Can We "unlearn" Fear?

[Squish]

OK, so my new manager is Puerto Rican. She's a great woman, and extremely intelligent. IN WORK we get along famously. We've become really good "work" friends, and in work I respect her quite a bit. However, outside of work I doubt we could EVER be good friends. Her background is SO different from mine that I really think we'd have serious issues. I'm EXTREMELY uncomfortable even coming close to anything that could possibly be construed as racial or degrading to women because she's REALLY touchy about both topics. I don't feel like I'm either racist or a misogynist in any way, shape, or form. (That's not just ignorance talking either.) What I feel is that it's almost like she's LOOKING for something to be offended about. Hands down.

I've had to "talk her off the edge" so to speak a few times since she's taken over because she's taken things the wrong way when dealing with others in the company. She's only been a manager for 2 months now, and has already had a few e-mail "altercations" with others in the company. Sometimes, I think me talking her down is one of the few things that have allowed her to keep her from totally blowing her top and keeping her job. Most of the "occurrences" have been because she's felt like the people are "trying to take advantage of her because she's a woman". Most of her world seems to be filtered through this "built in" perspective. I think she feels the need to "prove herself" for fear of not being respected either as a woman, or because she's Puerto Rican. She's as much as said it in so many words. It's obviously something she's grown up with and "learned". It's frustrating because she's got great potential as a leader, and a person, and yet seems to be limiting herself to this way of viewing the world.....

[Smurf]

Well, if the question is: Can we unlearn fear?

the answer is: yes

by using classical conditioning

[scameter]

I personally think it is impossible to unlearn fear, because it wasn't learned in the first place.

[Smurf]

yes it was, one can learn to associate fear with an event or ocurrance, so using that we can associate the event with something nice to "unlearn" that fear.

[scameter]

That would be unlearning the conditioning, not the actual fear it's self. Fear is there as soon as we are born; yes, we can be taught to fear certain things, but those fears are far less genuine than actual fears, such as the fear of death, which is not something taught. Fear as a mechanism cannot be unlearned because it was never learned.

[Thomas Knierim]

Concerning the thread question: no, we cannot unlearn fear because fear is not learned. However, we can disarm fear. That is done by disassociating things or events with fear. For most people, this is a very difficult process.

What concerns Squish's manager the issue seems to be more complex. It's something else than fear. If you feel that way about her, maybe you can help her. That's a big maybe, of course.

Cheers, Thomas

[MidnightSun]

Thats what i wanted to say. You cant unlear nfear, u can stop to fear.

[Smurf]

That would be unlearning the conditioning, not the actual fear it's self. Fear is there as soon as we are born; yes, we can be taught to fear certain things, but those fears are far less genuine than actual fears, such as the fear of death, which is not something taught. Fear as a mechanism cannot be unlearned because it was never learned.

but fearing death is associating death with fear, we can learn to not fear it?

maybe though down the genetic line, fear was learned at some point... then passed down through the generations

[Smurf]

yep

but we can "unlearn" or forget fear, fear doesn't exist on its own, it is attached to something, such as happiness can be attached to a loved one, fear is attached to heights for example... using this we can then "get" rid of the fear.

[scameter]

I agree Thomas.

but fearing death is associating death with fear, we can learn to not fear it?

No, that's not what it is: we do not learn or condition ourselves to place fear onto death. We fear death instinctually, naturally; unless we believe we are dying for a good reason, and even then, we will fear death. Anything and anyone would.

but we can "unlearn" or forget fear, fear doesn't exist on its own, it is attached to something, such as happiness can be attached to a loved one, fear is attached to heights for example... using this we can then "get" rid of the fear.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Fear is apart of our psyches, our minds and especially, our unconsciouses; it cannot be unlearned. Yes, fears we have learned, such as with some people the fear of having sex and talking about it publically, can be unlearned, but natural fears, such as fearing danger or death, cannot be unlearned because they were never learned in the first place. And happiness really isn't a very good parallel with fear; happiness is a moreso spiritual state of being, fear is a reaction, a feeling, an emotion. Happiness cannot be learned, but it isn't there without choice either. It happens because of a mix of the situation, the individual's choice for it, and perhaps if one believes this, on the spiritual state of the individual, i.e. karma, grace, faith, etc.

[Thomas Knierim]

psyche: the best help anyone could give her is to think about seeking counseling...

I am not so sure. In America, of course, people seek counseling for almost everything, as if counseling itself was a solution. In Europe, people are usually more conservative. Psychiatrists are involved in more severe cases where people actually require therapy or medication.

Perhaps all she needs is a good friend.

The thing is, it is impossible to tell without knowing her personally.

scameter: but fearing death is associating death with fear, we can learn to not fear it?

Principally yes. It is not as uncommon as you might think, though it's still a tough job. For example, terminally ill patients have to go through it. There is a well defined four stage process, but not everybody comes to terms with it.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Principally yes. It is not as uncommon as you might think, though it's still a tough job. For example, terminally ill patients have to go through it. There is a well defined four stage process, but not everybody comes to terms with it.

:duh: :duh: :duh: I-I'm sorry my friend...I didn't actually say what you quoted, smurf did. :( But, about your response, yes they can be taught to not entirely let it's coming ruin and break them down, but they will fear death, it is inevitable and cannot be entirely defeated or even blinded against.

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: But, about your response, yes they can be taught to not entirely let it's coming ruin and break them down, but they will fear death, it is inevitable and cannot be entirely defeated or even blinded against.

Yes, the fear of death can be utterly defeated. I have seen examples of this myself. It is rare though. Residues of fear and anxiety are more common.

Cheers, Thomas

[TruthSeeker]

Can We "unlearn" Fear?
Fear is usually caused by the abscence of knowledge.
For example, we are afraid of death because we don't know what death brings.
In this case, fear can be unlearned by acquiring knowledge.

On the other hand, fear can also be caused by the avoidance of pain. For example, if you fall, you feel pain and can become afraid of falling. This situation is a little bit interesting. The person will become afraid only if the person is not strong enough to deal with the situation. If you fall and you are capable of dealing with the situation and getting over it, you can bypass fear. One of the factors that most influence that is a person's integrity. A person with integrity can feel safe in any situation. Often because they are not afraid to even feel pain. Such integrity can make someone unshakable and completely immune to fear. So in this case, you can unlearn fear by acquiring integrity.

[scameter]

Yes, the fear of death can be utterly defeated. I have seen examples of this myself. It is rare though. Residues of fear and anxiety are more common.

I have seen many things, but not all are true.

Fear is usually caused by the abscence of knowledge.

Although many fears can be taught. Ironic. :D

For example, we are afraid of death because we don't know what death brings.

But does that truly matter? If I burn myself, then heal, I fear burning myself even though I know what comes afterwards just as much as I feared it before being burned.

In this case, fear can be unlearned by acquiring knowledge.

Actually, I think sentience, the knowledge of death, is part, if not all, of the problem of our fear of death.

[Smurf]

What if you don't fear death anymore? :unsure:

[scameter]

That's an extremely large "what if" my friend. :P If one doesn't fear death, or rather, if one learns to accept it entirely, one is invincible, as is said of acceptance in things such as Taoism and Zen.

[scameter]

it doesn't have to be a psychiatrist...i mean talk therapy

There's a difference?

from her i learned exacty how and when to say no in a discussion...

:D Ironic.

as a white male highly educated you are the least likley target for discrimination...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Squish]

we cannot unlearn fear because fear is not learned. However, we can disarm fear. That is done by disassociating things or events with fear.

Makes total sense, I don't know why I didn't make that association myself.... Cheesy pun intended!! :-) It was also serious at the same time. It makes a lot of sense. Fear was a bad choice of words, and a limited way of looking at it. Ever heard of Neuro-Semantics? It's all about busting these "un-useful" associations, and creating new, more useful ones by examining the language we choose to use. Intriguing field of study.... at least to me anyway!!! :) It's one of the things I've been trying to learn about lately, and (though I'm a novice still) I've been trying to employ it here. I just hadn't realized I was until just now.... Maybe I can help by subtly working on her disassociating work from her background somehow. That might help....or get me in trouble!! :lol:

it is insidious and continuous

It is insidious with her. I'm reeling her in quite a bit. When she calms down and focuses from the different perspectives I help her eventually see, rather than from her limiting ones, she's a steam-roller of a positive force, but her "learned associations" (I like that Thomas!! Thanks!!) are definitely limiting her. At least initially....

to really be helped she needs someone who is trained in helping

Probably true, but her associations have her so "afraid" of being perceived as weak, that I doubt she'd ever go for fear of someone finding out. Catch 22 I guess.

I personally think it is impossible to unlearn fear, because it wasn't learned in the first place.
Although many fears can be taught

If it can be taught, it must be able to be learned. These two quotes are throwin' me a little Scam... :blink: :)

she most likely takes it home with her where it is also likely to be worse...when she is alone...
She's got what sounds like a very intelligent, loving husband and kids, so she's not alone!! :thumbsup: Hopefully he's as supportive as he sounds!!

[scameter]

These two quotes are throwin' me a little Scam...

:P Sorry. Fear it's self cannot be learned, but some of it's placement, such as fear of something such as drugs, can be taught; but fear of death cannot be taught or untaught.

[Smurf]

That's an extremely large "what if" my friend. If one doesn't fear death, or rather, if one learns to accept it entirely, one is invincible, as is said of acceptance in things such as Taoism and Zen.


woah that's a big assumption Scam, I don't fear death but I am not invincible? but I see what you mean, I see invincible as I could jump off a building and still live...

I think you mean that I could do anything without fear of death, not fear of death is not invincibility

Sorry. Fear it's self cannot be learned, but some of it's placement, such as fear of something such as drugs, can be taught; but fear of death cannot be taught or untaught.

fear of death can be untaught, death is a thing or event, fear is associated to it to a degree... we can associate death with something nice and "train" the mind into not fearing death, it is called classical conditioning, the conditioning of the mind

[scameter]

I see invincible as I could jump off a building and still live...

I meant that if one doesn't fear death at all, one is invincible. You could be shot in the head and be fine, because you do not fear it; you have accepted it, and are able to not fear it.

fear of death can be untaught, death is a thing or event, fear is associated to it to a degree

Fear of death is not learned, however. It is there from the beginning.

we can associate death with something nice and "train" the mind into not fearing death,

Our minds unfortunately aren't that stupid; they know instinctually that death isn't nice and isn't wanted, and thus it fears it above anything else.

[locomotive]

"Neuro-Semantics"

like instead of saying "I am not weak" saying "I am strong"? I think it would be better to learn not to respond at such words at all. It is cool to see how these things work.

[TruthSeeker]

right locomotive...for years i said 'i can't do math'...then i decided math was cool...and then i could do math...in fact i was pretty good...
Hehe... same here.... :lol:
I've used this technique with almost all my classes... B)

[Squish]

Well, Neuro-Semantics is a little more than putting a positive spin on things, it's more about setting the frames of reference that you view things from, and setting your associations to the outside world with a more constructive point of view in mind than you may have had originally.

One of the coolest examples I've read so far was of a young child living in California that was calling her mother names, and she told her if she called her that again she'd regret it. So she did, and slammed the door to her bedroom in her mother's face. Right then an earthquake hit!!!! The instant association her young mind made: Tick off Mom, and she can rock you world!!! FEAR MOM!!! 20 years later she's still not challenging her mother. A review of that situation as an adult, and with the frame of reference that her mother had nothing to do with the earthquake, could release her from her fear of challenging her mother. Putting a positive spin on it, would just mean she's happy the house didn't fall down. It doesn't fix the association, and ultimately unlearn the fear....

[scameter]

tibetan masters would not agree...read the book ...the tibetan book of living and dying by sogyal rinpoche...thomas likes that book too...

Tibetan masters of course would not agree; but that doesn't deny truth. There are philosophies ranging from saying that death is satanic and evil, to saying that to die is to be with God (in Norse mythology, for instance, with the latter); but every human who is mentally sane fears death.

[scameter]

Yes, the prospect of something they believing happening after death and the sensation of coming away from death are of course extreme, but death it's self, every human has a natural, instinctual fear of it. To not have fear is to be both unnatural and ignorant. And indeed, see? Death is a given that it is horrible, and yes birth could be the moreso of the two, but even so, it is a given that death is horrible; to not know that is essentially to have no instincts, which is impossible.

[TruthSeeker]

it is a given that birth is wonderful and death is horrible...it might very well be that being born is the more painful/frightening of the two...
True. Sometimes I question my decisions when my child starts screaming uncontrollably. But I guess he gets the chance of experiencing a lot in life... :unsure: :think:

[TruthSeeker]

I think life can be very entertaining. I love to laugh myself. When I laugh one day I feel like I accomplished that day. Just look at my avatar. It says a lot about who I am. ;)

[scameter]

Wow, the definition of discussion seems rather skewed lately.

[TruthSeeker]

oh yes that is clear...but how that applies to the topic...once again i don't follow...* ...i must be one of those 'slow' people you mentioned...*
What are you talking about? That's a direct conclusion after I said...
True. Sometimes I question my decisions when my child starts screaming uncontrollably. But I guess he gets the chance of experiencing a lot in life...
... because you said...
it is a given that birth is wonderful and death is horrible...it might very well be that being born is the more painful/frightening of the two...

Are you following the discussion at all!? :o

[locomotive]

Well, Neuro-Semantics is a little more than putting a positive spin on things, it's more about setting the frames of reference that you view things from, and setting your associations to the outside world with a more constructive point of view in mind than you may have had originally.

One of the coolest examples I've read so far was of a young child living in California that was calling her mother names, and she told her if she called her that again she'd regret it. So she did, and slammed the door to her bedroom in her mother's face. Right then an earthquake hit!!!! The instant association her young mind made: Tick off Mom, and she can rock you world!!! FEAR MOM!!! 20 years later she's still not challenging her mother. A review of that situation as an adult, and with the frame of reference that her mother had nothing to do with the earthquake, could release her from her fear of challenging her mother. Putting a positive spin on it, would just mean she's happy the house didn't fall down. It doesn't fix the association, and ultimately unlearn the fear....

hmm I see. I had in mind something I saw on tv or something. A man says I am not weak and another man pushes his hand away easy at that moment. When he says I am strong he uses more strenght.
The brain learns right? you have one association and then it changes because of something you thought for instance and you just forget that association. In brain science they say that over some time the physical associations between neurons that are responsible for the association you experience goes away.

[TruthSeeker]

Well, Neuro-Semantics is a little more than putting a positive spin on things, it's more about setting the frames of reference that you view things from, and setting your associations to the outside world with a more constructive point of view in mind than you may have had originally.

One of the coolest examples I've read so far was of a young child living in California that was calling her mother names, and she told her if she called her that again she'd regret it. So she did, and slammed the door to her bedroom in her mother's face. Right then an earthquake hit!!!! The instant association her young mind made: Tick off Mom, and she can rock you world!!! FEAR MOM!!! 20 years later she's still not challenging her mother. A review of that situation as an adult, and with the frame of reference that her mother had nothing to do with the earthquake, could release her from her fear of challenging her mother. Putting a positive spin on it, would just mean she's happy the house didn't fall down. It doesn't fix the association, and ultimately unlearn the fear....
You are obviously quite learned on the subject of pscychology. Particularly conditioning... ;)
I'm surprised such association could last so long though. Partivcularly with the introduction of logic....

[buzzlightyear1982]

I am new to the web site but I just had to put my two cents in on this subject. I do agree witht he fact that we are born with fear within our hearts and mind. However, I do think that it can overcomed...for fear is one of the many flaws that we were graced with at birth. I't is an emotion to which had to learned and expierced as we advanced though our years of learning and living. We need fear...for some fear is the very reason for their existance...and for others fear is just another emotion explessed. But no matter how you look at it fear needs us and we need fear, for if everyone learned to overcome their fears than we would be trapped within a world of hero's. I don't think I need to tell any of you that a world full of hero's with no villens is a useless world indeed.

[scameter]

I agree, and welcome to thebigview.com. :)

But, I do have to remark on something you said that truthseeker said elsewhere as well; why is fear a flaw? And, in that case, why is anything a flaw or not a flaw, and how can something truly be perfect or imperfect, beyond our perception?

[Smurf]

Because fear can lead to an undesired response

Again I say it: Fear is not learnt, it is a feeling that is conditioned to a stimulus

It is therefore possible that it can be unconditioned and there will be no more fear felt with the stimulus. There has been extensive experiments involving this very subject to prove this.

[scameter]

And again I disagree. I think fear is an inherent mental, emotional mechanism of defense that is a warning signal to avtivate anxiety of an upcoming, possibly threatening event, and that is not learned, but that reacts to the environment as it sees necessary. To unlearn fear would be to transform our entire mental construct physically. Still, I wonder why it is considered a fault or an aspect of imperfection to be fearful/to have fear. Further, is anything perfect, truly? If nothing is perfect, including what is entirely natural, then we must have gotten the idea of perfection from somewhere, namely something titled as perfect; and I do not think this is reliant on the individual, or there wouldn't be some similar aspects of what is considered perfect amongst people. I think at some time there was something all or a large majority of people considered to be perfect, and over time we have forgotten it, but have remembered what it meant/means to be perfect, and have judged thence forth accordingly.

[sonrisa]

fear isn't a flaw or a fault, it's a defense mechanism to help keeps us alive.

[scameter]

Indeed.

[buzzlightyear1982]

I disagree...fear is a flaw held within the human mind B) I think fear is an inherent mental, emotional that is a reacts to the environment, however, the child is just inherentinh the reaction from one of it'sparents. Don't get me wrong I truely believe that fear is an necessary evil in our everyday lives. BUt it is still a flaw amoung our mental capasity B) Take for example those who have no fear of death or violance, those who have nothing to loose have nothing to fear. It takes a brave person to ones own life B)
Agree?

[scameter]

Not entirely no. I still have not seen any real, rational reason to believe fear is a fault. We inheret it naturally, we are required naturally to have it, and it isn't always a hinderance to society or pleasure-gain; quite the contrary, entire genres of entertainment and literature exist to simulate fear and subsequent pleasure, such as horror. If you think about it, many of the traits usually considered admirable, such as courage and bravery, can only exist if fear exists. Cowardice is feeling fear and entirely accepting it; courage is feeling fear and acting anyway; and ignorance/stupidity is not feeling fear when it is activated, and simply doing whatever, such as cutting one's self for no particular reason and feeling the fear and pain, but simply ignoring it. Without fear, we couldn't live; fear is part of what gives us the ability to live. I think it perhaps even gives us a sort of intuitional prediction ability, to unconsciously predict what would be the best course of action in a situation involving threat in which would propagate the continuance of survival. Those who have nothing to lose are still alive, and thus have something to lose. Fear will only stop being active and existant within one when one dies.

[Smurf]

And again I disagree. I think fear is an inherent mental, emotional mechanism of defense that is a warning signal to avtivate anxiety of an upcoming, possibly threatening event, and that is not learned, but that reacts to the environment as it sees necessary. To unlearn fear would be to transform our entire mental construct physically. Still, I wonder why it is considered a fault or an aspect of imperfection to be fearful/to have fear. Further, is anything perfect, truly? If nothing is perfect, including what is entirely natural, then we must have gotten the idea of perfection from somewhere, namely something titled as perfect; and I do not think this is reliant on the individual, or there wouldn't be some similar aspects of what is considered perfect amongst people.


Then what about the person who has no fear? There has to be a stimulus to invoke the fear in the first place. Thus classical conditioning is applied here.
Also that there is an inherant fear is vaguely true... give me an example of this?

I think at some time there was something all or a large majority of people considered to be perfect, and over time we have forgotten it, but have remembered what it meant/means to be perfect, and have judged thence forth accordingly.

I must disagree completely, this is just speculation without evidence; perfection stems from the human ability to advance mentally. For that we are able to understand how far we have come and that there is a pinnacle of state that is "perfect", but like you said nothing is perfect so how can we understand it :P

[Oli]

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

[buzzlightyear1982]

First I would like to address the comment left by scameter:

"and it isn't always a hinderance to society or pleasure-gain; quite the contrary, entire genres of entertainment and literature exist to simulate fear and subsequent pleasure, such as horror. If you think about it, many of the traits usually considered admirable, such as courage and bravery, can only exist if fear exists."

I think fear as a pleasure gain is quite realistic, many of you may refer to that as an act of sickness or mental, however it is what I think. An zrealistic and real example of fear as an pleasure gain would be the actions of Hitler. He inforced his hand and will over the country sides of Europe and when this no longer brought him great pleasure he then inforced that will onto his own people. The use of fear as a key motivator in movies is interesting mainly because there is no such thing as a scary movie any more. There is nothing that you can see up on the silver screne that you cant turn on the daily news or open a news paper and see or read. So there for the "scary movie" as the medis has labled it is nothing but a scoop of reality on the snow cone of life. The only reason people flock to see it because they can control it when it's on the screne better than they can when it's happening to them. For those of you who require examples I have from my own movie collection. The Hill Side Strangler, Hostile, and Helter Sceltor B)

Now I will respond to Smurf:

"I think at some time there was something all or a large majority of people considered to be perfect, and over time we have forgotten it, but have remembered what it meant/means to be perfect, and have judged thence forth accordingly."

The only thing people are truly scared of these days are themselves B)

"Then what about the person who has no fear? There has to be a stimulus to invoke the fear in the first place. Thus classical conditioning is applied here."

For these people it is simple, you make them face themself. You make the trulu look upon themself in the mirror and see the fear in their eyes and listen to the rapid beatings of their own hearts as they gaze upon their own flaws. This will reduce any man or woman, no matter how strong or confident, to a fearing child bundled up in a corner in a matter of seconds. And before you ask yes...I am one of those who's own reflection scares the shit out of them B)

[sonrisa]

ok I'm gonna say it: Hitler was one sick dude.

and uh, isn't Buzz Lightyear Tim Allen's whacked out sicko claymation character? :D

Oli- "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

-- I don't think Franklin Roosevelt was referring to the fight or flight response when he said that. He may (or may not) have been referring to Hitler, however. B)

[scameter]

Then what about the person who has no fear?

That's impossible.

Also that there is an inherant fear is vaguely true... give me an example of this?

I didn't say that; I said that fear it's self is inherent.

I must disagree completely, this is just speculation without evidence; perfection stems from the human ability to advance mentally.

I disagree, nor do I really understand what you said. What is it you mean exactly? Perfection stems from the human ability to gain knowledge? And yes it is speculation, but everything imagined is speculative, as well as is most of philosophical thought.

For that we are able to understand how far we have come and that there is a pinnacle of state that is "perfect", but like you said nothing is perfect so how can we understand it

That's the true question, and it is why I speculated as I did.

I don't think Franklin Roosevelt was referring to the fight or flight response when he said that. He may (or may not) have been referring to Hitler, however.

I think he was making a general philosophical statement.

[sonrisa]

no, he was trying to forstall some kind of general panic.

[scameter]

Perhaps, but what he said was still a general philosophical statement. It was meant for inspiration, but it was philosophical nonetheless.

[buzzlightyear1982]

To scameter, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying so why don't you tell me exactly it is about my theorys you don't understand. Then I'll try to break them down so you can understand my point of view B)

To sonrisa, yes Buzz lightyeart was Tim Allans charactor, but he wasn't a "whacked out sicko." He had troubles facing reality in an realistic eviroment. Also Hitler wasn't "one sick dude" he was a genious in his own way. He brainwashed an entire nation in believing their own thoughts were wrong and that the only right path in life was his own. His only mistake was panicing at the last minute and turning on the very people whio put him in power. Given anthor time and another place he could have been another Mother Torrisa. And by the way, the Cincinnati Kid was a boxer and a 1965 movie B)

[sonrisa]

yep, Steve McQueen :)


now, Hitler as Mother Teresa?!!?

would you care to elaborate on that one please?

[scameter]

<_< Why do you think that?

[buzzlightyear1982]

Your so quick to judge Hitler for his actions...but think about in a differant point of view...he was only doing what he was taught to do. I f he grew up in a loving, non-controling enviroment...don't you think he might of turned out to be differant? Or do you believe that his fate was to always become a murder?

[sonrisa]

Hitler was taught to murder 6,000,000 people?

or do you mean that Hitler was taught to hate, & the murders were a manifestation of that hate? If I'm seeing correctly where you're going with this, then it's possibe Hilter would of turned out different if he had been raised in a different environment. I didn't realize you were comparing Hitler to Mother Teresa in that context.

otoh, I was taught in history class that Hitler had meglomania, which is a sickness.... ;)

[scameter]

I think Hitler was in a controlling environment, but unlike many determinists, I would not title this as being the only cause for his aggression. I believe people are affected by environmental influences, but I also believe that through realization, they choose, and I think Hitler knew very well what he was doing.

[sonrisa]

oh he knew alright, he spelt the whole thing out in Mein Kampf

[Smurf]

That's impossible.

Nothing is impossible Scam


I didn't say that; I said that fear it's self is inherent.

ok then give me an example of how this works?

I disagree, nor do I really understand what you said. What is it you mean exactly? Perfection stems from the human ability to gain knowledge? And yes it is speculation, but everything imagined is speculative, as well as is most of philosophical thought.


I meant that with the ability to acquire information there is the ability to speculate perfection, an ability to recognize that there is a pinnacle to achievement, perfect.

[Smurf]

Your so quick to judge Hitler for his actions...but think about in a differant point of view...he was only doing what he was taught to do. I f he grew up in a loving, non-controling enviroment...don't you think he might of turned out to be differant? Or do you believe that his fate was to always become a murder?

I agree completely, but this could work with everyone else, although it is with hiensight that we can apply fate to the situation. But true if one could reverse time then one could change circumstances, but this is a very unstable thing time travel

[scameter]

Nothing is impossible Scam

In the context of what I was saying is impossible it is.

ok then give me an example of how this works?

We are all born with the ability to feel fear, and it is inevitable.

I meant that with the ability to acquire information there is the ability to speculate perfection, an ability to recognize that there is a pinnacle to achievement, perfect.

But not all ideas of perfect are about achievement. To some, the sky is perfect; to others, a huge chemical formula is perfect. But, I speculate that there was possibly some point in the past when we came into contact with something objectively perfect, forgot it consciously but not unconsciously, and have based perfection on it ever since. Every living thing can acquire information. But not all are conscious, much less to have some concept of perfection.

[buzzlightyear1982]

Sonrisa is correct...that was the direction I was going!

"I believe people are affected by environmental influences, but I also believe that through realization, they choose, and I think Hitler knew very well what he was doing."

scameter brings up a very good point! However I don't believe it applies in this situation. If you take a look back in history Hitler was born into an controling enviroment. So there for he was dealing with the realization of what he was exposed to as a child. So as a father of a two-year-old I know that when a child see's an adult do something they think it's right. So as a child Hitler saw these adults do exactly what he did and so there for he thought it was right. He was just following the examples he grew up with. Besides like Sonrisa clearly pointed out he had meglomania. So I don't believe he know what he was doing was wrong at all. Maybe he realized what he was doing after the fact...but don't think he was consoiusly aware of if during the event B)

[scameter]

That is not the realization to which I speak; your version of it there is the knowledge of, not realization of. He realized his childhood was controlled extremely, but he also realized many other things, and chose many things. Not all people are entirely determined to be something particularly by their childhood, to disagree with Freud. For instance, no one in my father's family cared anything about knowledge, nor did the kids in his school; quite the contrary, all in his family either shunned him, entirely neglected him, treated him abusively, and did drugs and got drunk right in front of him. But, he loved knowledge, and wished to have it; thus, through his ambition which had absolutely no reason to exist, he is now an extremely intelligent and wise man. Hitler knew very well what he was doing when he had those Jews slaughtered, and when he invaded the other European nations; he knew what he was saying when he said his mother died of cancer on purpose in order to deter him from his goals. He also knew how to manipulate people and situations to suit his ambitions, such as being elected democratically and then using his situation and manipulation abilities to become a dictator, through the very eyes and wishes of his German people. I believe, even with his disorder, he was quite aware of all the things I described above; a person unaware of them wouldn't be able to do them at all, much less unconsciously. I'm sorry, but I do not think people who are teens or higher ever do anything they do not know they're doing, unless they're entirely mentally retarded or physically disabled, or both. And even then, people like Stephen Hawking know exactly what they're doing, sometimes even better than others.

[sonrisa]

jeez Buzz, defense lawyers would love you. My client grew up in a controlling environment, your honor, he was just doing what he was taught. He saw grownups do it & thought it was the right thing to do. He didn't realize what he was doing until after the fact, your honor, he wasn't consciously aware of it during the event....

c'mon, at some point personal responsibility has to kick in

[buzzlightyear1982]

Can a person who has never had to take responsibilty for anything be espected to suddenly know how? Its like asking an cashier to disarm an nuclear bomb...impossible B)

[scameter]

Not entirely impossible. Intuition is always a factor. :)

[sonrisa]

nah, Buzz has a point. Actually, he has explained dubya.

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Intuition is always a factor"

By definition intuition is:

The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.

Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.

A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.

Maybe I'm just being stubbern but I fail to see how intuition has anything to do with it B)

[scameter]

From your definition, could one not intuitively disarm a nuclear bomb, if their intuitive perception was clear enough?

[buzzlightyear1982]

"if their intuitive perception was clear enough? "

First, one needs to be exposed to intuitive perceptions, however, you first need to be exposed to intuitive perception in the first place. Hitler was in no way exposed to intuitive perception or even the possibility of one. And it is not my definition...it came from dictionary.com B)

[scameter]

I don't think intuition is something one is exposed to; I think it is inherent.

[sonrisa]

I've heard that too. We are all born with intuition, but it's more developed in some people than in others.

[scameter]

Or rather, some are more clear in their reception of it's gifts.

[buzzlightyear1982]

A person may be born with intuition but if they never use it than it's no good what so ever, unless some how we use it unconscouisly B)

[scameter]

I think we definitely use it unconsciously, i.e. we do not consciously "use" it. It uses it, and we receive it's uses and gifts.

[buzzlightyear1982]

So in some sence you could say that intuition uses us, we don't use it B)

[scameter]

Entirely.

[buzzlightyear1982]

There must be some way to block it out or turn it off B)

[scameter]

Yes, to rely entirely on thought. But, I believe that even then we occasionally receive it's gifts.

[buzzlightyear1982]

To rely on ones own thoughts purely is to sentence one self to his own death-Buzzlightyear1982

[scameter]

Definitely.

[buzzlightyear1982]

They often say that there nothing to fear but fear itself, however, I think one's own thoughts are the only thing that one should fear B)

[Smurf]

To rely on ones own thoughts purely is to sentence one self to his own death-Buzzlightyear1982

why?

They often say that there nothing to fear but fear itself, however, I think one's own thoughts are the only thing that one should fear

so you're saying that we are all living in a constant state of fear?

[buzzlightyear1982]

"why?"

Because in your own thoughts omly you know what runs though your head. The deep dark and primal thoughts that makes us who we are are some of the most scariest thoughts there is. Our childhood is what defines who we are and why, for some just to remember that is the most freinting thing of all. It all boils down to there is a killer in everyone and those thoughts and desieres live within our deepest thoughts B)

"so you're saying that we are all living in a constant state of fear?"

That is exactly what I'm say B)

[Smurf]

That is exactly what I'm say

like it :D

Because in your own thoughts omly you know what runs though your head. The deep dark and primal thoughts that makes us who we are are some of the most scariest thoughts there is. Our childhood is what defines who we are and why, for some just to remember that is the most freinting thing of all. It all boils down to there is a killer in everyone and those thoughts and desieres live within our deepest thoughts

There is a killer in everyone, but there is also a pacifist aswell...
They are only scary if you wish them to be, I don't think that fear kills people, but its consequences do, there is a choice to let it consume you or to crush it under your heel. I suppose it is a matter of willpower in the end <_<

[buzzlightyear1982]

"There is a killer in everyone, but there is also a pacifist aswell..."

I do agree with your theory that everyone has a killer inside of them but not that everyone has pcifist. The will to determin right and wrong is in everyone as well, however, to the that will is also part your free will. For example, see the movie "The Bad Seed" and I think you'll know what I'm talking about B)

"there is a choice to let it consume you or to crush it under your heel."

The will to let it consume you is the differance between knowing right and wrong and what seperates desirable aquantises from the undesirable ones B)

[Smurf]

I do agree with your theory that everyone has a killer inside of them but not that everyone has pcifist. The will to determin right and wrong is in everyone as well, however, to the that will is also part your free will. For example, see the movie "The Bad Seed" and I think you'll know what I'm talking about

Free will hey? well I don't agree with this so this could affect the argument, damn philosophy too complicated at sometimes.
I only argue that if your principle that everyone has a killer in them then everyone has the ability to be a pacifist as well, or the opposite of a killer... Are you saying that everyone is already a killer? <_<

The will to let it consume you is the differance between knowing right and wrong and what seperates desirable aquantises from the undesirable ones

Yeah, interesting, so yeah...

the willpower comes from the morals side of things... but also the ethics

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Are you saying that everyone is already a killer?"

Pablo picasso once said that "anything you can imagine can be real," So there for if you can imagine yourself a killer...then you could possible become a killer B)

[Smurf]

Pablo picasso once said that "anything you can imagine can be real," So there for if you can imagine yourself a killer...then you could possible become a killer

But you could also imagine to be a pacifist and become one B)

Back to the fear unlearning subject thing

Go to Psychology for the answer, it lies within conditioning. Stimulus and response. Learning, fear is another response that can be unlearned. Little Albert and the Rabbit, an experiment that involves learning fear. (http://www.psychology.sbc.edu/Little%20Albert.htm)

[scameter]

You said possibly, buzz. Not that definitely everyone who can conceptually invision themselves as a killer physically becomes one from the mental determination to be one, as is required to become one. Everyone has the capacity to be one, but that does not mean everyone is. That would be like saying everyone is an astronaut, because we can conceptually invision being one. If that was true, everyone is everything, so we have no where to advance. lol

[buzzlightyear1982]

"But you could also imagine to be a pacifist and become one"

True, however, with the growing popularity of violance in video, television, and movvies it's not very likely. Each year that passes we become an even more violent nation and I dn't see it stopping any time soon B)

[Smurf]

True, however, with the growing popularity of violance in video, television, and movvies it's not very likely. Each year that passes we become an even more violent nation and I dn't see it stopping any time soon

yeah your nation :P
I don't know about Australia though, I think we're just too lazy to do anything

[buzzlightyear1982]

Then I need to go to Australia...it will be refreshing to see people who arn't out for each others blood B)

[sonrisa]

I thought Californians were pretty laid back

[Smurf]

Then I need to go to Australia...it will be refreshing to see people who arn't out for each others blood

You'll still see the selfishness that accompanies mankind though ...

[scameter]

Everywhere.

[Smurf]

In the toilet

[buzzlightyear1982]

California is screwed up...were the most expensive state in the united states because we elect actors for political office and then get mad when they don't keep their promises B)

"You'll still see the selfishness that accompanies mankind though"

I completely exspect to...in fact I wopuld be disapointed if I didn't. However, the question I want to know is what levelwill I find it? Will it be on the same level or a lower or higher level?

[sonrisa]

Buzz-- California is screwed up

-- so? why should y'all be any different from the rest of the country?

Buzz-- we're the most expensive state in the united states

-- I heard somewhere that California has the 5th largest economy in the world. Could there be a correlation there?

Buzz-- we elect actors for political office

-- politicians, actors.... same difference B)

ps, if you don't like Ah-nold :D terminate him :D

[sahyo]

"You'll still see the selfishness that accompanies mankind though"

I completely exspect to...in fact I wopuld be disapointed if I didn't.



would explain?

[Smurf]

I think that it was meant that for humanity to be without selfishness would be an unusual exception...

[buzzlightyear1982]

" I think that it was meant that for humanity to be without selfishness would be an unusual exception... "

Thats correct...and not only an unusual exception but a scary one as well B)

[Smurf]

I agree, :D

'tis unfortunate this certain curse that has befallen the race of humans

[buzzlightyear1982]

The human race brought it upon themselves B)

[Smurf]

^ But they didn't have any control over it, we're talking about evolution right?

[buzzlightyear1982]

Evolution was our begaining...our starting point...ever since then we've been screwing it up from there B)

[Smurf]

Nothing is perfect B)

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Nothing is perfect..."

Yes, but we've turned it into an art form... B)

[Smurf]

Well, the striving to ascertain Perfection as the art form

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Well, the striving to ascertain Perfection as the art form"

Well, at lease we have a goal... :hahaha:

[Smurf]

true, but if we'll achieve it is not possible

[buzzlightyear1982]

Perfection is nothing of an ideal created from our own perceptions of the wayt things are. Untill we all decide on one concrete definition of what perfection is I don't think you have anything to worry about B)

[scameter]

Then good luck. Concrete definitions cannot exist. :)

[Smurf]

Ahh no not the discussion about absolute or relative truths ahh! *runs away*

Scam, not concrete, but different point-of-views

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Then good luck. Concrete definitions cannot exist..."

:thumbsup:

"Scam, not concrete, but different point-of-views..."

The only thing we have as human beings is our differant p[oints of views :thumbsup:

[scameter]

True buzz. And they are only ours; they're not definite objectively.

[Gesiwuj]

I'm sure chemists could make an artificial hormone to reduce fear - although obviously moral stuff (eg: over-confidence).

[buzzlightyear1982]

"I'm sure chemists could make an artificial hormone to reduce fear - although obviously moral stuff "

They do that same exact thing with hypnosis, only it's a temperary state of mind, and this chemical your talking about would be permanate. Besides fear is one of our charactor definind qualities, why would you want to take that away... :think:

[MidnightSun]

Yea, leave my fear alone :P

[Brahmanyan]

Yes, We can "unlearn" Fear once we understand the root cause for that Fear. Because there is no fear in the Present, fear is caused by the Mind by thoughts on the past or imagination of the future.

[scameter]

I disagree. Fear is an emotion, and as emotions are reactive, they are within the present, just like instinctual actions.

[Brahmanyan]

I do agree Emotions are reactive, but Emotions are created by disturbed mind. When mind is at peace in the present where is the question of reaction. Mind again is the collection of thoughts. If there is no thought there is no mind. Thoughts are always on the past or future and not in the present.

[scameter]

Thought definitely. But emotion and thought are seperate, just like instincts. As you say, mind is thought, and once thought is gone, there is no-mind, and wu wei can occur, where instincts are allowed to take full hold.