Evolution?

[mctonale]

I was recently approched buy a jehovh's witness who denyed evolution.

As an agnostic scientist i found this laughable. :lol:

Does anyone want to try to convince me?

[Truthbearer]

Well the JW is correct .. 2 spiralling strands of DNA, isnt much to write home about. xx

But as a scientist, you must be aware of the efforts being put into cosmology .. and until the scientist recognizes spirit and soul, then they will never have the big picture, the whole picture, the correct picture.

The spirit that is in every molecule.. and this in human terms, is Love.

And NOW desires evolution .. 2 strands is far too limited, and actually is de-volution. And until we up our ante, we will not be able to quantify soul and spirit. It will come from a scientist with deep connections to their own Soul and Source .. and this may mean them denouncing all they have known and been (can a scientist denounce logic? hmmmm).
Evolution demands spirit and Soul, and cannot happen without them.
And that is why we DID de-volve, we lost touch with our Souls.
And then we lost touch with our dear Earth, as a communal teacher.
And our Nature Realms, who also hold deep spiritual wisdoms

'agnostic' .. do you mean denying religion/church/'god'
or do you mean .. denying the spirit within
(they are as different to me, as chalk and cheese).

g'day mctonale ..

am done
am gone

Pat xx

[mctonale]

And NOW desires evolution

Just as mankind has always desired a deity?

2 strands is far too limited,

er how many species living and extinct have/had those 2 strands?

'agnostic' .. do you mean denying religion/church/'god'* or do you mean .. denying the spirit within

I do not deny the possible existance of a god (i just reserve judgment).

As for spirit, soal, consciousness. they clearly exist but science can not prove or disporve this.

As for religion.
Religion has been responsible for as much hate, war and bad as love, piece and good.
whichever one you subscribe to the others will tell you you are going to hell.

And church.
Christian churchs are built on one group of peoples interpritation of a 2000 year old book. The book itself having been translated and therfore many of its meanigs lost (or possibly changed) in the translation.

[Thomas Knierim]

truthbearer: Well the JW is correct .. 2 spiralling strands of DNA, isnt much to write home about.

The JW is a nut. The DNA's function is to store and transcribe information. Since information is the basic entity of informatics it must be viewed from the angle of informatics. From the informatics perspective, it does not matter how information is stored, which means even more mundane forms storage, such as a string of 0s and 1s, are conceivable. However, organisms are physical entities and the double-helix is probably one of the most elegant physical/chemical information storage systems that can be imagined. Its physical beauty certainly rivals its function and logic. Those strands can handle incredible amounts of information and the transcription process is mind-blowingly precise, although not quite as precise as not to allow for mutation. Without this small degree of imprecision known as mutation, evolution would not exist and we would not exist.

truthbearer: Evolution demands spirit and Soul, and cannot happen without them.

What theory or observation supports this assertion?

truthbearer: And that is why we DID de-volve, we lost touch with our Souls. And then we lost touch with our dear Earth, as a communal teacher. And our Nature Realms, who also hold deep spiritual wisdoms

In the recent (industrialised) past, humanity had a fairly destructive impact on the environment. Thus it seems that we have lost spiritual contact with Earth. I agree with you about this point. However, this is not a sign of "devolution". It is -at best- one of the many evolutionary "accidents" of natural history. However, devolution does not exist in nature. Organisms only evolve, they never devolve. Like entropy accretion in thermodynamics, evolution is an irreversible process. Organisms may lose previously acquired features, but that is an adaptive response, an evolutionary step.

There are two possible scenarios: either the evolutionary "accident" aggravates and results in mass extinction, whereas the human race itself may be affected, i.e. the human species might eradicate itself, or -which is in my view realistic- the human race might learn to control large scale behavior and adapt for the mutual benefit of all humans and the Earth. Certainly this will be a painful process. All evolutionary processes are tremendously painful.

Cheers, Thomas

[Truthbearer]

I cant seem to put the quotes into a box ?? .. i copy/quote and paste, but this doesnt go into a box (helpx)

Thomas - It has been our separation from our Souls and Source, that allowed all non-love activity .. Non-love is non-evolutionary.
Life after life of non-love (karma) caused our de-volution.

There have been elongated skulls found all around the globe (some of the pharoahs had them (cone-heads/Sirian/humanoid) and some of them had elongated triangular skulls(similiar but not same), which were of reptilion lineage.
These elongated heads supported huge pineal glands , which also correlates with much more DNA than 2.. in fact 12 strands.. which no doubt, they also thought to be elegant and beautiful beyond compare..
(and as I was guided to clear many karmas, many were karmas affecting my pineal gland - the more strands we re-connect, the larger our pineal will grow (and occipital, and pituitary.. and even new glands we have never had before)

if you cant imagine more than 2 strands .. then you are limiting yourself.
If 2 strands holds all our function and logic .. then what would 12 strands afford?

Evolution is about Soul and love.
How do I know this?.
Because my pastlives have informed me that I was a seeded cone-head from Sirius, and therefore I had 12 strands of DNA.
I now have 2.
This is de-volution... no?
When humanity was first 'seeded' (as per Earthmother Akashic records) we were all totally harmless .. and the stewards of Earth.
Non-harmfullness was in our DNA.
It is not now.
2 strands denote 'function' as you say .. part of this 'function' is now harmfulness.
In fact, what would 6 strands hold?.. 9 strands? 12?.
This might equate to more information .. more understanding on a cosmic/Universal level.

You say 'evolutionary accidents' .. there are no accidents.
And how many evolutionary 'accidents' do you require to know a non-evolutionary circumstance?
Non-evolution is non-love.
Non-love is an absence of Soul.
An absense of Soul is non-evolution.
Soul will tell you that, Earth will tell you that, every Nature Kingdom that I have tuned into will tell you that.
Because they have been the 'victims' of humanities non-love.. as it fell.
The 'Fall of Man' was about de-volution.

We dont use logic to evolve - we use our hearts. xx

You say that an organism cannot de-volve .. this I cannot 'prove'.
But an organism with 2 strands of DNA HAS devolved - it does not hold love. When we do karmic completions, we are actually bringing love back to every molecule, and this will afford regeneration.
All our dysfunctions are because of non-love, non evolution.
And this is because of our karmas .. all karmas of non-love.
Divest oneself of all karmas, and we re-connect the DNA we once held.

Quantify 'unconditional love' .. and you will have the missing key/link.
Because every molecule must resonate with this vibration.

Absolute harmlessness and Unconditional Love is the Ascension goal.
And these are evolutionary attributes.

Namaste
Pat

[Truthbearer]

[QUOTE] Just as mankind has always desired a deity?


Hi mctonale .. ascension will happen no matter what people 'desire'.
This is Earths evolutionary cycle.. and she is on track.
We can tune in and understand, and have a part in her Ascension, or not.
Ascension is the most spiritually, and physically exciting event known to Earth, and the Nature Realms - it is humanity that hasnt quite 'got it' yet.

Mankind has always desired a diety, soul, spirit - it is our genetic inheritence to be spiritual - it is as we lost this spirit (and we surely did) Our karmas are a special dynamic, that disallows soul to anchor within us .. until we can vibrate to some degree of same resonance, we cannot hear soul, because soul cannot anchor amid our dense vibrations.
And over time, we have 'missed' this connection/communion, some lives we have felt 'abandonment' even.
This is why many people struggle with god/soul/diety .. because in their absense, many other non-physical beings called themselves 'god', made prats of themselves, and caused more mayhem to our spiritual lives.
(in many readings, I see a lot of clients 'anger'/hatreds.. are because of the deceptions of these beings).
And now many spiritual people, have given up.
Lost the plot.. and feel the emptiness because of it.
Because it is as Soul can anchor, we start to feel the true spiritual purpose and direction of our lives .. (we are MEANT to be Spiritual AND Physical.. true evolutionary companions)

xxx Pat

[Thomas Knierim]

Truthbearer: Thomas - It has been our separation from our Souls and Source, that allowed all non-love activity .. Non-love is non-evolutionary.

I think that the concepts of soul and source have little to do with the problems that humanity faces now. Humans and human behaviour did not change much in the last ten thousand years; however, the human population and its technology have changed dramatically. - This is causing problems. - The destruction of the environment, landscape degradation, the decimation and disappearance of species, and the plundering of the Earth's resources is caused by a single phenomenon: human civilisation. There are too many of us and we are using too many resources. This is not because of “non-love”, but because humanity has not learned how to control the large scale global effects of overpopulation and technology.

Truthbearer: There have been elongated skulls found all around the globe (some of the pharoahs had them (cone-heads/Sirian/humanoid) and some of them had elongated triangular skulls(similiar but not same), which were of reptilion lineage.

I am not sure what you are talking about here, but it sounds very fanciful. Does it have to do with Sitchin’s theories perhaps? I also remember another guy who carries around an abnormal skull and claims it is alien. Unfortunately I forgot his name.

Truthbearer: These elongated heads supported huge pineal glands , which also correlates with much more DNA than 2.. in fact 12 strands.. which no doubt, they also thought to be elegant and beautiful beyond compare.

The previous paragraph was fanciful, but this paragraph sounds fictitious. There is no such thing as 12-stranded DNA. All types of DNA on this planet, eukaryotic, prokaryotic, mitochondrial, extrachromosomal, etc. is double-stranded and is arranged in the famous double-helix pattern. There is one single exception to it, namely viruses, some of which carry their genetic material in a single DNA/RNA strand. However, these viruses are extremely primitive compared to any prokaryotic organism.

What concerns the pineal gland, it is difficult to imagine what advantage the organism could gain from a huge pineal gland. Since the pineal gland is –strictly speaking– not a part of the brain, but just a hormone gland enclosed by the diencephalons, it stands to reason that there is no cognitive advantage to be gained from a big pineal gland. Like many other structures in the same area of the brain, the pineal gland rather seems like an evolutionary relic (of vertebrates) that performs elementary functions.

Truthbearer: Because my pastlives have informed me that I was a seeded cone-head from Sirius, and therefore I had 12 strands of DNA. I now have 2. This is de-volution... no?

Okay, this is drifting completely off into the realm of fantasy. I will say nothing about cone heads from Sirius. But one thing is clear: there is no devolution. The notion of devolution doesn’t even make biological sense. An organism cannot devolve. It can only adapt and that is evolution.

Truthbearer: if you cant imagine more than 2 strands .. then you are limiting yourself. If 2 strands holds all our function and logic .. then what would 12 strands afford?

I tried to answer this question in the previous post. From the viewpoint of informatics, 12 strands of DNA afford nothing. Put another way, anything that can be encoded in 12 strands can be encoded in 2 strands, or even 1 strand. Mathematically, it does not matter which way information is encoded and stored. It matters to the physical system, however. There is a good reason why DNA has two strands and not just one. This reason is given by the replication process itself. There is also good reason why the molecule has a spiral form. It permits great information density and molecular stability. Inside the nucleus, the spiral itself is wound and folded multiple times, all for the reason of packing a maximum amount of information into a minimum amount of space.

When hypothesising 12-stranded DNA, the first question that arises is what the molecular structure would look like. Are the nucleotides the same? Is each strand paired with its complimentary base? In this case, the same information is just repeated 12 times, right? Or are there six different double-strands? Does it make sense at all?

Cheers, Thomas

[CSwriter1]

That was very impressive Thomas. How you come to know so much?

[Thomas Knierim]

Knowledge is cheap and easy to come by these days. I have my library at home, and an Internet connection. It's really there for everyone.

Anyway, I have always been very impressed with nature and that's why I have studied her. ;) It's a compulsive behavior.

Cheers, Thomas

[Truthbearer]

No Thomas .. you have studied science.

to have studied 'nature' .. then you would have to know about spirit and soul.
Because Spirit drives all Natures purpose.

There is a Dogon tribal elder, that has an elongated head that I talk of. These people live by their connection to spirit .. that is why they do not want anything to do with their white brothers - too harmful.

The Endocrine affords us our metaphysicality, part of our clairaudience and clairvision.. the bigger the pineal, the more secretions. . this enhances our abilities to heal ourselves.
I could go on and on about the pineal, the pituitary, the occipital - but most is probably not in science books - it is meta-physical knowledge.
And this is expanded by asking Soul.

Thomas, if we had our connection to Earth and Soul - there would be no mining, no Earth rape -no poisoning, no eating animals, abusing Nature.
'human civilization' is no exscuse for losing our connection.
It has been more than 'human civilization' (more like inhumane uncivilization) that caused us to become a harmful/greedy/fearful species.
Where we read dogmas and beliefs, science and logic like they were gods...
yeah i know what you're thinking ..
well what else is there to read?
nothing.
That is why there are so many people channelling today - for some truths.. we want to know more.. and more.
Stuff that isnt in history and science books.
Where we came from and why did we come here (there are no accidents).. and if we came to do anything, did we do it?
Why didnt we do it?



Evolution is expansion .. no? Do you see the last 10,000 years as an advanced species?.. then you are in some sort of illusion - because we are not.
Just because the last 100 years we have advanced technology - big deal.
Can we heal ourselves with just a thought?.. my god Thomas, the amount of disease/dysfunction and wars, and you say there is no de-volution??

Are we all so well-adjusted there is no crime?

Can we commune with the consciousness of our planet, and our Nature brother and sisters? - because we are so arrogant, we think our part is the be -all and end- all. It is not - the Nature Realms are our equals, and, in fact, are holding the spiritual gate open for us to wake up.
To what? - our deep spirituality - our cosmic connection to All That Is.

Could it be, if we were all telepathic there would be absolute unity? THIS is raising our consciousness .. nothing techno. about that.

Are we all so self-enpowered we dont 'need' to be needy, and fearful.

Harming self and planet continually - even with all our technological expertise.. and it will be technological expertise that will harm this planet again.. as it did 100,000 years ago, many of Earths deserts are the result of abuse of technology .. Lemuria.. Atlantis (not fantasies, but actual civilizations... that also had technology)
Sorry dude - I, for one, DE-volved.. and so did you. We all have.
One day they will discover there was more technology on this planet 100,000 years ago .. pistons and hydraulics that used bamboo, and many other amazing mechanics .. but not in science or history books.. by peoples meta-physical abilities.
And these people wont give a hoot in hell, who believes them either.


Technology and science expand the Laws of Science and Technology, and the logicol mind.. not the consciousness of All That Is, per se.
An expanded consciousness understands cosmology without reading one text book, can transcend physical plane laws..knows holographic information because we are living holographic truth.
THIS is evolution.
We might have to disagree about DE-volution .. but in all honesty.. I have seen what I once was (www.bradshaws.org)

(I cant be bothered talking about monkeys and apes .. someone sent me a joke the other day .. if we evolved from monkeys and apes, how come there are still monkeys and apes. I thought 'well thats a valid point'.)..

and more to the point .. how do we know that we have evolved from anything? because in my view, we havnt.



xxPat

[...]

..Pat, many cultures practiced binding the head right after birth to get a shape that was fashionable, and showed what caste one was a part of. The shape of the skull does not affect the brain, or at least, no evidence was found that it did. Suggesting that it did is a bit farfetched...

..about apes: we share a common ancestor with the apes and monkeys. We did not evolve from the species of monkeys and apes we know today, but we evolved together from that shared ancestor. Anyway, all those hours of watching nature channels sure paid off :P

[CSwriter1]

Thomas, I think you will really like this explanation of the origin of Korea http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/go-chosun.htm

If I understand it correctly, there were many human species, sort of like there a several dog species, and ice ages forced these many species into small areas, where they interbred. So the evolution of humans as we know humans is the result of major die off and shrinking the area where humans could survive. This makes complete sense to me. I think it is the best explanation of today's humans that I ever read.

[Thomas Knierim]

Pat: No Thomas .. you have studied science. To have studied 'nature' .. then you would have to know about spirit and soul.

There are many ways to relate to nature. Emotional, practical, intellectual, and spiritual. For example, you can take long walks at the ocean shore, camp in the forest, raise animals, engage in gardening, watch the night sky, study biology, and so on. I have related to nature in all these ways. Science -in particular- is the intellectual study of nature. Science cannot replace the practical and emotional aspects, but neither can the practical and emotional aspects replace the intellectual.

There is one special advantage that science has, however. It allows you to see nature not only with your own eyes, but with the eyes (and with the understanding) of thousands or even millions of people who lived before you who have accumulated the body of scientific knowledge.

Pat: The Endocrine affords us our metaphysicality, part of our clairaudience and clairvision.. the bigger the pineal, the more secretions.

The function of the pineal gland is melatonin production. Melatonin is a hormone that regulates our "body clock" and other basic body functions. The pineal gland is light sensitive and it may be an evolutionary predecessor of the eye. Since the function of the pineal gland was unknown for a long time (the function of all the other endocrine glands had been discovered before), there were many theories about the pineal gland, some of them quite imaginative. For example, Rene Descartes, the French philosopher, thought it was the seat of the soul.

I think that ascribing clairvision, clairaudience and similar capabilities to the pineal gland is complete nonsense. It simply extends the old myths. You can try it out and buy melatonin in the drugstore. Melatonin it is available as a dietary supplement, so you can -by self experiment- see if you acquire any clairvision from it.

Previously you also mentioned cone heads from Sirius, 12-stranded DNA, souls, earth spirits, and now you are adding Atlantis and bygone high civilisations. Well, unusual claims require unusual evidence.

Where is the evidence? It seems to me as if you were compiling a catalog of New Age absurdities and you do so apparently without questioning any of them. You have provided neither empirical evidence nor any theoretical support for these rather fanciful claims. "Look inside for the answers" just doesn't cut it. These are empirical claims you are making and they require empirical evidence. Pardon me for saying that I cannot take any of it seriously.

Pat: Evolution is expansion .. no? Do you see the last 10,000 years as an advanced species?

10,000 years are a blink of an eye in geological/evolutionary time. A species may remain virtually unchanged within that period, especially if withdrawn from selective and adaptive pressures. Obviously, humans have withdrawn from natural selection for a long time and this process -the withdrawal from external selection mechanisms- is ongoing and intensifying. We have started it with inventing plant cultivation, housing, tools, and smiliar survival enhancing measures. Then we have further disabled natural selection with medicine and we are now entering into a period of bio engineering that will completely uproot the evolutionary laws at work.

Pat: Harming self and planet continually - even with all our technological expertise.

I think you need to consider that harm might at this point be inevitable. Life on this planet always harms other life and feeds on other life. The biological reality out of which we -humans- have arisen is from a human perspective tremendously brutal and painful. Millions of death are required for the smallest evolutionary change. Intelligent complex life forms have formed through billions of billions of births and deaths. This process is painful beyond our imagination. But the human species is at the verge of emancipating itself from this crude mechanism. At this moment, we hurt the planet with our technology simply because we don't know any better. We have not acquired the skills not to hurt it yet. If the human species is to survive, we will have to learn to use technology without damaging our environment.

I am convinced that we have the potential to create a society that lives in harmony with the bio environment. I am convinced that we are able to be the stewards of the Earth. To achieve this potential, we will certainly need technology and science, lots of it. But we will also need increased spiritual understanding.

Cheers, Thomas

[Truthbearer]

i wondered where this thread went to :think:

Most of what you say is correct ..
even the (atrophied) pineal .. it is as we correct out karmas on our 7th chakra .. and karmas on our pineal (karmas that atrophied our pineal).. it has more potential than just secreting melotonin..
one also has to define 'light' ..
because this is what the pineal does .. a light transceiver , that defines 'light'... and probably sends it to our consciousmind as a vision/concept.
but its correlation to its chakra is also important .. because the chakras have interesting functions.
I could go on and on about chakra behaviour, different dysfunctional chakras causing different ways of understanding and being.
Interesting stuff.


There are a few underwater buildings, that are being exposed (Japan-South India) .. these were ancient civilizations.
Besides being under water .. we ask what went wrong.
Did they have technology ?(because there are no records from this period of time)..

But its like knowledge - just because we dont know, doesnt mean it didnt exist.

And whilst you say technology and science for the future
- I agree, but I think it will be different to what we are doing now.
My soul guidance tells me I will be telepathic in two years - if i will be so will many others.
And this will change many other concepts.

I know you disagree, but it is not science and technology that evolves a species .. it is Spirit and Soul.
Technology and science come along for the ride - they are useful, but not a requirement - they are just the outcomes of a creative intellectual mind.
What is required, is a mind that can express Spirit and Soul.

Namaste
Pat

[bito]

I cant seem to put the quotes into a box ?? .. i copy/quote and paste, but this doesnt go into a box (helpx)

To put quotes in a box, insert the copied and pasted material into the reponse box. Highlight this material, then click on the 'QUOTE' button in the Code Button box above.

xx

[Truthbearer]

The function of the pineal gland is melatonin production. Melatonin is a hormone that regulates our "body clock" and other basic body functions. The pineal gland

I have to wait and see if it worked..(the lil box thang)

Thomas (a) and we have to wait and see once we have reactivated our pineal to its former glory, so it CAN regulate .. and
(B) what the melatonin does after it leaves the pineal - because i just read a science 'essay'.. that it interacts with the secretions from two lower glands (thymus and opthalmus???) .. but this is just about the aging process - (why we age)..

thanks bito x IT WORKED!! XX

[Thomas Knierim]

truthbearer: I have to wait and see if it worked..(the lil box thang)

You actually tried melatonin?

Cheers, Thomas

[Truthbearer]

.. chuckle .. (sorry I meant the quote box thang)
nah .. i'm doing something better.
Karmas on my pineal, pituitary and occipital.
All the karmas that caused them to shut down.

I asked my Source once if I should give melatonin a go (I'm up for anything - once.)
- "No, not necessary what you are doing is more effective." (karma)

thank heavens, i believe melatonin is quite expensive.

xx