The Anglo-german Problem

[CSwriter1]

The following is from Charles Sarolea's 1915 book "The Anglo-German Problem".

"It is difficult to exagerate the political domination of Germany by Prussia. The practice before the theory; it is not as German Emperor, but as Prussian King that William the Second rules the confederation.....The German people are governed more completely from Berlin and Potsdam than the French were ever governed from Paris and Versailles. And they are governed with an iron hand. In theory, every part of the empire may have a proportional share in the administration of the country; in reality, Prussia has the ultimate political and financial control. Germany pays taxes; Prussia spends them. Germany provides soldiers; Prussia commands them. And the Prussian War Lord and his Junkers in the last resort decide the issues of peace and war". (I totally relate to what is being said. Only it is not rulers from another country, but the military/industrial complex from within, and of which Eisenhower warned us, that is in control. The New World Order is order, and this order is not the family order of the democracy we had. It is a military order. We could throw all our weapons in the ocean today, and we would still living under the controlling power that took over Germany. that is the military order of the New World Order). Back to "The Anglo-German Problem".

"But it is not merely the external and physical or racial, or even religious, differences between North and South, between East and West, which must arrest our attention. It is more relevant to the purpose of our argument to enphasize the effect of those differences on the national character, and to point out the absolute opposition between the Prussian temperment and the German temperment, the striking incompatibility of disposition between Berlin and Munich, between Konigsberg and Cologne.

The Southern and Western German is still to-day, as he was in the days of Madam de Stael, artistic and poetic, brilliant and imaginative: a lover of song and music. The Prussian remains as he has always been, inartistic and dull and unromantic. Prussia has not produced one of the great composers who are the pride of the German race; and Berlin, with all its wealth and its two million inhabitants, strikes the foreigner as one of the most commonplace capitals of the civilized world. The Southern and Western German is gay and genial, courteous and expansive; the Prussian is sullen, reserved, and aggressive. The Southern and Western German is sentimental and generous; the Prussian is sour and dour, and believes only in hard fact. The Southern and Western German is an idealist; the Prussian is a realist and materialist, a stern rationalist, who always keeps his eye on the main chance. The Southern and Western German is independent almost to the verge of anarchism; he has a strong individuality; his patriotism is muicipal and parochial; he is attached to his little city, to its peculiarities and local customs: the Prussian is imitative, docile, and disciplined; his patriotism is not the sentiamental love of the native city, but the abstract loyalty to the State. The Southern and Western German is proud of his romatic history, of his ancient culture; the Prussian has no culture to be proud of-politically he is an upstart. Prussia is a settlement, an army, and a bureaucracy rather than a nation; but the Prussian is unswervingly loyal to the commander of that army submissive to the chief of that bureacracy.

How shall we explain this startling paradox? How is it, and why is it, that the artistic and exuberant, genial and sentimental German submits to the hard rule of the commonplace, uninteresting, and dour Prussian?

If you ask ninety-nine out of a hundred Germans they give you a reply. They know too little of and care too little about politics to be even be aware of the fact. They are satisfied with appearences. They do not see the King of Prussia behind the German Kaiser. They are hypnotized by the glittering helmet of the War Lord. (our Christian right, the red states)

But if you succeed in discovering one in a hundred who understands the relation between Germany and Prussia, and who has thought out the political problem he will probably give you something like the following reply:

"I know that there is no love lost between the Germans and the Prussians. I know that in culture and native ability we are as superior in to the Prussians as our vine-clad hills are superior in beauty to the sandy wastes of Pomerania. And I know that in politics we play a subordinate part, although we are superior. But I also realize that it is necessary for us to submit. And it is necssary for us to submit, precisely because of our virtues. For those virtues of ours are unpractical.
(take note, those of you who are avoiding politics and talking about being nice- I grew up in the 1960's with the idea that love resolves all problems. This is not very realistic or practical) And it is neccessary for the Prussians to rule, precisely because of their short-comings. For those shortcomings are practical. The pure gold of the German temper could never be made into hard coin nor used to advantage. It could be made to produce splendid works of art, gems and diadems and ornaments, but for practical purposes, in order to forge the weapons of the Nibelungen, the alloy of the baser metal was indispensable. It requied the mixture of Prussian sand and Prussian iron to weld us into a nation, to raise us to an empire. It is because we Germans are artists and dreamers and individualists that we could never manage our own affairs, that we have always been 'non-political animals.' On the contrary, it is because the Prussian has no brilliance, no romance, no personality, that he makes a splendid soldier and a model bureaucrat. Two things above all were required to make Germany into a powerful state-a strong army and a well ordered administration. Prussia has given us both." end quote

[Thomas Knierim]

Interesting piece of history. Since the above writing dates back to the beginning of the first world war, I think it is not that relevant today, but if one contemplates that the German Empire and the Prussian Kingdom ended only 87 years ago, it is very amazing how rapidly and drastically Europe has changed in this comparatively short time. The Germany of 1915 would almost feel like another planet today.

In 2004 my grandfather celebrated his 96th birthday. He was born in the monarchy (or respectively in the Kaiserreich under Wilhelm II), he has seen two world wars, experienced the Nazi Germany under Hitler, the post war reconstruction era, the federal democracy, the DDR, and finally the reunification. A tremendous historical program for a single lifetime, don't you think?

WWI was the great supplanter in Europe. It got rid of almost all traditional hegemonies, some of which had been installed in Europe since medieval times, such as the Habsburgers, the Hohenzollerns, the Ottomans, and -last but not least- the Prussian Kingdom. Historically, WWI was the demarcation line of modernity.

There was certainly a more pronounced "Prussian feel" to the Kaiserreich than to present day Germany. The Prussian values are somewhat comparable to the classical Spartan values; in fact the Prussian armies were once modeled after Spartan ideals. These ideals include militarism, autocratic government, law and order, correctness, punctuality, and smiliar virtues, most of which have gone out of fashion meanwhile. It is probably true that these Prussian ideals have left their mark on the entire German nation during the Empire (1871-1918), since Prussia was the largest and most influential state. It may be presumed that they influenced the national political climate in the Dritte Reich era and supported the rise of the Hitler regime.

Yet, I am not sure whether to agree with the author of the above writing when he says: ...the Prussian has no brilliance, no romance, no personality, that he makes a splendid soldier and a model bureaucrat. It sounds overly stereotypical. After all, Immanuel Kant and Nietzsche and were both Prussian, two brilliant thinkers. Today half of Prussia belongs to Poland and Russia, and while Berlin was once in the geographical center of the Empire, it is now geographically off-center. On this account, I would have preferred a Rhenish capital for Germany, though I grant this is partly due to homeland bias.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

ok Thomas, this a nosy question: you say your Grandpa lived thru the DDR- that's East German, right? But you would prefer a Rhenish (West German) capital due to homeland bias. So which are you, East German or West German? Or maybe I should say which were you, since Germany is now one again.

[Thomas Knierim]

sonrisa: So which are you, East German or West German?

West German. My family is from Wuppertal, which is located near Cologne and Düsseldorf. So I grew up in the "capitalist" part of Germany with Coca Cola, color TV, Lego, and all that stuff... :lol:

Thomas

[sonrisa]

you go Thomas :thumbsup:


Originally posted by Thomas

Yet, I am not sure whether to agree with the author of the above writing when he says: ...the Prussian has no brilliance, no romance, no personality, that he makes a splendid soldier and a model bureaucrat. It sounds overly stereotypical. After all, Immanuel Kant and Nietzsche and were both Prussian, two brilliant thinkers.

Thomas, that book was written during WWI, when I'm ashamed to say, people over here did not treat Germans very nicely, to put it mildly. It got so bad in some places (my Gramma once said she remembered that a German family was tarred & feathered) that people of German extraction changed their names. I'm guessing the book reflects the anti-German bias of those war years.

The really sad part of all this didn't happen until some 25-30 years later during WWII. The Germans had been demonized during WWI & the stories turned out to be just that- stories. So when people heard stories about Hitler's atrocities, they were less inclined to believe them, & didn't see the need to extend help to refugees. Until, of course, our troops liberated the camps. Then people were shocked that those stories turned out to be true.

[Thomas Knierim]

Sonrisa: I'm guessing the book reflects the anti-German bias of those war years.

Is that the reason why Americans call the German Shepherd dog "Alsatian"?

http://www.kateconnick.com/postcards/gsdpool0304.jpg

Woof.

Thomas

[sonrisa]

we do? I've always called them German Shepherds! I thought an Alsatian hound was another name for a St Bernard. Or are you just funning me? But it's true that German things were renamed during WW1, my fave- sour kraut was renamed liberty cabbage! Sort of like a couple years back when some so-called patriotic fools were calling French fries freedom fries. Jeez! Nice pup, btw, is s/he yours? Is that your pool? Can I come over? For theraputical reasons, of course. I broke my ankle back in Feb & now am going to the pool 3x/week for therapy. I'm gonna tell Asheera you're posting pictures! Woof, woof!

ps my great-grandparents were Alsatians. You were kind enough to tell me something about your background, I'll tell you a litle bit about mine. :)

[CSwriter1]

Please, show me what line the quote I gave you demonizes the Germans. As I read the quote, it praises the Germans as intelligent and friendly people who should stop discrediting themselves and get rid of the Prussians.

[CSwriter1]

I too think Charles Sarolea's statement about the Prussians was a bit sweeping, but in another book published in 1916, "Poverty and Riches" Scott Nearing, Ph.D. compares our industry with Prussia, and the picture is not pretty. It is not just Germany the Prussians influenced, but the western world. Without education for democracy, this influence has become greater than the philosophy behind our liberty and personal power. Our whole nation is being organized by the Prussian factor and because we know virtually nothing of this, what happened in Germany is happening here. That is why I am writing and quoting.

Charles Sarolea never stepped foot in the United States, and his book was rejected until after the second world began. He wrote warning what the Prussian influence was doing to Germany, explaining such things as the importance of control of Baghdad, that we should know. Please, I am bringing information from the past that is urgently needed in the present.

This is about how people are organized, and the importance of controlling areas of the world. Note the economic organization of the New World Order blends industry and military capabilities in ways that unknown in the US until WWII. It involves government control of industry and education. I am stressing we have replaced our liberal education with Germany's education for technology, which was the result of the Prussians turning Germany into a military machine. The social ramifications are huge!

We understand the reasoning of women's liberation, but not the family order of democracy. We could throw all our weapons in the ocean, and we would still be organized by military order, because we have so destroyed our family order. Note, this evil was in our country by 1917. It was in our industries, first modeled after England's autocracy, and secondly made more efficient by Prussian organization, which is dehumanizing and reduces people to the extention of machines.

[sonrisa]

Thomas, I was looking up something in the dictionary & I came across the word Alsatian. They are German Shepherds! I didn't know that. While I'm thinking of it, please tell me what anschaulich means. Thanx

CS, your quote doesn't demonize Germans. Thomas was objecting to a sentence in the book passage as being stereotypical. I guessed, since the book was written during WWI, that perhaps the book reflected the anti-German bias that was prevalent during those war years. The book may not have demonized Germans, but there were stories floating around on the street back then that did, & those are what I was referring to when I said the Germans had been demonized during WWI. There were also posters. I remember one in particular that was in my history book. It showed a German war nurse, drawn to look like a b*tch outta hell, pouring a glass of water onto the floor in front of one of our POW's, who, the poster said, was dying of thirst. The nurse had a nasty grin on her face. But it was just a stupid war poster which, like the other war posters & stories, turned out to be untrue. But no, your quote doesn't demonize Germans.

[CSwriter1]

No Sonrisa, it was not just a stupid war poster. Now this gets really difficult, because I also seen war propaganda as shockingly unacceptable. Let us label this as unacceptable racism, because it covers many social situations, not just wars. On the other hand, war is a form of insanity that can bring out the worst in people. The horrors of concentration camps were tolerated by many, and denying this is not healthy. I am going into this very dangerous subject, because I believe the US is suffering this insanity, and my whole point is that I believe this is the result of education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and dropping liberal education which advanced civiliation.

Right now our popular media is like the evolution of Roman entertainment. Without the special effects of Hollywood, the Romans waged miniture wars for popular entertainment and literally killed hundreds of people. This was very popular, as are our movies of extreme human abusive and video games of violence and killing. Christians were the unwanted censors of Roman entertainment. When a society finds such entertainment acceptable, it is ripe for war and the acts committed by Germany in the second world war.

The sexual abuse of Iraqis was committed by people who thought this behavior as acceptable, and could even improve their social position, as long as social judgement was called upon their actions. They did not come to this alone. Our whole society has become disrespectful of every human right. Not only have we become excessively disrespectful of social rules and people in general, but it is the person who says there should be rules, and that these rules should be enforced, who is the person everyone jumps on, not the abusive people, who are actually encouraged by others engagin in this behavior. Hey, shit face what do have to say, ha, ha, ha. Is acceptable, but saying, I don't want this abuse is what people are finding fault with.

I think we should take a careful look at the forces that built up in Germany and are building up in our country today. That is why I am being the past into the present.

[sonrisa]

well on one level it was stupid & it fed the people's stupidity, but otoh you are totally correct. I wanted to cut to the chase & wind up my post, I didn't want to get into the ramifications of those stories & posters, which was the harsh terms of the Versailles Treaty, which (partly) produced the economic/political instability in 1920's Germany that Thomas mentioned, which resulted in Hitler & WWII & the horrors you mention.

I agree with you that we are on the same slippery slope that Germany was on some 70 years ago. Your comment about Christians being the unwanted censors of the Roman Empire is sort of ironic- today Christians are the problem, pushing us down that slippery slope & into the abyss. I read 2 things by Wm Rivers Pitt earlier today that say what you're saying here. Perhaps you'd want to read them too-

click here (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051105A.shtml)

& here (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/050905X.shtml)

too much delusion, too little guts.... or maybe it's just a lack of conscience

[Thomas Knierim]

sonrisa: my fave- sour kraut was renamed liberty cabbage!

After the liberty statue? Hilarious! :lol:

sonrisa: Nice pup, btw, is s/he yours?

No, but he looks a lot like our "Lucky" (RIP).

sonrisa: Is that your pool? Can I come over?

Not my pool. But we have a pool of about the same size. So, please to drop by anytime. It's only a few thousand miles.

sonrisa: I'm gonna tell Asheera you're posting pictures! Woof, woof!

That's okay. I don't mind posting pictures as long as they are, ....err...., pertinent. You see, German shepherd dogs are practically pertinent by default.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

sonrisa: my fave- sour kraut was renamed liberty cabbage!

Thomas--After the liberty statue? Hilarious! :lol:

--got me! I don't have the first clue as to what goes on in whatever passes for the minds of people who eat liberty cabbage & freedom fries :blink:


sonrisa: Nice pup, btw, is s/he yours?

Thomas--No, but he looks a lot like our "Lucky" (RIP)

--My condolences re: Lucky.



Thomas--Not my pool. But we have a pool of about the same size. So, please to drop by anytime. It's only a few thousand miles.

-- I'll be right over!


Thomas-- You see, German shepherd dogs are practically pertinent by default.

-- all dogs are pertinent by default!

[CSwriter1]

Oh yes, yes, Christianity is a Roman religion, and Germans adopted Roman technology but not its culture, and when Christianity separate from all the culture of the ancient world, got mixed with the German mind set the wise king of old, became an autocratic king, totally changing the understanding of God. Yes, can we talk New World Order now? It is not separate from Roman and Christianity.

You both are helping create a better way of discussing this subject that doesn't run into the blocks of assumptions about what I am saying. I have learned, I must never speak of Germany without clarifying I am speaking of the Prussian influence on Germans, and the bureaucratic/military order that is the New World Order, only we didn't know it as such, until used that phrase. It actually predates the first world war and was the purpose of German education after the Prussians took control of Germany and distroyed German heros and we have done to education in the US and US heros.

Golly I am sweating blood trying to figure out the wording that gets my point my across. It involves Roman empirialism, and Christianity. This is why Bush and the Christian right are so frightening and why I must get my book out there. But what I am saying can be so offensive, people don't get what I am saying, but stop at feeling offended. What a mess. I would consider selling my soul to the devil if I could change our consciousness about the New World Order and superstitious religion verses reason and democracy. Jesus, sacfricing his life for us, is not a big deal to me. Which one of us would not give his/her life for the good of all?

[Thomas Knierim]

CSW: I have learned, I must never speak of Germany without clarifying I am speaking of the Prussian influence on Germans...

Try that in Germany. :lol: The Germans would either think you are somehow stuck in the 19th century or that you are Bavarian. - It's a bit like referring to the American nation in terms of Northern and Southern Staates, or worse, British dependencies.

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

Thomas. There is most definitely a South- & Southerners, & Southern stuff, & Southern culture. Some of it, to be sure, is still stuck in the 19th century, but the rest of it has been dragged (kickin & screamin, mahnd yew!) into the 21st century. C'mon oh-vah & see foe yo-self, & stay as long as y'all want! (Southern hospitality! :) ) Hope you can read that last sentence- there's a Southern language too. Only place in the world where the computers spell check for words like y'all, yonder, dang, & reckon!! :D

s'all part of Southern Living! (click here) (http://www.southernliving.com/southern)

[CSwriter1]

Thomas, am I being offense to you? Do you think in general Germans would find what I am saying offensive? If this is the case, I am not quite sure what I can do about it. I hold a belief that Europeans and the British are more informed and politically knowledgeable than Americans. This makes adopting German/Prussian bureaucratic technology and education, even more dangerous in the US. Like a gun in the hands of someone trained to use it, is relatively safe, compare to a gun in the hands of a child who knows very little about guns and what they can do.

The United States is paranoid schizoid right now, and like an individual can be treated with analysis so can a nation. I don't know what Germany is like today. I just know the US is a dangerous nation in the world today. It appears the pressure of the rest of the world is making Bush less aggressive, and I am relieved, but we have a nation who voted this man into office twice, and I have heard some Europeans are alarmed by this.

Bush is proud to rule the New World Order and the New World Order does have an order. That is not the order of the United States before the second world war. The state took my grandchildren and I learned more about tyranny than I knew there was to learn.
Everyone wants to think what the state did was justified. Well, the first time the state refused to give me custody and the second time the state took my grandchildren, they gave me custody. Clearly one of these times the state made a serious err. Since being in my custody they are doing very well.

My point is, government in the middle of our families as it is today, is not a good thing. If everyone experienced what my family has experienced, they would be looking to our forefathers and asking what they had in mind when they created a democracy with a very limited and weak government. We have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but who ever thought families would have to have fight the state for their children?

I may err in looking for an explanation of this, but I don't think my errs can be worse that making no effort.

[Thomas Knierim]

sonrisa: C'mon oh-vah & see foe yo-self, & stay as long as y'all want!

I've always had a soft spot for that southern drawl. It sounds so ... rural!

CSW: Thomas, am I being offense to you? Do you think in general Germans would find what I am saying offensive?

You are not offensive at all. On the contrary, you are very welcome. It's just that the Prussian thing is so anachronistic. Only the Bavarians still use the word "Prussia" when they refer to the rest of Germany. :lol:

On the other hand, you still find those Prussian values to be in high esteem here and there in Germany. But these are exceptions; overall it has gone out of fashion.

Most foreigners perceive the Germans as a little "square headish". They appear serious, even harsh, and they are not given to overt emotional displays. After having lived abroad for twelve years, they certainly appear to me that way when I go back to Germany. So there seems to this Prussion "halo" around Germans.

This appearance is, however, very shallow. At the heart, most Germans are quite sentimental, heck, even politics in Germany is mindblowingly sentimental. I recently learned that a German town rejected the application to build a large plant, because its operation would endanger the breeding grounds of some kind of bird. - Birds are considered more important than jobs. - That's how sentimental they are.

Principally, I consider this a good thing. Nobody in Thailand would give a damn about birds. In Thailand, they would just fry them and eat them and build the plant anyway. Apart from a very small minority, Thai people either don't know or don't care about the environment. The powerless are too ignorant and the powerful are too greedy.

But the Germans know what they are doing. They love to know what they are doing. If they don't know what they do they are not happy. They strive for a 100% level of control. Everything needs to be planned before they get started with anything. Engineering is practically a part of the German mentality; it's the striving for perfection, it comes natural. That's why German machinery is so good.

But don't ask any German to change plans. Changing plans makes Germans unhappy. :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by Thomas Knierim@May 13 2005, 08:44 AM
sonrisa: C'mon oh-vah & see foe yo-self, & stay as long as y'all want!

I've always had a soft spot for that southern drawl.

-- hunnychile, there's lots more to it then just a drawl....

CS, I realize you've done research on this German/Prussian thing, but keeping the South in mind, has it occurred to you that our current problems that you've been talking about might be homegrown? Sometimes I think that the very worst of the South (the 19th century part) has spread thru out the rest of the country. Admittedly, I have done no research on this, I speak as somebody who has grown up & is living in a Southern city & is familiar with the Southern good, bad, & downright ugly. Morever, Cincinnati is located in a northern state- the contrasts between us & the rest of the state are glaringly obvious. At any rate, when Warren Buffet recently said that we (the nation as a whole) are becoming a nation of sharecroppers, I thought, oh yeaaaahh! He confirmed my suspicions. So what do you think?

[CSwriter1]

This discussion is getting so complex, I think my brain is ready to shut down. It saddens me greatly to read the Thai people are not environmentally concerned.
But neither does the Bush administration appear to be environmentally concerned.

As for the consciousness of the US southern states, I am not knowledgible of the south, but don't think I want to live there either. I think the south is probably charming but lacking in important democratic values. Right now, I am feeling very lucky to live in Oregon. Oregon has its ignorant red necks and serious growing problems, and a strong German influence in government that I don't like. However, being a western state, I think it is better than many other states.

Grounding- the Anglo-German Problem is Prussian aggressiveness and organizing all Prussia could control into a military/industrial might. How did this differ from British imperialism? The difference is cultural and social organization was very different. Britian did not make citizens a part of the military/industrial complex. Not until 1958 were steps taken in the US to organize citizens into a military/industrial complex and the citizens don't have a clue, as neither did the Germans. Remember the one German who did have some understanding, said it was necessary because what made Germans good, also made them unfit for managing their own government. We are happy as long as we can endulge our every want, and we gladly give government to those who promise us what we want. We have given the control of government to those elected and now we are free, free, free to do as we please. Or so we think as we are loosing control of our lives.

Eisenhower warned us of the military/industrial complex that got a firm grip on the positions of power and resources, during the second war world years, and was never dismantled, as was done following the first world war. Please, I am speaking of a power elite, or a power structure, of which the average citizen seems complete naive. That is, as the Germans, the common citizens is politically naive, and easily malnipulated. Given the intent of the New World Order, which is control of global resources and economics, the citizens have been enslaved to the New World Order agenda and don't realize the fact. The wealth of US is being drawn from social services and culutre, and poured into military spending, much as happened near the end of the Roman Empire. This is all connected. Now Christians with no knowledge of international and economic reality, and virtually no political knowledge, are like the pre war Germans, sure we are on the side of God and our president is doing the will of God, and even if anything is wrong, God will fix it. Besides the wrongs are not those in control, and what we doing around the world, or the decisions we made about the finite rsource of oil, or how we changed public education bringing us to an ammoral society far from the morality of the democracy we had, but the devil, and God will take care of the devil in His time.

I am reminded of Genghis Khan here. He thought the idea that there is a loving God who takes care of humans was the most ridiculus idea he ever heard, and he loved taking advantage of this Christian believe and the mongols did as they pleased. The Christians were powerless to stop them, and even thought God had sent the mongols to punish them for their sins, making Genhis Khan's will the will of God! Get a clue- those who plan to dominate the world, will dominate those who reading the bible and thinking about God and angles, and saving the world from "non Christians". The New World Order isn't a united Christian American idea, because the masses don't have a clue what is happening. Yet they have all been prepared for this. They have been educated to be products for this. The memory of what our democracy is all about, is gone.

We are not defending democracy, but a Christian notion that our president is doing the will of God, and we are so superior, (as Germans belived they were), that it is God's will we rule the world. They don't make the connection with the No Child Left Behind Act that requires schools to give children's names and addresses to military recruiters, and mandates with banks and medical personnel to keep tract of our current addresses, and Social Security numbers that make it possible to inventory human resources necessary for war, and efforts to have everyone carry ID cards, and control of airports which would prevent people from leaving their cities if they want to flee constription. What Germany did during WWII was not the will of the people, but the New World Order organization over their lives, prevented them doing anything to stop it. This really has nothing to do with the charms of the south, or the spirit of the west. It is about surrendering to the New World Order which can control in our lives in ways we don't want to be controlled, and how this is a threat to the whole world.