A Mathematically Perfect Universe

[scameter]

Does anyone in here think that the meaning of life, the structure of the universe, the architecture of existence is mathematically perfect? For instance, when a beaver builds a dam, he/she's dam is perfect in it's architectural structure in order to block the water flowing down or up the particular waterway it is attempting to dam up, perfect for it's home, with no architectural flaws. And, the termite towers of Austrailia are perfect. their architectural structure is just right to sustain it's hight through most weather and any other external stimula. when an eagle flys from the sky down into the tree tops to catch a monkey on a branch, it's wings open and close exactly coordinated with the tree branches it passes between; it catches the monkey with expert precision and strength, with such perfection. to me, this universe is scientifically and mathematically and mechanically perfect, each planet in it's perfect spot to sustain gravitational order, each leaf in a forest perfectly set to sustain order and perfection, each animal body perfectly structured for mechanical operation. but, to me that doesn't at all negate the spiritual aspect of existence, but rather accentuates it.

[rich]

Dear scameter,
Thanks for posting your thoughts on this topic.
Though there are many things that are beyond the understanding of we homo-sapiens . I tend to agree with your analysis of this fascinating topic, that there is an intelligence far superior to ours, that exists.

[scameter]

Dear rich :D ,
Thanks. I appreciate your transcendental existentialism.

[fu*]

Well if you truely believe that it is so perfect, why are you trying to figure it out?

>>>when a beaver builds a dam, he/she's dam is perfect in it's architectural structure in order to block the water flowing down or up the particular waterway it is attempting to dam up, perfect for it's home, with no architectural flaws.<<<

And then it gets caught in a trappers snare....and drowns... Perfect?

You are still trying to figure it out!.... Is that perfect?

[scameter]

In case you didn't know this, the trapper is a Human, and humans are imperfect, falable creatures of evil that always seek to harm nature because they are jealous of it's perfection. if the trapper's snare hadn't have been there, the beaver wouldn't have been trapped. and, humans, including me, try to figure out nature and it's doings because we are so incredibly falable and imperfect. we cannot understand such perfection as nature because we have never known it. humanity is poisoned with falability and imperfection. the only thing that makes us even have a point in this life is our ability to have language and our ability to possess a concept of a God/Spirit that is more than us, a higher being.

[Truthbearer]

.. and you said Scameter .."Animals( Nature) has no concept of God."

(Nature has a language - we just dont understand it
The Soul has a language - we just dont hear it.
Earth has a language (her chi) we just dont know it.

Bring the unknown into the consciousmind.
see the unseeable.
hear the unhearable.
Know what is unknown.
This is enlightenment my friend , and these activities are the ones that will raise ones consciousmind.

Namaste
xx pat

[scameter]

Consciousness is merely a perception my friend. what you call enlightenment is merely getting in touch with our spirit which connection we have shunned.we cannot raise our consciousness, only reach a balanced state between our consciousness and our spirit.and yes, nature does have it's own language, which is perfect as is everything else in nature, but, it is merely the transmission of information from one organism to another one. the human version is imperfect, and so is adaptable and progressionable, with it's own variations. i am not at all saying we are better than nature, which i would never claim because we are imperfect and falable unlike the perfect, infalable nature. but, our imperfections are what give us a likeness to God, which differentiates us from nature.

[sonrisa]

I don't know about perfect, but since Nature follows the Fibbonacci Sequence, it's definitely mathematical

[scameter]

true. and, it also follows every other mathematical pattern/sequence, which to me is evidence of it's mathematical perfection and disproves the Big Bang theory, in which something so random could not make something so perfect as this, and is evidence of something spiritual being employed into the creation of this existence.

[fu*]

>>>In case you didn't know this, the trapper is a Human, and humans are imperfect,<<<

I will ignore your slight. (some might call it a smartass statement)

So your belief then, is that..... without humans....this world would be perfect?

>>>falable creatures of evil that always seek to harm nature<<<

In a world without humans, I am thinking of the bunny, who's mother, was violently murdered and eaten by the wolf.
Does the little bunny feel comfort in your thoughts that the world is perfect without the human? Or maybe instead that the world may be perfect without the wolf?

You seem to seperate yourself (if you are human) from the world of "perfect".....True?

Maybe there is only one thing that makes you "human".
Could it be "------"?

>>>falable creatures of evil<<<

This is you then? Mr. Human?

If you ate something today, you killed something today.

No?

FU

[Truthbearer]

Coming to a balanced state between mind and spirit IS raising the consciousmind.
Spirit being soul, all-knowing of All That Is.

but we wernt 'progressionable' .. we have poisoned, harmed, killed, maimed, mutilated, tortured - our own brothers and sisters. Because we have been dis-connected from spirit .. Nature has not.
I like to think one day, we will can be on a equal footing with Nature - at the moment we are less than equals my friend!
What - we know a few math equasions- a bit of physics - we find out what the sun MAY be made of -we fill our heads with copious knowledge, and we think this puts us on an equal footing with God?
No Scameter - it is Nature that has the equal footing.. not us.

One of my spirit guides is in animal form - and his wisdom is god enough for me. x

FU .. You could say it is all perfect - all in accordance with some mathematical design ..
the beaver dies mirroring the trappers harmfulness.
The trapper is supposed to look at the dead creature, and re-adjust his harmful thinking and being .. but we have come to look at nature as something to be used, and dont even think that we have committed a crime.

ITS ALL ABOUT SPIRIT HAVING THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE - LIFE IS ABOUT LESSONS.. NATURE IS ABOUT LESSONS .. NOTHING IS RANDOM, ALL IS ORCHESTRATED AND SYNCHRONISED .. for us to learn lessons - but we never do.

Everything is a mirror, to see karmas.. everything.
Nature is a mirror, to show man his harmfulness.
But noone takes any notice.

Even a dead bird on the footpath - if you noticed it, it is telling you something - most of our symbology comes from Nature.
All telling us how harmful we are .. we may think we are the most harmless person on earth .. but we are trucking around in our unconscious, immense karmas of brutality and harm.

I'll get off my soapbox now xx
Pat

[sahyo]

Everything is a mirror, to see karmas.. everything.
Nature is a mirror, to show man his harmfulness.

no...that is your imagined obsession tbearer

[sahyo]

Even a dead bird on the footpath - if you noticed it, it is telling you something

no

[fu*]

>>>FU .. You could say it is all perfect - all in accordance with some mathematical design ..
the beaver dies mirroring the trappers harmfulness.
The trapper is supposed to look at the dead creature, and re-adjust his harmful thinking and being .. but we have come to look at nature as something to be used, and dont even think that we have committed a crime.<<<


But what about the bear who kills the human? Is the bear supposed to look at the dead human, and re-adjust his harmful thinking and being? Or is he supposed to eat? Does the bear think that humans are just something to be used? Has the bear commited a crime?

These are not retorical questions. How does this fit with your ideas of karma? Does the bear have karma then, that he needs to work out? And how will you educate these bears?

Scameter seems to have dropped out, so I am hoping you can answer these questions for me.
Can you?

FU

[Truthbearer]

Hi Fu...
Nature has become a mirror ..

to address our own karmas.
everything now is harmful - because of humanity.

A bear kills because a bear sees something (that we do not).. we resonate our karmas .. and our karmas are karmas of harm.
(Nature does not hold or accrue karmas)
What is in our unconscious, in our etheric body, is dense energy - the more dense energy one holds, the more 'harm' they are 'sending out'
(unconsciously)
(this is being proven by people nearly being attacked by sharks - they keep their eye on the shark and generate a 'feeling' towards them - oftentime the shark will move off - I have seen two interviews with surfers that have used this technique).
Nature is only harmful, because we are.
Not in our consciousmind - in our unconsciousmind.

Hello Aheera - obsession denotes fear and fanatism.
Karma is my spiritual path and mastery.
Focussed, passionate and learned .. yes
not fanatical.

I have been to karmic places you have never trod.. and not likely to, if you do not know karma... if you do not know the spiritual purpose of all nature - they will tell you, you just have to ask them.
They may even speak to you of karma - they have been the victims of humanities .. so they know it.
And one can only know their karma -- by asking higher self questions.
Or the Spirit Consciousness of any Nature Realm.
And when one Intends a symbolic life .. we use the Nature Realms to guide us - because it is Nature that supplies the symbology for us to learn and understand.
Not every insect, bird or animal - but many, if we specifically 'notice' such - then one goes within and tries to establish if there was a message for one.
The planet Earth is ascending - the Nature Realms are ascending, Humanity is ascending , a huge spiritual event, all by collaboration with Spirit.

Everyone has truckloads of karmas - whatever ails you, will be a mirror to see (not one, but) many karmas. Layer 'pon layer.

Dont worry Asheera - there are Lightworkers out there all burying their karmic heads in the sand, you're not the only one.

One only has to experience a few karmic completions - and one will never assume or believe .. or think I am 'imagining' anything again.

Because one has experienced, then one knows.. until then, you will just be perpetuating a non-truth.
(whatever your false beliefs are about karma)

Ascension is ALL about karma.

xx Pat

[Thomas Knierim]

TB: A bear kills because a bear sees something (that we do not).. we resonate our karmas .. and our karmas are karmas of harm.

I have to object. Bears give a bloody hoot about karma. They don't seen anything resonating. They see food. They kill it. They eat it.

Predation has existed in nature since life arose in the Cambrian. It is a fundamental principle of biological life (and even of artificial life it seems...).

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

fu:I will ignore your slight. (some might call it a smartass statement)

So your belief then, is that..... without humans....this world would be perfect?

i am sorry for my slight.but, yes, that is my belief.

fu:In a world without humans, I am thinking of the bunny, who's mother, was violently murdered and eaten by the wolf.
Does the little bunny feel comfort in your thoughts that the world is perfect without the human? Or maybe instead that the world may be perfect without the wolf?

You seem to seperate yourself from the world of "perfect".....True?

not just me, but all humans. the wolf was acting out of instinct. the rabbit was meant to be eaten and the wolf needed the rabbit to be eaten for it to survive.the 'little bunny' doesn't feel comfort from anything. it just is.without the wolf, there would be millions of rabbits everywhere, and even the 'perfect' Humans would have a hard time getting them down to a reasonable level of population. the wolf is very necessary, as is the rabbit, and as is everything else in Nature, except Humans.

fu:This is you then? Mr. Human?

If you ate something today, you killed something today.

No?

so,you're saying that i actually went out somewhere with a gun or something, saw a chicken, shot it, and took it home and cooked it and consumed it? i think not. but, my main diet consists of bread and vegetables and dairy products. so, if i had a cheese sandwich would i also be killing something? and yes, i am also included as a Human, as are you and everbody else that possess Humanity on this planet.

Truthbearer:ITS ALL ABOUT SPIRIT HAVING THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE - LIFE IS ABOUT LESSONS.. NATURE IS ABOUT LESSONS .. NOTHING IS RANDOM, ALL IS ORCHESTRATED AND SYNCHRONISED .. for us to learn lessons - but we never do.

So, we don't truly have free will then?

fu:But what about the bear who kills the human? Is the bear supposed to look at the dead human, and re-adjust his harmful thinking and being? Or is he supposed to eat? Does the bear think that humans are just something to be used? Has the bear commited a crime?

the bear was scared, and acted out of instinct. i will say it right now that the bear has alot more to fear from the human that the vise versa.

fu: These are not retorical questions. How does this fit with your ideas of karma? Does the bear have karma then, that he needs to work out? And how will you educate these bears?

i myself am not a buddhist, and am equally not to fond of the karma idea, but i do know what karma is. i do not think things of nature have karma, they just are, and nothing they do is wrong; actually, it is all perfect. i believe karma to be a purely Human quality.

fu:Scameter seems to have dropped out, so I am hoping you can answer these questions for me.
Can you?

no, i'm very much so here. but only on week days. :)

Truthbearer:A bear kills because a bear sees something (that we do not).. we resonate our karmas .. and our karmas are karmas of harm.
(Nature does not hold or accrue karmas)
What is in our unconscious, in our etheric body, is dense energy - the more dense energy one holds, the more 'harm' they are 'sending out'
(unconsciously)
(this is being proven by people nearly being attacked by sharks - they keep their eye on the shark and generate a 'feeling' towards them - oftentime the shark will move off - I have seen two interviews with surfers that have used this technique).
Nature is only harmful, because we are.
Not in our consciousmind - in our unconsciousmind.

Hello Aheera - obsession denotes fear and fanatism.
Karma is my spiritual path and mastery.
Focussed, passionate and learned .. yes
not fanatical.

I have been to karmic places you have never trod.. and not likely to, if you do not know karma... if you do not know the spiritual purpose of all nature - they will tell you, you just have to ask them.
They may even speak to you of karma - they have been the victims of humanities .. so they know it.
And one can only know their karma -- by asking higher self questions.
Or the Spirit Consciousness of any Nature Realm.
And when one Intends a symbolic life .. we use the Nature Realms to guide us - because it is Nature that supplies the symbology for us to learn and understand.
Not every insect, bird or animal - but many, if we specifically 'notice' such - then one goes within and tries to establish if there was a message for one.
The planet Earth is ascending - the Nature Realms are ascending, Humanity is ascending , a huge spiritual event, all by collaboration with Spirit.

i'm glad you are such a devout, expierenced karmic believer and follower. but, i disagree with your statement,"Nature is only harmful, because we are.
Not in our consciousmind - in our unconsciousmind." because i think we do it consciously.that is how we are made.

Thomas:I have to object. Bears give a bloody hoot about karma. They don't seen anything resonating. They see food. They kill it. They eat it.

Predation has existed in nature since life arose in the Cambrian. It is a fundamental principle of biological life (and even of artificial life it seems...).

thank you Thomas. that is precisely the view i was exhibiting, that nature just is, and that it just acts, and when it does act it acts perfectly and out of instinct.

sorry for my extremely long posts, but i have alot to say, so don't please just skip over it. :)

[fu*]

Scameter,

You forgot this part >>>falable creatures of evil<<<,when you posted my reply "This is you then? Mr. Human?"

Instead of preaching to each other, If we can take one thing at a time, Maybe we can learn something valuable.

If "humans" are " >>>falable creatures of evil<<<, And you are human.....aren't you falable, and evil?

So unless you seperate yourself from human......How can I believe you? Should I listen to something that is falable and evil?

Humans are....but you aren't?

Love
FU

[sahyo]

Karma is my spiritual path and mastery.

Focussed, passionate and learned

tbearer like believing that?


I have been to karmic places you have never trod..

does comfort imagining "karmic places"?


and not likely to, if you do not know karma...

imagines can "know"?


if you do not know the spiritual purpose of all nature - they will tell you, you just have to ask them.

"they"? will tell "you"? if ask "them"?


And one can only know their karma -- by asking higher self questions.

... :lol:


we use the Nature Realms to guide us

imagining outside'?


Not every insect, bird or animal - but many, if we specifically 'notice' such - then one goes within and tries to establish if there was a message for one.

imagining inside?

"one"?


Dont worry Asheera - there are Lightworkers out there all burying their karmic heads in the sand, you're not the only one.

tbearer assuming which not happening


One only has to experience a few karmic completions - and one will never assume or believe .. or think I am 'imagining' anything again.

yet you posted imagining-assuming-believing which not happening?

[scameter]

fu:Instead of preaching to each other, If we can take one thing at a time, Maybe we can learn something valuable.

we aren't preaching to each other as far as i can see. i thought we were discussing philosophical viewpoints. <_<

fu:If "humans" are " >>>falable creatures of evil<<<, And you are human.....aren't you falable, and evil?

yes, very much so, and i never invalidated that.as are you.

fu:So unless you seperate yourself from human......How can I believe you? Should I listen to something that is falable and evil?

well, can you listen to yourself? you are also human, and are also falable and evil, as am i. humans can only do as good as they can, and i have discovered that through discussion alot can be discovered. and, as Buddha said,"Do not completely believe, or disbelieve, anything."

fu:Humans are....but you aren't?

once more, i am human, and am falable and evil. but, i, as are all humans, am not completely evil, only half so. the duality of man between good and evil, light and dark, aggressive and passive.

[Truthbearer]

Dear Asheera - I dont 'imagine' anything - if I think I am, I double-check my guidance for clarity and authentication.

Yes - one/Self communes with Nature
Yes - one/Self goes within and communes with Soul
Yes- there is a spiritual nature to all things, which one can commune with
Yes - one/Self can know their karmas by communing or going within.
Yes- I am honoured to be called a spiritual master by my Souls and Earthmother.. karma and ascension being my mastery.
Yes - we use the nature Realms to guide us.
Yes - I have been to 'karmic places' - when one experiences a pastlife, as a vision, we then understand - we know (it can sometimes be so shocking - we are shocked into understanding) we then know.. do it often enough, and one will learn their own Truth of being. We then care not for beliefs, assuming nor imagining .. knowing ones(our)truth is all that matters.

Scameter - Buddha may have said.. do not believe or disbelieve..
I say .. experience and know - beliefs are for religionists.

Thomas - can you say for sure what the bear is thinking/reacting?.. can you say for sure that the bear has killed a human to eat it? or because it was in fear/rage? do you know what an animal sees when it sees a human? Or could an animal be bound by more than just a desire to eat a human?

Scameter - freewill?..
Freewill is an amazing state - for my own experience, it took a few years of serious inner work, to detach from all attachments, all outside influences that would take any of my focus and time .. so I could attain 'freedom'/sovereignty -
and then all my freewill was surrendered to soul and Earthmother for ascension work - surrendering freewill was a very small price to pay, for the ongoing rewards one receives.
So I have to say at this point in Earths evolution - there is and then there isnt.
One has the freewill to choose.

Namaste
Pat x

[scameter]

Truthbearer:Scameter - Buddha may have said.. do not believe or disbelieve..
I say .. experience and know - beliefs are for religionists.

Well, if belief is for 'religionists', it should still be accounted for and be applied to other studies, as everything requires balance of opposites.and, expierence is on of the main tenets of Taoism.

Truthbearer:Scameter - freewill?..
Freewill is an amazing state - for my own experience, it took a few years of serious inner work, to detach from all attachments, all outside influences that would take any of my focus and time .. so I could attain 'freedom'/sovereignty -
and then all my freewill was surrendered to soul and Earthmother for ascension work - surrendering freewill was a very small price to pay, for the ongoing rewards one receives.
So I have to say at this point in Earths evolution - there is and then there isnt.
One has the freewill to choose.

yes, autonomy is amazing. it is one of the few things that differentiates us from nature. i would not personally ever give up my free will because i believe it to be one of the most illuminating of all human characteristics into the character of our creator, if we are at all similar to Him/Her/It. although, because the Tao is everything and yet nothing also, we as well as nature was created from the Tao, and so we are all similar, yet differentiated, from the Tao. but, then the question arises concerning animal autonomy, if it exists or not? <_<

[sahyo]

Dear Asheera - I dont 'imagine' anything - if I think I am, I double-check my guidance for clarity and authentication.

Yes - one/Self communes with Nature
Yes - one/Self goes within and communes with Soul
Yes- there is a spiritual nature to all things, which one can commune with
Yes - one/Self can know their karmas by communing or going within.
Yes- I am honoured to be called a spiritual master by my Souls and Earthmother.. karma and ascension being my mastery.
Yes - we use the nature Realms to guide us.
Yes - I have been to 'karmic places' - when one experiences a pastlife, as a vision, we then understand - we know (it can sometimes be so shocking - we are shocked into understanding) we then know.. do it often enough, and one will learn their own Truth of being. We then care not for beliefs, assuming nor imagining .. knowing ones(our)truth is all that matters.


tbearer sweeting,

"I "
"one/Self"
"one"
"with Nature"
"with Soul"
"within"
"karmic places"
"ascension"
"we"
"knowing ones(our) truth"
was imagined, assumed to be true, and believed to be true,
as well as feeling as though 'important'
"I am honoured to be called a spiritual master by my Souls and Earthmother
.. karma and ascension being my mastery"

[fu*]

Hi Scameter,
Thanks for your response.

>>we aren't preaching to each other as far as i can see. i thought we were discussing philosophical viewpoints. <<

I guess one mans "preaching" is another mans "discussing". Kind of a judgment thing huh?

>>>the wolf was acting out of instinct. the rabbit was meant to be eaten and the wolf needed the rabbit to be eaten for it to survive.the 'little bunny' doesn't feel comfort from anything. it just is.without the wolf, there would be millions of rabbits everywhere, and even the 'perfect' Humans would have a hard time getting them down to a reasonable level of population<<<

>>the rabbit was meant to be eaten and the wolf needed the rabbit to be eaten for it to survive.<<

How do you know that the rabbit was meant to be eaten? And for the wolf to survive?

Doesn't the human have the same need? And so does.....does...does....what the human needs to do to survive?

If the human acts without thinking, isn't that insticnt? And that is good?

Lacking time, I will get right to the point.

What you see as "evil", is not the body.... the human without thinking.

It is the THINKING! The thought that creates "evil", that creates this ego. This ego that fears.

So I would say that it is not the human that is evil, but thought itself.

Without "thought", wouldn't you be perfect like the wolf?

So is it the "human"? Or is it the thought?

Best wishes
fu

[fu*]

TB
>>to detach from all attachments, <<

You are so very "attached"

>>I am honoured to be called a spiritual master by my Souls and Earthmother.. karma and ascension being my mastery.<<

This attachment, I feel, You will not give up. Too much invested. How special that they have picked 'you'.

Oh well,

FU

[Thomas Knierim]

TB: Thomas - can you say for sure what the bear is thinking/reacting?.. can you say for sure that the bear has killed a human to eat it? or because it was in fear/rage? do you know what an animal sees when it sees a human? Or could an animal be bound by more than just a desire to eat a human?

I think that we humans look suspicious to the bear and the feeling is probably mutual. When human and bear meet in the wilderness, there are two options: fight or flight. I don't think that the bear is concerned with our karmas or our personal history or anything like that. The bear must make a decision. It must decide whether to charge or whether to leave the human alone. The decision is probably made on basis of standard bear instinct. There are factors like: how hungry is the bear, does it feel threatened, is it in an angry mood or is it exhausted, does it assess an attack to be risky, and so on. All predatory mammals seem to behave in that way.

scameter: i would not personally ever give up my free will because i believe it to be one of the most illuminating of all human characteristics...

Lol. Before you decide to hold on to free will, it would be a good idea to investigate whether you have it in the first place. Do you?

scameter: ...into the character of our creator, if we are at all similar to Him/Her/It.

It surprises me that you say that you are Taoist, yet at the same you posit a creator . How does that fit together? Do you believe the Tao is created? Or is the Tao the creator?

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

fu:I guess one mans "preaching" is another mans "discussing". Kind of a judgment thing huh?

yeah, i guess so. :)

fu:How do you know that the rabbit was meant to be eaten? And for the wolf to survive?

because that's how it happened.

fu:If the human acts without thinking, isn't that insticnt? And that is good?

yes,if humans acted out of a no-mind ability, wu wei by Taoist, satori by Japanese Zen, then everything we did would be absolutely perfect with no exceptions, as nature is when it acts out of wu wei and it does that naturally.thought produces fallability.

fu:What you see as "evil", is not the body.... the human without thinking.
It is the THINKING! The thought that creates "evil", that creates this ego. This ego that fears.

yes, very true.

fu:So I would say that it is not the human that is evil, but thought itself.

as would i, as thought produces fallability, inperfection, and a tendency towards evil.but, it does require a balance of thought and no-thought, although no-thought should be taken over thought if the choice is forced.

fu:Without "thought", wouldn't you be perfect like the wolf?
So is it the "human"? Or is it the thought?

man, fu, you're sounding rather Taoist today, because yes, it is essentially thought that gives humans a tendency towards evil and fallability, and the world would be absolutely perfect if humans acted out of no-mind. so, essentially, it is thought that makes humanity evil.

fu:TB
>>to detach from all attachments, <<
You are so very "attached"
>>I am honoured to be called a spiritual master by my Souls and Earthmother.. karma and ascension being my mastery.<<
This attachment, I feel, You will not give up. Too much invested. How special that they have picked 'you'.

yes, attachment should be renounced.

Thomas:I think that we humans look suspicious to the bear and the feeling is probably mutual. When human and bear meet in the wilderness, there are two options: fight or flight. I don't think that the bear is concerned with our karmas or our personal history or anything like that. The bear must make a decision. It must decide whether to charge or whether to leave the human alone. The decision is probably made on basis of standard bear instinct. There are factors like: how hungry is the bear, does it feel threatened, is it in an angry mood or is it exhausted, does it assess an attack to be risky, and so on. All predatory mammals seem to behave in that way.

very true Thomas.although, bears are not predominantly predatory; their diet consists of 70% or more berries and vegetables. but, it can prey if it must.

Thomas:Lol. Before you decide to hold on to free will, it would be a good idea to investigate whether you have it in the first place. Do you?

as far as i know i do, mostly anyways. <_<

Thomas:It surprises me that you say that you are Taoist, yet at the same you posit a creator . How does that fit together? Do you believe the Tao is created? Or is the Tao the creator?

"O the Great Way overflows and spreads on every side! All being comes from it; No creature is denied. But having called them forth, It calls not one its own. It feeds and clothes them all, and will not be their lord."-Ch.34 "Man conforms to the Earth; The Earth conforms to the sky; The sky conforms to the Way; The Way conforms to its own nature."-Ch.25 Tao Te Ching. to me, those two quotes from the Tao Te Ching clearly illustrates that both of your proclimations are true; the Tao is both the creator and the created, nothingness and everything, all-encompasing.

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by scameter

bears are not predominately predatory; their diet consists of 70% or more berries and vegetables. but, it can prey if it must.

this may be true of bears in the wilderness. But the bears in the national parks eat alot of junk food. So if you are camping in a national park & a bear attacks your camp, s/he probably is not interested in eating you, but in eating your junk food.
:)

[scameter]

true. Variation under Domestication as Charles Darwin would, very accurately, say. :)

[fu*]

Hi SM,

I am sorry I was not clear about what was posted. I was not so much stating my belief's, as trying to define what you were posting.

>>>man, fu, you're sounding rather Taoist today, because yes, it is essentially thought that gives humans a tendency towards evil and fallability, and the world would be absolutely perfect if humans acted out of no-mind. so, essentially, it is thought that makes humanity evil.<<<

It is this judgement of "evil" that I am concerned about.

So this judgement of thought as evil.... Doesn't it come from 'thought'? Thought judging thought?



fu:How do you know that the rabbit was meant to be eaten? And for the wolf to survive?

SM..because that's how it happened.

Good point. But didn't/doesn't "thought" happen? So isn't perfect happening? Even this "thought"?

fu

[scameter]

fu:It is this judgement of "evil" that I am concerned about.
So this judgement of thought as evil.... Doesn't it come from 'thought'? Thought judging thought?

Not necessarily. the definition of morality is deeply rooted in our instincts, i think. to me, you have to be instinctually unstable to commit an evil act, or to think about what you're doing while ignoring your instincts.

fu:Good point. But doesn't "thought" happen? So isn't perfect happening? Even this "thought"?

well, thought is brought into being and does not just spontaneously appear.Perfection, especially in nature, does not happen; it just is. and, because thought does "happen" because it is, well, thought about and brought into being, it is not perfect. now, instincts are perfect because they do not happen, they just are, which is another symbol of Nature's perfection, because they do not think and they act purely on instinct based on their sensual awareness, then they are perfect. :)

[fu*]

SM>>Not necessarily. the definition of morality is deeply rooted in our instincts,

That doesn't make any sense to me. "morality" rooted in instincts? Like instinct is ...do what I need to survive. Morality is...Thinking, should I do this?

Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?

SM>>because thought does "happen" because it is, well, thought about and brought into being,<<

Thought happens because it is 'thought about'?

Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?

SM...which is another symbol of Nature's perfection, because they do not think and they act purely on instinct based on their sensual awareness,

I remember seeing a story about a family of loons whose male (father) was killed in a boat accident. There was another male to replace the missing mate, but he killed/drowned the young baby loons. Do taoists see no evil in this beacause it was instinctual?

I really dont think that your mother or sisters would be too happy if men acted purely out of instinct.

When you have an instincual sexual urge, do you simply act upon it?....... Or do you think? You evil thing you.

Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?

I do, and you are not helping.

Farewell, and good luck on your intelectual journey

FU

[scameter]

fu:That doesn't make any sense to me. "morality" rooted in instincts? Like instinct is ...do what I need to survive. Morality is...Thinking, should I do this?

actually, quite the contrary. you don't tihnk about an actions morality when you are doing them, you just do them based on morality. a sense of good and evil is instinctual. it's rather hard to explain, but it is true. if you are about to do something, you don't just stand there and wonder about the context of it's morality, you just act based on instinctual morality. it is when someone thinks about what they are doing that evil acts take place. i am not trying to sound elusive or aloof, but truthful. and, instincts are not only what you need to do to survive; they are much more, and one of them being a sense of morality.

fu:Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?

i don't really catch your meaning of that statement. could you explain?

fu:Thought happens because it is 'thought about'?

yes, exactly. to think, one must think about something, which then entails detrements usually and only some good qualities.

fu:I remember seeing a story about a family of loons whose male (father) was killed in a boat accident. There was another male to replace the missing mate, but he killed/drowned the young baby loons. Do taoists see no evil in this beacause it was instinctual?

well, i don't really know what i 'loon' is, but if it is something natural that acts purely on instinct then yes it would be perfect. but, i'm not certain if this is a Taoist concept or not. i believe it is, as they/we think of the Tao as perfect and nature is a part of the Tao and so it is perfect, but i can not certify validity on my claim except through my own personal belief.

fu:I really dont think that your mother or sisters would be too happy if men acted purely out of instinct.

:think:

fu:When you have an instincual sexual urge, do you simply act upon it?....... Or do you think? You evil thing you.

actually, the vulgarity placed upon sex to me is stupid, because yes sex is very natural and instinctual to us and so is natural. not perfect, because it does entail at least some thought as does everything we faulty humans do, but it is natural.

fu:Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?
I do, and you are not helping.
Farewell, and good luck on your intelectual journey

huh? :huh: :tao:

[scameter]

fu, you there?

[fu*]

Yes scameter, my thought is here. And so I am too.

>>>because it does entail at least some thought as does everything we faulty humans do<<<

So what if there is NO thought then. Is it the human that is faulty? Or the thought? (please dont try to answer that, it is a question to myself)

>>>fu:Do you ever have an urge to have more than an intelectual understanding of these things?<<<

SM>>>i don't really catch your meaning of that statement. could you explain?<<<


With only words, here is my explaination.......I am not so interested in intelectual "debate", but something beyond. Beyond thought. beyond human. beyond nature. beyond words.

Can you explain with words, what is beyond words?

I, me,my... seem to return gentle with gentle. Rough with rough, but I am an ASS. looking for other ASSES, who gnow at least that much.

It is easy to see the ASSES when you(not you...I) are one. Not so easy to see to see 'other than'. But maybe....?..


Needle in a haystack. I am diving in. With or without you.

[scameter]

fu:So what if there is NO thought then. Is it the human that is faulty? Or the thought? (please dont try to answer that, it is a question to myself)

although i could, i will honour your request. :)

fu:With only words, here is my explaination.......I am not so interested in intelectual "debate", but something beyond. Beyond thought. beyond human. beyond nature. beyond words.

i believe you have very complex thoughts, as do i, which is why i enjoy our conversations. if you wish to go beyond humanity, corporiality, thought, and words, then you will reach a state of perfection and invulnerability when you reach this point, as you will be similar to that of an animal, if not better, as you will be in contact with the Tao directly, and you will know it, you will feel it. but, do not go beyond nature; if you seek such perfection and a communication with the Tao, then do as Taoism says, reach a state of wu wei(no-thought), patience, simplicity, humility, yeilding, acceptance, present-moment living, emptiness, compassion, become connected with your Te(inner nature, uncarved block) which is your true self, and no duality between existence's opposites, the Yin and Yang. it is hard to explain through words, as you say, and that is why life expierence is necessary to obtain such perfection. 'practice makes perfect' in it's truest form. this may seem to be overly Taoist, but that is what i am, and i believe it to be completely true and possible to obtain, if you do as i said, as the Tao asks of you to do, as you were meant to be. good luck with your journey, my friend, the journey for which i am also traversing, the Way, and leave no foot prints as you go. :)

fu:I, me,my... seem to return gentle with gentle. Rough with rough, but I am an ASS. looking for other ASSES, who gnow at least that much.
It is easy to see the ASSES when you(not you...I) are one. Not so easy to see to see 'other than'. But maybe....?..
Needle in a haystack. I am diving in. With or without you.

i don't much get your statements regarding ASSES, if you would care to explain i would greatly appreciate it. but, i am with you in your journey, as are many, and i believ we are headed in similar directions. i welcome your company, my friend. :)

[fu*]

SM >>>if you wish to go beyond humanity, corporiality, thought, and words, then you will reach a state of perfection and invulnerability when you reach this point, as you will be similar to that of an animal, if not better, as you will be in contact with the Tao directly, and you will know it, you will feel it. <<<

Have you "known" it? Have you "felt" it?

If so, there is no more searching then for you to do.

If not, then everything you have posted is only an idea. Your conclusion. Your best guess based upon the words and writings of others. It is your thought believed.

If you are truely searching, you would understand that, and not debate it.

If you have not "found" it. How can you tell me where to find?

It may be like Monty Python say's
"And now for something completely different"

Since you have given me advice, I will return the favor.

Empty that cup, until even the cup disapears.

This is only advise though, without knowing.

[scameter]

fu:Have you "known" it? Have you "felt" it?
If so, there is no more searching then for you to do.

unfortunately no, i haven't. i have felt the Tao before, but only slightly and only a few times. i am connected to the Tao in a way, but it is hard to explain. if you wish me to i will, but you may think of my expierence as a lie or as just something that can be scientifically measured.

fu:If so, there is no more searching then for you to do.

actually, there should be no more searching for anyone who wishes to find the Tao, for it is all around you and inside of you, your Te, Inner Power, kinda like the Christian Holy Spirit. the Way is not really a search in my opinion, it is the test to reach a point in which you see things as they are, no more no less, and your eyes are not clouded. then, you can see and feel and connect with the Tao and Te completely, and it will connect with you. life is merely the search, in a sense, to discover what is already there, who and what you are and how you connect with the Tao.

fu:If not, then everything you have posted is only an idea. Your conclusion. Your best guess based upon the words and writings of others. It is your thought believed.
If you are truely searching, you would understand that, and not debate it.
If you have not "found" it. How can you tell me where to find?

that is rather critical, but it is truthful. everything, nearly, that i know has come from secondhand knowledge from things such as the Tao Te Ching and other books. but, those studies form the basis for one's own search, as i am not living the Way, and am being as the Tao has made me to be, or at least i am trying to be. i will not lie to you, the Way can be rather harsh sometimes, but if you wish to reach your true self and a connection with the Tao, then you must brave the hardships whith great integrity and courage. as Lao Tzu said,"Through compassion comes courage."and, i can tell you where and how to find it because i have felt it, and i have read what others have felt of it and even people who have found it and how they became into such a connection. and, i am not debating anything; i am merely trying to help you, and myself in the process, and anyone else who reads this and who is on the same search as we are.

fu:Since you have given me advice, I will return the favor.
Empty that cup, until even the cup disapears.
This is only advise though, without knowing.

true, but remember,"Knowing comes from expierence."-Lao Tzu. and, i do understand your metaphor about the cup. emptiness is a major part of Taoism, constituting apart of the description of the Tao it's self, being a tenet9emptiness), and being apart of another tenet wu wei(no-mind action, acting out of nothingness and no-thought without effort). :)

[Owen]

scameter:
to me, this universe is scientifically and mathematically and mechanically perfect, each planet in it's perfect spot to sustain gravitational order, each leaf in a forest perfectly set to sustain order and perfection, each animal body perfectly structured for mechanical operation. but, to me that doesn't at all negate the spiritual aspect of existence, but rather accentuates it.

Wow, give yourself a shake!

Perfection is an illusion of theists, like you.

What 'spiritual aspect of existence' are there, in your 'opinion'?

[Thomas Knierim]

Owen: Perfection is an illusion of theists, like you.

Of course. Perfection, purpose, and divine guidance are indeed illusions. Sadly, the bigger part of humanity is unlikely to see through them. We cannot say what would happen if mankind would suddenly stop believing in them. The main problem is ego, I suppose. To realise that our world is the product of very complex physical, chemical, and biological processes is not so difficult, because science is advanced today and it gives us the required knowledge. But to realise that the world is not designed, that there is no caring God, that we are on our own, and that the self is entirely meaningless, seems to be too much for most people. :unsure:

Cheers, Thomas

[sahyo]

The main problem is ego, I suppose.

ego is imagined like paining fear thinking feeling as though can define know-notknow
as though can solid-notsoild for 'trying' holding on to

[Owen]

Thomas:
Of course. Perfection, purpose, and divine guidance are indeed illusions.

Agreed.

Thomas:
Sadly, the bigger part of humanity is unlikely to see through them. We cannot say what would happen if mankind would suddenly stop believing in them. The main problem is ego, I suppose. To realise that our world is the product of very complex physical, chemical, and biological processes is not so difficult, because science is advanced today and it gives us the required knowledge. But to realise that the world is not designed, that there is no caring God, that we are on our own, and that the self is entirely meaningless, seems to be too much for most people.

"The main problem is ego, I suppose. "


I think the main problem is the invention of an omniscient and omnibenevolent entity, to explain our world.

Absolute truth, fatalism, determinism, destiny, etc., are also illusions of religious thought.

We will be better off when we reject these child-like notions of a big daddy.

Thomas:
"..and that the self is entirely meaningless, "

I am not sure what you mean here. I do not believe that the self is meaningless, without gods.

Regards,
Owen

[Thomas Knierim]

Owen: I think the main problem is the invention of an omniscient and omnibenevolent entity, to explain our world."

It's not really the root cause. One must ask what brings people to do that. The legend of an omniscient allmighty being is originally the response of one particular culture to a deeper existential question: "Why am I here?" This question aims at defining an existential leg to stand on. The cosmic joke is that -in reality- there is no such leg. :lol:

As we all know, in the absence of evidence people will be satisified with conjectures if they are presented with an air of authority. This is how the God meme came into being. It was the invention of the early middle-eastern civilisation. This God meme has been so successful that it spread all over the planet. ...which is quite wondrous.

What concerns the God meme, I'd like to suggest deconstructing Pascal's wager. Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician, stated that:

(1) If we believe in God and God does not exist, we lose nothing.
(2) If we believe in God and God does exist, we gain everything.
(3) If we don't believe in God and God does not exist, we neither lose nor gain anything.
(4) If we don't believe in God and God exists, we lose everything.

According to Pascal's wager, belief in God appears to be rational. However, the argument is fallacious. It is a false dilemma which relies on hidden unproved assumptions. Apart from the dodgy implication that gaining or losing depends on our belief -and only on our belief- Pascal failed to state what exactly is won or lost. The logically correct form of the argument is:

(1) If we believe in God and God does not exist, our understanding is flawed.
(2) If we believe in God and God does exist, our understanding is correct.
(3) If we don't believe in God and God does not exist, our understanding is correct.
(4) If we don't believe in God and God exists, our understanding is flawed.

According to this, there is simply a 50/50 chance of having a correct understanding. However, in absence of either empirical or theoretical proof for God's existence, the question is simply irrelevant. You could replace the noun 'God' in the above argument with the noun 'pink unicorn' and still retain a valid argument. But what's the point?

Cheers, Thomas

[Owen]

Your apparent simplicity is not acceptable

[scameter]

Owen:Wow, give yourself a shake!
Perfection is an illusion of theists, like you.
What 'spiritual aspect of existence' are there, in your 'opinion'?

why should i tell you that? obviously, my 'young' opinions and views are just random, idiotic rantings anyway. so, why do you want to know? to have something else to bash me about?

Thomas:Of course. Perfection, purpose, and divine guidance are indeed illusions. Sadly, the bigger part of humanity is unlikely to see through them. We cannot say what would happen if mankind would suddenly stop believing in them. The main problem is ego, I suppose. To realise that our world is the product of very complex physical, chemical, and biological processes is not so difficult, because science is advanced today and it gives us the required knowledge. But to realise that the world is not designed, that there is no caring God, that we are on our own, and that the self is entirely meaningless, seems to be too much for most people.

Nietzsche would agree. so, in your opinion and personal view, believe there to be no point to existence, my friend?

Owen:I am not sure what you mean here. I do not believe that the self is meaningless, without gods.

then tell me,Owen, if you wish to: what do you believe, think, or whatever in regards to the point of life, and the same question for you too Thomas.

[scameter]

Owen:Wow, give yourself a shake!
Perfection is an illusion of theists, like you.
What 'spiritual aspect of existence' are there, in your 'opinion'?

why should i tell you that? obviously, my 'young' opinions and views are just random, idiotic rantings anyway. so, why do you want to know? to have something else to bash me about?

Thomas:Of course. Perfection, purpose, and divine guidance are indeed illusions. Sadly, the bigger part of humanity is unlikely to see through them. We cannot say what would happen if mankind would suddenly stop believing in them. The main problem is ego, I suppose. To realise that our world is the product of very complex physical, chemical, and biological processes is not so difficult, because science is advanced today and it gives us the required knowledge. But to realise that the world is not designed, that there is no caring God, that we are on our own, and that the self is entirely meaningless, seems to be too much for most people.

Nietzsche would agree. so, in your opinion and personal view, believe there to be no point to existence, my friend?

Owen:I am not sure what you mean here. I do not believe that the self is meaningless, without gods.

then tell me,Owen, if you wish to: what do you believe, think, or whatever in regards to the point of life, and the same question for you too Thomas?

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: Nietzsche would agree. so, in your opinion and personal view, believe there to be no point to existence, my friend?

That's the cosmic joke. Existence itself is the point of existence. It's so damn simple. :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

hmm. actually, that makes some sense to me now that i think about it and look at life through such a lens as that opinion. it actually correlates very well with my mechanical and perfection theories of nature. of course, your view, my friend Thomas, may seem only scientific, but actually it is also partially Zen, as the mystic Osho said in his book suitably titled Zen,"Zen is not a religion, not a dogma, not a creed. Zen is not even a quest, an inquiry; it is non-philosophical. The fundamental of the Zen approach is that all is as it should be, nothing is missing. This very moment everything is perfect." and, another thing Osho says in the same book also correlates well with science, particularly the Big Bang and the Expansion Theory i think,"Everything in the world has come out of space and everything disappears into it." i think it is rather interesting the correlation(sorry for the repeditive use of that word) between science and Eastern thought. ot me, too many people, not to say you do Thomas i just mean people in general, seperate mutually science and spirituality, when they should be mutually compatible. if man can achieve a complete balance of both science and spirituality, then we will be truly able to discover the truths of existence. :)

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: i think it is rather interesting the correlation(sorry for the repeditive use of that word) between science and Eastern thought. ot me, too many people,[...] ,seperate mutually science and spirituality, when they should be mutually compatible.

Now we are talking!

This is what I keep saying. There is no conflict between science and spirituality. This conflict is old rusty dogma at best. On the contrary, scientific inquiry and spirituality are just two slightly differently directed forms of the same impulse, i.e. of the desire to understand the world and relate to it in a meaningful way. In my view, spirituality has little to do with reciting prayers or mantras in impressively designed buildings, but more with developing awareness. No wait... even that is nonsense, because the awareness is already there. All we need to do is to discover it and make proper use of it.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

Osho- "Everything in the world has come out of space and everything disappears into it."


that's the 1st Law of Thermodynamics- energy cannot be created nor destroyed, merely changed from one form to another
energy into mass, mass into energy

[scameter]

Thomas:This is what I keep saying. There is no conflict between science and spirituality. This conflict is old rusty dogma at best. On the contrary, scientific inquiry and spirituality are just two slightly differently directed forms of the same impulse, i.e. of the desire to understand the world and relate to it in a meaningful way. In my view, spirituality has little to do with reciting prayers or mantras in impressively designed buildings, but more with developing awareness. No wait... even that is nonsense, because the awareness is already there. All we need to do is to discover it and make proper use of it.

I think that spirituality, in a large differentiation from religion, is a commitment to one's self, others around him/her, and his/her surroundings. it is the attempt to renew a connection that would should already have and possibly had a long time ago that is a connection between the material and spiritual worlds of existence. and, back to the science and spirituality relation, to me, both are the same: both try to look at things in life and in existence and explain them how they truly are. for instance, i was reading a physics book yesterday called the Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch and he was describing a shadow as having three parts, essentially: the umbra(complete shadow), penumbra(the grey area), and light. now, i thought that this was either just some physical theory or something that the human eye could not actually witness. but, then when i looked back down at my book, i had it curved, unknowingly, in such a way as to where that the shadow of the opposite page from which i was reading cast a shadow on the page i was reading from. and, i saw both the umbra and, more meaningfully to me, the penumbra. to me, that showed me that is all science really is is man's attempt to describe things in existence as they really are. and to me, however materialistic that may sound, it was absolutely amazing to me, to show how wonderful nature truly is and to be able to see it in that way. to me, there is nothing wrong, as i do it myself, to correlate a spiritual meaning to science and the material world as to me it is necessary and true. i think people are just afraid to recognize that. :)

[sonrisa]

Owen: Wow, give yourself a shake!
Perfection is an illusion of theists, like you.
What 'spiritual aspect of existence' are there, in your 'opinion'?


Scameter: why should i tell you that? obviously, my 'young' opinions and views are just random, idiotic rantings anyway. so, why do you want to know? to have something else to bash me about?

Good one kid!! :thumbsup:

[scameter]

thanks kid! :D