The Supernatural

[scameter]

I recently viewed the film entitled "The Skeleton Key." I particularly found it to be very intriguing. Go to this link(and Thomas this isn't trying to redirect traffic or anything) for a synopsis of it: http://www.theskeletonkeymovie.com/skeletonkey.php. It's excellent. It's particularly about hoodoo, the African/Native American/European-created magic ritual art, not a religion btw, unlike voodoo. I was also reading Joseph Campbell and he said that underneath myths and legends of our cultures can be found a universal truth that holds to our pure nature as humans, or something to that affect. To me they are synonamous. And also, i think that William James's conclusions on the power of belief also hold something here. To me, too often do scientists, philosophers, and people ingeneral cling to logic and analytical intelligence, when in reality it is our ability to believe, ritualize, and metaphysically speculate that differentiates us(not betters us) from other animals, and i think it should not be shunned. It is not derivitive of ignorance; actually, it is from wisdom, that universal sort that Campbell mentioned. Hoodoo is dependant on one's belief in it. If you do not believe that it is not real for you; but if you do, then honestly i don't know. I've never done it before, unfortunately. But i think that if someone believes something enough it can become physically real, because of the immense power of our minds. This may not be very fitting for such a logical bunch as yourselves, and myself too "for who more foolish than I, and who more faithless", as Whitman questioned. Because honestly i don't believe in it; i think that anything physical can be solved by logic. And, atypically, that saddens me. I whole-heartedly long for the metaphysical, the paranormal, to spicen up life in a sense. To give us something purely human, not an advanced form of something all animals have. And to allow us to purely connect with nature how we were meant to, not just logically as we do now. Sorry for the long post by the way. If Thomas takes out my link guys just go to the skeleton key homepage and/or watch the movie. It's excellent. :)

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: If Thomas takes out my link guys just go to the skeleton key homepage and/or watch the movie. It's excellent.

Scameter, you *@#+(!), I told you not to !#>& those darn *!?*^@ links.

:lol: Just kidding.

You are of course welcome to post links to other websites, as long as it does not have advertising character. That's why the link feature is enabled in the first place.

Cheers, Thomas

[sahyo]

Scameter, you *@#+(!), I told you not to !#>& those darn *!?*^@ links.



:lol: ...maybe thomas-vine-swinging-humoring...


:D

[scameter]

lol Asheera :D Ok Thomas, thanks. Because that Skeleton Key film synopsis will help anyone who hasn't seen it to understand what i'm talking about, as well as the rest of the site. I would reccomend seeing it though if you can, it's excellent. What do you think about what i said though? :)

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: What do you think about what i said though?

I think -in accordance with the ancients- that it is the rational, analytic capability that differentiates us mentally from animals. You emphasized belief, ritual, speculation as human traits. I think these you find as well in the animal kingdom. Ants and birds have rituals. Mammals certainly speculate and entertain beliefs. For example, if the curtain moves in the wind, my dog believes that there is someone moving it. Actually, the mammalian brain shows the same architecture as our brain. Yet, no mammal known to us has comparable rational, analytic skills.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

But that isn't belief Thomas. It is the dog's ability to use his memory. He has seen you move the curtain in the same way the wind did, and thus he thought that you had moved it when the wind actually did. And birds and ants don't have rituals; they do the same thing over and over for logical reasons, like survival. And do you know why no other animal can analyze and apply logic like we can? Because physically we aren't nearly as impressive as they are and so need a larger field of analysis and logic. Animals use logic most definitely, but they do not think. they aren't conscious. They act on logical instinct. Humans on the other hand do have consciousness, which evolved from our need for a higher logic and from our emotions, like fear. No other animal can comprehend spirituality. :)

[sahyo]

smeter:

"lol"

:D

hehe

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: It is the dog's ability to use his memory.

Actually I never move any curtains, but you are right. The dog applies a learned experience to a new phenomenon. It has learned that if something moves, there is a mover. So, the dog uses inference. Mental acceptance of an unverified inferene or hypothesis is belief. That's the dictionary definition.

scameter: And birds and ants don't have rituals; they do the same thing over and over for logical reasons, like survival.

Rituals are not logical acts and animals don't use logic for survival. The ritual behaviour is partly instinctive and partly learned.

scameter: And do you know why no other animal can analyze and apply logic like we can? Because physically we aren't nearly as impressive as they are and so need a larger field of analysis and logic.

I think you have the cart before the horse here. In evolutionary history, hominids have lost those "physically impressive" abilities you speak of. Once there were hominids with greater physical capabilities than that of homo sapiens sapiens. It turns out that these species have not survived. They lost the evolutionary competition, because planning and reasoning skills provided greater survival advantages than fast running, muscle strengths, etc. Hence, our mental reasoning skills are not a consequence of the loss of other aptitudes, but vice versa, the loss of other aptitudes is a consequence of the development of reasoning skills.

scameter: No other animal can comprehend spirituality.

I contend that spirituality has little to do with belief.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Thomas: Actually I never move any curtains, but you are right. The dog applies a learned experience to a new phenomenon. It has learned that if something moves, there is a mover. So, the dog uses inference. Mental acceptance of an unverified inferene or hypothesis is belief. That's the dictionary definition.

Yes, that is belief most definitely. But that is not what the dog does. It doesn't hypothesize, and it also doesn't verify. It merely sees and then logically infers therein.

Thomas: Rituals are not logical acts and animals don't use logic for survival. The ritual behaviour is partly instinctive and partly learned.

Yes, and they learn it from using instinctual logic, a without-thought logic that is essentially subconscious since they have no conscious.

Thomas: I think you have the cart before the horse here. In evolutionary history, hominids have lost those "physically impressive" abilities you speak of. Once there were hominids with greater physical capabilities than that of homo sapiens sapiens. It turns out that these species have not survived. They lost the evolutionary competition, because planning and reasoning skills provided greater survival advantages than fast running, muscle strengths, etc. Hence, our mental reasoning skills are not a consequence of the loss of other aptitudes, but vice versa, the loss of other aptitudes is a consequence of the development of reasoning skills.

But our bodies are still less impressive than animals. And if what you said is indeed true, then why did other animals not develop like we do and lose some of their physical impressiveness and gain greater rationality?

Thomas: I contend that spirituality has little to do with belief.

Really? Then what does it involve?

[Kether]

'Spirituality' is connected with our existential intelligence, our need for some kind of 'meaning'. It does not have to entail 'belief'.

[deepakgang]

most experience...

[scameter]

How could spirituality not take belief? I mean, that doesn't even make an sense. The entire premice of spirituality is that you believe there is something spiritual about existence, something metaphysical from ths meager existence. If you are spiritual and do not believe, then you are not spiritual. You are merely following religious dogma.

[Smurf]

So tell me Scam is this topic about Ghosts etc? i just got here

[MidnightSun]

Old good slow smurf :)

[scameter]

Nope, it's about the corelation between spirituality and belief.

[Smurf]

Old good slow smurf smile.gif
:lol: :lol: , i am not that slow, well perhaps

Thanks Scam, so the importance of spirituality for beliefs to exist no?

[scameter]

Well, moreso the essentiality of spirituality being the base for belief, which actually would entail the spiritual in all of life to which we place infinite belief.

[Smurf]

yes the undying faith?

[scameter]

Essentially. :)

[Smurf]

cool i think i got it now thanks
:thumbsup:

[scameter]

No problem. :)