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vicente
27th May 2005, 10:14 AM
Christian Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
May 26, 2005

Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court
refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.
"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.
"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.
"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.
"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

Thomas Knierim
27th May 2005, 10:40 AM
Huh?

What happened to religious liberty? I was under the impression that the USA is a secular state.

Cheers, Thomas

vicente
28th May 2005, 01:04 AM
Thomas:I was under the impression that the USA is a secular state.


Not really,...in the 1950's America began a steady shift into theocracy following a string of Constitutionally impermissible government endorsements of monotheism,...even altering the US Motto of E Pluribus Unum (from Many, One) to 'in god we trust'. The shift has been so subtle in an environment of a Christian majority (since 1942, Yearbook of American Churches census), that todays deluded, monotheistic faith-based Right-wing culture was very predicable.

Even though America (86%) is in denial,...the rest of the world should take notice,...for the agenda of America is to force their Christianized Democracy on the world. What that occurs, the democracy will be dropped. The only reason for democracy is to make a path for the Christian mission,...to evangelicalize all of humanity.

Vicente

CSwriter1
29th May 2005, 03:34 AM
Vincente, I wish could say this on another forum, where the denial is strong. The only change I would make to what you said, is those leading us in this direction are interested in the New World Order, not Christianity.

In 1958 we stopped transmiting our culture and began educating for technology for industrial and military purpose. At this time we left moral training to the church, same as Germany did. Now, without culture to unite us, and divided by religion, we are reactionary and easily malnipulated. The Christians are most easily used by the New World Order leaders.
They know only their bibles and nothing of democracy.

http://www.alternet.org/story/15935 will hopefully get you to Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception.

Thomas Knierim
1st June 2005, 10:36 AM
vicente: The only reason for democracy is to make a path for the Christian mission,...to evangelicalize all of humanity.

...which is probably impossible, but it would certainly cause a tremendous amount of pain and bloodshed. Let's hope you are wrong about it.

Cheers, Thomas

Ronagon
2nd June 2005, 01:19 PM
I would like to establish a world-wide Vulcan philosophy of logic worship, not "Christianized Democracy".

sonrisa
3rd June 2005, 11:44 AM
Ron- live long & prosper. V

Thomas Knierim
7th June 2005, 05:23 PM
vicente: Not really,...in the 1950's America began a steady shift into theocracy following a string of Constitutionally impermissible government endorsements of monotheism.

cswriter: In 1958 we stopped transmiting our culture and began educating for technology for industrial and military purpose. At this time we left moral training to the church, same as Germany did.

Vicente & Cswriter: Your statements seem to overlap. That is interesting. What happened in the 50s in the USA? What was before and what is now?

Cheers, Thomas

rich
8th June 2005, 04:30 AM
Ronagon
** Posted on Jun 2 2005, 01:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to establish a world-wide Vulcan philosophy of logic worship, not "Christianized Democracy".*

Rather than establishing any specific preference, each person should have the right to choose the path they are most comfortable with, and not expect others to conform to their personal choice.

Ron, what exactly do you mean by "Christianized Democracy"?

vicente
9th June 2005, 12:35 AM
...which is probably impossible, but it would certainly cause a tremendous amount of pain and bloodshed. Let's hope you are wrong about it.

The purpose of Christians (even so-called Liberal Christians) is to evangelize the world.

For example (although so-called Liberal Christians deny it), Christians generally adhere to four core beliefs: the Bible is without error, salvation comes through faith in Jesus and not good deeds, individuals must accept Jesus as adults and all Christians must evangelize.

For those who don't, their Jesus said 'And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me,....for the only way to God is through me.'

To understand this better, read the last paragraph of this link:
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/beyond/beyond08.htm

:)

vicente
9th June 2005, 12:51 AM
Vicente & Cswriter: Your statements seem to overlap. That is interesting. What happened in the 50s in the USA? What was before and what is now?

In 1942 Christianity became the majority religion in America.

In the Yearbooks of American Churches, the census of 1800 showed just 6.9% of US citizens as belonging to a church. By 1850, Church membership rose to 15.5%. In 1900, Christians doubled their number to 37%. But, not until 1942, just 8 years before Senator Joseph McCarthy brought his conservative monotheism into government, and subsequently the Republican Party into the power it knows today, did Christian participation exceed 50%. Vicente Marco

In 1954, the Constitutionally illegal phrase "under God” was added our Pledge of Allegiance. In 1957 the National Motto, E Pluribus Unum (coined by Jefferson, Franklin and Adams) was discarded and replaced with In God We Trust.

These impermissible government endorsements of the monotheism of the majority was the beginning of a long train of abuses which, as the 9th Court said, " send a message to unbelievers that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community."

In essense, they said "Under God" promoted a situation where atheists, polytheists, Buddhists, Deists, Wiccans, Humanists, female based monotheists, etc, are not full members of the Community.

This sentiment was echoed by the first President Bush when he said "I don't know that those who don't should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." George HW Bush, August 27, 1987

The above may lead to the question,...well, isn't America based on majority rule? No, it is not.

[b]America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.

Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.


Vicente
:)

fu*
9th June 2005, 09:37 AM
God must have died around 1950 then?........Too bad.

Seems some who dont believe in time.... are completly lost in it.

I'll post (which means absolutly nothing except black specs on a white screen)and(this will mean nothing to the ones who adore black specs on a white screen) There is not one single second since' thought', that "America" has been "enlightened"

How long will you be a monkey grabbing for the gold ring?
(forgive me true monkeys, I only used you for a point to those who react to even black dots on a white screen)

Crazy aint it?

Thomas Knierim
9th June 2005, 10:31 AM
Thank you, Vicente, for the bits and pieces of history. I did not know that these changes were made in the US. I think it is deplorable, because it constitutes a departure from the ideal of a secular administration. At the same time, it suprises me that this happened in the mid 20th century where the global trend was in favour of secularisation. It is regrettable when you consider that the history of the US begins with immigrants seeking religious freedom.

Cheers, Thomas

vicente
10th June 2005, 01:53 AM
FU*: God must have died around 1950 then?........Too bad.


No,...there was never a god that existed to die. Nor are there black specks on a white screen outside the illusion of perception.

Some may think that the cognition of illusion is too pretend the illusion isn't there, as if positive can be perceived without negative. In addition, some of those also think that understanding that there is no present in time is some sort of nihilist masterbation.

However one wishes to yack about it, the fundamental truth is that there is no instant in time.

Personally, I feel Fu Tsang said it best,..."by jointly discussing noumenon and phenomenon, one reaches the highest consciousness and right understanding among sentient beings" circa 700 CE.

:)

vicente
10th June 2005, 02:07 AM
Thomas: I did not know that these changes were made in the US.

The changes happened sneakily, somewhat like how the latest Star Wars film depicted the undermining of their Republic.


PALPATINE: The war is over. (applause) The Separatists have been defeated, (applause) and the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. We stand on the threshold of a new beginning.

There is a long period of APPLAUSE.

PADME: Well, this is the moment we discover if he intends to return the Republic to a democracy.

PALPATINE: In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for ten thousand years.

There is a loud, sustained CHEER from the Senate. BAIL ORGANA and PADME sit, dumbfounded.

PALPATINE: (continuing) An empire that will continue to be ruled by this august body, and a sovereign ruler chosen for life . . .

The Senate CHEERS again. BAIL and PADME are devastated. PADME begins to cry.

PALPATINE: (continuing) An empire ruled by the majority . . . Ruled by a new constitution . . .

The Senate APPLAUDS.

PADME: So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause . . .

:)