Men And Women

[abaris]

in one way or another woman are limited or trivilized.....it is an olympic achievement to be a truly powerful woman....the ripples you cause by doing so give rise to a lot of hostility...


I do not assign "blame" to woman. What i mean is, that men are drifters by nature. Woman are more practical and stronger. They deal with the "now", the problem at hand that which requieres immidiate action. As such they are the strong element of society.

Man are over their heads when it comes to action, they are into lofty plans and ambitious ideas. At the end they use to get lost in it. Look at the middle east, you have some old geaser's dreaming about "The Chalifate", a glorius islamic world where moronic old geasers are revered and in charge.

While they are in mosques forging schemes, their wifes are left to fend on their own, to feed the kids, and finaly the geasers them selfs. A wise man listens to his wife. Arab men are not all that wise.

The more civilized among us should have an interest in empowering arab woman. Let them show up at the mosques and remind the old geaser's that their children, lack food or clothes, or education. That would show them. You don't think?

Besides,

The Ying and the Yang.
The Lofty and the earthy.
the spirit and the belly.

Does the Tao not say:

calm the spirit and stuff the belly?
soften the ambition and toughen the resolve?

With all due respect to Lao Tsu, i do not need the Tao. I knew those things from when i was a little child. I only had to look at my mom and dad, they were and still are Ying and Yang in perfect harmony.

We were three man in the house and well, the Lioness. And my dad would call my mom that, his lioness. Me and my brother would just call her mom. Once i asked my dad if he is the Lion since mom was the Lioness. He would say no He-Lions are lazy good for nothing creatures. He rather considers him self the Work Horse.

My dad was more educated then my mom and had good ideas, but my mom was the builder, the executioner. He would suggest an ambitious goal, she would reduce it to something achievable by our means. They would agree and then proceed with the execution of the plan. They never failed. Because my mom had allways the last word. And my dad was wise enough to recognize her qualities.

So my father is if you like the source of my intellectual qualities. But my strength comes solely from my mother. I do not think that this rule applies only to me.

Therefore:

Strong woman = strong man = no violence.

[Kether]

Abaris,
Gender differences like the ones you describe are socially imposed. Intellectual pursuits have traditionally been reserved for men, while women have had to be down-to-earth, as you describe. But this is not because of some innate biological quality. This is to do with social circumstances.
Women and men should be as equal as possible. A balance between action and ambition is not to be attained through accentuating social rifts - and yes, they are rifts. Intellectual pursuits should be open to women, and it is entirely possible for men to be proactive.

[abaris]

Gender differences like the ones you describe are socially imposed. Intellectual pursuits have traditionally been reserved for men, while women have had to be down-to-earth, as you describe. But this is not because of some innate biological quality. This is to do with social circumstances.

I do not say that qualities are exclusively male or female. I rather say that there is a predisposition to be a bit better on the one or the other. I do not put the one over the other they are two equal parts of the whole.

And predispositions are not solely impossed by society. Biology is involved as well.

[abaris]

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles...article9106.asp (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9106.asp)

an interesting view on the creation of man and woman.

[Kether]

I agree that there are biological differences between men and women, but that these are not nearly as great as people believe. Besides, there is little evidence as far as I'm aware that the differences take the yin-yang form you describe.

You say that the 'male' and the 'female' are equal parts of the whole, but what of women who want to engage in lofty intellectual pursuits, or men who want to take action? You could argue that they would not want to in a society that conditions them to accept their 'place', but to create such a society would be oppressive.

[MidnightSun]

Why the hell we started new theme about woman and man if we have "battle of sexes".

[Kether]

The fact that there are and have been fewer women than men in positions of 'greatness' is because society wouldn't allow them to hold these positions.
Almost all cultures have evolved along such phallocentric lines, even if they were geographically isolated. I wonder why, or rather how, this is? Gender oppression may have existed before we diversified out of Africa, but some ancient, 'primitive' societies revered women. There are paintings in Çatal Hüyük, one of the first cities, that suggest that women dominated society. But these trends seem to have vanished in all societies by about 2000 years ago, if not earlier.

And MidnightSun, Thomas created this topic because the first few posts were actually in the Danish Caricatures thread, but were off-topic. :)

[Kether]

I don't think that males have as much trouble with the shift as you think - I certainly don't, but maybe that's because my generation has been conditioned to live with it.
But I agree - women are more empowered than ever, and men sometimes feel inadequate because of this.

[venom mama]

yes i agree.

if men just understood their place and purpose, it would be better for them.

[Kether]

What is men's "place and purpose"? Who or what dictates it?

[Smurf]

Well we do, only we have the power to change what we value in our society. In today's society Men are normally above women, unfortunately this biased society probably doesn't look good but that's just us hey? :P

[Kether]

Simone de Beauvoir pointed out that gender roles could never be different but equal, as the whole concept of difference and opposition creates an "us and them" social climate which leads to the oppression of one group, the Other, by another group, the One. In human culture man has always been portrayed the One, and woman as the Other - a mere corruption of the One.

To prevent such oppression, it is necessary for gender equality and gender similarity in all cultural constructs. Ethically, the identity of no individual or group of individuals should be defined as Other, or incomplete. Thus, there should be no ideal "place" or "role" for either men or women, just a place and role for human beings.

[Kether]

At present, men are suffering something of an identity crisis. The traditional conception of 'masculinity' was part of the oppression culture, designed to oppress the Cultural Feminine. The cultural feminine, however, is now the identity of the new empowered and liberated women, and thus is no longer a target for oppression - making the old kind of masculinity defunct. In men's culture, there seems to be a shift towards a more feminine men's culture. Maybe.

[Smurf]

and smurf enjoy it while it lasts

I don't enjoy it at all :o

I hate all of these people running around like chicken with their heads cut off and their egos in their place :angry:

[locomotive]

metrosexuals haha god I hate them :P

[Smurf]

metrosexuals haha god I hate them

Are you like the most PREJUDICE person in the universe! Such as the time you commented on your "friend" the jew who your parents who have obviously brain-washed you from the start of your life, told you to watch out?!

Thank you Psyche, I think I realise now :P :wub:

[Kether]

Why do you hate metrosexuals, Locomotive? I would have said that the traditional, sweaty, emotionally repressed alpha-male type was becoming defunct in our feminised society.

[locomotive]

They didn't brainwash me. he told me that jews keep to themselfs and can screw you over and they did plus my friends stepmom is now screwing her son! Anyway something to look out for not be prejudice about it.

metrosexuals what can I say, dump m on a farm and they will be crying like that show where they put a bunch of celebrities on a farm and let them do chores. Same bad quality could be found in girls but when they do it like that you just say a well they are girls.

[Smurf]

They didn't brainwash me. he told me that jews keep to themselfs and can screw you over and they did plus my friends stepmom is now screwing her son! Anyway something to look out for not be prejudice about it.

oh ... sorry then mate! :lol: me again duuh! :P
I must say though it did sound a bit prejudice at first...

But why did you think I was a metrosexual, the type you plonk on farms and they go practically nuts?

I must also tell you that I live on a farm. :)

[locomotive]

It wasn't adressed to you :S
I am gonna search about differences between man and women because as far as behaviour is concerned I don't see constant differences between the two genders.

[Kether]

I recommend Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex. It suggests how and why cultural gender differences have emerged.

[venom mama]

a man's place?



naked and pleasuring me.


no reason to talk
i don't listen anyways.

[Ronagon]

Recently, slithering sneak Maureen Dowd published a bowel-movement of a book entitled Are Men Necessary?

As a follow-up to this steaming loaf of nonfiction, I will be publishing my own book entitled:

Are Ungrateful Parasite Bitches Necessary?

[Ronagon]

a man's place?



naked and pleasuring me.


no reason to talk
i don't listen anyways.

I can only imagine what your extent of overconfidence and sloth has produced, in terms of physical reality...

I'm picturing you as 300 pounds of "big, beautiful woman" lying naked in a bean-bag, eating Chee-tos and gasping for breath in a cold sweat.

Am I warm?

[locomotive]

yeah well I agree with venomgirl but to consider the man's place you would need to answer the question what is called a man?

[Smurf]

I can only imagine what your extent of overconfidence and sloth has produced, in terms of physical reality...

I'm picturing you as 300 pounds of "big, beautiful woman" lying naked in a bean-bag, eating Chee-tos and gasping for breath in a cold sweat.

Am I warm?

naahh mate you'd probably have to get your fat posterior out of the way first :lol: :lol:

[venom mama]

i don't eat cheetos.

cheetos are made with cheese and i don't eat dairy products.
as a matter of fact i don't eat any kind of animal product.

i'm just a fruit, nut,veggie, tofu kind of girl.


as for being ungrateful
:nono:


for life i give thanks everyday
for the sun and
for all that is good in the world i praise god



for my man with strong arms and a kind heart
i could not ask for more

and trust me, he knows he's appriciated

[Kether]

Are ungrateful parasite bitches necessary?
In what way are feminists 'parasites'? Much of the feminist movement has been geared towards helping women as a section of society become independent.
Secondly: ungrateful for what exactly?

[MidnightSun]

a man's place?



naked and pleasuring me.


no reason to talk
i don't listen anyways.

Heres another point for me to hate women for.

[Smurf]

Heres another point for me to hate women for.

woah! where'd that one come from?

lost loves and hearts begone
this man has love for no one?

[sonrisa]

lord Ron! :goodlaugh: you still ain't getting none are ya?

yo locomotive- stop polluting your brain wth Paris & Nicole. A mind is a terrible thing to wasted! :D

hmmm..... it just occurred to me- could Ron's ideal women be.... Paris & Nicole????
just a thought..... :goodlaugh:

[locomotive]

who is paris and nicole :)

[MidnightSun]

They play with you and when they get bored they get rid of you, just throw u away, like an old bored toy who is no longer fun to play with. Same moment u trust in them they bite ur neck, like rats, like rats...

[venom mama]

like rats?

i have just as many male friends as i do female and we all respect each other. i don't get where this bitterness comes from midnight sun.

the whole point of being in a relationship is to have fun and enjoy your time together. i'll tell you midnight, i work very hard and i pay all my own bills. everything i have i got for myself. in my spare time, which is very limited, if the guy that i'm hanging out with wants to whine and complain and i'm not enjoying my time with him, then yes, i will move on.

life is to short to be with someone who doesn't make you happy.

[locomotive]

haha why is venomgirls view wrong?

It doesn't need to hurt if you move on just like with everything. If you are afraid of jumping of the plank you need to move on, maybe you will think it's ok to jump maybe not but atleast you will think about the situation realistically. In fact the reason you became scared might have been something like not beeing used to stand high and normally there is concrete on the ground instead of water.

[1Laspirant]

I agree with the sentiment, that wise men listen to women...especially if they are adept enough to realize the particular woman is wise (assuming she is).

The flaw is -as is often the case- gross generalizations; i.e., all men are practical, all women are nurturing. These sort of broad reasonings are seldom strong.

That said, the overall topic of the board (men and women) is broad.

[scameter]

"all meetings end in partings"

Do all partings end in meetings?

[Smurf]

meeting with whom?

perhaps you can meet and never part like in spirit? or memory and love?

does there have to be a meeting when you part?

[Smurf]

well you'd have to have double personality

and that would be a crowd if you met someone else aswell :D

[scameter]

good question...there will always be meetings so there will always be partings...but are the meetings a result of the partings...in some way i would suppose they are...but i don't know in what way...i will think about it...

:)

does there have to be a meeting when you part?

:)

~sigh~ once you have a meeting with your Self there is no parting. from the Self...it's a paradox....well kinda

:P

[Smurf]

~sigh~ once you have a meeting with your Self there is no parting. from the Self...it's a paradox....well kinda

:lol: :lol:

I'm sorry Psyche :P I understand just being difficult again :D

[scameter]

:rolleyes: :D

[CSwriter1]

I come to discussion with a troubled mind. I have felt close to very few people, so it really doesn't matter if 98% of the people I have met, walk away. It is when we feel intimate with another, and this person either dislikes us, or is indifferent and does not reciporcate the desire to be close, that we feel pained.

Those who boast they are not hurt when relationships end, are announcing they never felt close to another in the first place. I don't think this is something I would want to announce. I do not admire someone who has never been intimate with another, and therefore, never hurt. The ability to be vulnerable and take risk, is more admirable to me.

I think our ability to meet someone and fall in love deminishes with age, as we are more aware of what we like and don't like, and less willing to compromise. Once a woman is beyond child bearing years, there is no big need for a man in her life, and the idea of adjusting one's life to accommendate another, is not desirable, so the other would have to be very, very desirable to make it worth the a sacrifice of freedom and private space.

[CSwriter1]

Midnightsun Heres another point for me to hate women for.

Do you mean you have decided to hate women? I am feeling sorry for Thomas right now. He has put together a very intelligent and informative discussion opportunity, and it appears not everyone here is the same quality of person as Thomas.

The idea that women are less intellectual than men is nonsense. But why would a woman willing become involved with women haters?

If Thomas had not such an excellent job of creating this site, and I were not already subcsribed to it, but just skimming through to see if I wanted to join, I would not join. Something is unfortunately wrong here, the last two times I have been to this site, I just happened to find the offensive things, instead of the quality of Thomas efforts.

I have noticed when men go to war, it is the women who keep the children alive. When there is severe economic depression, it is the women who keep the children alive. This is a generalization, but I think what was said about the strength of women and the nature of men is true. I think women to politically assert themselves for the benefit of mankind. Both men and women have their value. I think the conditions of earth necessitated that they be different. We can love the difference, and I have no desire to participate in hatred.

[MidnightSun]

Do you mean you have decided to hate women?

Non at all.

[scameter]

Indeed, women are often the ones who create such luxuries, CS. But do not take women for being perfect, nor men. Both are human, "all too human", and both are capable of horrors unbelievable.

[Smurf]

nothing is perfect... remember that

[scameter]

The only things perfect are what the individual conceptually believes is perfect. Life is imperfect, thus objectively, nothing can be perfect except in conceptuality.

[Smurf]

nothing can be perfect except in conceptuality.

exactly!

question:

what is more perfect than perfect itself?

nothing!

[scameter]

Definitely. And, what is perfect? What we consider to be defined as perfect. True perfection only exists as long as we believe it does and in the conditions to which we set it in.

[MidnightSun]

i have just as many male friends as i do female and we all respect each other. i don't get where this bitterness comes from midnight sun.

Had bad times then, so everything seemed black...

[Smurf]

and "manly men have a certain nature that woman MUST learn to understand and respect"


oh god we have heaps of them at my school, all boys school, I think you can imagine what goes on ...

[buzzlightyear1982]

""manly men..."

Isn't that just another way of saying socially insecure and morally confused? Not to mention the "I've worked all day and wheres my dinner" sexist way of thinking B)

[poulenc]

I'm a man who enjoys the company of women much more than that of other men. In my experience, women are generally more in touch with themselves emotionally and spirtually while men have been socialized to be emotionally constipated. Women's value systems tend to prize cooperation over competition, a prominent feature of what men value. Similarly, women are more thoughtful and less full of themselves.

Having said all this, I feel I should stress that the paragraph above is chock full o' generalizations. Yes, of course, there are many males who are thoughtful, peace-loving and sensitive--so sensitive in fact that if I didn't say that, there'd be hell to pay.

I tend to enjoy books with female authorship, women's art (and it's a crime that so little of it gets a showing), women's music, and, as I said, women's companionship. I usually find them wittier and more generous as well.

In fact, I sometimes think that if I weren't sexually attracted to men, I'd have absolutely nothing to do with them!

[buzzlightyear1982]

I will admit that I do enloy the pressents and conversation of woman over men. Growing up I was raised by my mother and I grow up with all female friends, except for two male friends. So I can see your point. But I don't think your choice of woman over men has anything to do with the fact you prefer them over men. It all come down to opposites...you wouldn't want to have a converstion with yourself, would you? Someone who feels the sames, thinks the same, and acts the same as you. From my point of view we are a nation of sheep, if people don't like who we are then we conform to be just like them B) Do you agree? Or have I missed it completely?

[poulenc]

Well, no, not completely. Just a little. I was just saying that I think women make better friends because on the whole, they're more outgoing, more interested in the world they live in instead of just their own little nest; they're wittier, more generous and have a lot more to contribute to a friendship.

I also said that I am attracted sexually to men rather than women and that, if that weren't the case, I might not have any men friends at all.

I hope you know that I'm attempting humor there (not about being gay--I am gay--but about not having any male friends.)

[sonrisa]

jeez Poulenc, where were u when we were fighting with the bigot in one of the other forums? Your input would of been most welcome. But I think he's gone now, he said that the discussion was concluded & he does not "suffer fools". I don't know about that, since apparantly he's been living with himself all this time.....

Interesting, you say you get along better with women. I seem to get along better with men, platonically as well as romantcally (I'm straight) I do have a couple good, close girlfriends, but other than them, all my other friends are guys. Go figure.

[poulenc]

Interesting, Sonrisa. (BTW, that's Spanish for "smile," right?) Now let me ask you a follow-up question--and if I'm being nosy, just tell me, I won't be offended. Would you say that in your friendships with men, it's generally you who decides to establish the friendship or is it the man?...and how about with your women friends? Again, if this is too personal, don't be embarrassed to tell me to mind my own business.

[sonrisa]

sî, ¡estås mås bien! :)

as for who decides to establish the friendships I have- hmmmm.... I never thought about that. I always figured it was a mutual thing, you know, you have similar intrests & pov's on a variety of things.... You just get along with those people.... I certainly don't force my company on anybody who doesn't want it. There are plenty of other folx on this planet to hang out with. Maybe it's a matter of availability, whoever's free to go do something on a given date, so you go hang out with that person(s). I think the internet is a great tool for maintaining friendships, when your lives get too hectic & you don't see certain friends for a while, you can maintain the friendship on the net, sending & receiving jokes & other items of interest.

[buzzlightyear1982]

A friendship/relationship cant be decided on like a move on a chess board...it's just something that just happens. Often you cant control the fact that it developed, however, you can control how long it exist B)

[sonrisa]

got a newsflash 4 u Buzz- there are manipulitive b*tches out there who plot out every move of a relationship like it was on a chess board. Which I guess is why I get along with males better. I hate those kind of b*tches who play those kind of games. Men, as a rule don't indulge in that crap.

[poulenc]

Yes, I see what you mean, Sonrisa and Buzz. The blossoming of a friendship is organic. You're absolutely right--and yet I can't shake the feeling that a decision is made at some point. But it's extremely subtle, almost on a subconscious level. This is a subject that interests me because I've come to feel that women and men give off different kinds of welcoming/unwelcoming signals. But, yeah, I probably am guilty of reading too much into this.

[buzzlightyear1982]

"there are manipulitive b*tches out there who plot out every move of a relationship like it was on a chess board"

I am very aware of this fact...I dated every single one of them in the Phoenix area...and I was married to one for one and a half years! I didn't say people don't try...I just said it was impossible to control B)

"and yet I can't shake the feeling that a decision is made at some point"

I will agree to the fact that uncounciously you do make a command decision in your head that this is a person who you wish to persue a relationship/frienship with. However, to make the decision conciously is imposible B)

[sahyo]

you can control



as though can how-when-where ?

[buzzlightyear1982]

how-when-where ?...what...I'm afaid I don't get what your trying to ask :think:

[Winfried]

I always figured it was a mutual thing, you know, you have similar intrests & pov's on a variety of things
This is pretty weird. Some of my best friends disagree with me on a lot of subjects. Maybe that's why I like them - it brings nice discussions on a variety of things. Yet at the beginning of our friendship we had more things in common than we do now. Or maybe the same amount of things, but we've developed opinions about other manners, which were too difficult to understand for a nine year-old.
I still like them, especially when there's a parteh! :alcoholic: :hug:

[buzzlightyear1982]

"Some of my best friends disagree with me on a lot of subjects"

They say opposites are attacked to opposites, so maybe you consider them such good friends because of the fact that you do see the world so differantly. Besides, you can never have too maby differant point of views B)

"which were too difficult to understand for a nine year-old"

I would give anything to see the world like an nine-year-old again, everuthing was so simple back then :dancing:

[sonrisa]

Winfried-- Some of my best friends disagree with me on a lot of subjects.

-- where has that little fascist troll been anyhow?

[Winfried]

I don't really understand what you mean.
There are no fascists among my friends :P. But mr. Anarchy has gone away.

[sahyo]

how-when-where ?...what...I'm afaid I don't get what your trying to ask :think:



ok

[jimbeaux]

I agree with venomgirl. Generally, white men in suits are largely responsible for the conditions we find ourselves in today. I, for one, am ready to try something or someone different and see if we can't find a better way.

[MidnightSun]

Very true psyche :lol:

[buzzlightyear1982]

"friendship is not a means to an end..."

That all depend on the type of frienship your refering too...there are many to choose from...

[redraven]

I will tell you something funny. My wife and I were on our first date at this coffee shop called SIPS, and we were listening to an unfortunate rap song coming out of someone's car. I said something about being a feminist, and my wife and I got in this discussion.

I said that I believe women to be superior in every way, but that they are constantly relegated to the private sector because of their strong desire, may I say NEED, to bear and raise children. My wife agreed, all of her life she wanted children, and she jokingly told me that a husband had always been secondary, except that her morals called for one.

You see, my wife was raised Quaker, and she is conservative in her Christian morals. We go to a meeting in Yellow Springs from time to time, and we went for a whole 2 years at one point, the longest I have ever gone to a Christian Church since childhood, until things got too politico at the meeting. My wife doesn't like it when Quakers try to control politics, even though she is an activist in her own right.

That conversation is the reason we got married. I am strong, fast and smart, but my wife is stronger in many ways, faster, and smarter in every way. We are both "in control" type people, but my wife makes many of the decisions because she has a better head for things than I do.

I am always dreaming dreams, I don't know if that's all males, but it certainly is me. Always in my head, always cooking up something. I get this look on my face and my wife tells me to get out the paints and go to the easel before I start driving her nuts.

This could drive me nuts, but I have decided that it doesn't. I love my wife, I want kids, we are happy together and have something that no woman I'll ever see on the internet or on the street and I could ever have. We are not always passionate, but that is long-term relationships. We are always friends, and that is hard to do in a marriage.

[CSwriter1]

Red Raven, What we see in others is a reflection of ourselves. You have a nice reflection.

[CSwriter1]

women can be manipulative bitches

and most men's interest in women is primarily sexual

these types see people as a means towards an end

friendship is not a means to an end

Humans are reactors and often we are reacting without awareness of ourselves or others.

It is most important to select those we allow into our lives carefully, but I don't think the young, in general, have enough information for making good decisions.
When we are young we are these great big empty bags needing to be filled up. Not until much later in life, say 50 years old, do we begin to really get our acts together. Until then, it is pretty much like going on a trip with a person just learning to drive. Around then, men become more domestic and women are past the needing children stage, and I think this is a nice improvement.

However, I have a met a few young romantic guys who made me feel like a queen, and this was a wonderful feeling! They were into role playing and liked the chivalry of the past. My property and relationship with one of them, made him as the king, and I had to be loyal to him to protect his honor and prestege which in turn protected my honor and prestege as well. My king had something everyone wanted, me. It was a wonderful fantasy for as long as it lasted.

[MidnightSun]

Around then, men become more domestic and women are past the needing children stage, and I think this is a nice improvement

Or otherwise...

I have a met a few young romantic guys who made me feel like a queen, and this was a wonderful feeling! They were into role playing and liked the chivalry of the past. My property and relationship with one of them, made him as the king, and I had to be loyal to him to protect his honor and prestege which in turn protected my honor and prestege as well. My king had something everyone wanted, me. It was a wonderful fantasy for as long as it lasted.

I look at this and see my soul. Thats what i want my relashionips with someone precious to me would be. It also drives my thoughts to old memories which are also romantic but unfortunately sad ones.