Femininity And Masculinity

[scameter]

Thomas, i know that you've already posted in the Taoism section of this site the different characteristics of both femininity and masculinity, but i would like your further thoughts and everyone else's thoughts on this. This is very curious to me currently, as has been for some time, and i would like everyone's thoughts on it. :) (By the way, yes male is in the masculinity category and female in the feminine, but by the two i do not only mean male and female. I mean the traits accorded with both forms, because either could be present in a male or female.)

[Smurf]

Well what do you want me to say? that anyone is everything to a degree perhaps? that as you say males and females can be either masculine and feminine or perhaps both? but whatever nothing matters so why bother with life? :D

[scameter]

No, i've already said all that. And no, life does matter because it is here. I want to know what everyone thinks about masculinity and femininity seperately, their characteristics. This is very important to me recently and i would like everyone's opinion on it. :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

well im not sure but im going to say to a degree both male and female have both just normally females have more femininity and male have more masculinity but u see it the other way around
i will take my self as a example :uhoh:
i cry a little more then most i guess and my Love has told me that i am so mushy some times that i can be worse then her :lol:
and just that stuff not sure if that really counts as femininity? either way
i think both male and female have them both?

-will

[Smurf]

well i don't like stereotyping at all i think that it never shows who a real person actually is you know? like you can't just say: "oh he's a bit feminine" and that be all that needs to be said. everyone is different and each have their own feelings etc

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: Thomas, i know that you've already posted in the Taoism section of this site the different characteristics of both femininity and masculinity, but i would like your further thoughts and everyone else's thoughts on this.

The ancient Chinese natural philosophers believed that the interplay of Yin and Yang, the female and male principle, is a description of the unfolding process of the universe. I think this is an accurate view of the situation. In nature, we observe maximum creative energy where polar opposites interact with each other.

There are many examples for this from the large cosmic scale down to the macro and micro worlds. On our planet, nature has chosen sexual over non-sexual reproduction. As a consequence, almost all higher life forms reproduce sexually. The principal advantage of sexual reproduction is that it provides the variability necessary for adaptive advantage. (Well, there are some other more enjoyable advantages, too. :D ) That again, is a manifestation of the principle of creativity.

The question arises whether there is a female and male psyche, or whether the human psyche is universal. I think both is true. The psyche is a product of the brain and if you look at the brains of males and females, you will find that they are almost identical. There are some small differences, however, plus there is cultural and social programming. So you end up statistically with slightly different aptitudes in females and males.

I should add that people tend to overemphasize the mental gender differences greatly. In fact, some philosophers on the odd side have suggested that the male and female psyche is fundamentally different. I am speaking in particular of Otto Weininger, who wrote Sex And Character in 1903. Weininger holds that all beings embody varying proportions of the male and female principles. He also holds that the male psyche is productive, intellectual, and moral, whereas the female psyche is unproductive, anti-intellectual, and amoral. Weniniger shot himself shortly after the publication.

Cheers, Thomas

[Ronagon]

Weininger holds that all beings embody varying proportions of the male and female principles. He also holds that the male psyche is productive, intellectual, and moral, whereas the female psyche is unproductive, anti-intellectual, and amoral. Weniniger shot himself shortly after the publication.

...Which seems a very logical action to take as a result of such a conclusion.

After all, the only logical implications for a male who concludes he lives in a world where all females are corrupt and will therefore make him utterly miserable and that males are the only honorable persons out there, are:

1) be a good little heterosexual and spend the rest of your life being tortured by soulless females,
2) be a good little heterosexual who refuses to be tortured and so spends the rest of his life alone, or
3) abandon the hell of heterosexuality altogether and be a persecuted homosexual who will most likely never have "the good life" of a wife and little children scampering around.

Clearly, all three options are little else than a life of pain and loneliness. Based on this scenario, it is only logical that this Weninger would create his own fourth option, with the barrel of a gun.

I think all males have drawn Weninger's conclusions about life at some time or another. Most won't admit it, however.

[scameter]

I like the Hindu vision that every person is yes somewhat individual, but that we all come from the large spirituality as an extension, but still the same. But fluxuations in it. And to me, people look too much for a meaning in occurances in existence. To me, there is femininity and masculininty because there is. There is life because there is. This entire existence exists because it does. And things are merely as they are, because they are and for no other reasons. Things may happen within the field of our "logic", which we tend to forget is ours and is apart of nature and so is limited, and that it is not the only thing in us and so is influenced by other things, but they just happen. Merely so. Like the big bang. It may have happened because of compression in space that then caused a huge explosion of matter from the essential form of anti-matter or from nothingness into somethingness, but why must there be a reason or cause behind it? Unless we find the reason or cause behind it through observation, as Darwin discovered evolution, then we should conclude right now that it merely happened. :)

[Kether]

There are some small differences, however, plus there is cultural and social programming.

I think that the role of cultural and social programming is a very large one in creating character differences between males and females. There are physiological influences like hormones that influence the minds of men and women differently, but I suspect that the differences are by no means as great as people percieve them to be; social programming amplifies them and sometimes creates new influences.

People tend to overemphasize the mental gender differences greatly.

Which leads to gender oppression.

[Kether]

I have recently been studying the paeleolithic sculpture known as the Venus of Willendorf for a school art project. The breasts and thighs of the statuette are hugely exaggerated, while the face and feet are non-existant.

The naming of the figure ‘Venus’ is somewhat ironic, since the word is generally associated with exaggerated 'femininity', a cultural construct not present or valued in the society that produced this statuette. ‘Gender’ is usually seen as a social construct, including percieved gender roles; distinct from ‘sex’, which refers to nature. The Venus of Willendorf can be seen as an exaggeration of sexuality, and as displaying the differences in cultural gender roles between our society and that of 26000 years ago.

The hunter-gatherer society of Stone Age Austria that produced the Venus of Willendorf clearly had a different view of ‘femininity’ from that of our own. The statuette reflects the Stone Age view of an ideal female body – the fact that the figurine has no face hints as its being an anonymous sexual object rather than a real person. It may have been used as an object of religious veneration, a fertility idol. Our own culture has quite different views of gender roles – these are displayed in our own gender idols, the models and celebrities worshipped and idolised in magazines and posters all over the world.

Because the model is a fertility idol, it only has those parts of the body required for having children – it has no feet, for example.

Although she is a fertility idol, the Venus of Willendorf appears to be obese rather than pregnant. This points to the ideal woman leading a sedentary lifestyle; coupled with the Stone Age diet of fatty meat, she would very quickly put on weight. However, in a hunter-gatherer society, a woman would have had to forage for food and engage in a lot of physical labour. Perhaps the figure represented the kind of body that Stone Age women wanted to have – one resulting from a more sedentary lifestyle than the one they themselves led.

The presence of very lifelike details on the figure points to the sculpter having an actual model to work from. If that was the case, then such obese women, enjoying a sedentary lifestyle, must have existed. It is possible that Stone Age society was matriarchal, with certain women ruling the tribe. Such a ruler would not have had to engage in physical activity, and could have been overweight.

Similar figurines appear all over northern Eurasia, dating from around the same period as the Venus of Willendorf. This points to the existence of a standard ideal female body. Obese female figures are often associated with the Mother Goddess, connected with the Earth and worshipped in many ancient societies. The fact that there are seven rings of plaits in the figure’s hair may point to divinity – the number seven has often been seen as a magic number.


This contrasts hugely with what our culture sees as femininity. Our perception of femininity has gone from one extreme to another!

[scameter]

True, but if you notice something, the breasts and thighs are still the most important part of a woman's body to many men. If a woman has big breasts, the man thinks they're hot. If they have small breasts and a beautiful face, some men don't think they're beautiful, or at least not as beautiful as a woman with big breasts. Not myself, but alot of men.

[Kether]

But the 'perfect' female form, to modern humans, is generally thin.

[sonrisa]

I have heard that too- that only recently, since the 20th century, are slender women considered beautiful. Generally those fat bellied women that Rubens painted are held up as examples of the former standard of beauty. But has anybody seen those Greek statues of women/goddesses? There's not a fat broad in the bunch, & while those statues aren't unendowed, they aren't top-heavy either. Those statues are way older than any Rubens painting. Far from being recent, our current standards of beauty are actually more in line with the old Greek standards.

[MidnightSun]

Well breasts tells to men that the baby will be fed well, thats why they are attracted. Hormons activity.

Personally i, myself ,dont understand this, but anyway...

[Smurf]

yes if i see a very skinny woman what does that tell me? it show that they have an eating disorder, perhaps they aren't in control of their bodies/minds and that they prefer to let other's judgments make them who they are. really to me i would prefer someone else. :thumbsup:

[Kether]

Yes, it is sad that men find a figure that could be unhealthy attractive. Women, even if subconsciously, find that figure desirable and risk their health trying to make themselves attractive to men, which makes that figure even more attractive to men... etc. A vicious circle.

[scameter]

Well, I agree, if a woman that could be naturally beautiful as a woman is, takes their body and corrupts it into this unhealthy, emmaciated form that attracts men that they can gain control over, that is..well, sickening.

[Smurf]

yeah, not good :(

[MidnightSun]

Definitly

[scameter]

Definitely. :D

[MidnightSun]

Thats what i said :P

[scameter]

You actually said definitly :D Just kidding with you. B)

[MidnightSun]

Definitly

[scameter]

As well as to Taoism, essentially. Definitely even. :D

[Smurf]

yes

"be masculine
but keep the feminine" ?

:P

[scameter]

lol No, in Taoism it's the opposite of that. :D

[scameter]

Would the latter state be so bad?

[Smurf]

lol i'm shocked Scameter, in the Tao Te Ching doesn't it say that?

[scameter]

Is etherality your real existence?

Essentially smurf. :)

[Smurf]

hey Scam i suppose it works both ways? :lol:

[scameter]

:lol: Who were you answering psyche? <_<

[buzzlightyear1982]

Your proble going to think I'm crazy, nothing new there, but I think both te concepts of Femininity and Masculinity are overated. I believe that is possible to have a ballace between the two without being labled one or the other B)

[scameter]

I do not think you are crazy, or alone in your thinking. Many I have spoken with say similar things, and I have come to believe them, and am attempting to implement this knowledge into my life and being. :)

[buzzlightyear1982]

So which one would you say you are <_< Or are you a little of both without being labled one or the other :think:

[scameter]

I think I'm a little of both, like most people. I think I'm more feminine than masculine, even to say that I often feel mentally and emotionally as if I am a woman, but I am still masculine to an extent. I think that I'm simply a feminine/sensitive man.

[MidnightSun]

60 percent femine 40 percent masculine :D

[scameter]

Indeed. :)

[sonrisa]

everybody has a little of both, regardless of our physical gender

we each have some feminine (yin) & some masculine (yang) in us

:tao:

[scameter]

Masculine and feminine are not dependant on humans. In Taoism, Yin and Yang are universal aspects of nature, each containing many characteristic that are feminine or masculine depending on the side in specification. For instance, women being manipulative would be being masculine, whereas a man being caring for their baby and loving of their wife would be feminine, but either could be for either gender. It isn't about gender; it's about spiritual character.

[sonrisa]

actually I was referring to qi- each of us has yin qi & yang qi, regardless of our physical gender- but what Scam said about the spiritual is true as well

yes yin & yang are universal aspects of nature, I was applying it to human beings. We are part of nature, after all

:tao:

[buzzlightyear1982]

"yes yin & yang are universal aspects of nature, I was applying it to human beings. We are part of nature, after all"

I cpmpletely agree with this...I once heard it said that light could not exist without the dark. If you apply the same logic to the human aspect then good could not exist without evil as well B)

[sonrisa]

Buzz, one isn't good & the other evil. They are simply different types of energies. I would say that both yin & yang are good.

[scameter]

Yes, but we are also different than other things in nature, just like every other individual aspect of nature is. Our main difference is our mental focus and our conceptuality, as well as our emotion. This makes us, and our perspectives, different. But, I disagree there sonrisa; I think conceptual good is yin, and conceptual evil is yang, although yin and yang are not only good and bad, the style of the two would cause conceptual good and conceptual evil to fall into one or the other. But, Taoism seperates conceptual good and evil and real good and evil; the common thought of good and evil is conceptual, made by us. But to them, good and evil is being in harmony with nature and being passively natural, or being aggressive and causing imbalance and suffering. I personally wonder if it is possible to have disharmony if there is more yin than yang, because yin is so passive. But, then, could yin ever be ahead? <_< Interesting. :)

[sonrisa]

ok Scam, let's get away from the terms good & especially evil. That's the one I really hesitate to use. Let's say that there are advantageous aspects to yin, & disadvantageous aspects to yin. Same with yang- there are advantageous aspects & disadvantgeous aspects.

In other words neither one is completely perfect, & neither one is totally corrupt either. Each has it's high points & low points.

[venom mama]

not really sure if this is the place to post this but i wanted to share with everyone what happened this morning


definitly from my feminine side


my baby is due in october, this morning while i was taking a shower she decided to roll over

i watched my whole stomach turn

in the process of rolling over she was using my stomach to press against

i saw the outline of her little hand from the ouside, pushing herself

it was beautiful


:loveyou:

[scameter]

Sonrisa, to be honest it's not about advantage. The Tao is objective and exists without or with us, and even from our viewpoint neither side of it is more advantageous than the other; they are both necessary, and each contains a little of the other to retain balance. And, the only reason I was discussing good and evil is because they were brought up by someone else (forgot who).

And venom, please forgive me for saying this, what you described is a very beautiful thing, especially for a woman.... but, maybe it's just because I'm a man, that sounded very weird to me. :D

[CSwriter1]

"Anthropology in the News" has linked to several news sources discussing male and female differences. The following is one such site.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5001986,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20172045-5001986,00.html)

There is an article debating why we are different, nature of nurture? Personally as an experienced female, it is my opinion our hormones strongly effect how we feel and think. Heck, females go through monthly cycles until they are older, so it becomes kind of obvious our hormones have something to do with how we feel and think, and therefore, how we speak and beha,ve. I think it is silly to deny this.

When I was a girl, we separated girls and boys and intentionally prepared them to women or men. Then, public education opened the career doors to women. I remember my sexual confusion while in high school, and again, later when the women's liberation movement changed our consciousness and social organization. I think there is some good and some bad in this social change.

Let's see, you all of mentioned good and evil, so let me qualify my comment of good and bad. Water is essential to plants and animals, but too much of it kills.
Excesses are rarely desirable. Balance is usually desirable. In question is how do we achieve balance? Do we separate boys and girls and condition them life differently, encouraging boys to be boys and girls to be girls?

How about going with the statement that was already made. We have both male and female qualities, and balance is a personal matter of balancing our masculine and feminie qualities?

I love the Greek gods and goddesses who represent several arch types. I like the Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America, all females who carry swords. They represent the three aspects of Athena, the patron goddess of Athens. Goddess of liberty, justice and defense of both.

Zeus didn't care much about humans. His daughter, Athena, taught them to make laws for themselves. In many different cultures, males gods tend to be like Zeus, and goddesses cared about people and get involved in their lives. An objection to Jesus was he was too feminine.
This problem is resolved with Mohammed, who had a harem and was a warrior, the once ideal of maculine.

[scameter]

As you noted, all the women you like carry swords... You'd think that was a symbol of power. :)

[venom mama]

it is a little bit weird scam
you're silly
you make me smile



yes indeed thank heaven for little girls

[Kether]

There is an article debating why we are different, nature of nurture? Personally as an experienced female, it is my opinion our hormones strongly effect how we feel and think. Heck, females go through monthly cycles until they are older, so it becomes kind of obvious our hormones have something to do with how we feel and think, and therefore, how we speak and behave. I think it is silly to deny this.
Yes indeed. Nature factors and nurture factors probably both play a role; in the words of one psychologist, whose name escapes me, the nature/nurture debate is like debating which side of a shape makes it a rectangle. I think it is highly probable that biological differences between men and women do exist, but the main reason why nature is so commonly denied or ignored is because most people have the misguided notion that acknowledging the role of genes and hormones means condoning violence and inequality. But difference does not mean superiority in the case of men and women, and genes are not destiny; just an influence that should be acknowledged, along with a rich tapestry of cultural and other influences.

[scameter]

:) Always my goal and my enjoyment to make people happy. :)

[redraven]

I wonder about this: I am masculine, macho even, but I have some feminine traits, mostly thanks to my wife. There are some funny things: I am a very bad housekeeper, it is a characteristic of mine, my wife once said it must be part of my karma. My wife and I both work, and we were fighting about the house being cluttered.

So we yelled some (don't abuse yelling but every married couple does it!) and my wife said "Just pick up the house!" and I said "I don't know how to!" She called me an idiot, we didn't talk for three days, and then she taught me to pick up the house. I don't do it as well as her, but now my wife isn't always cranky, because I pick up the clutter.

I think knowing how to "pick up" is not a skill that most men learn, or perhaps a skill that men aren't born knowing, and this is a good feminine trait to learn. Learning t0 be more subtle and less goal-directed in my relationships has been another one. I sometimes view relationships as purely transactions, and my wife hates it. That subtlety is very feminine.

My Mom is smarter than me, who could imagine, and when I am having trouble, I use her as part of my "presidential cabinet" and ask her questions. She helps me see the subtlety I'm missing in my relationships.

My Dad is very goal directed and ambitious, and I use him to counsel me on other things. My Dad is not subtle, and this is one of many reasons why my parents are divorced.

[scameter]

Indeed, my mother was like your father (oddly); very ambitious, essentially unemotional and very much about herself. I don't want to critisize your father with this correlation, by the way. They're just more similar than my father to yours. My father is more like me: masculine, but also sensitive, somewhat feminine, intelligent and compassionate. I am more feminine than he is, which is probably large from my bisexuality, but I am still masculine. :)

[MidnightSun]

males gods tend to be like Zeus, and goddesses cared about people and get involved in their lives

Hmm how about Prometheus ? (he wasnt a full blood God but anyway..)

and goddesses cared about people and get involved in their lives

Thats mainly because in diffrent cultures male gods are (mostly) all masculine, and goddess are (mostly, there are exceptions of course) being showed as full femine. And as u know femine (yin if im not mistaking) represents careness, sensitivity, beauty and masculinitty represents leadership, warness and so on. So thats why goddess who are represented as yin helped mortals, and gods, as u said, barely cared.

And venom, please forgive me for saying this, what you described is a very beautiful thing, especially for a woman.... but, maybe it's just because I'm a man, that sounded very weird to me.

Something is moving inside ur belly! An alien! Booo scam :P

[scameter]

:D