mean..... No ! One to blame. (as in only one (1) not two (2) to blame)? Or....no-one to blame, (as in ' there isn't a "one", one is illusion, so no "one" to blame')? Or no one to blame, it just is.?

was any one to blame ?

What if some one makes a sincere effort to plant a beutiful garden of flowers, and opens it to the public, and others (just because it is open to the public) come in with a rototiller to destroy what has been worked on, and re-plant it to just their preference. Without any consideration of what has been done before, but just because "I" like it this way. Is there "no one to blame"?
Or is it just "regrettable", as he said. ? And so you agree with his post?

wasn't agreeing with the post

"sincere effort"-I

are certain entent was to "destroy" ?

does "before" matter now ?

[sahyo]

Oh enlightened one Smurfy. You have just gained a perpetual critic of your every posting. Good luck to you.

fu "critic"ing content postings on tbv fu not like ?

[sahyo]

only a cute smiley as a dig

are certain was a "dig"?

[sahyo]

fu

song:


'The Rose'

Some say love, it is a river
that drowns the tender reed.
Some say love, it is a razor
that leaves your soul to bleed.
Some say love, it is a hunger,
an endless aching need.
I say love, it is a flower,
and you its only seed.

It's the heart afraid of breaking
that never learns to dance.
It's the dream afraid of waking
that never takes the chance.
It's the one who won't be taken,
who cannot seem to give,
and the soul afraid of dyin'
that never learns to live.

When the night has been too lonely
and the road has been to long,
and you think that love is only
for the lucky and the strong,
just remember in the winter
far beneath the bitter snows
lies the seed that with the sun's love
in the spring becomes the rose.

[A Student of Life]

Perspective:
1. particular evaluation of something
a particular evaluation of a situation or facts,
especially from one person’s point of view

2. measured assessment of situation
a measured or objective assessment of a situation,
giving all elements their comparative importance

(Encarta Dictionary: English (North American)


If I could only face east and you west, how different our worlds. I would never see the sunset and you would never see the sunrise. We could argue over whose "world" view is correct but, in so doing, wouldn't we each become what we despise in the other?

Tell me then, of your view. I will tell you of mine. Perhaps we will expand each other's horizon.

If you are young, share with me your optimism, your vitality for life, your hopes, dreams, aspirations, fears and be patient, as I awaken my recollection of youth.

If you are old, share with me your optimism, your vitality for life, your hopes, dreams, aspirations, fears and be patient, as I have not walked this path before.

My humble offering,

SOL

[fu*]

Hi asheera, :)

was any one to blame ?

Umm..Umm..Umm... no

"sincere effort"-I

Yes, sincere effort - I

fu "critic"ing content postings on tbv fu not like ?

Yes. Bitter fu seemed to do that. It doesn't taste so good though. There was another "perceived" purpose. Arrows to ego. But deflected thru 'bitter' misses, and doesn't even realize ego as the shooter.

does "before" matter now ?

Of course not, unless hanging on to "before". Sometimes I am amazed at clutching.

Oh well.

Thanks for the 'rose' :)

Scam...There will be bitter asses like fu in your life allways...untill....
Don't let the a-holes get you down, your doing fine.

You too Smurf :)

Love
True-ly
fu
Over & out

[scameter]

Of course there will be fu, I'm quite used to it; got introduced to the biggest one as my mother. Thanks for the advice though. :smoke:

[Smurf]

Does that mean you are going now Fu? :think: <_< :unsure:

[sahyo]

:)

hi fu

expectationing-bittering fu ?

thanking

:)

[CSwriter1]

Thank you , A Student of Life, for your explanation of perspective.

Kids, my life is behind me, kind of like when you graduate from high school, it is behind you. My life went nothing as I planned it, and for a long time I grieved over that. Thank heavens I found philosophy and learned how to make peace with my life.

Now I deal with older people a lot. I take meals to about 26 older people, and occasionally they die. I live in an apartment complex for people 55 and older, and about once a month someone dies. I spend Wednesday evenings and the whole night, with a younger man who has ALS. He hasn't been able to walk or use his arms from years, and depends on others for everything, urinating, turning over at night, eating, etc. His nervous system is slowling dying, so he can't use his muscles and will soon loose the ability to chew and swallow and talk, until he finally looses the ability to breath.

I am saying, from my perspective, life can be full of pain. There are some joys, but sometimes our lives can be so painful, we can not enjoy anything. At least not until philosophically over coming our pain. :nono: FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ENDURE THE MEAN COMMENTS SOME OF YOU ARE MAKING TO EACH OTHER. I SO WISH YOU WOULD AVOID HURTING EACH OTHER, AND WHEN SOMEONE IS HURT, I WISH YOU WOULD APOLOGIZE. GOOD PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS, AND I AM CONFIDENT YOU ALL WANT TO BELIEVE YOU ARE GOOD PEOPLE. :unsure: WHAT IS THE GOOD THING TO DO? WHAT IS EVIL?

[sahyo]

IT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ENDURE THE MEAN COMMENTS

would explain please?

[locomotive]

how old are you? and are you a vegetanerian?

[sahyo]

asking asheera?

[locomotive]

if you want.

[Nitty-Gritty]

I am new to this forum, and I do not know anything of the issue that caused the turmoil that led to this thread. But I hope it is not presumptuous of me to add my two cents worth. Please feel free to partake in whatever is palatable food for thought, and throw the rest in the compost. It is offered in the spirit of good will.

>First off, I wanted to say that the "humble offering" from A Student of Life is wonderful. :thumbsup:

CSwriter1---Sometimes, as we age, we forget what it was like to be young…to feel full of passions, energy, good health, exuberance, doubt, fear, doubtlessness, eagerness to have all our questions answered, believing that we know all the answers and that we know all the questions. I know that I am guilty of forgetting this. I am not saying that we don’t experience these when we get older. We do. But I think we experience them qualitatively different .

Regardless of age, we sometimes forget (or are not aware of) the fact that we all do not have the same capacity for moral reasoning. We all do not have the same capacity for conceptual thought. Some adults never go beyond the stage of either-or, black & white thinking. Some go beyond this stage quite early in life. We all have different values and different priorities in life. We all view life through a different lens. I know that I am guilty of forgetting these things at one time or another.

Witnessing and/or otherwise experiencing pain, tragedy, horror is part of the human condition. Some of us experience these far too early in life while others, not until much later. Some of us experience much more of these than others. And we all react to these experiences differently, and gain different learnings from them. I think most people would not want younger or less experienced persons to go through the tough lessons of life that we have endured. But they must. We cannot live their lives for them. We cannot learn for them. It is their journey. It is these experiences–these opportunities for learning that make us who we are. We can certainly offer to the other our wisdom by providing guidance or acting as a role-model with the hope of lessening their pain. But such offerings may, or may not, be appropriate or useful for the other. And the other is under no obligation to accept them.

I have found that I am sometimes impatient with other people who have not learned the lessons I have learned or who seem unable to view the world through my lens on life. This was true for me when I was 5 years old, it was true when I was 50 years old, and it is true for me today.

Today, if I feel threatened, insulted, or empathically pained by what others say or do [whether it involves me personally or not] then I like to believe I have the good sense to recognize that the issue is mine. As an autonomous, fully functioning, capable adult, I am entirely responsible for what I do with the inter-personal experiences I am involved in. The other’s words or deeds present me with an opportunity to learn more about myself and what I need to do to grow. If I am impatient, then I likely need to work on becoming more patient. If witnessing the pain that others cause is negatively overwhelming for me, then I may need to work on whatever it is within me that leads me to react this way. That could be healing my own past hurts. It could be a personal boundary issue. It could be about a spiritual issue of attachment. Whatever.

Selfishly, I hope you do not leave because I would miss out on all that I could learn from you–directly or indirectly. I am sure there is a lot more we can all learn from you, just as you can learn from us. We are all learning something from this thread. But leaving [permanently or for a short time-out] may be what you need to do right now. Only you are the best judge of that.

Whatever you choose, may your journey be all that you want it to be. :)

[sahyo]

:)


if you want.

[CSwriter1]

I don't want to remember why I started this thread, but do want to move to the one about prolonged life.

Nitty Gritty Regardless of age, we sometimes forget (or are not aware of) the fact that we all do not have the same capacity for moral reasoning. We all do not have the same capacity for conceptual thought. Some adults never go beyond the stage of either-or, black & white thinking.

What you said here really concerns me, especially with the possibility of doubling our life expectancy.
I am concerned with the lack of interest many older people have in learning philosophy or gaining a broader world view. Experience has taught me, this is not just a matter of their lack of interest, but also our failure to present information in an attractive way, to those who are not already college educated in the humanities. Several people attended a philosophical discussion I facilitated, but I was using college professor lectures that were way over everyone's head so they dropped out. I think there would have been more participation, if I had made this information more personal and less academic.

We need to develop informal education for older people, and I would like to return the whole of society to respecting the elderly and accepting there are important differences between youth and adulthood.
Today, many adults are as big children who have not matured, because we stopped using public education for transitioning youth to adulthood. I think there are serious social problems in the US. I am concerned what will happen if these are not corrected before the baby boom generation is gone.

This has everything to do with education for technology which has made many youth amazingly smart, but perhaps not so wise <_< . This is a cultural change that concerns me. I am concerned that technology has been dehumanizing, and that we need to correct this or the future may not be so good :huh:

This is not just about youth, but also engaging the baby boomers and older people in consciousness expanding education. Like we all have been worshiping technology and perhaps too accepting of the dehumanizing factors of abundance and technology. I think in the US our perspective is distorted, and perhaps in India too? In India where the ruling class tends to be those who speak English and have more consciousness of western ways than of their own people, there may also be a growing problem?

China has made a huge leap into the future, but many are being left behind as China leap frogs forward. Will it loose some of its humanity as it gains technology? Will their old be left behind, and their young separated from the old and their past? When tradition breaks down, there is social chaos. This benefits change but doesn't assure change will be good. A competitive nation of single young males detached from the past and their ancestors /traditions, is potentially dangerous. Such may gain great military might, but not the wisdom to use it well.

Not that age is the cure all. Cheney is pretty old and made a stupid mistake thinking we could scare Muslims into submitting to the US with big bombs. I will be glad when those effected by WWII are gone, because they are too often overly focused on war. Right now the US is dominated by those who live for advancing war technology and could not care less about humanity.

[sahyo]

Today, many adults are as big children who have not matured, because we stopped using public education for transitioning youth to adulthood.



no such thing as "adulthood"

[Smurf]

Yes there is, there is a specific period in life where the actions and emotions, attutides towards things and understanding wisdom and maturity towards life in general seperates youth from adulthood.

[sahyo]

what "youth" "adulthood" smurf ?
...a dividing point ?

[Smurf]

you could say that, bu the actual point of division would be very vauge and relies on the circumstances, it would span over a period of transition

[sahyo]

transitioning thinking ?

[Smurf]

hmm, bit vague Asheera, sorry :(
I will learn to understand you but I feel that i am not as smart as you yet... could you perhaps rephrase :unsure:

[sahyo]

sweeting

no sorry

no smart asheera you to smart as


maybe it is a pure "mind-Substance" completely unphysical and exists in the thinking plain



changing thinking ?

[Smurf]

really? :thumbsup:

ahhh I get it!

so you're saying that adulthood would change the way one thinks?

[sahyo]

ok :)



so you're saying that adulthood would change the way one thinks?


word youth word adult as though can solid constanting changing thinking ?

[Smurf]

hmm

ok




nope

:(

[sahyo]

ok





http://mahjoob.com/en/forums/images/smilies/hug.gif

[sahyo]

was responsing :( smurf

[Smurf]

:)

[Smurf]

ok


this?

that they are only words and in fact it is just one life that constantly canges throughout? that adulthood and youth are just aspects and not completely defined periods of a person's life?

[sahyo]

:)

if not word 'youth' 'adulthood'
then what 'aspects' ?

yes constanting-changing
no defined-periods

"one" ?

[poulenc]

This might not be entirely germane to the subject of aging...but then again, it is. Just a quote from Bernice Johnson Reagon of Sweet Honey in the Rock that I wanted to share--it meant a lot to me when I read it:

"Go back to the last place where you knew who you were, and what you were doing, and start from there."

Transforming advice! I'm edging up on age 60 and find sometimes that depression about the (lack of) meaning in my life gets me down.

Hope some of you, young and old, find this of help.

[sahyo]

"Go back to the last place where you knew who you were, and what you were doing, and start from there."



not possible, dear

memorying maybe thinking is happening but not

[poulenc]

Hi, Asheera. (Beautiful name, by the way.) Well, it's certainly not physically possible, I know, but mentally, I think it is. Memory is an aid in this. It's like bringing the mind back to the breath in meditation, after your monkey mind has led you down those back alleys of thought...but on a much larger scale, of course!

[Smurf]

if not word 'youth' 'adulthood'
then what 'aspects' ?

yes constanting-changing
no defined-periods



hmm yes

"one" ?

two? :D

yes, everything is as it should be, no illusions

[sahyo]

:P smurfing



"one"?


was respsonsing:


it is just one life




yes, everything is as it should be, no illusions


"should be"?


;)

[Smurf]

ahh One life,

yes, referring to the one life that we have in this existence



and should be, that there is a reason to everything, otherwise we would not exist. That everything is as it should be, or everything exists because it does exist

[sahyo]

:o oop whoop yoyoing smurf

[Smurf]

The only problems that happen are because we ascribe problems; we create/find the problems

As we get older this becomes more apparant I suppose

[sahyo]

maybe

[Smurf]

:think:

just maybe? :P

[buzzlightyear1982]

Thinking always changes with every passing year, thats what makes us differant. You thinking patterns are going to change as you get older and that is just a fact of life. If it didn't work that way then we would all still think like five-year-olds when we are thirty B) The question you should be asking is:

Does our thinking patterns change for the better or the worst?

[poulenc]

I am 58. When I was in high school--my god, 41 years ago!!--I had a wonderful French teacher. Everyone in that high school, even the school's criminal element, loved Miss Walsh, because she would always stand up for students over teachers or school administrators. She told a group of us once that when she was our age, she made a conscious vow to herself to never forget what hell it was to be a kid. She promised herself that she would not allow the years to gloss everything over and give her false memories of her high school days as "the best years of her life." "Merde!" she would shout, "no one respects young people." Well, she did, passionately. And I have always been careful myself to follow her example.

Discrimination against the elderly is a real problem. So is discrimination against youth.

[TruthSeeker]

Yes! Yes! :applause:

I suffered a lot of discrimination when I was younger... :nono:

[buzzlightyear1982]

I believe everyone suffers discrimination in some form or the other while growing up. Not saying what you went through was any less wrong or dramatic. But it's all in how you handle it, however, I have to say that the worst type of discrimination has to be streotyping B)

[Trevor]

And sometimes it can feel like I am taking a beating when the other has a different POINT OF VIEW, because of an age difference, and jumps on me for saying he is stupid, or for being condesending. It is a sore spot with me. It hurts.
I feel this way too, I think it is very human. Please read the short story "Vita" that I posted in Culture and Lifestyle, if you feel inclined. I wrote it in high school, when I was 18. I am 38 now, and sometimes I go - "Did I really write that?" Age is a very personal thing, and sometimes the older we get, the younger we feel...