Taoism

[scameter]

Is anyone in this fine religious chat establishment a Taoist, as I am myself? Or, is anyone interested in becoming a Taoist but has questions they'd like to ask, for i can answer them most likely? Or, is someone in here just have a comment on Taoism they'd like to submit? If so, feel free to. :)

[sahyo]

..........................................loving

[scameter]

Originally posted by asheera@May 18 2005, 07:53 AM
..........................................loving
I don't much know what you meant by that. could you explain?

[sahyo]

can't explain

[Thomas Knierim]

I would not call myself a Taoist, but I have studied the Tao Te Ching for 20 years, and the mere reading of this book has once led to a powerful state of altered consciousness. I have also read the Chuang Tzu recently -which is likewise excellent- but I think the Tao Te Ching is unmatched. Here in Thailand, we have many Chinese/Taoist Temples. Many of them contain an extraordinary number of sculptures of Chinese wise men and Taoist figures (of which I recognize very few). The Chinese pay respect to these figures by making sacrifices and donations.

I think Taoism is a very direct route to Eastern wisdom; it is practically free of scholarly frills, which is perhaps one of its most endearing qualities.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

@thomas,

:thumbsup: I completely agree with your view, my friend. I have been studying Taoism now for only about 1 or 2 years, but what i have studied of it has done alot to my conscious mind as well. my life is much more....energetic, i guess i could say. laid back and at ease, i can meditate and feel nature's life force around me. Something else i like alot about Taoism is is that it is mostly uninfluenced by Human rituals. it seems to be more pure than something like Buddhism, which to me has too many rituals, methodologies, and names and symbols and such, as do many other religions. like, the Buddhist teachers are called lamas, where the Taoist ones are merely called Masters. although, if there was a Taoist temple/monastery near where i live, in Georgia, America, then i would join it as soon as possible, for i want so bad to express my want to be more in tune with nature and the Tao, but i don't know how i cannot do that without the henderance of societal annoyances.

[Truthbearer]

Hi Scameter -
I have traversed many ideologies and religions - and, without a doubt, they all held somesort of key, but never enough.. I would keep searching.

Until I discovered Earths Ascension - she is evolving through the 4th dimension, and eventually to the 5th (not for awhile tho).
I kept asking .. is there anything we can do?
Is there anything I can do for you?

And I kept hearing .. 'soul'.
At this stage.. I was going to workshops ad nauseum, to discover more on what this planet of ours was doing.
Meditation courses also.
But I wanted 'communion' .. not just a quiet state of mind.

And I eventually go this communion .. many many souls, have come and gone.. all advising me, mentoring me.
Away from all religions, all dieties - which I held no judgement or attachement of .. I just kept learning and growing.
No dieties .. when one of my mentors is/was Tao Bennelong.. my Source emanating from our Solar Sun (so he/it says)
Still no dieties.
And i started karmic clearing, and now I have come to understand the karma dynamic in a very intrinsic way (thanks to all my beloved souls and Source).
On this planet .. all religions become appropriated by many non-physical beings, that can only exist on our chi.
And they receive this chi, by peoples prayers and adulations.
The prayers for Jesus and Mary, are appropriated by Sananda and Lady Nada.
And the same for many other religions and orders.
(one can substantiate this by muscle-testing, or penduluming).

All of us who have deep spiritual leanings - yearnings.
Will tune into some order, to belong, to be taught (our spirituality).. but it is already there.
Our Souls.
Our Source.. Tao
And what we REALLY want, is this connection.. no?
This connection to be guided.. to understand what our pure spiritual natures can afford/give us.. and what we can give back.
We desire to Love everything .. but we cant.
We want to walk the path of pure spirit .. but we cant.
We see the greed and brutality of our world, but how can we not be a part of it .. detach from it all?
Still be a human loving life.


We want to deeply understand our role in evolving humanity.
(because this also is a deep desire, to evolve)..

This is my story -- If I wasnt to join an order/religion.. no running off to a monestary (soul says 'youve been there done that') then how can I proceed with all that I must learn.?
Learn I did .. I learnt to pendulum and muscle-test.
Because Soul required me to learn my 'Truth' .. and I needed a tool to do this .. because I had just started to 'hear' soul in my meditations (by asking continual questions.. writing answers, sometimes garbled gibberish.. but clarity started to appear .. I started to get answers!!
And there are some non-physical beings, that interfere and distort truth.
So I would pendulum each communion/channelling for authenticity.
Every book, every website, every teaching, "is this my Truth?'
And as one starts to receive communion from their Souls, we understand Soul requires to evolve also).

And from thereon - everything escalated.
I learnt about Soul, Source/Tao, Ascension, Greater Central Sun, karma, etheric body field, planes of realities (that schizophrenics live) dreamtime planes, entities (light and dark), group souls, soul groups.. and so much more.
But the most rewarding and fulfilling in all this, was my connection and communion with Earthmother, and the NatureRealms .. who are wise beyond belief, and will, surprisingly enough, advise one on their own personal ascension/transcendation.
Earthmother knows karma.
Nature Realms know karma (even tho' they are not bound by it).

What I am saying Scameter - ones own perseverence to connect with Soul is the ultimate in ones Spiritual learning, and ultimately ones Spiritual Mastery.
It is ones communion with ones Souls and Source, Earthmother and Nature, that will guide one to their Spiritual Mastery.
This is what they desire for us.
And it is pure perseverence and purpose, that one will succeed.
Not necessarily in a religious order... with many dogmas also.
Dont limit yourself to one teaching brother - dedicate yourself to connecting with Soul and your own Tao. xx
But we do not have a life-time of contemplation and such - there is a planets Ascension in progress.

There is a plan, and a designated path, for us all.
Because in another time and space we have made many agreements.. some we learn to break and discard, and those that include 'ascension' we discover and learn .. and become a devotee to Ascension (and our Souls and Source who guide, and mentor us - for it truly is a Soul dynamic. That is why Soul desires this communion, so we CAN be guided.

Even tho' I was eventually guided to become an initiate of an Ascension School for a little while .. even that, Soul required 'no attachment'.
Whatever I am guided to do or be - no attachments.
And we learn detachment, by seeing our karmas, and learning to divest ourselves from them.
This is the greatest gift we can give Soul, humanity and Earth.
Because we cannot ascend with karmas.. nor with any attachments to religions, nor dieties.
And from my experience of wanting to be a Buddhist this life - I discovered I had deep attachments from pastlife experiences of being such.
As you might have, in your deep desire to become a Taoist.

All for the learning - but keep moving. xx

Namaste
Pat

[scameter]

I am very glad that you have found the religion that harkens your soul and your mind, and i am glad you have apparently found happiness in it. but, my problem with nearly all religions that is not present in Taoism is that of methodologies, rituals, names, symbols, threats("God could take you to Heaven at any time, so be good while you're alive; If you do this, you'll go to Hell.") And, i am just obviously too much of a individualist and a free thinker to follow those sorts of religions. because, at one time i was considering joining a Catholic monastery, but then, i researched into it, and to me they are too much of conformists and standardizationists, and those two concepts are ones that i hate with a deep passion. but, Taoism is void of those idiocies, or at least they are idiocies to me, and leaves room for one to do whatever one desires with their life, but with a field of tenets that help make that life, if adhered to correctly, wonderously enjoyable. and, it also seems to me that Taoism has the best view of Nature; more poetically and spiritually then something to be labeled(as in the pagan/New Age philosophies/religions) or to be broken down(as in science and math) or to be merely another means to be closer to a labeled God(as in Christianity). and, do not think i am denouncing these fine religions/philosophies, for i am not, i am just stating my own personal opinion, for which i believe everyone is entitled their own.

[CSwriter1]

Taoism, sounds appealing. I am not familar with it, as I am mostly focused on democracy as a way of life. However, I do know Chinese is a poetic language which leads to a completely different conscousness than our more materialist English language. If we lived 300 years, I would surely study the Chinese language with the hope of developing that consciousness.

I have a copy of Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics" but I haven't read it. It might be nice if we all shared one book, reading one chapter at a time and sharing on our thoughts on it. Sometimes I feel like the discussions get kind of stuck in opinions and don't progress. I like discussions best when I am motivated to look things up in books.

"The Tao of Physics" is, "The bestseller that reconciles eastern philosohy with western science in a brilliant humanistic vision of the universe". They are cheap when purchased through second hand book dealers.

[scameter]

@cswriter,

Beautiful passage, my friend. that post is evidence of your beauty with words. i am glad you are interested in Taoism, for it pleases me to see those who are. it has been my faith for a while now, although i am of course stil studying it, as an ancient Taoist once said," A Taoist's training in the Way never ends, nor does one's search for peace and the knowledge of it." I am very appealed towards your proposition of our reading from a book, but i did not completely understand what you meant. did you mean each of us from one particular book one of us designates, or from a book of our individual choice, or what? it sounds rather interesting, and different i might add. and, something else is is would you mind elaborating on your democratic way of life's principles and ideals? :) :thumbsup:

[Truthbearer]

Yes Scameter, I think that is why i eventually rejected religions per se (well this life anyway)..all reasons you posted.
I wanted more than they could teach me .. I wanted to know the secrets of the Universe in this life.. not wait till I died.
I wanted to Commune with the Tao - why not? .. and was told why not, so I made inroads to fix that problem..
I was tired of 'second hand' information - olddoctrines being passed down from persons to persons.. that I discovered some were (pastlife) me!!!
so I now had an opportunity to see what they did back then, what they (spiritually ) achieved, if anything.. and what I could do this life, to change anything, be something different.

Lao Tsu I love.. his simplicity and what he achieved in his life .. freedom. (from dieties/religious constraints) ..
and a man called 'Krishmuriti" (I have got that spelling wrong) .. that was designated to lead a spiritual group.. had an 'enlightened' exper
ience, and told everyone 'it was up to everyone to look after their own spirituality', and left .. there are no 'leaders', nor 'followers' (because 'followers' keep wanting to follow (anothers Truth), and a persons Truth and God/Tao is as individual as there are people.

Yes I agree .. when one can look at the spiritual nature and the beauty of all Nature .. we are most definately closer to God/Tao in those moments. Our heart opens, we are grounded to Earth, and Soul for a moment, can be with us.

and of course, everyone can state here their own opinions .. which we fervently do (''passion' in my main 'tone')..xx and I know I have this most irritating way of being so definite in my opinions - please forgive that. It is not meant to 'take' from anyone. xxx


xx

[scameter]

@truthbearer,

You know, the greatest thing that the Tao has biven me is a renewed sense of happiness about things,with an extremely excenuated happiness from the simplicities of life, such as Nature, or something even as simple as breathing a nice breath of freash, cool air and it filling my lungs and my body chills and i feel so comfortable. just, the wonderful simplicities of life are so much more pronouned to me now. but, the sadness of life are also more excenuated to me now;but, those sadnesses are usually cured by something in Taoism. and,just there simple comforts and wisdom make life more enjoyable to me.

[Thomas Knierim]

Carving Up An Ox
From the Chuang Tzu
(Vegetarians please ignore this)

A cook was butchering an ox for Duke Wen Hui.
The places his hand touched,
His shoulder leaned against,
His foot stepped on,
His knee pressed upon,
Came apart with a sound.

He moved the blade, making a noise
That never fell out of rhythm.
It harmonized with the Mulberry Woods Dance,
Like music from ancient times.

Duke Wen Hui exclaimed: "Ah! Excellent!
Your skill has advanced to this level?"

The cook puts down the knife and answered:
"What I follow is Tao,
Which is beyond all skills.

"When I started butchering,
What I saw was nothing but the whole ox.
After three years,
I no longer saw the whole ox.

"Nowadays, I meet it with my mind
Rather than see it with my eyes.
My sensory organs are inactive
While I direct the mind's movement.

"It goes according to natural laws,
Striking apart large gaps,
Moving toward large openings,
Following its natural structure.

"Even places where tendons attach to bones
Give no resistance,
Never mind the larger bones!

"A good cook goes through a knife in a year,
Because he cuts.
An average cook goes through a knife in a month,
Because he hacks.

"I have used this knife for nineteen years.
It has butchered thousands of oxen,
But the blade is still like it's newly sharpened.

"The joints have openings,
And the knife's blade has no thickness.
Apply this lack of thickness into the openings,
And the moving blade swishes through,
With room to spare!

"That's why after nineteen years,
The blade is still like it's newly sharpened.

"Nevertheless, every time I come across joints,
I see its tricky parts,
I pay attention and use caution,
My vision concentrates,
My movement slows down.

"I move the knife very slightly,
Whump! It has already separated.
The ox doesn't even know it's dead,
and falls to the ground like mud.

"I stand holding the knife,
And look all around it.
The work gives me much satisfaction.
I clean the knife and put it away."

Duke Wen Hui said: "Excellent!
I listen to your words,
And learn a principle of life."

[Truthbearer]

... and the ox said
#@*$ you..
you have just diefied
in the name of my Tao also,
the knifely expertise
of death.

The arrogance of humans,
to think Tao and God belong to them.

(even tho, this was pure analogy on Oneness .. I couldnt resist)
xx

[scameter]

Nice quote, Thomas.

I have a question mainly aimed at you, Thomas, but anyone can comment of course:
Chapter 19
Get rid of the wise men!
Put out the professors!
Then people will profit
A hundredfold over.
Away with the kind ones;
Those righteous men too!
And let people return
To the graces of home.
Root out the artisans;
Banish the profiteers!
And bandits and robbers
Will not come to plunder.
But if these three prove not enough
To satisfy the mind and heart,
More relevent, then, let there be
A visible simplicity of life,
Embracing unpretentious ways,
And small self-interest
And poverty of coveting.
Now, my particular translation, by R.B.Blakney, states a comment at the end of this chapter that says that this was during the Chou period of the Chinese dynasties and that the Confucionists were mainly scholars and artisans and such as it describes in this chapter, and Lao Tzu rejected them, and wished for society to only rely on the wisdom and goodness that came naturally from the people. But, the translator also remarked an inquiry into the career or writers, if Lao Tze rejected writers or not. I would love to hear your view in respect of this chapter and inquiry.

[abba]

What a difference in translators! Rosenthal renders thusly:19. RETURNING TO NATURALNESS

It is better merely to live one's life,
realizing one's potential,
rather than wishing
for sanctification.

He who lives in filial piety and love
has no need of ethical teaching.

When cunning and profit are renounced,
stealing and fraud will disappear.
But ethics and kindness, and even wisdom,
are insufficient in themselves.

Better by far to see the simplicity
of raw silk's beauty
and the uncarved block;
to be one with onself,
and with one's brother.
It is better by far
to be one with the Tao,
developing selflessness,
tempering desire,
removing the wish,
but being compassionate.
Blakeley seems to describe Lao's philosophy as a militant liberalism (or Chinese Luddism) compared to the peaceful poetry of Rosenthal. One struggles to see in Rosenthal's rendering the bold statements that come from Blakeley. Yes, there is a faint correspondence; but they almost seem to come from 2 different origins.

What to do? Continue to study?? But that way strengthens desire for knowledge. Better to passively observe?? But doesn't that abandon all others to the illusion? :duh:

[Truthbearer]

Learn a discernment tool - if communion is not happening.
Muscle-testing or penduluming ones bodytruth.

We cannot spend our precious lives, constantly reading and studying other truths, that maybe are not our own.

There comes a time when one must practise what they have learnt.

And this can be the rub - practise what?
Compassion?
Love?
Humility?
(piousness implies no passion - no love)
when all the time we have karmas to address.

One can then, muscle-test everything they read "Is this my Truth?".
And your 'muscle-reaction', or your pendulum will say yes or no.

At least one will start to read relevant information for their spiritual truth.
Many old doctrines and such, are spiritual truths, but not 'ascension truths'.
We are now using our spirituality to ascend - so we need new information.
i got the most instructions on how to ascend from www.ascendpress.org and my own 'ascension team' .. soul guidance.
(even tho' I have tuned into many doctrines/masters and so forth.. and many workshops .. the most I learnt.. information that I could 'use' in a very integral way for my own ascension, was from this website)

Many lightworkers have said 'Intuition is enough' - it is not enough.
Or else they would be clearing some karmas - and they are not.

This is called 'inner work' - it takes focus, time and effort.
But it pays off.

Once one does a moderate amount of this 'work' - their true spiritual purpose is then revealed, and not until.

Namaste
Pat

[sahyo]

There are the ones who do not like to leave their footprints when they are walking on sands, and they try to avoid doing that by running faster and faster. However, the faster they run the more footprints they leave.

There are also the ones who'd like to catch beautiful shadows of truth as they're dreaming of, and they run after them every second. However, the faster they run after them, the farther behind they are left.

Both of them do not know that if they stop running and sit down for a little while, then there is no more fooprint they'd make and what they're seeking is right under their noses.


ChonTri

[abba]

Excellent replies. Reminds me of the Zen koan:

Before I became enlightened, I chopped wood and hauled water to make tea.

After I became enlightened, I chopped wood and hauled water to make tea.

and also:

If you meet Buddha by the side of the road, kill him.

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: Now, my particular translation, by R.B.Blakney, states a comment at the end of this chapter that says that this was during the Chou period of the Chinese dynasties and that the Confucionists were mainly scholars and artisans and such as it describes in this chapter, and Lao Tzu rejected them, and wished for society to only rely on the wisdom and goodness that came naturally from the people.

Yes, the Taoists were opposed to the Confucianists. Whenever Lao Tzu refers to the "benevolent" or the "learned" or the "scholars" he means the Confucianist state of mind which values morality, benevolence, learning, and so on. Lao Tzu sees artificiality in it and opposes it. His idea is: back to nature and people will become naturally good.

The Blakney translation pushes this point quite a bit and exaggerates it in my view. Just for comparison, here is another translation of Tolbey McCarroll -meanwhile my favourite next to the Feng & English translation - where the whole thing is more toned down:

-19-

Stop being learned and your troubles will end.

Give up wisdom, discard cleverness,
and the people will benefit a hundredfold.

Give up benevolence, discard moral judgments,
and the people will rediscover natural compassion.

Give up shrewdness, discard gain,
and thieves and robbers will disappear.

These three false adornments are not enough to live by.
They must give way to something more solid.
Look for what is simple and hold onto the Uncarved Block.
Diminish thoughts of self and restrain desires.



Cheers, Thomas

[Truthbearer]

I guess if you dont want to leave footprints, dont walk on sand.. climb the mountain instead.

And yes I agree with Chontri ..
It IS right under our noses.
And it IS only when we stop running.
Still our minds constantly enough to hear something different.( maybe where we HAVE left our footprints, and now need to smooth the sand). :unsure:

And yes we still have to chop wood and make the tea.

But we dont kill Buddha - we do our karma with him. xx

I agree with LaoTsu Thomas .. there IS an artificiality in benevolence and morality .. and learning - because in its strange way, 'learning' can give a person arrogance (depending on what one is learning - one can come to a state of mind that they know it all - and therefore will cause one to become arrogant).. or maybe I dont mean 'artificiality'.. i really mean arrogance (because I see arrogance in the other two also).

xx Pat

[White_Lotus_9]

So I have recently found for the first time a decent idealogy that suits my spiritual needs. Taoism is very complex, more complex than I think we can comprehend, we can only guess at it's true meaning, which is what makes it so diverse. If you look deep enough there is something for everyone it is so definite down to a T yet undefinable. It's hard to say what Lao tzu's true intentions were when he wrote the Tao Te Ching, however I do believe that he intended for his work to decend down many generations he wouldn't have disapeered otherwise. If you know you were going to right something so controversal I don't think you would want others asking whats what. I think Lao Tzu wanted us to figure it out for ourselves. I know that this idea or thought...whatever you may call it is quite obvious however sometimes it's impportant to pay attention to whats right in front of you

[Thomas Knierim]

White_Lotus_9: If you know you were going to right something so controversal I don't think you would want others asking whats what. I think Lao Tzu wanted us to figure it out for ourselves.

Yes, you are probably right about that. I think the success of the Tao The Ching is due to two things -apart from the fact that is has miraculously survived throughout the ages- the beauty of its composition and its spiritual depth.

The beauty of its composition lies partly in its terseness, partly in its poetic properties, and partly in the arrangement of the verses. What concerns the arrangement, I like to compare it to the 5th symphony of Beethoven which opens with the phenomenal resounding main theme. Likewise, the Tao Te Ching's first verse contains the most important statement, its essence, right at the beginning.

The spiritual depth arises from the successful application of language to something which cannot be expressed in language. In other words, the Tao Te Ching manages to point at the ineffable truth without replacing that which is pointed at with the pointer, or... The Tao that can be spoken of is not the real Tao.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Yes, i am a very devout philosophical Taoist and i find it to also to greatly suffice for my idealological and spiritual beliefs and patterns. i have studied into my philosophy extensively, and i have nearly memorized it's main tenets, if not completely. i have read many books relating to it, and am finishing the Tao Te Ching as i go along. but, the most rewarding thing about Taoism is to live the life as is prescribed in the Tao Te Ching, to be compassionate, patient, accepting, unattached, yeilding, living in the moment. it is very rewarding, and i am proud that you have also seen that path to be yours, white lotus.to me, another thing that is very amazing about it is is that it seems to have a solution to every inquiry, particularly those relating to philosophy or life, and that is different from any other way of life. it is so true, so realistic, yet spiritual; balanced.

White_Lotus: I think Lao Tzu wanted us to figure it out for ourselves. I know that this idea or thought...whatever you may call it is quite obvious however sometimes it's impportant to pay attention to whats right in front of you

yes, i think that's true. one of the main tenets of Taoism is life expierence, and that means to find out things first-hand. and, it is very important to pay attention to what's right in front of you. if people really would realize what is there how it is, then life could possess alot more simplicity.

Thomas:I like to compare it to the 5th symphony of Beethoven which opens with the phenomenal resounding main theme. Likewise, the Tao Te Ching's first verse contains the most important statement, its essence, right at the beginning.

yes, that's also what i find that i do sometimes. i also like how it is just right there; there's no messing around or jumping around ideas. it gets right to the point, which i like.

[Enigma]

One should not limit the Tao or The Way to much to words or concepts that you already have of it, cause if you do, you are limiting The Tao and restricting and trapping what it really is into a word or name that you can see. This is why defining and trapping The Way into precepts/concepts is not recommended.

Yin and Yang, the positive and negative forces in nature, consciousness and the subconsciousness, the passive and the active, to go with the flow, to not get into the way of nature but to co-exist with it. For if either negative(yin) or positive(yang) forces overlap each other, it will corrupt and disturb and destroy both.

The Way teaches us to go with the flow, to not create disturbances unnecessarily.

Only when we go with the flow, we can become a passive undisturbing force, which would allow us to distance ourselves from other active forces that are not of us. Detachment.

To love is to understand(passive yin) people, things or thoughts, either alive or dead. To love is to observe and understand the identity of a thing or a person, passively without disturbing its identity. Love is never a desire, it is a passive force of knowing and understanding.

There are people who think Love is to have emotional desire to "spread love" or to show love very actively(action). That is not love but only desire and maybe lust for the human body(material desire), which is an active force and creates disturbances within the balanced forces of yin and yang in the mind and in nature.

One practising "The Way" has to thread carefully in his steps, balancing both yin and yang carefully, for if this fails anytime, a disturbance and disorder is created and the flow of the Way is disrupted.

The Tao Te Ching is just primitive mumbo jumbo that does not apply much to our advanced life today. I say this be cause I understand chinese, chinese is quite a primitive language, its encoding of concepts is quite restrictive and not as advanced as English. One should not think that the Tao Te Ching teaches everything about The Way, most of it is elsewhere.

[scameter]

Enigma:One should not limit the Tao or The Way to much to words or concepts that you already have of it, cause if you do, you are limiting The Tao and restricting and trapping what it really is into a word or name that you can see. This is why defining and trapping The Way into precepts/concepts is not recommended.

yes, that is true. "The truw Tao can not be spoken through words," as the Tao Te Ching says. and, personal expierence is one of the key tenets of Taoism.

Enigma:Yin and Yang, the positive and negative forces in nature, consciousness and the subconsciousness, the passive and the active, to go with the flow, to not get into the way of nature but to co-exist with it. For if either negative(yin) or positive(yang) forces overlap each other, it will corrupt and disturb and destroy both.

yes, true. the yin and yang represent the opposites of existence.

Enigma:The Way teaches us to go with the flow, to not create disturbances unnecessarily.

true, unless disturbances are necessary.

Enigma:Only when we go with the flow, we can become a passive undisturbing force, which would allow us to distance ourselves from other active forces that are not of us. Detachment.

yes, very true. but, that passifism should not outweigh the masculine aggressiveness. they should be in balance.

Enigma:To love is to understand(passive yin) people, things or thoughts, either alive or dead. To love is to observe and understand the identity of a thing or a person, passively without disturbing its identity. Love is never a desire, it is a passive force of knowing and understanding.

yes, true. but, do not let that compassion form attachments. and, expect no certain outcome or reward for your compassion, and do not seek personal gratification from your compassion.and, keep that femininity, but allow some masculinity at least.because, understanding creates wisdom, and virtue, being wisdom in action, is key to Taoism.

Enigma:There are people who think Love is to have emotional desire to "spread love" or to show love very actively(action). That is not love but only desire and maybe lust for the human body(material desire), which is an active force and creates disturbances within the balanced forces of yin and yang in the mind and in nature.

true.

Enigma:One practising "The Way" has to thread carefully in his steps, balancing both yin and yang carefully, for if this fails anytime, a disturbance and disorder is created and the flow of the Way is disrupted.

yes, imbalance creates suffering.

Enigma:The Tao Te Ching is just primitive mumbo jumbo that does not apply much to our advanced life today. I say this be cause I understand chinese, chinese is quite a primitive language, its encoding of concepts is quite restrictive and not as advanced as English. One should not think that the Tao Te Ching teaches everything about The Way, most of it is elsewhere.

please! this is completely false! the Tao Te Ching is primitive, and so it retains all of it's beauty and signifigance because it is not stained by modernism.Chinese is a very beautiful, expressive language, pure in it's form and grammer, unlike English which has been stained by the invasion of other languages, like French, and has also been stained by modern technological conformity and ebonics. yes, personal expierence is key to the Taoist Way, as is the Tao Te Ching. i appreciate you trying to teach me about Taoism but i have studied it extensively and do not need the basics to be reuttered to me, especially followed by such falseness as your last paragraph. it is your opinion, but please do not try to thrust such negative opinions onto me.

[Enigma]

You should understand that my post was not for you only, and if you really knew what I wrote sbout The Way beforehand, I do not think you would need to reaffirm what I wrote paragrah by paragraph, to yourself. I think you would need more practise in the Tao to free yourself from "negative emotionally biased thoughts". I have nothing more to say here cause the Tao in me says, "Whatever".

[scameter]

:duh: i am sorry. please excuse my idiocy, mocking, and unneeded self-centered repition of your words. you have free reign to not like me, but i hope that your opinion of me will not be tainted by my offensive idiocy. i am very, very sorry. i meant no offense by my words. :tao: :reallysad:

[Thomas Knierim]

Enigma: To love is to understand(passive yin) people, things or thoughts, either alive or dead. To love is to observe and understand the identity of a thing or a person, passively without disturbing its identity.

This is a very interesting question: Is love a Yin force? Or is it both Yin and Yang?

The Greek philosopher Empedocles had a theory about two fundamental world principles which he called love and strife, or respectively attraction and repulsion. The analogy to the Chinese Yin (love) and Yang (strife) is obvious. Empedocles held that the Universe periodically expands under the force of strife and contracts under the force of love (see Greek Philosophy (http://www.thebigview.com/greeks/) for more on Empedocles). Love unites and strife divides. So, according to Empedocles love can be seen as a pure Yin force.

On the other hand, it is difficult to imagine love as pure Yin energy because of what you said: "to love is to understand". Thus love is partly a cognitive function. The understanding requires cognitive effort, identification. It requires mental penetration, an energetic exploring activity, which is clearly a Yang energy. Without this Yang energy, love would be reduced to passive attraction, an unintelligent mindless acceptance of whatever comes to pass. Thus I think the human/mammalian principle of love contains both Yin and Yang aspects.

Enigma: The Tao Te Ching is just primitive mumbo jumbo that does not apply much to our advanced life today.

I think it is still relevant. Even the passages about states, rulers and soldiers which are rooted in ancient Chinese politics and which one might deem outdated are still applicable to contemporary politics.

Enigma: I say this be cause I understand chinese, chinese is quite a primitive language, its encoding of concepts is quite restrictive and not as advanced as English.

Are you a Chinese native speaker? I think Chinese is not primitive (on the contrary, it's fairly complex) but it is definitely very ancient. It is a logo-syllabic pictorial language with a very basic morphology. It springs from a pictorial way of thought, which is comparable only to Western languages that have long disappeared. What surprises me is that written Chinese has survived in this form without ever developing an alphabet. Perhaps it is due to the fact that China preserved political unity and cultural identity for such a long time.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Thomas:Thus I think the human/mammalian principle of love contains both Yin and Yang aspects.

That's true. i think love, as with everything else, requires a balance of the opposites, Yin and Yang.

Thomas:I think it is still relevant. Even the passages about states, rulers and soldiers which are rooted in ancient Chinese politics and which one might deem outdated are still applicable to contemporary politics.

I'm glad you agree. :)

Thomas:Are you a Chinese native speaker? I think Chinese is not primitive (on the contrary, it's fairly complex) but it is definitely very ancient. It is a logo-syllabic pictorial language with a very basic morphology. It springs from a pictorial way of thought, which is comparable only to Western languages that have long disappeared. What surprises me is that written Chinese has survived in this form without ever developing an alphabet. Perhaps it is due to the fact that China preserved political unity and cultural identity for such a long time.

Very well put, my friend Thomas. :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

:o wow interesting stuff. i enjoyed the reading and got my brain going. i have read about Tao not very much but enough to make me more interested in it. i also like a lot of ideas it has as well. i do not have a religion .... not yet anyways i am only 17 years old and my childhood was kind of chaotic and i was never even introduced to any religion or teachings of any kind. i am searching for what i think is right. but the world is so confusing and every one has so many ideas that i dont know... life it self is very confusing so any infomation about anything i will read. i am trying to understand as much as i can before a try searching for any religion or "way". i enjoy the readings .. i wish i could jump in to the convosation more but ... i dont really have any ideas about it.

-will

oh ya sorry that my sentences and grammer are horrible im trying to work on it =\

[sahyo]

i dont really have any ideas about it.

wonderful :thumbsup:

oh ya sorry that my sentences and grammer are horrible im trying to work on it =\

no problem reading :)

[Truthbearer]

My take on love -

U/C Love accepts and allows- has no judgement. To come to this state one 'understands' .. we are no more, no less than each other..ever.
(even the perpetrayer.. the violent..the harmful..)
Thomas I see 'understands' from a different persepctiv e.
more as an intuitive knowing.. rather than a cognitive thinking experience.

Hello William - what a perfect space to be in !!.. no 'beliefs' to have to disprove .. no 'dogmas' conditioning your life -
'believe nothing and disbelieve everything' as someone quoted here on another thread.
Namaste
Pat

[WilliamMckeehan]

thanks asheera... your very understanding.

and truthbearer ya i guess it is a good space to be in. i will remember that quote.



-Will

[scameter]

yes, it is. just be open about your beliefs, study about Taoism, live the way as it prescribes, and you will enjoy it, trust me. i do it most, or all, of the time.

[sahyo]

will :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

scameter- yes i see what you mean thats the reason people get beliefs specialy something like Taoism. you will be much happyer if you follow it i try to not follow it but think there its view and yes it can make things much more "GREAT" i just dont understand it enough yet.



asheera- you dont say much but that is never a bad thing B)

[scameter]

well, i hope you do try to study Taoism and maybe even to live as it prescribes, and don't just read the Tao Te Ching; to be honest, and this is going to sound odd but two of the books that have helped me alot with my Taoist studies are the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet, which are very openly explanatory and descriptive in the teachings of the Way and it's Power.

Will:asheera- you dont say much but that is never a bad thing B)

Well, as is said in the Tao Te Ching,"The true Tao can not be spoken through words, but expierenced." :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

i see i might try and get more infomation on the subject.

scameter- i have noticed that you really like to share Taoism and you try to get more people into it. every time some one does that it normaly means they enjoy it a lot. sharing is always a good thing


stay cool



-will

[sahyo]

asheera- you dont say much but that is never a bad thing B)

B) ...some people don't like that don't write like they like

[sahyo]

can not be spoken through words



:D

[WilliamMckeehan]

:thumbsup:

[scameter]

Will:i see i might try and get more infomation on the subject.
scameter- i have noticed that you really like to share Taoism and you try to get more people into it. every time some one does that it normaly means they enjoy it a lot. sharing is always a good thing
stay cool

I'm so glad you think of it that way. i really do hope you do try to study more about Taoism, as it is a great part of my life and an enjoyment in it that wouldn't be there otherwise. and yes, i do like to share Taoism with everyone i see because i do love it as it has done alot for me and has granted me alot of happiness and clarity that i wish everyone to be able to expierence. for instance, yesterday i was talking to this woman on Yahoo Messenger about an incident in here life, and i was giving her advice accompanied with Taoist virtue, and it has really helped her. and that gives me much satisfaction to be able to do. i am glad, so glad, that you see me as 'cool'. :)
:tao:

[WilliamMckeehan]

ya "cool" is the word or i think so :thumbsup:

that is one thing i have found... helping and being nice to people really makes me feel good i like to do it.. i dont really socialize but when i do it is nice to find some one that is nice =D but that also means being nice makes people think your a wimp and try and pick on you =\ i would rather just be left alone... i dont like trying to "act tuff" or whatever it sucks way too much i really wish every one would just calm down and relax. it is so much better that way


-will

[scameter]

Will:that is one thing i have found... helping and being nice to people really makes me feel good i like to do it.. i dont really socialize but when i do it is nice to find some one that is nice =D but that also means being nice makes people think your a wimp and try and pick on you =\ i would rather just be left alone... i dont like trying to "act tuff" or whatever it sucks way too much i really wish every one would just calm down and relax. it is so much better that way

as have i. of course, it is my natural nature. when and if i try to be mean i find that i cannot be, or that i do do it and feel absolutely terrible afterwards. i'm not trying to sound like a saint, but i am just saying how i am. and, i don't socialize either, except to people on thebigview.com and on Yahoo Messenger. and, do not let people pick on you for possessing compassion, as compassion is a gift not a weakness. Buddha said life is suffering but i disagree; i think life is a war, and you must fight in it to live. as someone said, i can't really remember,"Life will either break you or kill you." but, the world will have to kill me, as i will never be broken and i will fight until the world does kill me, and if it does i will welcome death in a fight as to me dying while fighting is a good, acceptable death.and, i also do not try to act tough at all, believe me, and i also wish what you wish for people. but, as i said, life is a war, and i will fight in it until it either kills me or it surrenders to me. :boxing: :D

[WilliamMckeehan]

ya i understand what you mean.

[sahyo]

life is a war, and i will fight in it until it either kills me or it surrenders to me.

does watering surrender fireing?

does fireing surrender watering?

is wateringfireing war?


;)

[WilliamMckeehan]

interesting <_<

[sahyo]

:)

[WilliamMckeehan]

:thumbsup:

[scameter]

asheera:does watering surrender fireing?
does fireing surrender watering?
is wateringfireing war?

and, for my usual reply to asheera's rather odd remarks: :blink: <_<

[scameter]

asheera:does watering surrender fireing?
does fireing surrender watering?
is wateringfireing war?

and, for my usual reply to asheera's rather odd remarks: :blink: <_<

Will:interesting <_<

my sentiments exactly, just elaborated apon with a slight :blink: to add flavor :D

[WilliamMckeehan]

asheera seems to be very original ... and has been here for a while :blink: :lol:

[scameter]

yeah, true :blink: :lol: :D

[scameter]

yeah, true :blink: :lol: :D

[sahyo]

:lol:

[scameter]

so, back to the conversation...... :D

[WilliamMckeehan]

:o ya sorry to get off topic ... i think i might do that too much :o

[scameter]

obviously i do to. :D

[WilliamMckeehan]

i really like the ideas of taoism

but the sad news is i will never really follow any religion
but if i ever had one Taoism is it :thumbsup:
but i am too consumed in present life
i am actualy going to live my life

the meaning of life is happyness... once you finaly "see heaven" you will always be at peace with your self and any hard task will be so simple and easy you wont mind even if ur life is hard :D


what i mean by "see heaven" is seeing the beauty in life having no hate and just feeling good
probably most of you dont agree but it doesnt matter

i am happy


*cheers, live long and find love* :thumbsup:

[scameter]

I agree completely. And i am very glad to hear that you are happy, i hate it when people are not. Mainly because, as the Eagles band said, we have chains and don't even realise we have the key to unlock them. But, you are mistaking Taoism for the common religion. For one, it is not a religion; it is a philosophy, a philosophy of life. It's instructions are to have no instructions, to live life deliberately as Thoreau said. "To suck all the marrow out of life." You being happy and believeing that happiness is the objective of life is Taoist, but honestly, the objective and meaning of life is extremely simple, which is why most people can't see it: That we are here, and that life exists, and identity. As Shakespeare said,"That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse." :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

ahh i see my mistake about Taoism ... i think a can relate to it more then i think?
i agree with a lot of it if not all of it :D
but thank you scameter :thumbsup:

[scameter]

No problem my friend. And honestly you aren't supposed to agree with all of it. It is just merely stating how life it's self is, there is nothing to agree or disagree about. It's simple. :) And just so that you know, whereas alot of religions and philosophies contain dogma and impracticallity, Taoism was specifically meant to be practical to life. And where alot of modern Westerners are rather practical, i think that this would be a good insertion for them. :)

[WilliamMckeehan]

:o oh i see thank you for clearing that up :D

:thumbsup:

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: But, you are mistaking Taoism for the common religion. For one, it is not a religion; it is a philosophy, a philosophy of life.

It is definitely also a religion. Not in your corner of the world (America), but in mine (Asia). There are Taoist temples, Taoist priests, and Taoists worshippers, Taoist ceremonies, and there is a Taoist canon, the Taozang, which comprises the "holy" scriptures of Taoism. It definitely has the full scope of a religion.

There is one crucial difference, however. Taoism is not belief-based as it does not require the belief in any gods. On the other hand, Taoism leans strongly towards the animistic beliefs of ancient China, and thus most Taoist believe in supernatural entities, such as ghosts and natural/spiritual forces.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

Yes my friend, but i meant that my description of it was it's philosophical not religious side. Sorry for the lack of clarity. And your second paragraph i think could also be contributed to the philosophical side of Taoism, mainly because Taoists are taught to see things as they are and in a whole spectrum of life, and thus if ghosts and supernaturality is present here, which to them it may very well be, then it is apart of both the philosophical and religious sides. :)

[venom mama]

i wish i could go to a taoist temple




maybe one day

i love tao

[scameter]

Yes me too. I would actually like to join a Taoist monestary. If that type of life would suit me.

[scameter]

"Grace" and "blame" are too conceptual for Taoism. The Tao is defined as the Way or Path, and usually they refer to that path as life. Te is the power of the Tao in action and through us.

[scameter]

Ah, forgive me for trying. It won't happen again. :)

[Smurf]

well actually Psyche, i think it does describe the Tao!
that you let youself flow with the Tao without regrets or blames? :P

[scameter]

:)

[locomotive]

what books are like tao te ching?

[scameter]

None really. There are some related to Taoism of course, like the I Ching, and works by others affiliated with Taoism, such as the books, both Zen and Taoist, of Osho and Alan Watts. :) All books relating to the Asian consciousness is related to Taoism, Zen, Buddhism, and Asia's oher conscious-produced products. :)

[locomotive]

that sucks. I want books that have examples of tao.

[locomotive]

yeah I have read it but I want more examples because it is cool.

[locomotive]

wait, I read the tao te ching. Whats the I ching?

[locomotive]

do you think a comprehension of the tao is required to understand the book? Does it give examples to explain the "theories"/observations presented? Does it have logic or is it a doctrine?

[locomotive]

hmm I need to find it first.

[scameter]

Saying that you can understand, conceive of, or comprehend the Tao is evasive of the thoughts listed in the Taoist philosophy. Tao is something residing within and around all, and is all, and it's power is illustrated in the Te. Conceptuality is too limited for the Tao. The Taoist principle of wu wei clearly illustrates this.

[locomotive]

yeah I know that.. but you can still see examples of the tao.

[scameter]

Well of course. The Tao is both everything and nothing at once. Anything you think or feel or see or hear or anything, and nothing at once, is Tao.

[locomotive]

So there is nothing to teach or write about or even call the tao?

[Venus]

I'm not sure about Tao. I'm not going to assume something and make a mistake...

[Smurf]

Hey Scam did you suggest he read the Tao of Pooh or the Te of Piglet?

[scameter]

Everything is the Tao locomotive. The reason the Tao Te Ching and all the other Taoist books were made were to conceptualize the experiencial life of the Tao. In it, it says that the Tao is only felt by experience. That all lingual transference of it make it second-hand. And, I would probably recommend you read the Tao of Pooh first. I read the Te of Piglet first, but that's because I was lending it's former to my friend. I actually liked the latter better though, personally. :)

[locomotive]

does anyone have a I ching ebook?

[Venus]

I don't, sorry.

[scameter]

Nope, and honestly I'm surprised that Thomas hasn't posted one on this site yet.

[locomotive]

did he post other ebooks?

[scameter]

No, but he has posted documents, such as the Tao Te Ching and the Dharma I think, but I know the former is on here. :)

[locomotive]

cool

[Thomas Knierim]

scameter: Nope, and honestly I'm surprised that Thomas hasn't posted one on this site yet.

There is a reason for that. I never found the book particularly useful. But, if you must....

There is one I Ching resource with many links to free translations and commentaries: http://pacificcoast.net/~wh/Index.html

Cheers, Thomas

[locomotive]

thanks man, I searched for it and all I got was some kind of fortune telling with coins. ow and useful for what?

[scameter]

:D I happen to agree Thomas; but, I disaree not with it it's self, but with people's translation of it. In it, it does predict the future yes, but it also says that the future is fluid and ephemeral. It's not some concrete prophecy work, like that of Nostradamus.

[locomotive]

why mystical

[locomotive]

and that you call mystical? haha
Ow and if it's a book that talks about things then you just read it over and over again. When you are talking with people you would expect them to interact with you.

[locomotive]

yeah I sense you don't know what you are talking about

[scameter]

I agree psyche. Honestly, I think people that are actually human or that are enlightened try to believe that anyone can be like that, when in reality the majority of people lack that capability.

[locomotive]

actually human!? is there a capability you need to have to become enlightend? Do I have a handicap? all interesting questions..

[locomotive]

from how I think of the buddhist teachings, you are actually not compassionate about them but ab out yourself, since they have a inpact on you, you respect them

[scameter]

She wasn't necessarily talking about buddhism. In both Zen and especially in Taoism, compassion is essential because all sentient life is a sort of ocean and when we do not respect and feel compassionate for the rest of the ocean, a ripple, and often a destructive one, can occur, which is unwanted and even resembles their views regarding simplicity, humility, patience, acceptance, and wu wei. :)

[locomotive]

yes thank you for sharing that. I wanted to say that you do all of this for survival.

[Smurf]

yes thank you for sharing that. I wanted to say that you do all of this for survival.

as in he is afraid of dying? i don't understand the context locomotive?

[scameter]

Survival to me seems to be something defined by humans for a representation of our fear of death and our desire to live, usually applied with physical homeostasis and health. It is a conscious faculty; microscopic lifeforms do not contemplate survival just as they do not contemplate death, nor do they contemplate at all. :)

[locomotive]

no I didn't mean conscious decision. I meant that your beeing, the brain, everything about you has it's will to live, just like a bacteria and an atom. If you are enlightend then you could die it doesn't matter but until then.. The world revolves around you but since the world is you , you observe it carefully and acknowledge it. That is what people refer to as respect and compassion etc. You are just one of the many that is one but because you have a unique role in that oneness you well seem seperate thats all.
I was just saying from the brains perspective that it uses the surroundings around him to survive but I guess in the perspective of the universe your brain is just a part of it.
:)

[scameter]

:) I see what you mean, but a bacteria or an atom has no will; will is a conscious effort, which is something both lack. They merely unconsciously try and even exist for the entire purpose living. Which is why there are so many intricacies to the human civilization: we have been able to give to ourselves a society in which fear of the environment is replaced by, mainly, fear of other humans. We are able to have a life of luxury in which conceptual thought and invention are able to take place, as well as decision. And, oddly, your view on the oneness of humanity and even of life sound similar to that of Hinduism, in which acts done reverberate throughout existence. :)

[locomotive]

Ok I could have replaced the word will with action.
humans can remember every conscious act. Because of the free time people have where they do not need to search for food and such they start making inventions. In dire situations people let go of allot of things. let go of self.

[scameter]

Well, what you said would make sense if decision was substitued with action, yes. And, about the last sentence of what you just said, people are too egotistical and fearful to ever let go of self, nor do they know how, unless they essentially spend their lives in this attempt, and even then it is a frail chance of success.

[locomotive]

ok

[scameter]

:)

[locomotive]

This brings up another topic. Can they get rid of self? Will they all commit suicide?
Trying to let go of self won't do any good. The important factor is rethinking, moving. This can happen any time anywhere. Also the wisdom of how the lack of self still gives results, security and such can come if the lesson is noticed, grasped and realized. I think someone that is depended on himself frequently has the most chance of getting this. Chances are small indeed.

[Thomas Knierim]

Apropos Taoism:

This website (http://www.universal-tao.com/) from Taoist Master Mantak Chia offers some free videos, audio files and articles about aspects of the Taoist teachings. - You might like it. - Master Chia was born in Thailand and operates a retreat center in Chiang Mai, the city where I live now.

Cheers, Thomas

[scameter]

When you say "moving", you speak of it as if it should take effort; in Taoism, wu wei eliminates that by saying that we have no-thought, effortless action, and flow/move as would a river, moved by other factors, not it's self, and without mind.

[locomotive]

no moving in the sense that you let go and go in the wu wei state thingy.
Owjeh great thomas, if anyone wants mantak chia ebooks I have plenty for you. There are some craazy theories. Like seeing people around you in infrared through the mind.

[scameter]

Ok then, that makes sense. :)

[scameter]

Ah, now you're replicating locomotive's "crude sarcasm"? What "wu wei thingys" do you mean?

[scameter]

:sweat: :D I knew you were kidding, and so were I. :P

[Thomas Knierim]

locomotive: Owjeh great thomas, if anyone wants mantak chia ebooks I have plenty for you. There are some craazy theories.

Yes, some of Mantak Chia's views are a bit on the whacky side. At least they are from the present point of view of science. Take the Feng Shui thing for example. Can you explain it? I certainly can't. Nevertheless, I am currently in the process of designing a house. My wife wants it to be Feng Shui proof. So I guess, I will be learning many new things. It complicates the design process, but I am willing to bow to the wisdom of China. ;)

locomotive i must object to your crude sarcasm toward thomas...you as we all are are a guest here...and he deserves our respect or we should not be here...

Very kind of you, psyche, but never mind. It's okay for locomotive to be critical. Actually, it's good. An enquiring mind is a critical mind.

Cheers, Thomas

[MidnightSun]

My wife wants it to be Feng Shui proof. So I guess, I will be learning many new things

:lol:

[scameter]

And can also be an inconsiderate, cynical, and uncompassionate mind, Thomas.

[locomotive]

"owjeh" put you offgaurd huh. It was more a sort of ow yeah that thing exists kind of saying. I actually find the stuff really cool.
so yeah, you all suck but it's all good.

[scameter]

We all suck what?

[locomotive]

nothing in paticulair

[Smurf]

we suck at not being ourselves! :) :P

[bedhead_beauty]

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

[WilliamMckeehan]

:thumbsup:

[bedhead_beauty]

For a long time I thought I was athiest. My parents let me choose what I believe in. I was raised Christian, but never really believed in a "end all, be all" higher power to believe in.. I just wanted to be a better person. I read a book with mention of the Tao in it, and then went out and got a translation of it and thought it was beautiful. I found that it gave me so much to think about and that maybe I don't know as much about religion as I used to.. So now I'm on a search to find out what else I may believe in.. In the end I'm sure I will finish a "religious mutt" <_< :D

[scameter]

Well, however, do not confuse philosophical Taoism with religious Taoism, they're very distinct; which you may very well not be, but just sos you know. :) An excellent article on it is on wikipedia.com. Welcome to thebigview.com :)

[bedhead_beauty]

Goes to show how distinct I am... I didn't even think about the fact that there might be a difference between philosophical taoism and religious taoism.. Whole new perspective! Thanks for the website.. very interesting!

[scameter]

Indeed, and no problem my friend. Enjoy the experience. :)

[MidnightSun]

My parents let me choose what I believe in

Thats how i would want to raise my kids :P

[scameter]

Me too midnight. :)

[MidnightSun]

Lets make some our own :lol:

[scameter]

:P Doing it constantly. :)