The Limitations Of Buddhism?

[TruthSeeker]

I love Buddhism. However, one question that have always been in my mind is whether there is a huge flaw on the whole concept or not. Maybe it is my understanding of the subject, but here is the issue that I can't get my mind through...

Buddhism teaches that suffering is caused by desires, right? So if we resign from all our desires, we can stop our suffering. I think that works really well in most occasions. However, what about food? Don't we need food to survive? Dont' we have suffering in the world because of the lack of food that some people experience? So how can we reconcile that? Because food is not just a desire... we need it to survive. And if we don't eat, it hurts and then we have suffering!!

I'm really curious because I read the story of Sidarta and I know that he got a vow of poverty and obviously most likely experienced starvation himself. So how did he come up with the whole avoidance of suffering?

Does anyone understand this? :think:

[lenin32]

Its all a matter of degree. As long as one is eating for the purpose of living, and not simply eating twinkies for his/her own gratification, then eating is not bad.

[lenin32]

Another thing to remember is that the buddah understood the concept that i just described in the last post. In fact, he quit starving himself, and drank milk; which was very taboo among fellow laymen.

[lenin32]

This concept can be applied to everything from sex to watching tv. If one is doing it for a constructive purpose, then it is not desire which is ruling the action. Therefore, the objective of "lack of desire" is achieved.

[TruthSeeker]

Yes, yes, I know the whole moderation thing. I even have a button on my backpack saying "To have more desire less". The problem is that there is people in the world who suffers because they don't have access to food. So my question is: how do you reconcile that? Unless they don't care about whether they are in pain or die. It's hard to not suffer with the pain though. I mean... you cannot avoid the physical hunger pains, right?

[scameter]

Suffering is apart of life. Suffering can be transcended once one's psyche is liberated of all karma and enlightenment and subsequent nirvana is attained. But, much of the suffering of society is caused by society it's self, through money greed, and such similar evils. This could be fixed, but most people truly do not wish it to be, particularly those with the money.

[Thomas Knierim]

TruthSeeker: Buddhism teaches that suffering is caused by desires, right?

No, not directly. Desire is a feature of the human machine, if you like. It is "hardcoded" in the mammalian brain, the limbic system. There are structures in the brain as well as neurotransmitters which center around desire. For example, desire is essential to motivation. This means if desire was indeed the cause of suffering, there would be no escape from suffering, because we obviously cannot reengineer our central nervous system.

However, the Buddha taught there is an end to suffering.

Reread the four noble truths. The cause of suffering is tanha. Although tanha is often translated with desire, the exact meaning is not desire, but craving, clinging, attachment. Thus suffering is caused by craving, clinging, and attachment. These are different psychological entities.

Desire is a mental event, a natural response to stimuli. When desire turns into clinging, craving, attachment it gains a different dimension. The frontal lobes are now involved, and a wholly new conceptual level emerges. Suffering can be ended by cutting off the progression from desire to craving.

scameter: Suffering can be transcended once one's psyche is liberated of all karma and enlightenment and subsequent nirvana is attained.

There seems to be a misunderstanding. Neither Buddhism nor any other Eastern religion holds that liberation of karma is possible. Karma affects the psychophysical circle of birth and death just as a magnetic field affects a passing electron. There is no way for an electron to undo a magnetic field, likewise there is no way for a sentient being to undo karma. However, sentient beings can escape karma, like an electron can escape a magnetic field.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Oh yes, you're right, sorry! I meant that it is possible to escape both suffering and karma, not to liberate it. lol Sorry. :P

[TruthSeeker]

No, not directly. Desire is a feature of the human machine, if you like. It is "hardcoded" in the mammalian brain, the limbic system. There are structures in the brain as well as neurotransmitters which center around desire. For example, desire is essential to motivation. This means if desire was indeed the cause of suffering, there would be no escape from suffering, because we obviously cannot reengineer our central nervous system.

However, the Buddha taught there is an end to suffering.

Reread the four noble truths. The cause of suffering is tanha. Although tanha is often translated with desire, the exact meaning is not desire, but craving, clinging, attachment. Thus suffering is caused by craving, clinging, and attachment. These are different psychological entities.

Desire is a mental event, a natural response to stimuli. When desire turns into clinging, craving, attachment it gains a different dimension. The frontal lobes are now involved, and a wholly new conceptual level emerges. Suffering can be ended by cutting off the progression from desire to craving.
Ha... I stand corrected...
Translations can be quite tricky...

Still... what about hunger? Isn't there suffering because of hunger?

[Thomas Knierim]

TruthSeeker: Still... what about hunger? Isn't there suffering because of hunger?

Yes, the average person suffers from hunger.

But you have to differentiate between physiological suffering and psychological suffering. Withdrawal of food causes discomfort and mild pain. Prolonged withdrawal causes the body to convert stored fat into energy. Further prolongation causes a multitude of effects associated with malnutrition and eventual starvation. These consequences seem to be inevitable.

However, these are quite different from the psychological effects. Many people go nuts if they are only one day without food. So, the psychological response is often far from adequate. It is due to craving, clinging, and attachment. The psychological suffering is often far worse than the physiological consequences.

Now, the key to this is that it is possible to suffer the physiological consequences without suffering the psychological consequences. Asceticism is based on this realisation and its principal idea is the uncoupling of the two. This means negative physiological experiences, such as hunger, thirst, pain can be uncoupled from negative psychological states.

Cheers, Thomas

[locomotive]

yeah something similair was on my mind namely that form leads to desire and this leads to some other things.. but it explains well that the difference between right-mindedness and uh not right-mindedness is that the one keeps the desire in mind and moves on the other is caught by it something like clinging this leads to poor deciscions.

[TruthSeeker]

Yeah... I'm talking about physiologial suffering...

So Buddhism does not resolve physiological suffering...?

[scameter]

Physiological suffering is an illusion, just like the rest of physical existence; you feel physical suffering because you aren't enlightened. In a sense, your karma causes you to feel physical suffering. Mental/spiritual suffering is the true suffering.

[sahyo]

Many people go nuts if they are only one day without food.

no

[Smurf]

As with all religions, I go only so far, I use some principles from Christianity, Islam, Taoism, Buddhism etc... I don't really have one dogma printed on my soul, yet I cling to multiple beliefs

what do you think? :unsure:

[Thomas Knierim]

TruthSeeker: So Buddhism does not resolve physiological suffering...?

This point is difficult to understand. Buddhism does resolve physiological suffering, because it ultimately aims at nirvana, which is the cessation of all suffering. At some point there is the realisation that the psychophysical entity we take for self is not self. Simultaneously the physical and the psychological is revealed to be one and the same thing. As a consequence, we can defeat physical suffering by defeating psychological suffering. This realisation is at the same time trivial and deep, depending on the degree of understanding and practice. Advanced meditators are able to defeat physical suffering.

Cheers, Thomas

[TruthSeeker]

Ok. That answers my question. :)

Thanks :thumbsup:

[Chance]

You said, "Because food is not just a desire... we need it to survive." We are not eating because we desire it, we are eating it for a constructive purpose.

[MidnightSun]

food is not just a desire... we need it to survive

...and...

We are not eating because we desire it, we are eating it for a constructive purpose

...is the same

[scameter]

Not all food is for a constitutive purpose. If we did it logically, we would have our scientists invent a paste that retained all the necessary nutrients we need, and would then drink water with added nutrients. But, we don't do that; we eat and drink things that we enjoy.

[MidnightSun]

Hmm can we reach nirvana?

Buddhists say that every man can do the same as buddha did.

[scameter]

Just as Jesus said anyone can be as he was, and more. Jesus also called himself the Way. Coincidence? I think not. :)

[TruthSeeker]

:o

Duh! How could I have missed that!? :duh: