Suicide

[MidnightSun]

What do u think about it? To kill urself? Is that right? Bad? And why?

[sahyo]

to kill what?

what's to kill?


:)

[MidnightSun]

To kill urself.

[Venus]

Lol! I shouldn't laugh in a suicide thread.
To me commiting suicide is sickening and upsetting.
I think it is bad for the people affected by the suicide.

[scameter]

To predict and illustrate asheera's next statement: what self to kill? :D

[Venus]

True...

[WilliamMckeehan]

it some times really seems like a easy way out ... maybe a way a coward would take? i dont think that personaly but i have heard it but i have had some pretty bad experiences along with a lot of people i have had thoughts of suicide ... im not sure why this was in a point in time were i was lost before i found this site but i never would of went threw with it im too much of a chicken :D


there bad but i think in todays world a lot of people have depression a lot of them have it for so long they dont even know what i feels like to be normal ... i have noticed this with my self i have a lot of signs of depression but i always have a lot of people do or atleast in America

killing ur self is bad

[locomotive]

they just need to crack a window open once in a while, breath some sense into them

[Smurf]

you know what? to me i can't be bothered killing myself right now. but when death comes i won't be sad. but i'm sure people should just let themselves flow through life, following the "rules" meh. but to kill yourself it sort of defeats the purpose of the mind hey? there is so much beauty in this world, why turn the show off? :D

[WilliamMckeehan]

you know what? to me i can't be bothered killing myself right now. but when death comes i won't be sad. but i'm sure people should just let themselves flow through life, following the "rules" meh. but to kill yourself it sort of defeats the purpose of the mind hey? there is so much beauty in this world, why turn the show off?



:thumbsup: i couldnt of said it better

[Venus]

Yeah. I agree with you. :thumbsup:

[MidnightSun]

Taoism says u live to die, just to live..so what if u kill urslef then? That seems not bad..

Some satanists also suicides...for the Satan which..? does not exsists?

[scameter]

To quote the philosopher Montaigne, crediting Cicero, from his essay "That to Think as a Philosopher Is to Learn to Die" says, "Foreknowledge of death is foreknowledge of liberty. He who has learned to die has unlearned servitude. To know how to die frees us from all subjection and compulsion. There is nothing evil in life for him who clearly understand that the loss of life is not an evil. [...] We must remove the mask from things as from persons. When it is removed, we shall find underneath only the self-same death that a man-servent or mere chambermaid met but now without fear."

[deepakgang]

A religious explanation:

It would be a very serious mistake on the part of an individual if he commits suicide. It would seriously hamper his spiritual progress. It would also expose him to the risk of redoing in a more arduous way what he wanted to avoid in the first place.

According to Hindu beliefs if a person commits suicide, he remains in the earth consciousness as a spirit and wanders aimlessly till he completes his actual and allotted life time. In the end he returns to the earth again to complete his previous karma and start from there once again. Suicide puts an individual's spiritual clock in reverse.

People commit suicide as to escape from their problems, out of mental anguish. But killing oneself only takes your body away. The problems and the anguish are still there in your soul. So you cant run away from it. You will take another birth with the same kind of problems you were running away from. You have to fulfill your karma. Somehow.

[Smurf]

live to die

i think suicide sort of defeats the purpose of that! :D
and very true Deepakgang, i like the Hindu's perspective.

[scameter]

Not really smurf. Actually, it would prove it, because that would merely further itterate the suicide-commiter's lust for life's death.

[scameter]

If what they say is true, then wouldn't it be that they fear life and we fear death?

[scameter]

That's why there was a question ("?") mark at the end of what I said. :)

[sahyo]

To predict and illustrate asheera's next statement: what self to kill? :D



:D yes

[fu*]

What the %^&$ happened to Bigview???

What I see here is some children who have deceived themselves into thinking that they know what it is go thru..... to have been thru....
So anxious to know what can only be known when experienced.

to kill what?

what's to kill?

To predict and illustrate asheera's next statement: what self to kill?

Umm.... How bout this self! ???

but if my dad kills his self or anything like that i will too



I think it is bad for the people affected by the suicide

When you experience this, it will be beyond "good" or "bad".....You will know.

you know what? to me i can't be bothered killing myself right now. but when death comes i won't be sad

I have read that you have recently become "enlightened". Good for you! But maybe the proof will be when your closest person commits suicide, and yet you are not "sad". Will that happen?

QUOTE

To predict and illustrate asheera's next statement: what self to kill?





yes


YES!................. YES??? No self to kill, but self to post?

Is it ok to kill another self? Because there isn't any other self?

I am going to have a hamburger...cause there is no "I"

FU

[sahyo]

YES!................. YES??? No self to kill, but self to post?

what "self"?

Is it ok to kill another self? Because there isn't any other self?

is your question-answering

I am going to have a hamburger...cause there is no "I"

what "cause"?

[fu*]

what "self"?

I thought I made that clear.

is your question-answering

Did you forget the question mark? Or was that a statement?

what "cause"?

Hunger.

Slipping....more.....to......bitter

Ow well, no self to slip, I hear, but seems.

[scameter]

Wow, cynicism incarnate, as well as the current state of man, which is a lack of all-too-human passion for life it's self and simplicity of living. Maybe Thomas's new, standardized topic forum that allows one to post entirely formal topics, actually requires it, and for them to then reply to it systematically. That should help you, fu. And by the way, you've changed since you left.

[fu*]

Wow, cynicism incarnate, as well as the current state of man,

How very arrogant of you to think you know the "current state of man"

which is a lack of all-too-human passion for life it's self and simplicity of living

How very arrogant of you to judge my "passion" or "simplicity of living".

Maybe Thomas's new, standardized topic forum that allows one to post entirely formal topics

If you cared enough to respect Thomas's board, you might try to understand that the new category is not "formal topics", but "formal debates". And what he wrote as wishes/rules for that is quite clear.

That should help you, fu. And by the way, you've changed since you left.


How arrogant of you. Look at your member number. How could you possibly know change in fu. What would "help" me would be a category that would be quite opposite. Something like maybe "the cage" or "the gutter" or The "lion/lioness's den" or something like that, where people would be warned not to post unless they liked "ad hominems", or what most consider personal attacks. ( as if one can attack black dots on a white screen, or attack thoughts )

Come to think of it, it would be just like your response above. <_<


So if you want to tell me what you truly know about suicide, as was the topic, do that.

If we want to examine self in another way, lets do that :loveyou:)

fu

[Smurf]

I see that perhaps you have experienced suicide fu? i would believe that it is bad?

but no one can completely understand something until they experience it, please do not judge us because we are trying to understand the emotions and feelings that surround suicide. I see too that you are quite shocked to find Thebigview changed? I see it has changed but i see good. :)

[MidnightSun]

I see that perhaps you have experienced suicide fu? i would believe that it is bad?

I did..and im thinking if i should try it again.

[scameter]

So am I midnight. Every moment.

[scameter]

Because words cannot always convey experience; words are too frail and hallow for such conversation. Which is why buddhists and Zen and Taoists stress the importance that enlightenment cannot be attained from words, but rather from experience.

[Smurf]

I did..and im thinking if i should try it again.

no don't do that Midnight, we would all miss you if you did! You have so many friends here so many reasons to stay. :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

there is a difference between trying ... and doing? maybe u want to have the ner death feeling? to keep ur self going longer? or maybe u really want to either way everyone will tell you not to and yes i will tell you not to as well midnight u are my friend as everyone on this site is we are all friends a lot of people think and try suicide most of them do go threw with it which is good i hope you dont go threw it either myself and anyone of us will be willing to help in anyway we can i have had experience with talking to people who have these feelings as probably some others do to from what i get from you ... you have alot of love to give dont waste it

[Smurf]

there is a difference between trying ... and doing?

certainly!

yes give love for free! as much as you want to anyone whenever however! :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

:)

[Smurf]

Hey Will!
I see you've changed your status again! lol :lol:

[WilliamMckeehan]

yes am afraid so ... i do not know what i would consider my status at this point in time :think:

[scameter]

Do or do not. There is no try. :)

[MidnightSun]

No, there is.

[scameter]

How so? If you do something, you either do it, or you don't. There is no try.

[Smurf]

Hey Scam I think that when you look back Trying is doing someting to a degree?
But you can definately also say that they did not do it

@Will I find it easier to just use the default Guru :P

[scameter]

Right, they either do it or they don't. Simply. We say "try" because it is a sort of insurance, that if we do fail at our predesigned task, we can say "Well, I tried." But, in reality, you failed.

[Smurf]

yes, but there is also try, trying is doing something to a degree. you didn't do it but you did it to say 50% that is the try , try is also the intention combined with this.

[scameter]

If you began to do something and only did it as you say "50%", you failed at it/did not do it.

[MidnightSun]

You say u will try to do something when ur not sure if u will and u dont know if u will fail ir not. That is trying.

[scameter]

No, that is uncertainly and conceptually, without evidencial action following, that I may attempt to do something; in no way does that verify or certify that an actual action followed suit with the concept.

[Smurf]

I KNOW SCAM! :angry:

Listen! @#@#!

You can fail at something, but if you half did it then that is the try.

aHHHAHA

You can start cutting down a tree? then you stop halfway? you failed the objective, but you tried! :angry:

[scameter]

You began the task, and did not finish it. You failed/did not. There was/is no try. :)

[Smurf]

I KNOW!!! HAHAGAGG

sometimes your logic blocker can be very annoying scam! :P

You did not finish it....

but if you also did it to a "degree" that is the try!!!!!@!$@#$%!@$#%!

but you still failed? but you tried and completed it halfway

meh :lol:

[scameter]

I'm not saying about success; I mean the completion of a task. If one begins a task and does not finish it entirely, he failed at it. If he does indeed finish it entirely, then that he did; he *did*, not *did not*. :)

[Smurf]

yes, i agree with you Scam that there is do and do not a task, but if you did a task to a degree what do you call that?

I used to also think as you do now. :)

[scameter]

Used to? So, you are beyond my thinking now? You are a smurf indeed! :P I would call that, doing something to a degree. B)

[Smurf]

oh no I am equal in thinking to everyone here, it is just that I used to think that there was no try either,

Try is the degree of effort put in by the person... to "make an effort or attempt" THAT! is try

[scameter]

I agree, that is try. But, you still do not do or do not. You try. But, trying isn't satisfactory; it isn't whole, and thus really cannot be considered an action. It's more of a whim. :)

[Smurf]

oh it isn't do or do not, but it is an action, a verb is a doing word is it not?

[scameter]

An action verb is yes. But, the argument was "do, or do not; there is no try." Objectively, when we begin a task, we either complete it, or we do not; "try" is another way of saying "failed", but with some personal gratification, and usually signifies fulfilling a portion of a task begun. But, if one indeed does try, then one indeed does fail; they "do not".

[Smurf]

But yes i agree, I am not saying that try is the failure, it is nothing to do if you completed a task or not. I challenge you to never use try in your speech, never say things such as "well i tried to tell him/her" That is your challenge :P

[scameter]

Why? That would be illogical. "Try" is there for it's purpose; but, if asked if I completed my task or not, I wouldn't say "Well, I tried and completed it." I'd say that I completed it, if I indeed did, and that I didn't complete it if I indeed did not.

[Smurf]

yes,


but Scam Try exists, to try and do something means that you put the effort into it, you attempted to do it.

Whether you finish or not is another matter completely.

[scameter]

I agree smurf; essentially, that was my entire point. Doing or not doing does not involve "try"; in the business of the absolutes of doing or not doing, "trying" cannot exist, because you either do one or the other, with no in between.

[Smurf]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

me too :D

heh :lol:

[scameter]

:P

[MidnightSun]

I just dont like Yoda.

[Smurf]

I just dont like Yoda.

:lol: yeah come to think of it I don't either :D
all of his silly speaking, sorta really doesn't need to be you know?

[scameter]

I'm sure most people do think that. I love Yoda; he's most definitely my favorite character in Star Wars because of his profound sagely wisdom, beyond that of any other Jedi, and without the confines of logic. His talking isn't "silly"; to me, how idiotic commoners of this world speak, in that sort of ebonical, uncaring bastardization of English, which essentially began with the invasion of 1066 by the Normans to Britain, subsequently ruining the English language with French nonsense, is both unnecessary and silly. They only speak that way out of laziness and uncaring; they have no appreciation for the actual language. It is sad when the only people seeming to care about using English corretly are scientists who do not truly care, they are just attempting with every effort to appear intelligent, even in the field to which they do not profess.

[Smurf]

how idiotic commoners of this world speak
:think: okaay

subsequently ruining the English language with French nonsense

Only a few words were assimilated into the english language, and I think that Yoda speaks this "Middle English" anyway? :)

It is sad when the only people seeming to care about using English corretly are scientists who do not truly care, they are just attempting with every effort to appear intelligent, even in the field to which they do not profess.

yeah :P

[Smurf]

Yeah I know, I was just questioning it.

Scam you're sounding like you're above everyone else, as if you are better than them because you can speak, "proper English".

[scameter]

Hmm...then I must have said it wrong. I meant, that I despise how the majority of people use this English language, and uncaringly and with an incredible lack of respect bastardize it on purpose, through choice. I do not mean to sound superior, because I am not. I will not deny, however, that I do love English as a language, and I do try with the best of my ability to use it both properly and respectfully artistically, poetically, in it's supposed form; not in the ebonical corruption to which it is of current.

actually i disagree the norman influence enriched our language...which is why there are so many brilliant english and american writers...we have a larger vocabulary capable of subtle nuances of meaning ....

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. French took the original English and influenced and effected it with their own language; the results being only somewhat relevent. But what is relevent, is that the French people took their language and imposed it onto the English language, throwing the original English language into what they considered language only fit for the peasants and commoners; the only reason it is so prominant now is because the majority of the newly-Norman England people spoke English, but were forced to incoroprate French into their language. I love English culture and language and heritage, and I hate how the French destroyed that heritage permanently, it's bones being only subtle whispers in the shroud of noise that is current English, if it can indeed even be called English. American would probably suit it more properly.

[Smurf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

read ... and agree :lol: not saying that you are wrong Scam...

American would probably suit it more properly.

The airhead types?

[scameter]

Yes, and the ebonical lack of care for English correctness and beauty types :D But, I agree with that too; but most of what I said was opinion, not fact. The Norman/French language and culture did, however, factually impact, if not corrupt, the original English culture and language.

[ghuber]

erm, not to be a downer, but I'd like to return to the original topic...


I get the sense that many of us on this site have probably experienced nihilistic thoughts with or without 'logical' basis. Now, my comments are going to be totally off the cuff here, but I have a suspicion that the source of those feelings for most of us may steam simply from the alienation of being disproportionately aligned to one's environment. Specifically, all the talk of philosophy, religion, Buddhism, cosmic consciousness, politics and culture on this forum denotes to me a collection of beings here who are, if nothing else, very intelligent and highly advanced spiritually relative to most of their everyday peers. Personally, I think those two functions always coalesce at some point given enough time and an open heart.

I believe that fact alone has a huge impact on all of our lives. When the rest of the (Western) world is clamouring over itself to get to the top of the pile like rats on crack in an orgy of maximum achievement better-faster-harder-stronger media hyped celebrity gossip, we're left wondering who really cares about all this "higher" stuff anyway. And when you get the prolonged sense that no one substantial really does, yeah... it gets you down. You may just start wondering if maybe it wouldn't be better if you didn't just save the hassle and check out now. Someone once told me, "Life is not a prison when you have the key." He carried a capsule with him. Morbid? Maybe. But... a good point, nonetheless. The temptation is always there.

We're all bright enough to know how this game ends. We're bright enough to see that if the rules entail watching the 'rat race' occur for the next fifty or sixty years while we stumble around it trying to be a part of something we don't even believe in to begin with (or evolved our minds out of the need for), dejected and frustrated that there wasn't a more purposeful reason to be here in the first place, it doesn't take much for even the most intelligent mind to piece together the self-annihilating logic that arrives at suicide as its conclusion.

I don't think it is a coincidence that antidepressants are the #1 perscribed drug in the West.

A lot of people are feeling this. A lot.


From a Buddhist perspective, this is a very positive sign! It means people are waking up. They are starting to feel, if not consciously understand yet, the growing compassion in their hearts. It starts as depression... manifesting as guilt and feelings of hypocrisy, disillusionment, withdrawl, confusion... The ride may get pretty bumpy. It may even take you all the way down to the point you just want to step off. It is part of the path.

The most inspiring and life-affirming thing I have ever read is:

Depression is the best thing that can happen to you.

Buddhist View on Depression (http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/depression.html)


Feel the joy of it! This is their depression, so the most wonderful thing would be to experience it for them and allow all those suffering from depression to have every happiness. Then rejoice that you have this opportunity to experience this problem of depression on their behalf. "How fantastic it is that I'm experiencing this depression on behalf of all beings!"

Think again and again, "How lucky I am that I can experience this depression for them. I've made many prayers to take others' suffering onto myself, so now those prayers are being actualized. How fantastic this is! It makes my life so rich, so meaningful! How fortunate I am to experience this depression on behalf of all living beings."


It sounds like madness.

But I can't help but smile when I remember it. The idea is so very Buddhist... All the smiling Tibetians and Thais I have met come rushing back to me. This is why they smile. For me, it is the true essence of what the Buddhist path to happiness means. That simple idea was able to turn around the blackest of my thoughts back on themselves. It gave me the chance to realize that this is part of the process... to be depressed is to finally be experiencing the true depth of suffering. Not just intellectualizing it... Not just even 'seeing' it, in misfortunate others... but actually feeling it myself. When I thought of depression this way, all the shame, guilt and "stupidity" of feeling down "for no reason" I was having went away. There is a reason, after all. A very good one.

To any and all of us here on this forum who battle these feelings every day... You are not alone. I'm right there with you. We'll all there with you. You have a good reason to feel this way. Let yourself feel it. All you have to do is keep living. Even if you need to take some time out and just lie in bed for a week. That's cool. I'll bring over some pop corn and we can watch some flicks. Whatever you want to do, life goes on so long as you do. The world is not yet perfect. But you are already way, way beyond where most people are at. This is your gift. Use it to learn, and to experience deeper what it means to be human. The sadness you feel is your heart opening. Let it cut you only so that you may see what is inside you. It hurts, but it's supposed to. This is how you will come to heal. This is your rebirth. It is the reason you were born. Enjoy it. Love.

And...

Don't forget to smile! :duh: :lol:

[locomotive]

what about people that stay like that their whole lives?

[Smurf]

Wow very beautiful post mate! :thumbsup:

and welcome to thebigview.com ghuber! :P

just one question:
The world is not yet perfect

will it ever be? :unsure:

[MidnightSun]

Very wise ghuber.

[WilliamMckeehan]

well in the end there are many ways to look at life, death,love,hate



i am going to accept people for what they believe or want my views are not important to anyone but me so they dont matter :lol:


being happy is all that matters it is till the only thing that truely matters ... even if i am still in a ball of sadness lol


oh and ghuber... i only have one thing to say ! :angry:




















welcome to thebigview.com friend u seem like u will fit in just fine :thumbsup: :D

[Smurf]

Hmm Will:

De woede van de liefde kent geen grenzen

[locomotive]

serieus?

[MidnightSun]

To be or not to be
Thats the question for me


:P

[WilliamMckeehan]

Hmm Will:

De woede van de liefde kent geen grenzen

:think: ???


yes i am very mean -_- i am sorry

[Smurf]

I was looking at your sig ... :P

[buzzlightyear1982]

"i remember my hindu guru saying something about getting to the point where ordinary life 'disgusts' you...then you long for the spiritual..."

What is the definition of an ordaninary life? And if 'ordinary' life disgusts you than you left any spiritual believes you ever had, if any, far behind B)

[Smurf]

OK if we might associate an ordinary life with the mistaken stereotype of the boring accountant? :P

[buzzlightyear1982]

Yes...I do accosiate an 'ordinary' life with the safety first, look both ways before you cross the street, always consider everything before you jumpm into, and when I die I'll regret everything I never did. There is no such thing as ordinary because we are all differant...as you pointed out 'ordianary' is in fact an sterotype that we use for the way we desire things to be B)

[Smurf]

yes

but no

There is a stereotype and unfortunately stereotypes can be applied to real life, so an "ordinary life" can be applied here... a life without meaning or spirit :)

[buzzlightyear1982]

"There is a stereotype and unfortunately stereotypes can be applied to real life, so an "ordinary life" can be applied here... a life without meaning or spirit"

I'll give you that one...often people refer to this as an boring life...and a boring life in sterotypes is an 'ordianary lie' :thumbsup:

[Smurf]

:star:

:P

[buzzlightyear1982]

However, what about those who commite suicide because they want an ordinary live...Kurt Cobain B)

[namtso]

To be or not to be
Thats the question for me

"To sleep! perchance to dream —ay, there's the rub."

Midnight Sun,
I'm 45 yrs. old now but when I was 16 life was very confusing for me. In fact, I don't think I honestly became comfortable in my own skin until after my mid 20's or so. But please don't let that discourage you. It does get better and if you focus on those things that enrich one's life instead of dwelling on pain and confusion then your life will just get better and more enjoyable day by day. Mind training is what it is. I swear, believe me. One of the very big changes in a person's life is when they get a career and begin supporting themselves. It is a little scary but it's extremely liberating and gratifying, trust me. One of the biggest obstacles to happiness for me was peer pressure. Drinking, smoking, listening to music with lyrics that are just plain empty and devoid of any spiritual dimension. I choose my music very carefully now. It's got to leave me feeling enriched or happy otherwise it goes in the dust bin. And I don't hang around with hard core partiers any more. Too much confusion and wasting of a person's time and spiritual energy. I'm not saying that a person should give up alcohol entirely but it does cloud one's perceptions and decision making. I personally don't drink alcohol any more. I found that I liked it way too much and if I didn't quit it could have caused me some real problems. And I gave up smoking even before I gave up alcohol. Now whenever the topic of drinking comes up at work or elsewhere I make it a point to tell people that I quit in the early 1980's. I enjoyed the feeling of being drunk but the down side was not worth it to me at all. So many things that can be enjoyable also come with a heck of a hangover. "Come over to the dark side Luke!" No thanks Darth, I hate the hangover afterwards. Being free of addiction is a reward in itself too. I was never alcoholic but I just realized that I was doing it too often and it was causing problems in my life so I quit. Life is very enjoyable for me now even while being deep in debt and wondering if I'm going to get laid off from work next month (or the month after that, or the month after that ...) A huge lesson to those just starting out on their career and comtemplating relying on credit cards - DON'T!!! Just say no. You end up just keeping the banks in business. In the end, they enjoy the money you earn, not you. You end up in a panic every month wondering if you have enough money to pay your credit card bills.

Anyhow Midnight Sun, I am fully aware that anyone who talks about suicide should be taken seriously so if you want to talk about stuff you are welcome to contact me by private message and I'd be more than happy to talk. Or right here in open forum if you'd prefer. It does get better, I swear.

[MidnightSun]

Thank you :)

[namtso]

No prob

[______]

Originally posted by @--
No prob
:lol: I think that's the shortest post I've seen from you yet! :lol:

I love how you always have a lot to say on a subject! :thumbsup:

[namtso]

I think that's the shortest post I've seen from you yet!
Yeah, I tend to get a little verbose, don't I. I often think I'd do myself a huge favor by just shutting up for a while and reading more. I'm sure some of my friends at work feel the same way, ha ha. I've been buying up lots of books but many sit on the shelf unread. I jokingly tell people I'm a book collector.

later .......

[______]

...This is how you will come to heal. This is your rebirth. It is the reason you were born. Enjoy it. Love.
And...
Don't forget to smile!

Wow. This really touched me deeply. I wish I could quote it all, but that's simply a lot to quote. I'm not sure what to say on this other than:

"When the Buddha was asked the secret to Enlightenment, he replied, 'Follow the breath.'" :D

Though the "game" ends the same for everyone, the "game" is what is different for all. Therefore, suicide negates the "game" when we are here to "play the game". :lol:

[namtso]

Smurf, here's something Robert Thurman recounted that speaks to your post -


just one question:

The world is not yet perfect


will it ever be?


[excerpt taken from http://www.bobthurman.com/essay4.shtml , Robert Thurman]

"In the Vimalakirti again, Shariputra reflects a similar concern, after he hears the Buddha describe the perfection and glory of his Buddha-land; "`If the Buddha-land is perfect only to the extent that the mind of the Bodhisattva is perfect, then, when Shakyamuni Buddha was engaged in the career of the Bodhisattva, his mind must have been imperfect.

Otherwise, how could this Buddha-land appear to be so imperfect?'" The Buddha then reads the mind of the unfortunate Saint and chides him for his doubt and for the superficiality of his perception, likening him to a man born blind who doubts the existence of a sun and moon he has never seen. The God Brahma also shows his disapproval of Shariputra's imperfect perception.

Finally, the Buddha exerts himself to create an unforgettable symbol of the invisible presence of his kingdom: "Thereupon, the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world-galactic universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathagata Ratnavyuha, called `Infinite-Virtue-Jewel-Array.' Everyone in the entire assembly was filled with wonder, each perceiving him/herself seated on a throne of jeweled lotuses." Shariputra is suitably awed by this dramatic gesture and, after emphasizing his point, the Buddha concludes, "`Shariputra, this Buddha-land is always thus perfect, but the Tathagata makes it appear to be spoiled by many faults, in order to bring about the maturity of inferior living beings...'" Then, he picks up his toe, and the assembly is back in ordinary India! "

[Michael]

When my daughter was 5 and I had explained to her that a character in a film was trying to commit suicide she said, 'You can't do that, it only makes things worse.'

That would be the view that you have to live out your karma one way or another and suicide is another, and very large, rock in your karmic rucksack.

I feel that one of the dreadful, practical outcomes of suicide is the pain and grief the act causes to those around the suicide.

If self hatred is the motive, then compassion for others can be the thing that will keep a suicide alive and from that compassion perhaps some self-respect will flower

Also our mood can change. Suicide is final.

It is a complex issue. If anyone feels a strong impulse to commit suicide, with the exception of those terminally ill or in serious chronic pain, you can be fairly sure their judgement isn't very well balanced. I would recommend that they find someone they can talk to - preferably a good psychologist.

In summary, suicide is not a good idea.

[MidnightSun]

Wow. This really touched me deeply. I wish I could quote it all, but that's simply a lot to quote

It touched me too. A lot. I even saved it up in my hard drive. I want to thank for that guy who wrote that, because when im really sad i read to it and it inspires, helps me and cheers me up so i can live again. Thank you ghuber :)

[______]

You don't have to answer this here if you don't wish to. You can PM me if you want. Then again, you could just not answer, but I'm curious MidSun: Were you thinking about committing suicide when you started this thread? If so, I hope everyone has been helpful.

A lotus to you, friend.

[MidnightSun]

Well as i said in one of my posts on the topic I already tried suicide and was thinking about doing that again, so the answer would be yes.

[...]

Well as i said in one of my posts on the topic I already tried suicide and was thinking about doing that again, so the answer would be yes.

..how can you try suicide?

[MidnightSun]

Its the process. You pick a knife, you cut ur wrists then u start to bleed and become sleepy. Then you lie down and sleep, thinking that you might not wake up. But later you wake up and realize that the critical spot werent hit and the wound is starting to heal. You tryed to kill urself but u survived.

[...]

..next time cut the length of the vain and not across, or jab the leg-aorta en you'll bleed out in minutes. I'm abit torn on the subject of suicide though: i think no one else but the person can decide whether s/he continues to live, but there's nothing that justifies suicide, IMO. Most, if not all, failed suicide attempts are cries for help and attention and if one is offered adequate help, suicide stops being an option. Thenagain, if you truly can't see a way out of life except through death, altough it's an utterly selfish thing to do, no-one can stop you...

[scameter]

:D Sounds kind of stupid to me, trying suicide. If you're willing to do it just blow your brains out with a pistol.

[MidnightSun]

Thats the point, not that easy to get a pistol :P

[namtso]

..next time cut the length of the vain.....
Please. Can we discuss more reasons not to commit suicide now? You're scaring the children ... and me.

[scameter]

Such talk doesn't really scare me. I've thought about suicide many times, even though I know I cannot do it because of instinctual resistence; I think it takes being mentally off to commit suicide intentionally. I think commiting it halfway, as midnight has been saying, is stupid; if you're going to do it and risk it go all the way. If you can't get a gun, slit your throat with the knife you were going to use. Not like knives are hard to find. Most of my suicidal thoughts are more in the nature of I wish I had never been born, or that I wish I could simply cease to exist entirely and without pain or effort, and for everyone to simply forget me. :)

[namtso]

Sorry scam but I respectfully disagree with you. If someone is even thinking about suicide then they should talk to a professional about it. Preferably a psychologist or therapist, not a psychiatrist, at least in the beginning. A psychiatrist will just throw drugs at it without giving adequate attention to getting at the root of the problem. There's a saying that goes "when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail." If a person is thinking about something, they may very well be programming themselves in advance to take action on those thoughts. Thoughts give birth to actions. Don't discount this.

I think commiting it halfway, as midnight has been saying, is stupid; if you're going to do it and risk it go all the way. If you can't get a gun, slit your throat with the knife you were going to use.
What's your game here? What is your intent by playing around with this subject?

[scameter]

:D Psychiatrists can't give out drugs, only psychologists.

I'm not playing around at all. :)

[...]

If someone is even thinking about suicide then they should talk to a professional about it.

..so true, and i have no clue why the OP would bring this issue to an internet forum if the contemplation was sincere...

[Smurf]

Psychiatrists can't give out drugs, only psychologists.

umm nope he's got it right there Scam

Psychologists study the psyche, but psychiatrists hand out the drugs. They have the doctorate and can practice healing of the mind ...


I thought deeply of suicide, but I never could bring myself to do it ... because it struck me ...


If you can control yourself to a degree of self-harm and eventual fatality (which is a lot of control) then why not do it the other way and change your perception of the world to apreciate its beauty and be happy? :dunno:

[scameter]

Umm nope, he's not right there. For instance, my father goes to both a psychiatrist and a psychologist, and the psychiatrist does stuff like behavior therapy, and the psychologist gives out the drugs.

[Smurf]

But psychology is the science, the study of the mind, hence a psychologist studies the mind - just like a geologist studies the earth ...

Psychiatry is the practice of the medicinal qualities of psychotherapy and the like ...

it seems to be logical that it is this way round ...

But I shall not argue with your dad, so I accept your judgement :)

[______]

..next time cut the length of the vain and not across...
I truly hope there isn't a "next time". :(

[Kether]

Psychiatrists can't give out drugs, only psychologists.
Psychiatry is the medical branch 0f psychology, concerned solely with healing and relief of mental disorders - hence the name. Psychiatrists have to undergo medical training before doing more specialised study. I think Namtso's point is that those with suicidal feelings should seek therapists favouring a person-centred approach before going to a psychiatrist, whose approach would be more medical.

[MidnightSun]

Yes, Kether, true.

[scameter]

Think what you will. :)

[namtso]

I guess it might depend on what country you live in, even possibly what state and how doctors are licensed there? That's just a guess on my part although Kether has made the point that the title "Psychiatrist" itself indicates what that person specializes in and what they are trained to do. I think scam lives here in Georgia, isn't that right? My sister has her bachelor's degree in psychology which she got at Long Beach State in California. She's also been to both psychologists and psychiatrists for her own reasons which I'll explain further below. She was also a social worker in Los Angeles County, California for several years. At least in California, the Psychiatrist is the one who can prescribe drugs. It takes a Psychiatrist a lot longer to get thier college degree and credentials because they also have to take a lot of medical classes (physical medicine? physiology? I'm a gettin' a might sleepy at this point, almost time for bed.)

..so true, and i have no clue why the OP would bring this issue to an internet forum if the contemplation was sincere... - dots
Thing is, some people will sort of broadcast their pain even if it's by saying they were contemplating suicide, in order to hopefully get someone to listen to them and maybe offer some help. I looked up a girl I used to date on Classmates.com about a year ago. I got to talking to her on the phone all the time, I told people about it at work until they were flat sick of hearing it. The real reason I told people about it was because I really wanted to fly out and see her but I knew it was wrong because she's married right now. I needed to have other people affirm what I already knew was right and to help push me in the right direction. I didn't want to muck up her marriage, plus she's got two young daughters by the new husband. She was also starting to get too upset with the complications I was introducing. She got to the point where she said we should take a month off from talking. I said sure. She never called back and I haven't called her. It's absolutely for the best. I had really just become hypnotized by her charm all over again and I relied on the guys at work to verbally slap me around about it. In fact I purposely avoided talking to the guys who were saying "you gotta just go get that dude!"


If you can control yourself to a degree of self-harm and eventual fatality (which is a lot of control) then why not do it the other way and change your perception of the world to apreciate its beauty and be happy? - smurf
If scam does have OCD that would explain it. My Sis who has the psych. degree also has OCD. She is diagnosed as being a "high functioning OCD patient" but that really doesn't make it any easier. OCD can manifest in a number of ways. My sister has what's called "ruminating thoughts". I'll not go into great detail, you can Google it if you are interested. In general, ruminating thoughts means that a person will obsess on just one idea or one statement someone made etc. Like say someone at school or work makes a comment about a person's shoes. Someone without OCD might think about it all day and even tell other people how rude that person was but eventually they just forget about it or it loses it's emotional impact. A person with OCD that manifests as ruminating thoughts will take that comment and play it over and over in their head word for word and also generate anxiety about it. They may even act fairly strongly on the comment by taking the shoes off and throwing them away, maybe never buying that type of shoe again. That's a mundane example that I just came up with but it should get the point across. I really don't want to site a more serious example because I don't want to give scam any suggestions as to what to obsess on. I don't even know if he experiences OCD in that particular way. Problem is I think it's usually the more negative thoughts that tend to freak a person out some that they obsess on. I think it's the emotional charge connected with the thought that starts the ruminating thoughts going. One thing is for sure, when my Sister got on the right medicine, it made a world of difference. She is way more balanced and happy now when she takes her medicine. Some people will need to have a family member or someone to help monitor and make sure they are taking the meds. There's some frustrating side effects and there's also the tendency for a person to think well I havne't had any symptoms at all for a long time so why am I taking this medicine?" and when they stop taking it they crash right back into the symptoms. It's very important to discuss it with the psychiatrist or medical doctor before going off the medicine or adjusting the dosage.

Hope this helps. And again scam, sorry if I stomped on your toes a little too hard over in the other thread.

[Smurf]

yes yes of course, perhaps I should have speficied
I said that with the intention of relating it to people who have no real mental condition. Just people who have thought so much and their depression is purely psychological, not organic.

[scameter]

Hope this helps. And again scam, sorry if I stomped on your toes a little too hard over in the other thread.

That would require me having toes. :)

I said that with the intention of relating it to people who have no real mental condition. Just people who have thought so much and their depression is purely psychological, not organic.

Is psychology not organic?

[namtso]

That would require me having toes.
The sum total of what I do know about everyone on this web site discussion board compared to what I don't know is about the same as what a single hydrogen molecule is compared to the entire vast expanse of known space.

[______]

The sum total of what I do know about everyone on this web site discussion board compared to what I don't know is about the same as what a single hydrogen molecule is compared to the entire vast expanse of known space.
Nice! I feel the same way, but you make it sound so much better than I could have! :lol:

[...]

QUOTE
..so true, and i have no clue why the OP would bring this issue to an internet forum if the contemplation was sincere... - dots

Thing is, some people will sort of broadcast their pain even if it's by saying they were contemplating suicide, in order to hopefully get someone to listen to them and maybe offer some help. I looked up a girl I used to date on Classmates.com about a year ago. I got to talking to her on the phone all the time, I told people about it at work until they were flat sick of hearing it. The real reason I told people about it was because I really wanted to fly out and see her but I knew it was wrong because she's married right now. I needed to have other people affirm what I already knew was right and to help push me in the right direction. I didn't want to muck up her marriage, plus she's got two young daughters by the new husband. She was also starting to get too upset with the complications I was introducing. She got to the point where she said we should take a month off from talking. I said sure. She never called back and I haven't called her. It's absolutely for the best. I had really just become hypnotized by her charm all over again and I relied on the guys at work to verbally slap me around about it. In fact I purposely avoided talking to the guys who were saying "you gotta just go get that dude!"

..well, suicide is in a whole differerent ballpark, don't you think? Crying out for attention is one thing, but to flaunt suicide as a means of getting it rubs me the wrong way, to be honest. Don't mean to imply that was the case here, but there you go...

[Arctic-Stranger]

Forgive me if this has been said before but, in terms of suicide....it is not polite to go where you are not invited.

[namtso]

..well, suicide is in a whole differerent ballpark, don't you think? Crying out for attention is one thing, but to flaunt suicide as a means of getting it rubs me the wrong way, to be honest. Don't mean to imply that was the case here, but there you go... dots
I don't think so. An intelligent person often has the tendency to not to want to bother other people about their mental problems or depression. An attempted suicide that fails is a stark way of letting others know that depression has gotten to the point of being unbearable. Ideally, a person would transform some of that energy of depression into anger, at least enough to break loose for a minute and say "Hey! I need some help over here!" It's really much less important whether the person had really intended to succeed in the suicide attempt. It's an extreme act no matter what and other people need to take notice and help out if they give a damn. Ideally the person contemplating suicide would have enough lucidity and energy to go to someone who cares and is capable of helping before it gets to that point. But you see, that's the problem with extreme depression. When you're in it, you practically have no energy. It feels physically real like you are being weighed down by a ten ton weight. In that state of mind it's really difficult to think logically "hey, I need to really go and make myself heard and let people know I'm in a major crisis here". That's why it's important for others that know the person to recognize the signs and step in. Politeness and embarrassment be damned. Don't let a drowning person drown. And don't get pissed at a person for having a problem. There's a lot more ways to get attention than attempting suicide. Get a Mohawk haircut and die your hair green. Wear all of your clothes inside out. Do all that crazy crap before considering suicide. But my point is don't be so selfish as to get mad at another person who is in such extreme pain that they are attempting suicide. If it becomes ongoing behavior that does not change, then of course that person needs to get into some kind of program and probably needs to be on meds (that's not a prescription, go see a psychologist or therapist). I feel like I'm rambling, but I'm kind of angry with that statement and I want to make sure to get all this out. No offense, I've just seen people in pain and it's necessary to step out of yourself for a minute in order to show a little compassion. Granted, this is just a bulletin board and we all operate on the honor system. We can all be exaggerating or even faking everything we say. But truth is truth braddah. Someone who really needs it may read something here that might help and that makes it worth the time, yes?


Forgive me if this has been said before but, in terms of suicide....it is not polite to go where you are not invited. - Arctic-Stranger
Please be a little more specific as to what you mean in that statement.

[scameter]

Forgive me if this has been said before but, in terms of suicide....it is not polite to go where you are not invited.

If we followed this entirely, we would never willingly go anywhere or do anything; we would simply sit and do nothing, and would probably die from thirst. Does only going where you're invited count with inanimate objects too?

[Smurf]

Is psychology not organic?

not exactly, there is a difference

In Psychology we can refer to reasons behind issues of the psyche. There are organic reasons (damage to the brain etc) or Psychological reasons (Thought processes have resulted in the said issue) :)

[...]

But my point is don't be so selfish as to get mad at another person who is in such extreme pain that they are attempting suicide.

..i don't consider it selfishness because those who are determined to commit to suicide will do so regardless of others. Altough i don't object to suicide persé, i do feel it is an utterly selfish thing to do. I've known depression and contemplated suicide but happily concede that there are levels of depression i've not been subjected too. IMO, living in 1st world nations, you have no reason to kill yourself except for mental issues, and that is no reason at all. Failing to see one can grow out of it, that through therapy and honest intent depression can be overcome and life can be bareable again, is a point that has to hit home before one can adress the mental issues. That may be tough love, but sometimes it's the only way to get through to people...

[namtso]

.i don't consider it selfishness because those who are determined to commit to suicide will do so regardless of others. Altough i don't object to suicide persé, i do feel it is an utterly selfish thing to do. I've known depression and contemplated suicide but happily concede that there are levels of depression i've not been subjected too. IMO, living in 1st world nations, you have no reason to kill yourself except for mental issues, and that is no reason at all. Failing to see one can grow out of it, that through therapy and honest intent depression can be overcome and life can be bareable again, is a point that has to hit home before one can adress the mental issues. That may be tough love, but sometimes it's the only way to get through to people...

I see your point I guess but I think that it's not the right tactic to be critical of a person who is contemplating suicide. I understand tough love but I think that by it's very nature it has got to be utilized by someone in direct physical contact with the person who is suicidal. If I were to just criticize someone on this forum for having suicidal thoughts, I might very well just be adding to their depression and pushing them further towards actually trying it. Of course I don't use this as a reason to not be critical about anything. And I obviously deal out some venom periodically myself so I'm not innocent in that respect although I'm trying to dial it down.

My point is just this. State that a person who has suicidal tendencies does always have options other than suicide. Tell them what those options are. Don't coddle the person and give them the quick emotional fix of a warm fuzzy but at the same time don't berate them and contribute to their depression either. Encourage that person to get professional help and say it over and over again. That may be the thing that saves a life.

[...]

If I were to just criticize someone on this forum for having suicidal thoughts, I might very well just be adding to their depression and pushing them further towards actually trying it.
..the OP should speak out on this, because i don't agree with you . I'm generalizing ofcourse, and you could argue that you should never run the risk of pushing someone too far, but i don't believe that someone who is bringing his/her suicide plans to an internetforum is determined to actually do it, or that s/he will be pushed over the edge by honesty...

[b]State that a person who has suicidal tendencies does always have options other than suicide.

..this i agree with :)

[scameter]

So, thought is not organic?

[namtso]

..the OP should speak out on this, because i don't agree with you [but i do understand where you're coming from]. I'm generalizing ofcourse, and you could argue that you should never run the risk of pushing someone too far, but i don't believe that someone who is bringing his/her suicide plans to an internetforum is determined to actually do it, or that s/he will be pushed over the edge by honesty...
- dots
I do get your point.

My Sis tried to O.D. on aspirin once and it scared the living crap out of me so maybe you can better understand my strong feelings about this subject. I'll not describe the feeling here that I had when my Mother and I drove away to leave her in a hospital for a week of observation. You can likely imagine.

By all means, I would also like to hear the opinions of others on this important subject.

[Smurf]

So, thought is not organic?

Not in psychological terms. No
Organic as I said is used to refer to diseases such as Alzheimer's Disease which is a progressive degenerative disease. Whereas there are other conditions that are caused psychologically, by certain thought patterns etc...

[...]

My Sis tried to O.D. on aspirin once and it scared the living crap out of me so maybe you can better understand my strong feelings about this subject. I'll not describe the feeling here that I had when my Mother and I drove away to leave her in a hospital for a week of observation. You can likely imagine.

..if this gets too personal just say so, but did she know that OD'ing on aspirin requires ALOT of aspirin? Was it a cry for attention without a real desire to die? Did you know she was contemplating suicide? How is she doing now? I have no first hand experience with attempted suicide, so i'm asking to educate myself...

[MidnightSun]

i don't consider it selfishness because those who are determined to commit to suicide will do so regardless of others

If a person mentions that he has thoughts about suicide, it means that he wants to get better.

If a person trys to kill himself it does not always mean that he dont want to live.

[...]

If a person mentions that he has thoughts about suicide, it means that he wants to get better.

If a person trys to kill himself it does not always mean that he dont want to live.

..that's my point exactly, isn't it? The attempt isn't aimed at actually dying, but to draw attention to the fact one is emotionally drowning. This is why i don't believe such a person will succeed in commiting suicide because their intent is aimed at life, not death. The few examples of suicide in my hometown all came out of nowhere, so to say. There was no indication that suicide was contemplated, altough people knew that the situation they were in was far from ideal. The mere fact that someone is asking for help in this way however, should be indication enough that something is wrong, and help should be offered...

[namtso]

..if this gets too personal just say so, but did she know that OD'ing on aspirin requires ALOT of aspirin? Was it a cry for attention without a real desire to die? Did you know she was contemplating suicide? How is she doing now? I have no first hand experience with attempted suicide, so i'm asking to educate myself...
* -* dots

I'm not telling you my sister's name etc. so hopefully that eliminates that as a concern although I am telling her story which has the potential of causing a problem at some point. This is too important for me to worry about whether or not it's too personal for me. And here again we get into the sticky business of actually talking about how to commit suicide and there's no way I want to do that in any detail. I'm not into teaching people how to do that and I'm pretty disgusted about reading where others have done this in this thread. My sister is damn intelligent, I can only assume she knew. I can't speak as to her state of mind at the time because she has not talked to me about it. I kind of doubt she ever will either. When we were younger, I was not the nicest guy in the world and I'd fly into rages. Now that I'm older, she knows I honestly care about her but I still don't think she trusts me enough to confide. So that issue has never been raised. When it happened, my Mother found my sister passed out. It's been a while now and my memory is fading but I seem to remember that I was at work and got a call from my Mother. I think they called the paramedics and revived her, took her vitals and then got her to the hospital. Again it's been a while but I think they probably pumped her stomach there at the apartment before they took her to the hospital. I met my Mother at the hospital and went in to a hospital room where she was with my Mother. I'm not sure if it's California law but they didn't let her come back home, they kept her for the period of observation. She ended up staying in for about a week or so. I think she decided to stay a little beyond the mandatory time period. What I do remember is that she was having an extremely bad time with the OCD. Imagine having painful obsessive negative thoughts playing over and over again in your mind and you are nearly powerless to stop them. That's the kind of thing she was going through at the time. She has since found a better medicine that works way better for her. The medicine also has pretty strong side effects that adversely affect a persons health but right now it's the only thing that really helps her. They're coming up with new drugs all the time and hopefully they'll make one that eliminates at least the more dangerous side effects. If I were to make a guess, I'd say yes, she wanted to succeed and yes she wanted to be saved. That's the point I'm trying to make here. A person who goes to the extreme of trying this sort of thing just wants out of the pain they are experiencing. Whether it's getting help or suceeding at suicide, at that point it's all the same. The main thing is getting out of that extreme emotional pain.

That is the point.

What it comes down to is this. Say you know the person that attempts suicide. You care about them deeply. What do you do next? Do you chew them out? And what does that accomplish? It is often instinctive for a family member or close friend to chew somebody out when they try something like that. I'm not naive, the emotions are running extremely high for everyone involved. But honestly, the best way to react is sort of on a more clinical level. I'm saying sort of. You don't want to all of the sudden become an emotionless robot. And I'm really talking about how I would handle it if I were dealing with this again, but you need to be supportive and caring but at the same time you really need to take this unwavering attitude of "ok, what do we need to do to fix this?". That's it man. If you care enough to want to see that person alive, you have to take that attitude and do whatever is necessary. If that means leaving that person in an institution for several weeks or in a detox center or whatever, that's what you need to do. Period. Extreme times require extreme measures. That's it.

It is completely counterproductive to place any kind of blame on a person who has attempted suicide. Let's really examine this. What are you going to say or ask a person who attempted suicide? Why did you do that? Didn't you realize that it's very hard to kill yourself with aspirin? What else did you take? How many times have you tried this? Why didn't you come to us first before this? What could possibly be so bad that you figured this was the only solution? Don't you know we love you? We are always here for you, why would you do this?

What type of answer do you expect from a person who is so tormented that they tried suicide? Come on man! Here's what you are actually going to get. You have a person who is incredibly embarrassed that they tried this thing, failed and then they are under the microscope. The painful thoughts and feelings are still there, for the time being at least unless the person has been given strong medication that pretty much dopes them up. And how does a person answer questions like that? Was it a rational action for them to try it in the first place when there were other options? Probably not. But the state of mind of a person going through that kind of emotional crisis does not rely on logic at all. The single thing that guides all actions is the thought that I am in extreme emotional pain right now that will not stop and I can't make it stop. Escape. That's the goal. Escape from the present. Sometimes the situation just requires another person to take over. You should also know that usually what happens with a person who has attempted suicide is that they also feel like they are being a burden on the people around them. This creates a feeling of extreme guilt which only serves to add to their emotional pain. The danger is that they'll just want to escape that much more. You really have to let them know that you are there to help them out and it's no problem. You are perfectly willing to help and it's NO inconvience.

So ask yourself. How do you deal with the situation if you know someone who has just made a failed suicide attempt? Right now. What is your next move? Do you criticize and berate them? Let's say that's what you do. Your attitide to the person is openly "you know there's better ways of doing this, so just do that". Not very supportive, is it. And then consider this. Let's say that same person suceeds at the suicide the next time. That's it man, it's over. There's no second chances to talk it out. No second chances to try to understand what that person was going through. No second chances to lend a sympathetic helping hand and say "hey, follow me, let's go get some professional help and try to solve this problem together." Really, what you are considering is to be angry with a person who has tried to kill themselves. That is one of the most blatant expressions of selfishness I can imagine. Switch the roles and try to imagine yourself in the other person's position. Try to think of a time when you were extremely sad. Worst day of your life kind of stuff. Now multiply that feeling times about ten and then imagine that no matter what you try, you can't stop feeling that way. That's maybe just a glimpse of what it's like for someone who is in such a deep depression or state of anxiety that they feel suicide is the only realistic option available to them. I hope no one ever goes through that but it's vitally important that you understand what it means for another person to go through it. It may be the very thing that makes the difference in saving a person's life.

It's also important to say here that if there's anyone who has had someone close to them who has suceeded in suicide, you were only able to act on the knowledge you had at the time. You were only capable of doing what you were equipped to do. We are all human and we are all just doing the best we can. That's it.


__________________________________________________ __________________


And to anyone who is personally going through the type of emotional pain I am describing, you need to TALK to someone you trust and convince them that you need to get some professional help BEFORE you let it get so bad that you are in crisis. Forget about embarrassment, forget about being a burden on others, act NOW. You are not the only person who has ever gone through this and you ARE worthy of getting help. Get in to see a therapist or psychologist, even a regular medical doctor right now. Unfortunately some medical doctors will not take a person real seriously. You may need to sit right there in their office and convince them so they give you a referral. Don't hold back any details, you will only be hurting yourself.

[namtso]

..that's my point exactly, isn't it? The attempt isn't aimed at actually dying, but to draw attention to the fact one is emotionally drowning. This is why i don't believe such a person will succeed in commiting suicide because their intent is aimed at life, not death. The few examples of suicide in my hometown all came out of nowhere, so to say. There was no indication that suicide was contemplated, altough people knew that the situation they were in was far from ideal. The mere fact that someone is asking for help in this way however, should be indication enough that something is wrong, and help should be offered...


When you say that the few examples of suicide in your hometown came out of nowhere, I'm afraid you are probably misinterpreting what actually happened. I'm not being nasty here, I'm going to explain what is likely the reality of the situation.

For a family that has a family member commit suicide, the instinct is for them to not discuss it. They might be embarrassed and they also might feel extremely guilty like they failed somehow. That's actually the norm. From the outside it often appears as if the suicide was totally unexpected and "came out of the blue". A person's cultural upbringing often comes into play here too. If you grew up in an area where people are not naturally open about what's going on with them, like in some parts of Northeastern U.S. or even some parts of the Midwest United States, and just in certain families for that matter, then you are not likely to even get a single glimpse of the real story. This is very important and you need to get this point. Your impression of what happened and what actually happened are USUALLY completely different. A family might even know that the person was having extreme difficulty but just felt powerless or ill equipped to do anything about it. OR the person going through it does not want to burden anyone else so they hide it which is often the case. That's why it is so important to read any clues you might get from a person and just ASK them "hey, what's going on with you?" Even just "how's it going?" will be enough to bring it out of them if the person you are talking to knows you well and trusts you with personal stuff. And if you are getting the feeling that they are holding back, press them some. You'll start to be amazed at how many times your instincts were correct. Truth is we are in fact well equipped to pick up on subtle clues like this. You just need to train yourself to be aware. I'm not saying bug the crap out of someone every single week every time you think they might be a little perturbed about something, that would just cause problems. You will get better at it the more you practice it, more receptive at reading body language and just knowing what clues a particular person will give. And don't turn it into something that you obsess on, just keep it in mind. You have a life to live and enjoy too. I'm just saying you need to make sure you are aware of these things.

Also, for the guys, dump the macho crap if you think a friend is genuinely in crisis. You acting like a tough guy with no emotions will not help the situation. And there are still ways to ask a question without appearing wimpy if that's what you are concerned about. You can still be the tough macho stud while pressing another person to spill the beans. Perfect examples of this are Police Officers and Fire Fighters. You wouldn't really accuse them of being wimps, would you. But they are also very skilled at getting to the bottom of a situation. Sort of like a therapist with a gun, ha ha. I'm not saying go "hey ya wimp, what the #@%%'s going on with you?" while punching them in the arm (unless that has worked in the past, ha ha.) I'm just saying you can stay in your macho king of the hill "character" while continuing to be persistent at the same time. And dump any sort of embarrassment you might have about what others think about you if you give a crap about this sort of thing. We're still talking about extreme situations here that require extreme actions. If it looks like a person just has indigestion, you might be able to let that slide, eh? Like I said, if you really know the person well, you will probably know if something is really up. Then again, there's lots of people out there who are really skilled at hiding things. Sometimes you aren't going to know and that's just a reality.

[...]

..altough these 2 last posts are insightful and show an empathic, caring person, they also project guilt and emotion. I totally agree with the message they convey namtso, but i won't respond to them as if they were meant for me. I wish you, and your sister, all the best...

[namtso]

..altough these 2 last posts are insightful and show an empathic, caring person, they also project guilt and emotion. I totally agree with the message they convey namtso, but i won't respond to them as if they were meant for me.
Why do you think so? I definitely have strong feelings about this subject. I feel very strongly about this issue but I also happen to believe I'm correct. As far as any personal guilt ... ehhhhh, maybe some but not much. No more than normal I'd think. I know that my sister goes through her challenges daily and has to make sure she keeps taking her meds. I also know that I have been a real "butt" when I was younger. But I'm not the same jerk I was back then. I'm a different jerk now, ha ha. Seriously though, while she went through that particular event and the entire time she has had to deal with her OCD, which is of course ongoing, has been a continuing education for me. As to the current relationship between me and my sister, I'd say it's pretty much average. We get along great when we aren't living with each other, she is often very blunt about telling me her opinion about stuff, I do the same. She hides things from me when she doesn't want to hear me getting judgmental and I understand that and don't usually sweat it unless it turns out that it was about something very serious. She and I get along pretty good on the whole. I care about her and I'm fairly certain she cares about me. And she's one of the funniest and most intelligent people I know. I never felt any kind of personal responsibility for her suicide attempt. Also, due to her OCD, she has gone through years of struggling with depression, with all the crying, lethargic behavior, lack of caring about stuff, all of it. It would have been very difficult to tell the difference between the challenges she had always faced and a state of mind that was clearly worse. In fact for her it may have even been that she had been dealing with her OCD for so long that she finally just came to a point where she said to herself "that's it, I just can't deal with this any more". I don't really remember any sort of distinct sign she gave that I can remember and identify, even when looking back on it, that would seem to have indicated that she was going to try that. I don't think she has ever said anything like she thinks we could have done something to stop her. Not that I'm aware of anyway. The only really lingering emotion I have in this regard is just the sadness I feel in remembering what she went through when she tried it. That still really hits home and I hope she never has to fall that deep ever again. The truly great news is that the medicine she is taking right now does help her quite a bit. It makes the OCD bearable for her which is huge.

As to whether or not my comments are meant for you specifically dots, you are right they aren't. They are meant for you and for anyone else who happens to read them. I would like you to address specific points so I have the chance to reply. And I also want to make very clear that even though I may sound like I'm playing a tough guy or something, I'm actually pretty decent in my humble opinion, haha. By all means, I welcome anyone to take pot shots at what I've said here. I am here to learn as much as I am here to spew my pseudo-authoritative sounding blather. In all seriousness, if I can learn something more of value here in regard to this issue, by all means anyone or everyone, jump in. Even it it's just to agree or disagree.

I wish you, and your sister, all the best...
Thanks, same back at ya

[Arctic-Stranger]

I was asked to elaborate on my comment about not going where you are invited....

I first heard it on Northern Exposure. Ed, one of the characters, starts talking about death, and someone asks him if he is considering suicide. "No," he says, "Indians never go where they are not invited."

Death is clearly a part of our journey. Some of us have some say over how and when we die. More than once I have seen patients "choose" the time of their death. But this is in the context of some kind of terminal illness, and what it usually means is that they have come to terms with their own death, and are ready to make the transistion.

Others have little or no choice in how and when they die. (The six year old boy who was killed in an automobile accident last week, for instance.)

There are various reasons for suicides. Some people do it to get attention. Some people do it out of anger or frustration, usually mixed with alchohol. Some people just hurt too much to keep on going. Some people do it to avoid the consequences of their actions. But.....

a) Few people thinks mundane thoughts like.. who is going to find the body...or who is going to clean up the mess. (The first time I saw a suicide by shooting, my first thought was, "I did not know a human being had that much blood in them." It literally covered one wall, and most of the floor.) Every suicide by gun shot wounds means that the carpet in the house has to be replaced. Every suicide has to be found by someone, and that someone is usually a family member, and no matter how hard you try, it may not be the person who you want to find you. (And let me tell you, it can do a number on a kid's head, to see one of their parents dead by their own hand.)

B) Most people who commit suicide are too caught up in the moment to see a possible better future. I heard an interview with a man who survived jumping off the Bay Bridge. He said, that as he plummeted downward, he realized that all of his problems really could be solved...except for one...that he had just jumped off this bridge. Most suicides are impulsive. Even if a person has been considering it, they very rarely plan their death, they just take advantage of a moment. (There are some exceptions to this rule.)

c) most attempted suicides do not succeed. If the person is lucky they are just left with an expansive hangover and and expensive hospital bill. But sometimes they are left with half a face, or a digestive system that no longer works, or one third of their previous mental capacity. Needless to say, these symptoms will really mess up your day.

None of what I have said is applicable to people with terminal illnesses. That is a totally different category, and, at least for me, more morally ambiguious.

All that having been said, to "punish" the person after their death, i.e. not allowing a Christian funeral or whatnot, merely punishes the living, and of all the deaths I encounter, suicides are the most devastating to the surviviors.

[Michael]

More than once I have seen patients "choose" the time of their death. But this is in the context of some kind of terminal illness, and what it usually means is that they have come to terms with their own death, and are ready to make the transistion.

I gather that your work brings you in contact with the terminally ill. When I was young I was in hospital with some very ill children. One little girl stood out, her arms and legs were paralysed, she was dying, but she was full of life and joy. It was like she had an important appointment about which she was joyfull and excited, she seemed to be in a state of delighted expectancy. She was the heart and soul of the ward.

Have you come across this in other individuals who were close to death?

[Michael]

More than once I have seen patients "choose" the time of their death. But this is in the context of some kind of terminal illness, and what it usually means is that they have come to terms with their own death, and are ready to make the transistion.

I gather that your work brings you in contact with the terminally ill. When I was young I was in hospital with some very ill children. One little girl stood out, her arms and legs were paralysed, she was dying, but she was full of life and joy. It was like she had an important appointment about which she was joyfull and excited, she seemed to be in a state of delighted expectancy. She was the heart and soul of the ward.

Have you come across this in other individuals who were close to death?

Don't mean to break the continuety of this important thread.

[Arctic-Stranger]

Occasionally. And ironically, their particular choice of faith has little to do with how they approach death.

Too often, people have been kept alive far beyond the point where they could actually enjoy death. I have vowed that, unlike Woody Allen, when I die, I want to be there.

[Michael]

Too often, people have been kept alive far beyond the point where they could actually enjoy death. I have vowed that, unlike Woody Allen, when I die, I want to be there.

That was the point about the little girl who died, it wasn't ideological, it was about moving on with a joyous heart and a happy mind. Mind you, I don't find it at all ironic, but beautiful, inspiring, uplifting and most of all - true.

I too want to be there when I die, to give myself up, let go of the world and accept the unfolding.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead deals with this point in life in great depth as does the Book of Living and Dying(I really must finish reading them).

I believe that dying can be a wonderfully positive experience in the right time and place.

But to die in the despair of suicide (when it is despairing) can only lead to further despair on both sides of the great divide.

As to our extending life and the way we do it, I think that is probably a discussion for another thread.

Regarding your comment on patients who "choose" the time of their deaths, would these be Inuits by any chance?

[amadman]

I have a history of depression and reach some very low lows.

What has always kept me from killing my self is the thought that I am going to die someday.

Death is guaranteed. Life is not. I will take the good and bad until the inevitable comes.

[namtso]

I have a history of depression and reach some very low lows.
Sorry to hear that. Do you have access to health care, health insurance?

[amadman]

Thanks for the concern namtso.

When I was younger it was real tuff. But now that I am older and have experienced it enough I have learned how to deal with and work around it.

Its basicly like I am on a rollercoaster. And just like the real thing if you ride it long enoungh you can get used to it. Though it still makes some things difficult even after you are. For example drinking a glass of water on a real rollercoaster. Which you could work around by using a squeeze bottle.


I have tried meds but never like the way they changed me. So I try to avoid them unless things get pretty bad.

[namtso]

Its basicly like I am on a rollercoaster. And just like the real thing if you ride it long enoungh you can get used to it. Though it still makes some things difficult even after you are. For example drinking a glass of water on a real rollercoaster. Which you could work around by using a squeeze bottle.
Sounds like bipolar disorder?

I have tried meds but never like the way they changed me. So I try to avoid them unless things get pretty bad.
I understand. Some of those medicines can put a person in a fog, make them sleepy all the time, cause weight gain, increase the chance of getting diabetes and the list goes on. Hopefully they will continue to improve the meds and you'll be able to find one that works better for you. Best of luck.

[Joel]

I think suicide is wrong, plain and simple.

I have a lot of reasons for thinking that but I won't go into great details. Basically, I think life is a time to prepare for whatever is ahead when we die. I believe that you shouldn't go running into the great unknown (the afterlife) as it is just that, unknown. You have no idea what is ahead and you should spend as much time as possible preparing for whatever it is that is ahead.

Suicide is vulgar and the 'happy dance' of a fool. (No, i'm not sure if that makes any sense.)

[Arctic-Stranger]

I am not sure this has ever been said better:

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--

[namtso]

To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub
Kind of a good motivator to explore what your philosophical/religious view is, isn't it.

[Kether]

Basically, I think life is a time to prepare for whatever is ahead when we die.
And what if death is the end of consciousness? It's perfectly possible - I might even make so bold as to say it is very probable - so there is a good chance that preparing for the afterlife is a waste of time. Given this fact, I would rather not devote my time here to obsessing about what will happen to me after I die. I would rather devote my intellect, energy and life to building a better society, and pursuing my own happiness through science and art, than 'preparing' for an afterlife.
I believe that you shouldn't go running into the great unknown (the afterlife) as it is just that, unknown. You have no idea what is ahead and you should spend as much time as possible preparing for whatever it is that is ahead.
This dialectic is pretty weird. Doesn't the fact that we have no idea what is ahead mean that we can't prepare for it? How can we prepare for something we know nothing about?

[Arctic-Stranger]

To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub

Kind of a good motivator to explore what your philosophical/religious view is, isn't it.


Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream.

[namtso]

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream.

Except when I stub my toe, or my ego.

[Starry_Canopy]

Life is but a dream

What, if sometimes, life is a nightmare? Is it wrong for one to want to wake up? :)

I once wanted to. I wanted to walk out into the sea and keep walking till I drowned. Life was a nightmare.

I checked with my wife and she said that she and our kids (2) would never be able to reconcile themselves to it if I did that. I thought that it was better that only I had a nightmare and not all 3 of them and who knew, how many more (siblings, parents, etc.) and desisted and informed her not to worry.

But if I had been alone, I wonder.....

[namtso]

What, if sometimes, life is a nightmare? Is it wrong for one to want to wake up?

I once wanted to. I wanted to walk out into the sea and keep walking till I drowned. Life was a nightmare.

I checked with my wife and she said that she and our kids (2) would never be able to reconcile themselves to it if I did that. I thought that it was better that only I had a nightmare and not all 3 of them and who knew, how many more (siblings, parents, etc.) and desisted and informed her not to worry.

But if I had been alone, I wonder.....
- Starry_Canopy

I would say that it is probably a normal desire to want to "wake up" or have relief from suffering. No one I'm aware of wants to exist in a state of prolonged pain. It seems that it took great strength for you to continue on instead of leaving this corporeal world. You make an excellent point. The people around you would have been profoundly affected for well into the future. It's good that you invited your wife into your decision. Is there a happy ending for you here, at least in the present? Things have gotten better since then? Can you talk about what has improved for you or if there were additional factors that helped you get through the crisis?

[Starry_Canopy]

Hi Namtso, sorry for the delay in replying....

Is there a happy ending for you here, at least in the present? Things have gotten better since then? Can you talk about what has improved for you or if there were additional factors that helped you get through the crisis?

Yes, thank you, things are ok now and improving. I am gradually getting out of my debts, too, while ensuring that my family's needs are being reasonably met.

It did not improve immediately, but over time. For some months the dire situation continued to prevail, but there was a purpose for my suffering; I was continuing to keep alive for being available for my wife and kids, who would miss me and feel disoriented if I had done the bunk.

My intimacy with God also increased, as I found more time for doing meditataion and spending more time doing Divine Service at a Spiritual Centre.

Then the Miracle happened, of which I have written in "Does God exist", of gold dust materialising out of thin air. Experiencing the wonder of that, I became convinced that if God could produce gold dust out of thin air to answer my desire for winessing a miracle, He/ She could surely get me a job! So, I felt at peace and started thinking that the fact I was unemployed was not an instance of injustice, but for some purpose I couldn't clearly fathom, maybe for me to experience certain things that would, in some way, be beneficial for me.

One clear benefit was that I knew first hand how dispossessed people suffered. How uncaring most people in the world are, including myself, about other people's troubles. Who my true friends and well-wishers were; for most others just broke off all contact/ relationship with me, as if they thought that my disease of ill-luck was contagious! :) Or perhaps, they didn't have time for 'losing' in life as they were focussed on doing everything for 'winning', including the people with whom or for whom they had time. My grandpa once told me that "everthing in this world is measured by money, even relationships". At that time I had thought him overly cynical, but my experience of those days showed me that he had been correct to a very large extent.

The biggest benefit is that I am once more just a human being. My head does not get turned now by my 'designation', 'job', 'income', 'possessions', 'peer group' etc. I also feel very compassionate towards everyone and can see the human dignity in everyone, including those who have no option but to beg for their food. I was a beggar, too, when I borrowed money those days to survive, without any collateral.

A few months after the miracle, I also got a job and since then things have kept improving, materially also.

Thank you, Nam for wishing me well and caring to know that I was now ok.

[namtso]

Thank you, Nam for wishing me well and caring to know that I was now ok.
I suspected that it would be a very good story for us all to read. I was right. Thanks for sharing it.

[Starry_Canopy]

Thank you, Nam. It was good for me, too, to tell it. A kind of catharsis.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Most suicide attempts fail, and many suicide attempts merely leave the body damaged and leave the person in a worse mess than whatever they were in that caused the attempted suicide.

It would be a very serious mistake on the part of an individual if he commits suicide. It would seriously hamper his spiritual progress. It would also expose him to the risk of redoing in a more arduous way what he wanted to avoid in the first place.

I would really hate to have to do the last 37 years over.

Scameter and ... - it was highly irresponsible of you to respond by giving suggestions at how to kill one's self. There are no guarantees that any of it will work. There have been cases of people shooting themselves in the head and surviving - quite damaged, of course.

Psychiatrists are just MDs who only know about psyc meds. In America, they don't even have to take any courses in psychology. They did the same psych rotation as your GP.

Right now, psychologists can not prescribe meds, but regulations to change that are being considered.

Although a person who decides to attempt suicide will do so no matter who says what or what is done, one who is still considering whether or not suicide is a good idea might be willing to discuss it and be open to rational considerations - but not if they are ridiculed for their openness. Everyone who states that they are considering suicide must be taken seriously. Even if a case were to arise where someone was just "attention-seeking" by stating they are suicidal, that would indicate a serious problem as well - which would also deserve to be taken seriously. Even then, the person might be driven to a suicide attempt in order to "prove" that they were serious. Every stated consideration of suicide must be taken seriously.

Midnight Sun, I am glad that you were able to mention this to someone. If you - or anyone else - start feeling suicidal again, please talk with a counselor. Most places have a suicide hotline with specially trained volunteers who could do more to help you out than just posting on a message board. I'm sure the responses were frustratingly slow, and things could nto be discussed as in-depth as even a telephone conversation could address.

Suicide does not even guarantee a relief of pain, as mentioned by someone who suggested that the pain can reside in the soul rather than the body. Death is not guaranteed either. When we are functional enough to state what our pain is, we are most able to seek help to get relief from the pain. Although doing the intellectual work to relieve tha causes of pain is highly important, sometimes antidepressants are the only way to make the intellectual work possible, at least at first. There is help available, and there are tools available, but you must ask - and it is better to simply ask rather than ask by presenting to the hospital as a limp body that they might not be able to fix. Sometimes, the result of a suicide attemt is that the person must live the remainder of their lives drooling on themselves in a nursing home, having uncaring strangers change their adult diapers. Asking for help with words is a much better option.

[MidnightSun]

:)

[TheObjectiveSubjective]

Suicide is unplesant and painful. However people should have the right to do it. If you hate life that much, than really go ahead. You own your life, you make decisions, in the end you decide if you want to live that is your choice and you must live with that choice. I personaly would not hold it aganist a firend if they killed them selves. I would be sad, butI would at least be glad "their" pain ended.

[namtso]

Suicide is unplesant and painful. However people should have the right to do it. If you hate life that much, than really go ahead. You own your life, you make decisions, in the end you decide if you want to live that is your choice and you must live with that choice. I personaly would not hold it aganist a firend if they killed them selves. I would be sad, butI would at least be glad "their" pain ended. - TheObjectiveSubjective

You aren't addressing the possibility that the hating of life may only be a phase with true full blown enjoyment in life right around the corner. Even if it takes meds to get there. I really hated my high school years but after I graduated life got better for me and just continued to get better. The only reason I'm not really living it up big time right now is that I let my credit card bills get out of hand. When I get that licked I'm going to be getting my digital SLR camera and living it up again. Is it a biblical quote "this too shall pass"? All things are transient, even emotional pain. It might only be different if a person has a terrible physical illness and that's not what I'm personally interested in discussing here. That might be a topic for a different thread. Anyways, when a friend checks out it's way too late to even consider who might be angry with them. My definition of a true friend would be one that would help me find solutions to my pain, not one who tells me it's ok to commit suicide. This life is a gift even though it may not seem like it sometimes.

[______]

I think that if one truly does not wish to live, then they will fall dead on the spot. All will to live completly extinguished. If one thinks of commiting suicide, but is still alive to have such thoughts, then the will to live is still present. These thoughts are much like everything else: temporary.

[MidnightSun]

What about "Im gonig to kill myself if we're not going out together" ?

[Steven Coyle]

Sit with them in silence.

[namtso]

What about "Im gonig to kill myself if we're not going out together" ?
- midsun
Can you fill in some details?

Who's talking to who?

What are the ages of the two involved?

Why is "going out together" a life and death issue?

Have you already been seeing each other and if so how long?

And any other pertinent details that may give a more detailed picture. I'm not sure I would be able to help much but I'd bet there are some Big Viewers that will.

The "Sit with them in silence" advice from Steven Coyle is actually pretty dang good. It could have the effect of letting the other person know that you respect them as a human being but you just don't think a relationship would work out. Once the person relaxes some it may be necessary to talk about it some though just to anchor that sentiment, eh? We really need more information though.

[MidnightSun]

Its a person talking to other person, the second person loves the first one and the first one is getting backstabbed by the second one.

[namtso]

Its a person talking to other person, the second person loves the first one and the first one is getting backstabbed by the second one.

The advice that immediately comes to mind is that this is an unhealthy relationship and "they" should break it up and spend time with other folks that don't cause their stomach to go into contortions that might imitate the action of a kitchen garbage disposal. Dating was the single biggest source of emotional anguish for me that I can remember. That's my memory at least. My solution was to throw up my hands and just give it up. Probably the wrong decision specially if you ever want to have a family. A friend at work says the way he dealt with it was to just dive in and do a lot of dating. No steady girlfriend, no two timing, just dive in and date a whole lot. Helps you to learn the rules, learn how to "read" and understand girls, and learn what type of person you really mesh with. It's actually very good advice. And it's pretty important to know what kind of marriage her parents have. It may sound corny but seeing the parents can give you some insight into what the children have been exposed to and how it has probably influenced their personality. I should say though that spending time with a girl/woman was one of my most favorite things in the world, when things were going well that is. It's a very tricky business. It's extremely important to find someone you can trust and that you relate to on several different levels. Then it can be really great. Or so I'm told, ha ha. Anyhow, I'll end here since it's all conjecture. Short statement by you, long rambling response by me. I'd be very interested to see the opinions of others on this though.

[______]

Sit with them in silence.
I think this is still the best solution. ;) Hope "they" can work it out. And if not, "they" have the rest of "their" lives to get back together.

[namtso]

I think this is still the best solution. Hope "they" can work it out. And if not, "they" have the rest of "their" lives to get back together. - SFT
In the immediate present, yes I agree too. That's pretty good if it goes well. Depends on both involved though. High emotions can tend to rule the day. I'm not an expert in this dept. though, admittedly.

[______]

In the immediate present, yes I agree too. That's pretty good if it goes well. Depends on both involved though. High emotions can tend to rule the day. I'm not an expert in this dept. though, admittedly.
Emotions are the only thing we truly have complete control over. If one was to become heavily emotional during the discussion, the other should be mindful of their state of mind to help the situation resolve peacefully. Anger brings forth anger. One should always be mindful of how the other is feeling and act compassionatly. This will lead to a good outcome.

[Smurf]

Emotions are the only thing we truly have complete control over. If one was to become heavily emotional during the discussion, the other should be mindful of their state of mind to help the situation resolve peacefully. Anger brings forth anger. One should always be mindful of how the other is feeling and act compassionatly. This will lead to a good outcome.

We don't have complete control over our emotions! The argument in your post is flawed in the way that one person has no control over their emotions - the person who is becoming heavily angered. Then the next subject hints at having control over their emotions yet that comes under question through the flawed logic that is presented.

Emotions are what drives us, they are a form of communication and feeling. Definately we should be mindful of other's emotional states but that we have complete control over our emotions, we don't. If we did then we wouldn't need Self-help classes or psychiatrists treating for emotional unstability.

[______]

We don't have complete control over our emotions! The argument in your post is flawed in the way that one person has no control over their emotions - the person who is becoming heavily angered. Then the next subject hints at having control over their emotions yet that comes under question through the flawed logic that is presented.
Okay, maybe "total" control shouldn't be applied here, but we do have more control over our own emotions than anything else in all the universe. When one gets mad, they have the choice to take a step back and look at just why they feel mad and what they can do about it or give in to the anger and generate more anger which could lead to hate. Anger blinds us only if we let it. Some people who need those self-help classes are equally in control, but only need to be shown that that is the case.

[Smurf]

There are different levels of control, one person has more willpower to resist the urge to express their anger openly than other individuals. Also, what is the control over our emotions? Is it to stem the expression of the feeling - for to do so would be to limit our characteristics as being human. We need emotions to show that we are living feeling beings that react and respond to their environment, they help to create more diversity which is always a good thing.

[namtso]

I think the goal is at least to minimize the highs and lows and try to operate with a degree of actual detachment from the emotions. They can still have an impact but it can be lessened quite a bit.

[MidnightSun]

Since is the suicide thread I would like to discusss on one more question. I heard some people saying that they dont want to die but they cut their wrists to ease their pain. They say it actually helps, but why?

Maybe thats just some activity, they way to stop thinking and just concentrate on what ur doing.

[______]

My wife has a similar (less bloody) way to "ease the pain". She'll bite herself. I hate it when she does this. She's gotten better about it, but it hasn't gone away. I still don't know why she does it. Makes no sense to me. I'm in the same boat as you MidSun.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I did a paper on self injurious behavior for school once. You might find it interesting.
*********************************

Introduction

Self injury is a pervasive problem in every segment of society, so this paper will look into ways to manage a client who self injures. Self-Injury is significantly under-reported and misdiagnosed, but with such public admissions such as Princess Diana’s self-disclosure about her self-injurious behavior, greater awareness of this condition is arising (Deiter, 2000, p. 1174). 100 – 600 per 100,000 people deliberately harm themselves, according to some estimates (Isacsson, 2001, p. 213)). Minor self harm is much more common, with an approximate rate of 400 to 1,400 per 100,000 (Taimen, 1998, p. 211). Other estimates, as reported in an article by Deiter, Nichols, and Pearlman, are: 4% of the general population, 14% of a college sample, 40% of clients with bulimia (Deiter, 2000, p. 1174), up to 46% of individuals with mental retardation (Simeon, 2001, p.7), and up to 53 % of people with Tourettes (ibid, p. 14). Of various groups of normal infants and children, up to 23% displayed self-injurious behavior other than nail biting (Ross, 1979, pp. 22 -25) Nail biting peaked in normal youths at age 12 to a rate of 45% (ibid, p. 24). Some of the variance of percentages reported may be attributed to differences of specific acts that are included and questionable representativeness of the samples, but the literature commonly refers to the high frequency of self-injurious behavior (Ross, 1979, p. 20). According to the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, self-injury “appears to have become more popular lately, especially in adolescents” (AACAP, 1999). Since “most individuals who injure themselves will not do so in the presence of others” (Alderman, 1998, p. 2), it is particularly pertinent to remember that no one can help someone who self-injures unless that person wants to be helped. There is no single correct way to help someone stop harming themselves or harm themselves less frequently, and the best treatment option for each client has to be individually structured based on what the client believes will work best (Clarke, 1998, p. 136).


History

Self injury has been recorded as far back as the Judeo-Christian Bible. Matthew 5:29 appears to encourage self mutilation by telling the reader “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out.” Matthew 19:12 refers to genital mutilation by explaining “there are eunuchs born that way from their mother’s womb, there are eunuchs made so by men and there are eunuchs who have made themselves that way for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven” (Simeon, 2001, pp. 54-55). 1 Kings 18:28 states that the priests of Baal “began calling at the top of their voice and cutting themselves according to their custom.” Philippians 3:2 asks the believers to “avoid those mutilating the flesh.” Mark 9:43-47 tells believers “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off … and if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out”. Two centuries later, an Alexandrian theologian called Origen castrated himself to help himself maintain his spiritual discipline (Clarke, 1998, p. 130). In the Later Middle Ages, Blessed Clare of Rimini had herself bound to a pillar and whipped on Good Friday, Hedwig of Silesia scourged herself, Blessed Charles of Blois wrapped knotted cords around his chest, and Christina of Spoleto perforated her foot with a nail (Glucklich, n.d., p. 479).

There are also many historical instances of secular self-mutilation. Sixteenth and seventeenth century boys would choose castration to preserve their soprano voices (Ross, 1979, p. 32) Amazon women were named so due to their removal of their breasts (“Amazon” meaning “without breasts”) (ibid, p. 32). Arguably the most famous incidence of self-injury was Vincent van Gough, the famous artist who severed his right ear, and had it presented to a prostitute (Ross, 1979, 46 – 47).





Definitions
Co-morbidity – a disease coexisting with the primary disease.

Cutter – The most common way people self-injure is by cutting their skin, therefore those who self-injure are often referred to as cutters.

Deep Breathing and Visualization Exercises – a technique for relaxation and reducing the tension in a difficult situation. An example would be: Breathe in deeply. As you exhale, feel your tension run down your arms and legs. Feel the tension run over your hands and off the ends of your fingertips. Breathe in again, deeply, sitting up straight, and let it out. The tension is running off your fingertips, down your legs, and out of the soles of your feet.

Enucleate – remove (such as enucleate an eyeball)

Etiology – the cause of a disease.

Grooming Practices – socially accepted actions one takes with the intent of improving one’s appearance. Includes tattoos, body piercing, and plucking certain hairs (such as on the chin of a female).

Indirect self-injury – behaviors that increase likelihood of injury, but do not cause injury. includes problematic eating and elimination behaviors, substance abuse, neglect of medical needs, risky sexual behaviors, and risky nonsexual behaviors such as handling weapons, driving recklessly, and provoking aggression from dangerous others.

Parasuicide – also known as attempted suicide. an unsuccessful attempt to end one’s own life, or an unconscious or indirect suicide attempt. Includes risk-taking behavior.

Privacy – appropriate boundaries between an individual and others.

Secrecy – concealment.

Self Injury – also known as Self-Inflicted Violence, Self-Disfigurement, Self-Harm, Bodies Under Siege, and Self Mutilation. intentionally inflicting physical damage onto one’s self without the intention of killing one’s self. includes cutting, burning, excessive hair pulling, hitting, bruising, excessive nail biting, pulling nails out, breaking bones, interfering with the healing of wounds, head banging, deep scratching, injurious masturbation, hand bleaching, and piercing blood vessels.






Methods

There is an extensive list of self-injurious behavior, but some methods are more common than others. This writer will expound on this list so that the reader will better comprehend the otherwise difficult-to-imagine scope of this problem, but it would neither be possible nor practical to list every form of self-mutilation. Most commonly, people who moderately self-injure cut their own flesh, usually on the arms, hands, or legs, interfere with the healing of their wounds, excessively bite their nails, pull out their hair, hit or bruise themselves, or intentionally break their bones (Alderman, 1998, p. 1). Although arms are the most common site to be mutilated, people have been known to cut nearly any part of their bodies, including eyelids and genitalia (Ross, 1979, pp. 26 - 27). Other injuries include skin-picking (Simeon, 2001, p. 10) scratching, stabbing, scalding or burning themselves with fire, hot liquids, heated metal, electric shock, or caustic substances, mildly poisoning themselves (Allen, n.d., p. 1, Ross, 1979, p. 34-35), or ingesting indigestible objects such as needles or glass (Ross, 1979, p. 35). Constricting is another method of self-injury, but it could be classified as either major or minor, depending on the goal of the injurer. One could either constrict the flow of blood or air in one’s body. Blood flow can be constricted by winding rubber bands around body parts either to make the body parts numb, stiff and cyanotic or to cause the body parts to fall off. Blood flow can also be constricted through intentional frostbite. Strangulation is the method of constricting air flow in the body, and is sometimes done by teenage boys in the belief that it will increase sexual arousal during masturbation. This can lead to accidental suicide (ibid, p. 39 – 40).

Major self-injurious behaviors usually occur as isolated events (rather than recurrently like moderate self-injury) during states of psychosis, and include such behaviors as castration, eye enucleation, and amputation (Simeon, 2001, p. 8). The most common ocular injury is enucleation of the right eye, but enucleation of either or both eyes is only somewhat more common than gouging one’s eyes with either fingernails or sharp objects. Other forms of ocular self injury include but are not limited to using pressure on one’s eyes and dousing one’s eyes with caustic substances (Simeon, 2001, pp. 54-55).


Causes

According to clinicians and researchers, there are three categories of self-injury: part of a psychotic illness, links to an organic etiology, and moderate self-mutilation (Clarke, 1998, p. 129). In the first two categories, treatment of the underlying illness is linked to a reduction in self-harm (Isacsson, 2001, p. 214-215). Since it is counterproductive to directly attempt to stop a person from injuring himself or herself (Alderman, 1994, p. 3), it may be helpful to the treating practitioner to regard the self-injury of those in the third category as a symptom of a problem, rather than a problem of itself. The most commonly sited original predecessor to the third category of self-injury is childhood abuse, particularly childhood sexual abuse (Horsfall, 1999, p. 426-427, Low, 2000, p. 274-275, Deiter, 2000, p. 1175-1176). This could also have an organic component because when a child experiences repeated states of intense stress, permanent biochemical changes occur making it more difficult for the individual to return to his or her baseline biochemistry. The result is an addiction to adrenaline, so the individual participates in activities that increase his or her adrenaline level (Miller, 1994, pp. 56 – 57). It is in cases such as these that the self-injury is considered a reaction to Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (Miller, 1994, p. 4) or Trauma Reenactment Syndrome (Miller, 1994, pp. 26 – 27). An interesting finding among adolescent inpatients is that self-injurious behavior may be even more contagious than suicidal behavior (Taiminen, 1998, p. 212), particularly amongst teenage females with borderline personality disorder (BPD) because of the BPD tendencies toward self-mutilation and imitative behavior (ibid, p. 214). There are conflicting reports about whether or not an inadequate repertoire of coping skills is a contributing factor to self-injury (Haines, 1997, p. 182, Low, 2000, p. 272), but it has been concluded that self-injury can become an addictive behavior (Clarke, 1998, p. 132).

Although the above are base causes of self-injury, there are additional causes of each episode of self injury. These immediate predecessors to a self-injurious event are known as triggers. Frequently, interpersonal conflicts are a direct antecedent to each specific occurrence of self injury (Isacsson, 2001, p. 214). Behaviors such as cutting themselves help them relieve unbearable psychological pain (Miller, 1994, p. 49), and help them either escape numbness or achieve it (ibid, p. 51, and Ross, 1979, pp. 53 – 55). Another reason a person may decide to self-injure is boredom (Favell, 1981, p. 18). In high-risk groups such as teenage females with borderline personality disorder, social stresses such as changes in the room population precipitated incidences of self-injurious behavior (Taiminen, 1998, p. 215). The client may develop a need to communicate something, and chose to communicate by self-mutilation (Crowe, 2000, p. 5). Occasionally, the self-mutilator does his or her act for manipulation. The most common kind of this sort of manipulation is seen in institutionalized individuals who either desire a more comfortable environment (such as a hospital rather than a prison) or to remain in the care of a hospital rather than earning a living by a more conventional means (Ross, 1979, pp. 56 – 57).

There is a myriad of other reasons people self-injure. Isacsson and Rich suggest that a wish to die, escape, attention, manipulation, and disorders of substance use are factors (2001, p. 213-214). Alternatively, Clarke and Whittaker call self-injurious acts “cathartic and disciplined acts of self-preservation” (1998, p. 130) and that the preconceived notions of health care workers that self-injury is for attention or manipulation are not only incorrect, but acting on these preconceived notions leads to a worsening of the client’s condition (1998, pp. 135-136). More suggestions are: perceived re-enactment of trauma and a way of coping with dissociation (Low, 2000, p. 276), distress around interpersonal connection, affect, and self-esteem (Deiter, 2000, p. 1174), and emulation of someone famous (Glucklich, n.d., p. 482).


Treatment

There is a variety of approaches to treatment for self inflicted violence, but there are also some specific portions of treatment common to all of the approaches. The suggested treatment proposals ranges from dealing with dissociation (Low, 2000, p. 276) to accepting that cutting is something they do, and provide them with first-aid kits and clean blades (Clarke, 1998, p. 134). Although there is meager to no conclusive evidence on how to control self-injury (Isacsson, 2001, p. 213) and there is no clear connection between methods to cope with a problem and psychological symptoms (Haines, 1997, p. 177), there are suggested courses of action regarding self injury. The therapeutic interactions, as listed below, should begin long before ever meeting the client (Clarke, 1998, p. 133-134 and Horsfall, 1999, p. 430), and should be guided by the client (Clarke, 1998, p. 136).

According to Clarke, unconsciously conveying anything but an accepting approach can precipitate further acts of self-aggression in the client (1998, pp. 133-134). Horsfall concurs, and states that the more that caregivers are able to overcome their own fears regarding self-injury, the more therapeutic the interaction will be (1999, p. 430). When faced with a client who self injures, the caregiver should “avoid punitive and shaming responses; avoid expressing shock, disbelief, or horror; avoid being very solicitous, pitying, or engaged by the behavior. They should attempt to provide low-key, dispassionate, matter-of-fact, and medically appropriate care” (Deiter, 2000, p 1182).

By establishing a therapeutic relationship in this manner, the client will be able to accept that he or she is now in a safe, non-abusive environment (Horsfall, 1999, p. 427). The client feeling safe sets the groundwork for further interventions to be successful (Deither, 2000, p. 1184). This is in direct contrast to the non-therapeutic, counter-productive measures that self mutilators have experienced from the medical community such as being ridiculed or being made to endure having their cuts sutured without anesthetic (Clarke, 1998, p. 135, Horsfall, 1999, p. 430). The practitioner must recognize that having pain inflicted on a cutter is quite a different experience from the cutter cutting himself or herself. Being traumatized triggers the cutting (Deiter, 2000, p. 1175, Isacsson, 2001, p. 214) whereas some of the reasons cutters cut themselves is to regain control, or to obtain an illusion of control by re-enacting an abusive situation with the change that this time they are doing the abusing, so they can control how far it goes (Deiter, 2000, p. 1180-1181).

Various types of disclosure may or may not be therapeutic to self-injurers who are the grown victims of child abuse, but pressure to disclose information is not appropriate at the beginning of a therapeutic relationship (Miller, 1994, p. 92). If forced to disclose information the survivor is not emotionally ready to disclose, the person may feel violated by the unwelcome intrusion into her mind (Miller, 1994, pp. 87 – 88). When encouraging someone to speak about their self-injurious behavior, help the victim understand the difference between privacy and secrecy. Child abuse victims tend to be conditioned to keep their lives a secret, and may lie or demand the right to privacy to avoid dealing with the issue (Miller, 1994, pp. 80 – 81). The amount of secrecy and shame that occurs in conjunction with self-injurious behavior is directly related to the amount of acceptance that the self-injurer perceives (Alderman, n.d., p. 1). Disclosing this information in a safe environment can relieve the inner stress caused by keeping secrets, and sharing their stories in a group therapy session can build a bond between people who have similar experiences (Miller, 1994, pp. 82 – 84). In encouraging someone who has concealed these experiences, be careful to not distort their perceptions of their childhood, which could inadvertently plant false memories or place a barrier to the victim’s ability to communicate.(Miller, 1994, pp. 84 – 85). Although most cases of self-injury are not actual suicide attempts, the client’s risk for suicide should still be evaluated (Isacsson, 2001, p. 214). It is possible that a client who is intent on killing him or her self may try to disguise a failed suicide attempt in hopes of avoiding treatment. Clues that this may be the case include “a medically serious act of deliberate self harm” and suicidal communications before the injury such as giving away personal belongings or making comments like “I’ll never come back” (Isacsson, 2001, p. 214). At times, some people make “non-genuine” suicide attempts, in which the attempt appears more directed at others than at achieving death (Clarke, 1998, p. 131). It is recognized that some self-injurious behavior that was not intended to be suicide can lead to death through “overdose, infection, or other severe injuries” (Deiter, 2000, p. 1187).

There are multiple options to choose from as the next step in managing the care of an individual who self injures, but the best option in each situation will be the one selected by the client (Clarke, 1998, p. 136). The client must feel empowered to make his or her own decisions because control issues are a focal point of self-injurious behavior (Deiter, 2000, p. 1180, Alderman, 1998, p. 3, Haines, 1997, p. 183) so the client must have control of the situation given to him or her (Deiter, 2000, p. 1183). Ask the client an open ended question about what can be done to help (Alderman, 1998, p. 2). In the therapeutic setting, the client must be asked about their level of comfort with the surroundings, even including the level of noise in the area (Deiter, 2000, p. 1183). The extent of this control may include providing a cutter with a first aid kit and clean blades (Clarke, 1998, 134). Unless specific criteria set by the state or the facility requires compulsory admission, the client must also be free to leave (Isaccon, 2001, p. 215).

In settings where a caregiver has more control over the environment of the self-injurer, measures that might otherwise be impractical can be taken. The caregiver can manipulate the environment such that situations that precipitate self-injurious behavior do not occur (Favell, 1981, p. 42). The caregiver can also make efforts to ensure that rewarding situations only occur when the client is participating in appropriate activities (ibid, pp. 18 – 32), but in doing so, the caregiver must be mindful of what each particular client finds rewarding. For example, one client may find it rewarding to be excused from a group activity, but another client may consider being removed to be a punishment (ibid, pp26 – 27, 32). The caregiver must also remember that a client may become disinterested in a particular reward, necessitating a change so that the client continues to feel rewarded for appropriate behavior (ibid, p. 40). It is also important to emphasize, and have patients practice, healthful means of communication such as creative writing, art therapy, and drama therapy (Crowe, 2000, p.5). Finally, in a controlled environment, it is important to separate teenage females with borderline personality disorder, or at a minimum present an activity other than self-injury that has a rite-like characteristic, like bungee-jumping (Taiminen, 1998, p. 215).

“Most individuals who injure themselves, will not do so in the presence of others” (Alderman, 1998, p. 2), therefore one option is to remain with someone who is at risk of harming themselves. In the act of remaining with the client, however, it is important to remember to be respectful of the person’s privacy and to make great efforts to not make the person feel exposed or restrained (Deiter, 2000, p. 1183-1184). Talk with the client about self-inflicted violence to help reduce the shame attached to the act, and allow communication to flow more freely (Alderman, 1998, p. 2).

Communicate to the client that he or she can remain calm, and that he or she is expected to do so (Deiter, 2000, p. 1183). If the client is having difficulties remaining calm, return the person to the present by Having them help fill out forms involving their full name, age, date of birth, current time and time of arrival (Deiter, 2000, p. 1184) . Another alternative is to have the client do deep breathing or visualization exercises (Deiter, 2000, p. 1184).

Help the client analyze exactly what led up to this particular instance of self-injury (Deiter, 2000, p. 1186). Ask specific questions about the minutes, hours, and day before the injury took place. What was going on? Was anything important changing? Was anyone important mixing or acting different? Was there an interpersonal event, anniversary television show, or therapy session that served as a memory trigger of otherwise stirred things up? Was tension building? When did the tension become noticeable? When did the idea of self-injury come to mind? Sow did the person move from thinking about it to doing it? Work together to put words to the wish behind the injury. Did it seem like the injury would help? Sis it help? What problem was it meant to solve? How did the emergency services get involved? (Deiter, 2000, p. 1186)

Attempt to note any patterns so the client may be able to recognize what sort of events tend to lead to an episode of self injury, and the client will be able to remember that there are other options available before the moment of crisis occurs (Deiter, 2000, p.1187). Identifying patterns may also help the staff recognize a situation that could lead to an event of the client self-injuring and, if the client is unwilling or unable to ask for help, the staff will be able to intervene before the tension becomes too high for the client to handle (Isacsson, 2001, p. 215). Since self-injury can be a way of coping with stress the client feels he or she can not endure (Deiter, 2000, p. 189), it is reasonable to conclude that if stress is contained to a level the client finds endurable, at least some of the cutting will not occur. The literature also explains that there may be a set point of stress, after which a client may not be able to think clearly enough to select an alternative to their behavior pattern of self-injury (Haines, 1997, p. 178). This verifies the importance of recognizing the pattern so the whole scenario does not have to play out; a mental time-out can be called before the crisis point occurs, and at that point the client will have true control over his or her choice of how to cope with a situation (Isacsson, 2001, p. 215).

Another choice is to ask the client if he or she can think of anyone who cares about him or her (perhaps even a pet) and think about that caring. Ask what that person (or animal) would say to them or do if they could do so now (Deiter, 2000, p. 1184). If the client is not able to do this, he or she may benefit from holding “a ‘friendly’ object like a rock or a seashell” (Deiter, 2000, p.1185).

In addition to having the client remember the above techniques for times of crisis when he or she is alone, the caregiver can send the client home with an emergency list of coping options. As always, the client should be involved in the brainstorming of activities that can be done rather than self-injury (Deiter, 2000, p. 1185). The literature suggests developing different lists to cover different kinds of interventions, whichever kind the client feels is more appropriate at the time. These suggestions are not cures, but they can be an emotional salve and enough of a temporary “fix” that the client will not feel he or she has to self-injure at this time.

Soothing activities might include making team taking a bath, listening to music, working in a garden, doing an art activity, looking at a beautiful scene imagining a safe and pleasant place, petting or grooming an animal, etc. Activities to reduce tension might include walking fast, tearing up paper, throwing something in a safe place (a soft ball in the house, a tennis ball against a wall), hitting golf balls or going to a batting cage to hit softballs, working with clay, yelling, crying, beating on pillows, etc. (Deiter, 2000, p. 1185).

If a client feels alienated, looking at some reminder that there are caring others that they can contact at that time, for example a business card or brochure with a hotline number on it (Deiter, 2000, p.1185). Another way to make a connection could be through books, music, or poems to help the client feel connected to the author, the characters, or others who appreciate what they are hearing or reading (Deiter, 2000, 1185). Using these techniques, the difficult part for the client will be getting used to considering options other than self-injury (Deiter, 2000, p. 1185-1186).

Self-injury touches every portion of society. This paper has reviewed who self-injures, why, and what can be done about it. Hopefully this paper has helped the reader develop a better response to the idea of self injury, because with approximately 4% of the general population and 14% of a college sample self-injuring (Deiter, 2000, 1174), it is very likely that someone the reader already knows self-injures.

Reflections on the Process

To gather data for this paper, this researcher first attempted to gather professional articles for the prerequisite mini-literature review. Initial entries of related terms into search engines yielded multiple outreaches for individuals in crisis, but usable documentation was meager and buried amongst extensive unusable websites. This researcher then visited some on-line support sites in order to gain a more personal understanding of this issue. Some of these support sites had links to articles written by medical professionals, thus providing ample resources to draw from for the mini-literature review. That review was incorporated into this paper. Although much of what was found on the internet was not able to be used due to lack of ability to verify the source of the article, some had reference pages from which they had drawn their information. These reference pages were printed out and brought to local libraries, and the available original articles were reviewed. This researcher then returned to the internet and approached sites of reliable sources, such as government agencies and professional organizations, and looked for material about self-injury after arriving on the sites.


















Inverted Pyramid

Self-Injury
Recorded as early as Biblical times
Injuring one’s self for spiritual reasons or relief of pain
May be addictive
Only treatable if the client wants it treated
May be incurable
Co-morbidity
Depression
Parasuicide vs suicide attempt
Clinicians must understand self-injury well enough to not be shocked by it.
What is the best course of action when dealing with a client who self-injures?








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