Cloning

[Kether]

Some of the greatest friction concerning the ethics of science at the moment surrounds the issue of cloning. People seem to think that the process of nuclear transplantation creates a creature identical to the parent - this is seriously misguided. What clones that have been produced thus far have not even been genetically identical to their 'parents'; and - as every sensible person knows - even if they were, immensely important environmental factors are not controlled by the process.

There were 277 failed attempts to clone a sheep, before the famous Dolly was created. They were not pleasant. Dolly herself was seriously defective. We must ask ourselves: do we want to create children like this? What purpose could it serve? Farming human beings for their organs?

It is irritating that much of the opposition to cloning has come from the church - arguments about 'playing god' that are based on a few archaic scribbles. Were it possible to create healthy human beings through genetic engineering, who could be allowed to live real lives, then I would not oppose cloning. But the fact remains that we cannot, and perfecting the process - if that is possible - would come at the cost of hundreds of suffering children.

[Smurf]

I don't object to it,
but why do they have to waste money on something that isn't really getting us anywhere, wasting perhaps millions cloning a sheep?? one wonders...

that the money could have been spent better, on starving children, or homeless people, or medical research?

[scameter]

that the money could have been spent better, on starving children, or homeless people, or medical research?

The exact same thing that drove people to want to clone in the first place, to want money, and to want to have power: greed.

[Kether]

I don't object to it
You don't object to the conscious creation of creatures - including humans - who will live their lives in agony because of birth defects?
I agree that cloning does not serve any real purpose, and of course the money could be better spent - moreover, we must take the ethical ramifications of cloning into account.

And Scameter,
How does cloning satisfy our greed?

[scameter]

Our greed for knowledge, our greed to know that we can clone and be above and/or as good as nature, our greed for economic benefits from cloning...

[Kether]

What do you think the economic benefits from cloning are?

I don't think that the greed for knowledge is a bad thing at all, unless it leads, unavoidably, to suffering. And by that I don't mean the 'suffering' of an ignorant person who has seen, and not liked, the truth - we should carry on regardless of that kind of 'suffering', because ultimately, that person or society will be improved by knowledge - I mean real suffering, like the suffering of a clone.

[scameter]

I will admit, however, that for some reason, when I was looking online at pictures of the cloning of a dog named Snuppy, it just felt....wrong. Like, the dog wasn't actually...there, or something. I don't know...it's difficult to explain. But, it does feel wrong; logic or no logic, it feels wrong. And I don't think it's because of what I've learned or been taught, because I've never really heard any expressed views on the subject except a couple by some fundamentalist church-goers, and I take nothing they say seriously. And, it wasn't a thought; it *felt* wrong.

[scameter]

What do you think the economic benefits from cloning are?

More people to work and to use as parts to sell to medical companies, and that could be programmed genetically to work more efficiently.

I don't think that the greed for knowledge is a bad thing at all, unless it leads, unavoidably, to suffering. And by that I don't mean the 'suffering' of an ignorant person who has seen, and not liked, the truth - we should carry on regardless of that kind of 'suffering', because ultimately, that person or society will be improved by knowledge - I mean real suffering, like the suffering of a clone.

Ah. So, essentially, "truth" is entirely objective and beyond subjectivity. Why is suffering of a clone bad? If it furthers knowledge, however vain that knowledge is, why is it wrong?

[Kether]

Because the fulfillment and actualisation of as many people as possible is the most ethically important thing, more important than knowledge - though knowledge can be a means to that end, and is in fact an essential one.

[scameter]

the fulfillment and actualisation of as many people as possible is the most ethically important thing

Why?

[MidnightSun]

I mean real suffering, like the suffering of a clone.

Yes, clone has its own soul.

[scameter]

That we created? And, are you implying that it takes a soul to suffer physically?

[Smurf]

You don't object to the conscious creation of creatures - including humans - who will live their lives in agony because of birth defects?


well if they invest enough money and do it right then there won't be birth defects... and there hasn't been this horror yet has there?

it *felt* wrong.

just like death?

I don't think that the greed for knowledge is a bad thing at all, unless it leads, unavoidably, to suffering. And by that I don't mean the 'suffering' of an ignorant person who has seen, and not liked, the truth - we should carry on regardless of that kind of 'suffering', because ultimately, that person or society will be improved by knowledge - I mean real suffering, like the suffering of a clone.

all greed leads to suffering eventually, the imbalance presented by the want and taking of other's things creates reprocussions...

That we created? And, are you implying that it takes a soul to suffer physically?

a computer does not suffer, it has no soul... a soul is an extension of the psyche, AI etc all of that... you take a hammer to a fridge, does it cringe in pain?

[scameter]

well if they invest enough money and do it right then there won't be birth defects... and there hasn't been this horror yet has there?

I'm sure there has been.

just like death?

Very much.

all greed leads to suffering eventually, the imbalance presented by the want and taking of other's things creates reprocussions...

Karma?

a computer does not suffer, it has no soul... a soul is an extension of the psyche, AI etc all of that... you take a hammer to a fridge, does it cringe in pain?

Then suffering is only physical, it is simply the body's reaction to a pain-causing environmental stimulus? That doesn't seem very spiritual to me; seems only biological.

[Smurf]

but it is the spirit's job to interpret that data...

Karma?

sort of... yeah, but it doesn't necessarily come back on the person who is greedy?

[scameter]

but it is the spirit's job to interpret that data...

But the data is biological.

sort of... yeah, but it doesn't necessarily come back on the person who is greedy?

Not necessarily. Or even if it does, the fact that karma is the imprint of the action of an individual on their psyche and that that carries on, and can be good or evil sounds similar to your view.

[Smurf]

But the data is biological.

I know that, and it is the spirit's job to interpret the data, therefore being the important turning point in the equation :P

Not necessarily. Or even if it does, the fact that karma is the imprint of the action of an individual on their psyche and that that carries on, and can be good or evil sounds similar to your view.

ahh now I see what you mean, his conscience will get the better of him?

[scameter]

I know that, and it is the spirit's job to interpret the data, therefore being the important turning point in the equation

Interpret it into what? Wouldn't that be the mind's job?

ahh now I see what you mean, his conscience will get the better of him?

Hmm...somewhat, although it is not really his per se. It is karma. When his action imprints upon his psyche, it also reverberates and imprints onto existence. His choice is what matters. And because time is circular, it will return. And until his karma is liberated and cleared of karma, he cannot be enlightened, and ultimately, cannot achieve nirvana.

[Kether]

All greed leads to suffering eventually
The 'greed' for knowledge is not normal greed - in fact, 'greed for knowledge' is essentially a metaphor. In acquiring knowledge, we are not taking something from others; we are essentially processing and remembering data in very complex ways.
well if they invest enough money and do it right then there won't be birth defects... and there hasn't been this horror yet has there?
'Doing it right' will almost inevitably entail trial and error - and the errors will be birth defects. 'This horror' has not occurred with humans because human cloning has not yet been attempted, but if it were, there would almost certainly be birth defects. The lesson of trying to clone a sheep has taught us that.

[scameter]

The 'greed' for knowledge is not normal greed - in fact, 'greed for knowledge' is essentially a metaphor. In acquiring knowledge, we are not taking something from others; we are essentially processing and remembering data in very complex ways.

Satisfying curiosity. It is when we attempt to apply this knowledge arrogantly, and in an attempt to enforce our wills on others, that it becomes negative and disharmonious.

human cloning has not yet been attempted

They have cloned a human embryo. But then to be honest, why clone? I see absolutely no benefit to it.

[buzzlightyear1982]

The 'greed' for knowledge is not normal greed "

Isn't greed an norman desire?
How do you measure norman?