Ordaining

[ghuber]

Hello everyone.

I would like your legitimate opinion about this dilemma.

I have recently returned to North America following an intensive year studying and practicing Buddhist principles in Thailand and India. I am 24, recently graduated, and at the point where I feel I must make a major decision regarding my life direction.

While abroad, I spent quite a lot of time in and around monastaic and/or meditative environments and people. I met and lived with a community of Thais in Chiang Rai for some time through a meditation retreat at a nearby Wat. The growth I experienced during this time was profound. It gave me more hope for contribution in this direction than I have ever experienced, especially in constrast to my North American background.

In returning, I thought I would be apply to readily apply those experiences here toward a positive end. The change within me has been wonderful and pronounced... but as I have now discovered, also quite at odds with my "old life" and goals (career, lifestyle, former personality, compatibility with people, and so on). I have become quite depressed since returning to the pressures and faster pace of Western living, and its many ideals that I no longer support. I have invested a lot of time and effort in distancing myself from them to learn how to undo and move beyond them. Reconsciling the difference has proven to be very difficult, if not impossible.

As a young man supposed to be starting his career, I don't know what to do. To simply proceed as I planned before requires ignoring and actively trying to forget all that I have seen and done since. To forsake that altogether is equally frightening. In the midst of this existential paralysis, I have been working here for 6 months, earning the money for the "next step". I have "enough" now. But I do not know what or where this is.

I have considered many options, ranging from exceedingly orthadox (getting more education, getting a good job, getting married, getting rich) to exceedingly unorthadox (moving to Alaska, voluntarily becoming homeless, joining the army, getting a sex change). I have given serious consideration to every option that has arisen in my mind, no matter how absurd. I have tried to mentally test each possibility... But so far, none have set themselves concretely.

I am now strongly considering going back to Thailand and ordaining as a monk.

I am seeking a fertile, supporting environment which will help facilitate and accomodate this process of growth, so that these changes are not for waste, and the contribution of my self can add strength to a worthy cause. I am apprehensive about my ability to fully integrate into the monastaic lifestyle. Yet, in comparsion to my apprehension about my ability to function in the environment outside of it, that seems minimal.

My family feels strongly against this. They feel that it is a "waste", "running away", "brainwashing" and "foolish". They feel I should utilize my talents, education and abilities here, or elsewhere. I too would like to see my contributions be readily applied -- But I have so far failed to find an appropiate function to do so here, or elsewhere.

Any ideas?

The options I currently see are: wait longer, or try harder.


My "old" friends are largely unable to understand the depth to which these changes have affected my capacity to function "normally" according average North American standards and practice.

My "new" friends are spread across the world, very far away and inaccessible.

I have tried to "Get over it", but there is nothing to "Get over". This is just me being who I am now. To try and act as I did before, react with the feelings as I did before, is impossible... like trying to be a child again. Short of severe delusion or neurological trauma, I believe we can only move forward from who we were to who we are and will become.

This is an open appeal to anyone who has gone through similiar experiences and found a solution for them.

Please help!

graham.

[locomotive]

you are seeking something to do no? go do something you want. I would advice thinking up a life that you would like to have with different things in them. Actually I can't give you advice because I don't know what your problem is. What did those monks do to you?

[Thomas Knierim]

Graham,

At the point where you are now, you have maximum freedom of choice. This situation is probably unique in your life. Later when you have made choices and possibly spent effort and time in walking down one or another path, change is harder.

If you feel that a monastic life suits you then -by all means- you should ordain as a monk now. The good thing is that you already have an idea what the monastic life actually looks like. Many Westerners come to Asia with a misty-eyed view of Buddhist monasteries and they are bound to be disappointed by reality. If you already spent a month in a Thai monastery then you know what it is like.

The greatest Buddhist teachers and scholars all ordained early in their life. At your age, much can be achieved. On the other hand, if you should later find out that you don't like to be a monk, you can disrobe and return to a "normal" life. Even if you already spent a few years as a monk that shouldn't keep you from starting a career at age 26, 28 or 30.

The other way round it will probably not work. If you start a career now, then you are "on your way up" at age 30 and you cannot afford and are not likely to pack in your job, because it means that you have to throw away several years of work and create a career gap.

What is more, the experience you made, and the resulting changes, which are called 'disenchantment' in Buddhism are probably irreversible. If superficial pleasures, career, money, material achievements, parties and girls don't mean that much to you anymore, it is very unlikely that they will in the future.

If you come to Thailand, please feel free to contact me. I have recently moved to Chiang Mai which is quite close to Chiang Rai. Chiang Mai has many marvellous temples. Have you ever been to Doi Suthep? They have a foreign/English-speaking sangha.

Cheers, Thomas

[locomotive]

but you could find something interesting in them right? or are you now in the state of mind that you want to be a farmer? no disrespect here.

[MidnightSun]

Yay! I want to Thailand now :P

[seeker]

i totally believe that if you really wish to end the suffering of this never ending cycle and to reach nirvana or enlightenment you must become a monk so really it comes down to what your priorities are lol hope that a helpful way of looking at it

i also have a question i am a liver transplant patient and take medicine twice a day every day if i were to be ordained as a monk which i am thinking of doing in the near future not being old enough quite yet would the monestary be able or willing to suply with that medicine being that id no longer be living in canada getting it for free

[MidnightSun]

Thats a good question,i hope Thomas will take a look at it.

[Thomas Knierim]

seeker: would the monestary be able or willing to suply with that medicine being that id no longer be living in canada getting it for free

It depends. Unlike in places like Burma, Laos or Cambodia, in Thailand most types of medicines can be procured easily. They are not free, but still much cheaper than in the West. If you stay for a limited time at a temple you would probably have to bring your own supply. If you should stay permanently then it can be arranged with the abbot.

Cheers, Thomas

[seeker]

thank you very much for your answering of my previous question.....now i pose another......so say you tell your family your traditional atheist canadian or american family that you are moving to thailand or wherever renouncing them and everything else to become a buddhist monk.

if say they couldnt or didnt want to go their whole lives without ever seeing you again being that you renounced them does it mean they cant visit you or you cant visit them?

i know of arguments for either like if they visit or you them it shows you havent fully let go of your worldly ties......but also did the buddha not go back and visit his wife and daughter?.....and doesnt it say in well i dont know the name of the text that we should take care of our parents for all they did for you

and if they can visit could friends also too and how would this work if so?

[Thomas Knierim]

seeker: so say you tell your family your traditional atheist canadian or american family that you are moving to thailand or wherever renouncing them and everything else to become a buddhist monk.

You do not renounce your family and friends by becoming a monk, but it usually means that you put a distance between yourself and your previous social circle. In Asia, the entry into monkhood generally requires the consent of your parents. You will be asked if you have their approval by the senior monks before ordination, and if you don't have it they might discourage ordination. The reason for this is that you are karmically connected to your family and if you leave behind grieved and lonely parents, this would constitute a significant demerit.

seeker: does it mean they cant visit you or you cant visit them?

No, of course your friends and family can visit you anytime. You visiting friends and family will be somewhat more complicated, but not impossible. If you go back to Canada to visit people, you would have to stay in a monastery during your visit. Due to the geographical distance such visits will probably not be very frequent.

seeker: i know of arguments for either like if they visit or you them it shows you havent fully let go of your worldly ties.

It depends. Once you become a monk, your role changes. It's not like in the old days. You don't visit your friends or family just to eat, drink, talk and be merry. You have a function that goes beyond common social exchange.

Cheers, Thomas

[Dre_Pais]

Hello, Graham.

When I read your words I couldn’t help but feel a lot of empathy, because I found myself in a similar situation a few months ago.

I went to a Zen monastery in France (I’m from Portugal) for just 2 months and a half. Despite of the short period of time, the experience was rather deep and it uprooted for good my already feeble desire to follow a “conventional” social life. When I came back, all my dreams and life projects have been changed, now playing much more of a secondary role on my mind and I was (and I still am in a certain way) completely disappointed with worldly life. Everything collapsed, except the wish to fulfill my inner purpose, my spiritual journey.

I also thought I could integrate the new found inner depth in my regular life, be a “light” in the dark night of society, but it is rather difficult to accomplish that – unless our practice has grown really strong. So I realized that would be my only way out – to develop my Zen practice to its utmost level.

What did I do then? I started to search for alternatives, because I wanted to return to monastic life, now more seriously and actively. I searched and the perfect spot came up, almost out of the blue. Now I’ll be going to Japan, for a Rinzai Zen monastery for at least on year of training. The possibility of becoming a monk doesn’t fright me anymore. I realized nothing else is as worthy as the Bodhisattva path.

I’m also 24, graduated 2 years ago, and I kind of gathered enough right now to make that change in my life. So our situation it is not that different.
____
“As a young man supposed to be starting his career, I don't know what to do. To simply proceed as I planned before requires ignoring and actively trying to forget all that I have seen and done since. To forsake that altogether is equally frightening.”
_____

I was also supposed to be starting my career, getting rich or dye trying, and so on, but for me it was very easy to discard all of that – it’s all completely void of all meaning now – although it may be difficult to deal with family and friends’ different opinions.

To proceed as planned it’s unimaginable in my opinion. That would be a “spiritual” murder, denying your inner desire to accomplish something deeper and meaningful, quieting the voice inside you asking for peace. To abandon your “old” life altogether it may be frightening too, but it’s a meaningful and wholehearted endeavor. You are frightened because you are changing your life, not because you are ruining or destroying it. On the contrary, the changes could be for the better – with all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas helping you on the background, that’s for sure.

Becoming a monk it’s a tough decision, a little bit like getting married. Is it the path of my life? Will I be willing to follow it until death do we part? But just like in a marriage, we can always withdraw. Thomas is right about the timing for making that choice – maybe it’s better now than after some years of business working – but in life nothing’s for granted, so you can well start working and latter, no matter what happens, still be capable of changing your life into monastic life. Nonetheless, it will probably be much more difficult and you would be denying what your heart is telling you right now.

So don’t be afraid. Like a Brazilian author says in is book “Alchemist”, “when somebody wants something really hard, the whole universe is there supporting you”. Trust life and life will trust you and show a way out.

_______
”My family feels strongly against this. They feel that it is a "waste", "running away", "brainwashing" and "foolish". They feel I should utilize my talents, education and abilities here, or elsewhere. I too would like to see my contributions be readily applied -- But I have so far failed to find an appropiate function to do so here, or elsewhere.”
_______

Your family hasn’t been through what you have. They cannot possibly know the profound change made possible with such an opening of the mind-heart. The only “waste", "running away", "brainwashing" and "foolish" thing to do is to keep going on in such an insane society, pretending that everything will be fine in the end. Like Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of sanity to be well adjusted to an insane society”.

I know it’s hard when no one seems to understand what we’re trying to do or achieve, or when we talk of a different world, built on love and compassion. But we all know that the “leaders” and “pioneers” are seldom understood and supported. Not trying to say that we are leaders of anything, but when in comparison to others we think and act differently, we cannot expect that much of a support.

About your talents, education and abilities, what better field to put them in use than the field of Self-Realization and Self-Discovery? What better contribution can you give to the world, except that of your own deep peace and compassion?

_______
”I have tried to "Get over it", but there is nothing to "Get over". This is just me being who I am now. To try and act as I did before, react with the feelings as I did before, is impossible... “
_______

Yes, I think so too. It is like a man trying to unlearn the language he speaks for several years now, or trying to forget how to walk. If you have reached that level of awareness, you cannot pretend to be blind to it. That would be fooling yourself.

An American friend I met in the Zen monastery told me 2 very important things: 1) Never compare your inside with everybody else’s outsides and; 2) Just do the next right thing. What’s the next “right” thing for you? Forget your life as a whole or where you want to be in 10 years now. Just focus on the next step. What feels right and natural for you? What feels good for you inside (forget what other people’s life may look like from the outside)?

Well, I hope I was helpful in any way. Please, do not forget that this is just MY opinion. My life, my mind and my self are completely different from yours (at least under a certain perspective…), so trying to copy or adjust ourselves to others’ perspectives is always deceiving and dangerous, I believe.

However, my opinion is very clear: there’s no higher purpose in Life than to discover ourselves, to find out you we truly are, to realize that state of inner perfection and stability that we are all capable of. And there’s no greater gift to the world than to achieve that state of tranquility and loving kindness for the benefit of all beings. We can become a lot of things in our lives – a plumber, a business man or a famous artist -, but I definitely rather be a Buddha! What about you?

A lotus to you, my Buddha friend.

André

[redraven]

Two points:

1. Being a monk is very good. It will have its own problems but it is a cleaner, better life.
2. My only caution is not to run away from your current problems and hide in the Monastery. My advice is to wait until you are well-adjusted here, before you go there.

A third point:

I'm totally full of shit sometimes and you need to follow your internal compass. I recommend praying to Lord Amitabha for guidance, and not trusting me.

[______]

I trust you RR! :D

You're not as "full of shit" as you think! I think the phrase you may be looking for is "I don't know everything, get out and try it for yourself!" (Buddha's message in a very compressed nutshell!)