If I Smoke Weed Can I Reach Enlightenment

[buddhayogi]

I know using intoxicants is the 5th precept but does that mean if i do it i wont reach enlightenment at all?

[locomotive]

delta 9? If you smoke weed I don't know. I smoked weed and then I thought about the universe and then I thought, there is no self. After that I went into the 3d jhana but soon after it went away. Probable because I started thinking about how to sustain this state.

I know that enlightment depends on wisdom and using insight. Also I think that a non healthy brain meaning such things as not enough sleep and bad concentration will make it difficult. I remember when I was small I tried to see how it would feel to be dead. I succeeded to do this for maybe 6 seconds. It was really wierd. Anyway the problem was that I kept trying to think and feel and I had trouble staying focussed.

[locomotive]

I don't smoke anymore, freaks me out. Last time I tried to open the door and I felt my hand go through the door, then when I tried to pull it back it went through my head and gave me seizures in the neck. :uhoh:

[Venus]

*In my ingnorant mind: :rofl: :rofl: *
In my post I say: I think the Vodoo religion supports that. Perhaps it does assist the path to enlightenment. But in my view you shouldn't use materials to help you, therefore you are not so enlightened because you have no strength within to become enlightened.
You are dependant on materials- the path you use is corrupted, because how are sure that your mind is clear? I know people will disagree, please don't be offended, it is just my little view on it..

[locomotive]

I agree but maybe yogi meant that he likes smoking and because it is called a sin he can't attain enlightment. Myabe he doesn't wan't to use it as a tool.

[buddhayogi]

Originally posted by @--
I agree but maybe yogi meant that he likes smoking and because it is called a sin he can't attain enlightment. Myabe he doesn't wan't to use it as a tool.
He is very right, i enjoy smoking weed, but if it means i cannot reach Nirvana then i will stop.

[locomotive]

yes but then again it can also mean that you should have a natural body as in healthy body.

[MidnightSun]

Well i think that it doesnt matter if u smoke, but it matters if ur addicted to it.

[locomotive]

I think it could also be something like this: you can;t bench press 100 kilos, your muscles will snap. Just like with weed your mind state is worsened

[Venus]

*At myself* ROTFL!!!! lol!
Do you smoke now Pysche? I appologise sincerly again if I offened anyone. I thought you were doing what Pysche just stated. I'm sorry.

Also I said "I think" It is just that there are some tribes in the Vo0doo worshiping areas that take the "plant of Eden" to obtain manhood- enlightment in a sense.

[Venus]

Oh right. True psyche, true. Cannabis, when smoked for whatever a period, you can develop Scitzophrenia (Which I spelt incorrectly, sorry) Otherwise it's quite healthy.

[locomotive]

So if you don't have those deceises/definciencies or don't smoke to become stupid and forget your anaroxic then that plant becomes poison.

[Venus]

Could you please re-phrase because, I don't know why, But I can't understand it.

[Venus]

No neither do I...

[Venus]

I think he means you just forget everything... :knockout:

[locomotive]

yeah I meant it like that. Stupid as in that you let habit go plus you get eating drive. Some anorexic people are claimed to be anaroxic because it just happened and other ones are crazy, some are both. It's speculation in science really.

[Venus]

Yeah, you see that is what I mean...
Yes it is a speculation of Science.

[locomotive]

yeah and saying your answer is stupid is namecalling and saying you are beeing ignorant is also namecalling.
mental illness: A broad range of disorders with psychological or behavioral symptoms and/or impairment in functioning due to a social, psychological, genetic, physical/chemical or biological disturbance.

I meant crazy not mental illness.

[Venus]

Most of the time most people who are anorexic are young women, who could be possibly influenced by vulgar, but not intentionaly offencive comments and stick -thin celebrities. That might not be true...

[Thomas Knierim]

buddhayogi: I know using intoxicants is the 5th precept but does that mean if i do it i wont reach enlightenment at all?

Short answer: You are right. Probably not. Sorry to disappoint you. :D

Explanation: Long before you even come to the point of establishing the preconditions for a path that leads to enlightenment, you will have realised that mind altering substances are an obstacle.

Even longer explanation: This does not mean that mind altering substances are principally bad and must be rejected under all circumstances. Such substances can have therapeutic effects which are useful under certain conditions. Generally, however, they are not required. Their side effects and dependency issues do by far outweigh their benefits.

Talking about weed, or rather the psychoactive effects of THC, they do not have much in common with the state of consciosness in various stages of meditation. THC typically alters time perception, disrupts short-time memory, and acts as a neuro-inhibitor. The altered perception of time (and sometimes shapes and colors) can be quite interesting for musicians and artists, but it does not aid meditation.

psyche: ...and my asthma symptoms are minimal...

Incidentally, cannabinoids also seem to have anti-spasmodic, anti-convulsant, bronchodilatory and anti-inflammatory effects, in short they seem to be a pretty good solution for asthma treatment.

Venus: You are dependant on materials- the path you use is corrupted, because how are sure that your mind is clear?

I think Venus got a point here. The dependency with various drugs ranges from fairly subtle psychological dependencies to rather gross physical dependencies. This is diametrically opposed to the most fundamental tenet of Buddhism, namely that craving and attachment (of which substance dependency is a severe form) leads to suffering, and is to be avoided.

Another point, which many people seem to overlook, is whether altered states of consciousness are spiritually useful at all. I think that seeking altered states for pleasure is by far the more common motive. The spiritual benefit of drug experiences is very questionable in my view.

Besides, if one wishes to experiment with alternate states, there are legal alternatives to psychotropic substances. For example, there is holotropic breathing, a method developed by Stanislav Grof, the discoverer of LSD. There is the sensory deprivation method, developed by John C. Lilly, which is commercially available (isolation tanks); there is the magnetic brain stimulation method developed by Michael Persinger (also commercially available); and finally there is a plethora of yoga and meditation techniques which can induce altered states.

But then again, contrary to some of the people named above, I still doubt the usefulness of altered states of consciounsness for personal and/or spiritual development.

Cheers, Thomas

[locomotive]

I was implying that name calling and giving a discription are different things. With crazy I mean holding on to illusions.

[VossistArts]

You can achieve enlightenment for a moment when you smoke weed. I think the first time you get high, is like an enlightenment in that it can show that the mind is wide open rather than limited and contained. Beyond that, I think that even when getting high helps take you to what seems like a deep and holy place, its really only recreation,.Not that thats a bad thing. There are a billion or more things a person can indulge in for the sake of recreation that are a million times worse for you karmically or whatever.

[locomotive]

and the result is beeing crazy

[Smurf]

heh I love this topic title! :lol:

[Ryker]

My standpoint: Yes, "weed" is counter-productive to Enlightenment.

Why: Enlightenment is when all illusions fade away & you are able to see the machinations of life as they really are. Smoking "weed" is a mind-altering drug. Don't get me wrong, there are positive aspects; however, it is still mind-altering. To be able to attain Enlightenment, you must have control over one's own thoughts & actions. Anything that inhibits your ability to have a clear mind is essentially coutner-productive to the purpose.

That's really all I have to say about it. :P

[VossistArts]

I agree with what you say about it showing a person there are other ways to consider things, that the Mind isnt so limited. Psychotropics in general are like that in my opinion although sometimes they reveal hidden things that can be awakening.

[Smurf]

yep,

beer = hops

Cigarettes = Tobacco

:P

[locomotive]

If you want profound stuff, try DMT.
DMT (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=34866)

[locomotive]

but aren't you abusing the law?

[locomotive]

ok but are you abusing it in the sense that you use it for recreation instead of medication

[locomotive]

hahahaha

[locomotive]

two things found at the same time ehj? and it's not obvious.

[locomotive]

allergies suck. I used to be allergic to alcohol but when I was 12 years old I wasn't anymore.

[locomotive]

I wrote a poem just now since you seem to like them:

smoke weed till I die,

I get by by the wonder
of seeing the sun go under but never die
I fly when I'm high
cry when I lay down
with a frown from the chronic
it's a tonic
African drums are a token for the tokin'
as I ride on the eyes and the body of someone unknown
In a deserted city
I recognize my own
the chronic
chronic is who I am and yet it's not me
and so I see
the beach in the desert and leave that which was known
but not me
so I die but never cry
to be born again like the sun
"I" am the wonder.

[locomotive]

great. I love how each time I read it I confuse myself because you can see different meanings in it.
to get my message across:

of seeing the sun go under but never die
dieing but yet it comes back.
I fly when I'm high
as in free
cry when I lay down
with a frown from the chronic

I can't get this brick of my head that keeps bugging me and doesn't go away
it's a tonic

drug use for enlightment but also a form of medicine
African drums are a token for the tokin'
something apreciated, belonging to
as I ride on the eyes and the body of someone unknown
something that is not "I' (chronic)
In a deserted city
the chronic brick feeling is caused my muscles and gives me the experience of looking in empty fast space but with a ugly side(it's chronic after all) to it.
I recognize my own
the chronic
chronic is who I am and yet it's not me

The I
and so I see
the beach in the desert and leave that which was known
self fades away, while simultaniously seeing something beautiful. Known I believe is in the past. when you look back at the thing you just saw a second a go thats the known. Things in the moment are only know when you are past that moment.
but not me
as in I become another consciousness but it's alittle confusing I think because of my choice of words or the arrangement I don't know. something imperfect can be perfect you know?
so I die but never cry
to be born again like the sun

past I, conscioussness but I don't cry because I realize.
"I" am the wonder.
me seeing the wonder of the sun's death is like the death of I. Me observing the sun is like I am observing myself.

ofcourse I can imagine that you think that it's about for instance the mystery of I. It woulld be great if someone read it and then later on upon reading it understood that there is also a answer in the poem since I realized.
Also this is what I believe is the hype of weed. Not necessarily complete eradication of self but atleast a decreace of attention to it as with all drugs.
damn it took me 5 minutes to make the poem and 20 minutes to type this..

[locomotive]

you made that up right?
I need to know differences in meaning of the poem betweeen people.

[locomotive]

:mellow: so what did you see in the poem?

[locomotive]

duh.

[Smurf]

*from sidelines*

This will be interesting :P

[locomotive]

what about mine

[Smurf]

No I meant the whole debarcle, the analyzing poems etc.

but I liked your poem too :) the whole loop thing happening there :thumbsup:

[locomotive]

tyou mean the sun that keeps appearing and dissapearing?

no I meant psyche didn't tell me about my poem what she found.
I'm glad that you liked it.

[locomotive]

you only said you liked it

[locomotive]

I did...

[steve933]

The original mind cant be clear if its deluded by anything intoxicating, such as weed.

With Metta

[lenin32]

I want to get a hold on some mescaline. After reading the doors of perception like 9 times, i simply must see for myself. I also wouldnt mind trying DMT. Communicating with the elves would be cool. :rolleyes:

[locomotive]

mescalin!? noo don't do it hombre! try cough pills ;)
doors of perception?

[lenin32]

When I was younger I tried Robotripping. I chugged a whole bottle, and listened to Jim Morrisons "Celebration of the Lizard" for 4 hours straight, tripping balls. I did it again, but havent done it in quite a while. It made me sick.

[locomotive]

oe cool doors of perception is a book..about tripping on mescaline. I definatly believe in the filtering of reality. I mean when you hear a song you can hear the guitar, the vocalist or just everything together.

[lenin32]

Im actually starting to believe that free will doesnt even exist at this point. Its all cause and effect.

[locomotive]

I think just like we percieve linear passage of time so do we percieve a free will. There were thoughts about a subject that I was reviewing. There was reviewing about subjects that I commenced. Wait..I didn't commence anything. It's just a thought you got and sticked to. I remember when I actually thought about free will when I was very young. I realized that there was no action beeing done by an "I", it happened by itself but I couldn't accept it because I didn't understand how that could be. Probable because I was used to think that there is a thing such as "I".

did you get the ebook I send?

[lenin32]

Its pretty funny that one cannot argue coherently about free will and refer to his/her own point of view. It creates a funny paradox. I know that I (I being something/someone different than you) am experiencing something that is different from you. Seperate thoughts, seperate feelings. But can there be a reciever/interpreter of those feelings that can be correctly categorized as I.

And Yes, i recieved the book. Its pretty interesting, thank you. :)

[locomotive]

maybe you would consider going into a cave for 2 weeks without light? :D

[lenin32]

When I want to meditate deeply, I go into my room, turn out all of the lights, blindfold myself, and put on my Tibetan Singing bowls CD. After a while of listening to the music attentively, I feel almost weightless. Its like my body isnt even there!!!

[locomotive]

cool! What I do is I look at something and then it goes away and after a while I fall asleep. Along the way I learn stuff.

[lenin32]

How so. What is it exactly that you do to meditate. Try to be a little clearer.

[fun_boyz]

why does one think of nirvana and drugs.
these two different things. the concept of nirvana is gaining enlightment which also means the human is free from mortal coils and at peace with oneself and the world.

It also addresses the Hindu concept of rebirths and re births. As per the Hindu Karma, one is reborn based on the sins and good deeds of the previous birth.

So one improves in the pecking order of creatures on earth. Finally after being re born as a high class (caste) human being where does one go? Hence the concept of salvation...merging with GOD....

However Budha said one doesnt have to wait for all these endless cycles of births and rebirths....salvation is here in this very life.... hence the Budhist concept of Moksha, Enlightment.....

There is an interesting anectode about some body meeting Budha and this guy asks Budha as to what did he feel at that exact point that he gained enlightment....
Budha doesnot answer and finally after much repition the Budha says" Your an intelligent man" and walks away.
there is message somehwere...can somebody enlighten me?

[navedub]

There is an interesting anectode about some body meeting Budha and this guy asks Budha as to what did he feel at that exact point that he gained enlightment....
Budha doesnot answer and finally after much repition the Budha says" Your an intelligent man" and walks away.
there is message somehwere...can somebody enlighten me? :lol: cessation of defining, maybe.

[navedub]

for the original post, yogi.

i believe it would be important to understand the left hand path of tantra as well before making any drastic decisions. personally, i smoked the stuff for years and can't recall much, which i'm cool with. nowadays i get paranoid off it, which i don't particularly enjoy. weighing the pro's and con's could just as well be an excuse for excusing how the drug may be negatively affecting your path. however, who's to say it won't be meat tomorrow or sex, jogging excessively, watching television, thinking too much, i mean the list could go on forever. nirvana could be a basic trust that you're already there. siddhartha embraced extreme asceticism to counter his life of a silver spoon and indulgence, eventually we let go, exhale. which i don't believe is to live without caution but know innately what is healthy without comprimise or bargaining. for myself it was and is a gradual process, addiction is a perculiar thing. many look to a higher power as a means of smoothing the rocky terrain ahead. it worked for myself, leaning on something is ok depending where we are on our path i believe. letting go of that crutch can be hard, and the subsequent crutches that follow. that is until they're no longer seen as crutches but the mutual arising of all sentient existence. like any attatchment, parents for example. as a child a father is the anchor, the leader. in adolescence his leadership is tested, sometimes he tests back. he may not even be consciously aware of the process but the exchange is for the benefit of the child to be capable of standing on two feet. the child goes off, looks back and is again endeared to the father on a more meaningful level. it's easier to 'demonize' pot, it's just a plant, without which we would not have had seargent peppers lonely hearts.

[lenin32]

Am I the only one who noticed this: all the great rock albums have been infuenced greatly by drug use.

[locomotive]

I noticed it too.

"How so. What is it exactly that you do to meditate. Try to be a little clearer."
hmm that would be difficult. Mainly what I do is I am beeing aware of everything that I do whitch isn't much because it is always one thing at a time then when I have understood what I am doing and have decided that it is not important I forget it/ let it go/ go to another consciousness whatever. Sometimes I set a goal to myself like relaxing all muscles or remembering what I did yesterday or thinking about sex and then I look at what is disturbing me how the for example relaxing works, how the muscles work etc etc. Often I get certain feelings or thoughts and I am keen to linger in them, I identify with them etc so then the first thing I do is acknowledge what I am doing, want, feel, see and each time I do the thing I label goes away but the knowledge remains that it was there. Sometimes I would try to concentrate just on one thing, sometimes I try to be equanimous to all things even thoughts that seem to be important or insightfull. This is a part of what I do but I could sum it all up by saying that I am just beeing curious.

[lenin32]

Do you ever imagine yourself as infinitely heavy, or light. My favorite meditation is one in which I imagine me as a soul, floating in limitless space. My body doesnt exist.

[locomotive]

mm I don't but I did have similair experiences. That seems very cool man.

[CSwriter1]

If you are questioning the benefits and disadvantages of smoking pot, you might take advantage of the science that is on the Internet, and google the subject.

Here is something I found that would discourage me from smoking pot, because I rather have a full active brain for as long as possible. Considering people my age start to have memory problems naturally, it is a big concern to my group that we don't make matter worse, and early pot use does make matters worse.

Visual search in long-term cannabis users with early age of onset - group of 2 »
L Huestegge, R Radach, HJ Kunert, D Heller - Prog. Brain Res, 2002 - psy.fsu.edu
... naturalistic scenes or pictures, but it appears rather ... in terms of interactions between
THC and other cannabis metabolites and the human brain’s cannabinoid ...
Cited by 2 - View as HTML - Web Search - BL Direct

[locomotive]

yeah pot burns your sperm...bummer.

[lenin32]

Does it seriously? :o

[locomotive]

news (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3158760/)
apparently

[lenin32]

Sweet. Im never gonna have to worry about those evil little cretins. :D

[locomotive]

you mean your children won't have to worry about those evil cretins?

[lenin32]

Thats the point!!! I wont be able to have children.

[locomotive]

haha ok. But bad sperm means unhealthy man.

[lenin32]

Not necessarilly. You know how sensitive those little guys are. They have to live in an ideal environment to survive.

[locomotive]

yeah thats true.