The Viability Of The Counter Culture

[lenin32]

I think that the topic of the counter culture is a very important one to discuss. Too many people try to ignore them as a fluke; a screw up on the conveyor belt. But Every day that passes, their numbers grow, and their beliefs become more entrenched in our culture.

Are they a viable opposition to the government?

Or are they a bunch of degenerate losers, with nothing better to do but smoke pot and meditate?

[TruthSeeker]

Who are they? <_<

[lenin32]

What do you mean, "Who are they?" You cannot tell me that you have never heard of a "Counter culture" like that of the sixites?

[Kether]

There is something fundamentally wrong with society as it stands, and so an alternative is essential. However, to conclude that society cannot be changed, and that the best thing to do is to leave it, is a very misguided one. A person who tries to live apart from society, especially in this day and age, will find it impossible to cut all ties with it. Not only is retreating futile, but it involves abandoning others, so it is not the ethical thing to do either.

That said, the bravery involved in defying tradition and the cultural status quo is admirable.

[lenin32]

Everything, including revolutions, need beginnings; the counter culture is no exception. I belive that these "misguided individuals" are simply searching for alternative lifestyle, and a means to implement it.

Remember the American Revolution when this topic is brought up, for reference purposes.

[lenin32]

where is it located in the website?

[Kether]

In Culture and Lifestyle; you may have to go some way back to find it.

Yes, revolutions must have beginnings, and alternative- and counter-cultures may be good starting points for a better world; however, reform of society must always be kept in sight as an end. Counter-cultures can achieve nothing for anyone but themselves if they do not do this, though they may inspire other groups of people.
Remember the American Revolution when this topic is brought up, for reference purposes.
The early settlers in America may have been religious refugees seeking a new way of life, which is what I think you are referring to. The settlers failed in this respect, since living in total isolation is not feasible. The American Revolution was not brought about by these settlers, but by progressive people with agendas for reform.

[TruthSeeker]

What do you mean, "Who are they?" You cannot tell me that you have never heard of a "Counter culture" like that of the sixites?
Who are they right now?

Of course a counter culture is importance. How else will society improve?
Are they a viable opposition to the government? It depends. If they are strong enough lobby and possibly fight for it...

They are not losers. They defy the norm. How can someone like that be a loser?

[Kether]

And the norm is so corrupt that defiance of it is the only sane thing to do.
Defying convention is important, but most counter-cultures have ended up not doing that - as a lifestyle accessory, another bland facet of capitalist society with no worthwhile social ends. It is essential that they never fall into the rut of being fashionable...

[scameter]

Hmm...I love culture. To me, culture is amazing. But, I am not clear on why culture is immediately associated with society as it is now. Culture could be anything from a tribal society to a modern society, but not one or the other. To me, counter culture is entirely wrong, just as much as the prodestants were wrong for not trying to change and adapt the Catholic church, but rather to entirely defy it and begin their own church. Culture is simply apart of humanity, and to deny culture to me seems impossible. How could we be culture-less? One counter to our current society, a different type of culture, that I have found is that of the neo-tribalist philosophy, especially discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Tribalism. It is rather interesting how they link tribalism with modernism, and I think you people would specifically find it intriguing. I personally prefer modern-like society, but not as it is now. In a more classical sense, sort of that of ancient Greece or even renaissance England, Italy, and Germany, because they tended to center more on academic pursuits with a very acute curiosity which fostered the modern academic revolutions (modern being from about 1800 forward, in this particular perspective). I think money is the true problem in current society. If society was more like that of Star Trek's Federation, then indeed, it would be perfect (yes, it's science fiction, but not all fantasy is idiotic).

[lenin32]

What you say is true scameter.

sort of that of ancient Greece or even renaissance England, Italy, and Germany, because they tended to center more on academic pursuits

One must remember, education was only provided to the rich in most of the european nations that you named. Its not like the government was handing out scholarship money, like it does now. The government thought it best to give the rich the only real chance for an education. Culture is fine, but the real problem lies in the governing bodies of the world. For the most part, the people of the counter culture understand this. If it was simply greasers against the clean cuts, it would be simple. This is about freedom from governmental control, not what your "style" is.

[scameter]

Indeed true. Except that about the government giving out money for scholarships; it may have things such as student loans, but then the person is in debt for a long time unless they're rich, thus money is still everything to people, as it has always been and always will be. Money is the detrement to everything, unfortunately, and people essentially worship it. It is as much of a religion as science or Islam is. Thus, essentially, the counter culture's true cause is to eliminate the effects of money.

[lenin32]

Not only to eliminate money, but the entirety of western culture. Anything less would make little or no difference in our world.

[TruthSeeker]

Yes... modern western culture is pretty bad..

[lenin32]

What i wish i could do is live in some sort of tribe.

[locomotive]

why would you want to do that?

[scameter]

Not only to eliminate money, but the entirety of western culture.

Hmm...well, I like some things of Western culture; and alot about European culture. I do not think it needs to be eliminated, but money certainly does.

What i wish i could do is live in some sort of tribe.

I would like to've lived in Germany around the time of Bach. Or perhaps in ancient Greece, or in the "Dark Ages" in Britain; being a druid would've been pretty cool. :P

[sonrisa]

Scam, don't you mean that greed needs to be eliminated? You don't want to eliminate money, becuz then we'd have to go back to bartering, & that can get cumbersome. Say for instance, you are a shoemaker & I need a pair of shoes. I make jewelry, but you aren't interested in the jewelry I have to barter. Which means I'm gonna have to go find somebody who wants some jewelry and who has something that you want, so I can trade it for the shoes. Some folx would always have trouble bartering with others, for instance I don't like milk, so if the milkman wants any jewelry, he would have to first barter his milk for something that I would take in trade for the jewelry. Infact, this is how money came into being- people realized there had to be something universal that everbody would take in trade for their goods/services, so they wouldn't have to barter around. Money wasn't always coins either. For a while salt was used as money, it's where our word salary comes from. I like local money or community money. Sometimes it's called sweat money, the "sweat" generally being around $10/hr- a decent wage. By using it, you support your community, the folx whose goods & services you use, & a decent wage for those goods & services.

As to the Counterculture, I hope it's viable, It had better be! Eventually, the repugs are gonna implode everything, & when this happens, the further off their grid you are, the better your chances of picking up the pieces & moving on with your life.

[scameter]

One cannot eliminate greed, because it is inherent in humanity. Money, being the true tool of greed, and not simply a means of getting our of what we used for thousands of years (a barter system, that worked perfectly until people disliked the equality afforded by it and wished more power to the individual, and began valuing "luxuries" so as to use them to gain such power), was made to satisfy greed without the need for physical strength, different to more military cultures, where physical might was valued as power above luxury accumulation. This gave anyone from a large, physically strong, mighty warrior, to a small, short, fat, ugly little person the ability to have power without the need for physical combat, and this system has been perfected in America, under the name "capitalism".

[lenin32]

Thank you very much for that eloquent posting, scameter.

I only disagree with one part of it: this system has been perfected in America, under the name "capitalism".

I think it is far from perfection. Too much money collects at the top. The trickle down theory is a myth, invented by the wealthy.

[TruthSeeker]

It accumulates at the top largely due to compounding.
And it also gets away from the bottom largely due to compounding, for a matter of fact... :rolleyes:

[scameter]

I think it is far from perfection. Too much money collects at the top. The trickle down theory is a myth, invented by the wealthy.

:) Ah, true. Although, it is close, and people are certainly working towards it by increasing the number of people in the upper-middle class.

And it also gets away from the bottom largely due to compounding, for a matter of fact...

Like a dam! :D

[lenin32]

The real question is whether or not the counter culture will make a difference in the way society functions. Or will it simply stay underground for its entire existence. :think:

[scameter]

As it has done for so long, yes, probably. Or indeed, has it acted before?

[lenin32]

The philosophy of the hippie culture (Circa 1960's) has definitely affected our culture. I personally believe it has affected us negatively. The baby boomer generation was porbably one of the worst generations of parents in history. :o

[scameter]

I personally liked the hippie philosophy, but indeed they were still people.

[sonrisa]

here's something for you to mull over Scam- if the barter system was so bloody perfect, then how come it fell into disuse thousands of years ago? How come it still isn't in general usage to this very day?

Bartering is only "perfect" when each person has something the other wants. Otherwise there's no swap. I speak from experience- I sell my jewelry & ceramic pieces at craft shows. When a show's really sucking & nobody's making any table rent, much less profit, the crafters will often barter wih each other to get things from other tables that they want. I have nothing against this, I've had crafters offer me stuff from their table that they're selling for say, $25 or even $30 for something of mine that I'm selling for $20. Customers with money will try to haggle me down to $15 (which I'll accept) or worse (no deal) for a $20 item. I've even initiated barters when I see that the crafter eyeballing something on my table has something on their table that I want. I've even been involved in 3-way swaps. And that is the problem with bartering- when you have to involve 1 or more people in what should be a simple transaction between 2 people to obtain something. And as I said before, that's how money came into existence- people realized there had to be something that would be universially accepted by everybody in exchange for goods &/or services rendered.

And what makes you think the barter system is equal? Obviously grocers, farmers, and other folx bartering food are going have a distinct advantage over those who are not. As for services, doctors shouldn't have trouble bartering services, since folx need medical care from time to time. A general handyman probably wouldn't have trouble bartering his services either, neither should a plumber or an electrician, but a landscaper would have trouble bartering his services to somebody with no yard. Money otoh, is an equalizer, not in quantity- obviously there are rich folx & poor ones- but in value, as in my $ is as good your $. It doesn't matter who you are or what you have to barter, if you have $ you can get the goods &/or services you want/need directly from the person who has them. No need to barter around for something they'll accept in trade. And if you don't like their price, & you got the time, you can wait for it to go on sale.

Course the money system isn't perfect either, which is why we're moving towards the plastic system..... :blink:

[Smurf]

yes Sonrisa

the greed shall never be full
yet the want shall always commit

[sonrisa]

commit wut?

[Smurf]

umm... stuff? :D
it's just a thing I thought up... :P

[scameter]

here's something for you to mull over Scam- if the barter system was so bloody perfect, then how come it fell into disuse thousands of years ago? How come it still isn't in general usage to this very day?

Nothing to mull over. The reason it became out of use is because people began getting surpluses of resources and had a larger population and had many more lords, rulers, and kings, and those people desired more power, and to them, having the most resources was the best way to go. Thus, money came about, eliminating the prosperity of the barter system. But, this makes entire sense, and suits humanity. Obviously, the barter system didn't work, so now, wonderful money rules, and it is such a wonderful, beneficial, necessary aspect of human society.

Course the money system isn't perfect either, which is why we're moving towards the plastic system.....

Oh no, the money system is ultimately perfect, especially in it's incarnation as capitalism. It gives everyone equal opportunity to be rich kings, and to have power, reputation, and the hope of progression monetarily. Credit cards, debit cards, and other plastic forms of money transference are simply that, other, simpler means of money transfer. I was wrong to ever question the glory of money. Of course the barter system couldn't work. And equality is most assuredly not going to ever happen and couldn't work either, as is the same with war, famine, and every other large "problem" with humanity. But, money is most definitely perfect and necessary, and as time goes, we're simply getting better at it.

[sonrisa]

no Scam, plastic is the ultimate equalizer. Even tho money is almost universially accepted (except for CODs, nobody does those any more except the pizza dude) as an exchange medium, & has standardized values (nickels, dimes quarters, dollars, etc..) there's still that quantity thing- some folx have more $ than others. Plastic levels that playing field- anybody with a piece of plastic can get whatever their evver luvvin heart desires.

PLASTIC RULES BABY

[lenin32]

Are there any elements of the hippie culture that should be implemented into our culture in your opinions?

[Thomas Knierim]

Sonrisa: PLASTIC RULES BABY

On my first trip to the US I bought something in an convenience store. At the checkout line the cashier asked me: "Plastic or paper?" I had no idea what she wanted. After a few seconds of intense reflection I concluded that the question was aimed at my preferred method of wrapping the goods. Since I hate plastic bags, I answered "Paper, please," and handed her a $10 note. After she gave me the change, she stuffed the goods into a plastic bag. It left me puzzled for a while.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

I think so, yes. Particularly the desire for peace, and that sort of individualist character so common in the American style, but oddly seemingly unpresent recently, unfortunately.

lol Oh, I assume she meant card or cash. But, even through use of credit cards, it is still simply money. Money can be anything with no real value in and of it's self, such as paper money and credit cards; and even things such as gold that have value are sold for money, not used as money themselves.

[lenin32]

Is it true that american money is no longer backed by gold. I hear that late in the past century, we all just agreed that paper money would be worth money (for lack of better words)

[sonrisa]

we went off the gold standard when the Depression hit. Then we began using the silver standard. I thought we were still using it, but ICBW. Course it doesn't matter cuz we're moving towards the plastic standard....

Thomas--the clerk wanted to know what kind of bag you wanted. I don't know why she gave you a plastic one when you asked for paper, however.

Lenin--Are there any elements of the hippie culture that should be implemented into our culture in your opinions?

-- peace, tolerance & concern for others, lack of greed

[scameter]

Is it true that american money is no longer backed by gold. I hear that late in the past century, we all just agreed that paper money would be worth money (for lack of better words)

Same here. I thought that money meant just as much as gold, if not more, to people now.

-- peace, tolerance & concern for others, lack of greed

Indeed.

[MidnightSun]

Same here. I thought that money meant just as much as gold, if not more, to people now.

Both valuable, but...Money is money and gold is a lot of money. :D

[scameter]

Except that money is more definite. Gold is a one time translation into money, thus it is better to have alot of money than alot of gold. And, not everyone wants gold. Of course wall street'll take anything, but not everyone would. But everyone takes money.

[sonrisa]

have you seen The Wizard of Oz Scam? It's about the gold standard vs the silver standard.

[scameter]

<_< It is? Hmm...I always saw it as being a quite disturbing fantasy story. :D

[MidnightSun]

thus it is better to have alot of money than alot of gold. And, not everyone wants gold

It came form arrogance too. Some people would pick less money than much gold ,because they are too lazy making money from gold.

[lenin32]

Does anyone in here believe it possible for man to achieve comfort, and to have advanced technnology, without destroying his home? Or does progress produce 'reversion', and ultimately mans downfall?

[scameter]

If by his home you mean nature, I would say indeed it is possible, without our destroying it, or harming it more appropriately. Through very advanced technology, we could clean the pollution from the world, bring to a halt oil-using vehicles in place of electric-powered cars, increase electric-powered public transportation availability, and eliminate money. With this, it could certainly be done. And, with nanotech, we could also eliminate hunger and many other things, such as the necessity to mine for metals or perform agriculture to acquire food.

[lenin32]

But eventually, with such great conditions, the population of humans will rise substantially. This will cause over population, and lead to deforestation on grand levels. Where will that lead?

[scameter]

It is a fact that is every single person in the entire world stood side by side, they could fit in Florida. The world is much larger than the human population; we simply feel the need to spread out. But, if we must, then we should go elsewhere, such as the Moon or space stations, but nature should not feel detrement because of our self-indulgant arrogance.

[sonrisa]

I'm curious Scam, why do you find The Wizard of Oz disturbing? I love The Wizard of Oz it's one of my all time fave movies.

[scameter]

It's simply odd. Not for any philosophic reason; I just find it...creepy.

[buzzlightyear1982]

Which part do you find creepy about it? Is it the whole parallel universe part 0or the talking animales and flying monkeys. My mom was scared to death of the flying monkeys when she was growing up. However, when I saw it for the first time it was my favorite part of the movie. I can't stand the movie now...it puts me to sleep B)

[scameter]

Well, not really because of any particular part of the movie. Just, the entire atmosphere of it; it's just...odd. But not a good odd, like Dracula or something; more like a mix of oddity and horror. lol

[buzzlightyear1982]

I can see where you would come up with that...but at the same time it does have it's moral leasons to it as well B)

[sonrisa]

I'm surprised you like the monkeys best, Buzz They're in the color secton. I figured you'd like the B&W parts the best :D

[scameter]

I wasn't paying enough attention to see the morality in it buzz. lol

[buzzlightyear1982]

The moral value of the film is she kept wishing to somewhere else and in the end she realized there was no place like the very place she was wishing she could get away from. In short, it's one of those you don't really know what you have till you lose it B)

[scameter]

Well, if that would've been in a different context, I would've noticed it. lol

[buzzlightyear1982]

An good example of that moral is a movie I watched a couple days ago, it's call My Best friends Wedding B)

[scameter]

Hmm...don't think I've ever seen that one. Aren't Julia Roberts and Cameron Diaz in it?

[buzzlightyear1982]

Yes, that would be the one :thumbsup: