The Virtues Of Pain

[jesupocaplypse]

Those of you who have read Robert A. Heinlan's book, "Starship Troopers ", will likely recognize some of this...

This mostly just applies to the USA...

These days, crime and violence seem to run rampant, and jails are packed too tightly. And the number of repeat offenders is ridiculus.

Clearly the system is fundamentally flawed.

It's also clear that most criminals, especially the repeat offenders, live below the poverty line, and often in quite squalid and rough conditions. For them, Jail is not a detterent, but a welcome change... 2 years less a day weight training program....

The Hope is that these ne'er-do-wells are being segregated from society, where they can't do harm to the rest of us, and they will rehabilitate. Whoever thinks this is even remotely true, has obviously never been to jail for a decent amount of time. Except in minor situations, Jail generally just gives them time to brood, learn more from other criminals, and perfect their 'trade'.

I shall make the analogy with raising a puppy:

How do you housebreak a puppy? He pees on the floor... you give him a light smack, not enough to cause any real harm, but enough to let him know that what he just did resulted in pain, and was therefore wrong... rub his nose in it, and show him the place where he should be peeing.
He does it again, which he often will, and you do the same thing, with a slightly harder smack. From all my experience (not personally but watching friends and family raise puppies) this method, rarely needs to go beyond a third or fourth smack. The puppy learns.

Now compare this to our current legal system: A person does something criminal: instead of being punished, with Nature's Teacher, Pain; and rubbing his nose in what he has done; we lock him up with other's who have done comparable things, he stays there for a while surrounded by people who are just as bad if not worse, and then he is released back into society. Often he goes right back to doing what he did before, sometimes better at it, sometimes doing something even worse. We lock him up again. Same thing, a third time, we lock him 'for good' or we just execute him.

If we compare this with the Puppy: little Fido, pees on the floor, instead of doing anything else, we pick him up and lock him in a room, with other puppies who peed on the floor. Leave him in there for a little while, and then take him out again. He pees on the floor again, we lock him up with those other puppies for a longer time. He comes out, now practically an adult, having spent no time growing up properly, except in the company of other floor peeing puppies, he pees on the rug a third time... we take him out back and shoot him.

How does this make any rational sense whatsoever? It's just plain stupid.

If instead of wasting Millions of tax payer dollers on prisons; we actually Punished criminals for their crimes, they will likely learn their lesson the first time and not do it again.

Public Flogging No one has to go and watch if they don't want to, But being tied up and lashed an appropriate amount for the crime commited will TEACH HIM! Plus, a public flogging is a FAR better deterrent than jail time for even the most hard off person.

Not only should the perpetrator be flogged, but his Parents should be flogged as well, right in front of him. They are the one's who failed to teach their kid what's right and wrong in the society they live in, Plus: The would be criminal is going to be even less likely to break the law if he knows that not only is he going to feel the consequences, but his Mother and Father will too.

In the unlikely event of a repeat offender, Up the Dosage, Double or even triple the lashes. Then, if that rare monster comes along who still goes on to hurt people despite the floggings; after the 3rd time, execute the bastard. Because only a violent criminally insane, and dangerous being is going to keep at it after a flogging; and they have no purpose in this society other than to provide cheap feed for lions and tigers in the zoo.

Believe me, 10 or 20 lashes for you and 5 or 10 for your mom and dad, and you are NOT going to Break the Law except in the most extreme circumstances.

There is nothing cruel and unusal about this. Pain is the way Every creature on the planet learns it's lessons (those that parent does not or fails to teach)

People would be able to walk through central park at night, and feel perfectly safe. In this age of DNA evidence and highly advanced forensics, Falsely charged or imprisoned people, is becoming quickly nonexistant as well.

The only 'downside' is that The News and Media, those fearmongering lowlifes, would have a lot less to scare us with... but then there will always be War...


On that note: I also fully agree with Heinlan's theory, That No one should be allowed to vote or run for important government positions, without first serving a minimum of 2 years in the Military.

If you don't care enough about your country to risk your life to defend it, then why the hell should you deserve a say in how it's run? You don't need to be a front liner in the infantry or anything, you could serve in whatever position is appropriate for your mental and physical capabilities... plus you could learn some great life skills, as well as a sense of Honor and Self Discipline, that most of north america SORELY lacks. Not to mention, people will learn healthier lifestyles; another seriously lacking trait of the average North American.

Yessiree, Just think how life would be different, if all those stuffed suits making decisions for you, actually had to put their lives on the line to get to where they are... they might actually care about more than just themselves... We might have actual adults in charge, and not just wrinkly old Children.

[sahyo]

We might have actual adults in charge

yikessssssssss

hehe

[Thomas Knierim]

How do you housebreak a puppy? He pees on the floor... you give him a light smack...

While I keep my mouth shut :silent: about the idiosyncrasies of the US legal system, it seems that your analysis is flawed on account of the puppy learning comparison you made. Could it be that you don't have puppies/dogs? Otherwise you would know that negative feedback does not work very well with them. They simply don't respond to it that much, except that they start to distrust you, which is not a good disposition if you want to make any progress with a dog. To get a puppy housebroken, it is far more efficient to use positive feedback that supports the desired behavior, i.e. petting and playing if the puppy does it right, instead of hitting the dog that does it wrong. This does reflect the dilemma of the penal system to some degree. Inciting positive (lawful) behavior is generally more effective than punishing negative (unlawful) behavior. Perhaps some aspects of psychology don't differ much between species. :unsure:

Cheers, Thomas

[jesupocaplypse]

Hmm, your right Thomas, I failed to mention that part, but positive reinforcement, afterwards, therapy and encouragement are just as important, or yes, people will be miserable and resentful..

The puppy example, is based on observational research after reading a certain chapter inthe mentioned book. The puppy raisers, did provide plenty of love and encouragement to show the right way, but a little pain is still needed to teach that there is a wrong way. It's a healthy balance that's always key, but unless you want a neutral feeling dog, and neutral feeling people, you still need to lean heavier on the love side.

But I would still feel far far better if [say someone broke into my house and robbed me, he gets caught] and I or a trained professional got to give him and his dad 15 lashes and then send them on their merry way, along with free counselling, and help finding him a job or what not, instead of just cooping him up in an expensive jail to brood for a while.

[jesupocaplypse]

Originally posted by Thomas Knierim@Mar 14 2005, 04:33 AM
Perhaps some aspects of psychology don't differ much between species. :unsure:
I would say Many. <_<

[Ronagon]

jes,

I liked your essay... You covered the "pain" half of learning quite well... However, I am also very much glad that Thomas came right back and emphasized the pleasure half of the learning equation, because learning only truly happens when one has a source of personal pleasure to march towards, and some state of pain to march away from.

Otherwise, you create in the subject a constant state of stress and fear, because they do not know what they are being marched towards... in their minds, they are being marched towards some frightening unknown. And the prospect of the unknown is very often much more scary and aversive than even the promise of pain.

I once heard a story which illustrates this perfectly:

A condemned killer was brought before the king of the land who was waiting for him in a special room. The king said, "For your sentence, you have been brought to this special room. As you can see, there is on one side of this room, a chair with a hangman's noose hanging from the ceiling above it. On the other side of the room is an iron door that leads to a secret place. If you pick the noose, you die by the noose. If you pick the door, you must pass through that door, and it will be locked behind you. Now pick one."

The man looks at the door in horror, and picks the noose.

A few moments later, while standing on the chair, with his hands tied behind his back and the noose around his neck, he replies to the king:

"Well, sire, considering that I'm going to die now and am not likely to give away your secret after I'm executed, the suspense is killing me... What is behind the secret door?"

To which the king replies, "Freedom. But you'd be surprised at how many people would rather die than face the unknown."

This explains how the unknown is so often scarier than pain, especially within the context of pain as an option.

[jesupocaplypse]

I like that. Your quite right. Pain teaches you what to avoid and steer away from, pleasure teaches you what to aim and strive for.

[sahyo]

Pain teaches you what to avoid and steer away from, pleasure teaches you what to aim and strive for.



like people fearing love as though painful try avoiding loving, and some pleasure eating so eat 'til illing body?

[sahyo]

cannot pastfuture jes

[jesupocaplypse]

did I pastfuture? :duh: :think:

If you point out an error... please also include the 'correction' if you know it, To know wrong, one must know right. Right?



<_<


People fearing love from pain, because of lack of love taught with pleasure.

I'd pleasure the world if I could. :P

[sahyo]

wasn't right or wong
....just cannot pastfuture :)

"lack of love taught with pleasure"?,
or seeking pleasure trying to escape suffering?


I'd pleasure the world if I could. :P


hehe

:P

[bito]

Pain teaches you what to avoid and steer away from, pleasure teaches you what to aim and strive for.

roller coasting

when seeing 'who/what' seeming to choose directing of 'up' and 'down' coasting...

?

[Thomas Knierim]

jesupocaplypse: The puppy raisers, did provide plenty of love and encouragement to show the right way, but a little pain is still needed to teach that there is a wrong way.

Occasionally, yes. My wife and I have 14 dogs. Only one out of ten puppies has persistent problems with obedience. The worst case in this regard was a female stray dog named Snowy, which we adopted at the age of 6 weeks, when its mother almost died in an accident. Stray dogs, especially Thai stray dogs, are pretty "wild" in the sense of being independent and disobedient. These dogs are so hard to train that I usually don't bother with obedience training. After all, it is much more rewarding to work with a German Shepherd. Anyway, Snowy was/is fairly nervous and aggressive, so she started to become a problem. When she was moody, sometimes she snapped after people and occasionally bit them. While she was still very young, I began to smack her whenever she did that. In addition, I grabbed her snout and "nailed" her on the floor and kept her locked for a few minutes with my body weight. Apparently this therapy worked. Snowy is still a troublemaker and always tries to dominante other dogs, but at least she respects humans now. I would not recommend this as a universal strategy, however. Sometimes dogs bite because they are afraid, and in this case hitting the dog makes it even worse. On the other hand, if the dog becomes brazen and jumps on the kitchen table or on the bed, a well-placed slap might work fine.

jesupocaplypse: But I would still feel far far better if [say someone broke into my house and robbed me, he gets caught] and I or a trained professional got to give him and his dad 15 lashes and then send them on their merry way, along with free counselling, and help finding him a job or what not, instead of just cooping him up in an expensive jail to brood for a while.

You are probably right in case of a delinquent youth or an occasional offender. Perhaps this sort of thing works better. For a first time offender the whole experience of being caught by the police, having to face the legal system and its consequences, may cause enough anguish to serve as punishment. Real problems start only when criminal behavior becomes entrenched. The offender becomes hard-nosed and probably grows insensitive to punishment. Other ways of corrective action must then be considered. Unfortunately, the legal system rarely ever does that, partly because it is difficult and expensive, and partly because it requires a new way of thinking.

Ronagon: "Well, sire, considering that I'm going to die now and am not likely to give away your secret after I'm executed, the suspense is killing me... What is behind the secret door?" To which the king replies, "Freedom. But you'd be surprised at how many people would rather die than face the unknown."

A very interesting story indeed. I suppose it is fictional, but I have no doubt it could have happened, although we should see that it takes a fairly irrational person to choose death over the unknown. I reckon the prisoner's decision was influenced by the anticipation of terrible torture. I wonder how he would have decided, if the door was a wrought-iron gate with little angels and flowers. :think:

Cheers, Thomas

[NeverMind]

I have noticed that most puppies respond much better to a combination of positive reinforcement and consequences for wrongdoings. My little Lola doesn't poo inside anymore.
It seems most people are the same. Due to the greedy nature of humanity, a system of rewards would work much better to motivate peoples' good nature.
A system of punishment only works when the criminals are caught doing something wrong.
I, for instance, have broken the Washington State driving laws on several occasions, yet I have not been caught and, therefore, not punished. FEAR is what is keeping people (most people) in order.
FEAR of punishment. FEAR of being caught. If people were rewarded for good deeds instead of punished for bad, greedy people would try more to be good.
This would work if there were MUCH fewer people on earth.
As is, corrective punishment and FEAR are better than our reality of imprisonment and FEAR.
Being in prison, i imagine, would make me just really ANGRY.

[jesupocaplypse]

i laugh a sad laugh of sicky, when i think about our 'justice' system.

I am only familiar with the american system through the media, but i'm quite familiar with the canadian system, and while (like all things ;) ) it's better... they're both quite similiar...

the point is that, for Many jail is better than the alternative. hardly a deterrent. Also, how is locking up a criminal, in the company of many other criminals, going to change the criminals behavior? Would locking up a homosexual with other homosexuals make him heterosexual? [side note, just an example, I, in no way, think they need to be locked up]

Here in Canada, prisoners, get free room and board, free education (albeit basic education.. i think), access to the internet, tv, books, various workshops where they can Woodwork, sew, do arts and crafts, etc at their leisure, and any work programs they do; like the chain of orange clad men cleaning ditches, or breaking rocks, etc... they get PAID to do.

"funny" story: A cousin of mine told me about a friend of his, who watched a documentary on TV, about our correctional system; and being in a rather rough and miserable state of existance, promptly went out and robbed a liquor store, and a gas station/conveniance store, smiling at the cameras, and then sat down at home and proceeded to get drunk while eating ice cream for the next 2 days, until the cops showed up, and then he went happily away with them, and has been enjoying his improved life in the resort he now resides in, writing weekly letters to his friends, telling of all the fun things he gets to do now.

I don't know if it's a true story or just a tale my cousin made up, he seemed quite serious about it though.

It's stupid that's what it is. Just plain stupid.

Now add daily floggings, or even just weekly floggings, and then people in any position in life, would fear the consequences of crime.

[NeverMind]

But the majority of people in the United States have it significantly better than they would in prison. Henceforth the majority of the people in prison are from poverty.
It works as a deterrent for those of the middle and upper classes quite well.

[jesupocaplypse]

Do they really? Do you know the majority of people in america?


Statisticly; it's not the middle and upper class folks who form the bulk of the criminal populace.


although those that do, are quite often the real terrible, violent criminals... in which case it's usually do to a poor parenting issue...

[sonrisa]

jesu--Statisticly; it's not the middle and upper class folks who form the bulk of the criminal populace.

-- can you define "criminal populace"? If you are referring to those in prison, then you are correct. Poor folx do not have access to decent lawyers & are represented by either overworked public defenders who have more cases than time, or pro-bono lawyers more interested in working on their paying cases then the ones they have to do pro-bono. Poor folx do not have the resources to hire pi's, forensics & other experts who could counter the police & the proscecution's experts, so that maybe they can beat the rap. People with $ can afford to hire high powered lawyers & their own experts & have a better chance to beat the rap. Plus there's a bias against the poor- white trash & all that- like, s/he's poor so s/he must of done the crime. So yes, it's true that poor folx are more likely to go to jail for crimes they may or may not have committed.

OTOH, folx with $ can buy their way to acquittal. So there are folx walking around out there who did the crime but ain't doing the time. Are they any less criminal than the ones in prison?



jesu--although those that do, are quite often the real terrible, violent criminals...

--are they really? Hmmmm.... I never considered embezzling & other white collar cimes particulary violent but I could be wrong....



jesu--in which case it's usually do to a poor parenting issue....

-- is it really? I belong to a local death penalty group & have met the families of some of these dudes. They all seem to be normal, caring folx, who work & lead productive lives & don't engage in criminal activities. That includes the sibs.

[jesupocaplypse]

Your right about those first two, but most serial killers and rapists, came from middle/upper class lives.


but i still stand by the parenting problem.

You met parents sure, but did you see them do any parenting? did you experience the childhood those violent criminals were raised in? It's up to the parents to guide a child into the world, and teach them how to get along. Yes, outside sources play just as large a role, but it's still the parents duty, to help the child see the lesson in their expereinces. If the child/being, only degenerates from their expereinces, well, the parent obviously failed to teach their child anything important.

[sahyo]

but it's still the parents duty, to help the child see the lesson in their expereinces.

called parent cannot know that


If the child/being, only degenerates from their expereinces

degenerates?

[sonrisa]

jesu--You met parents sure, but did you see them do any parenting?

--I saw them do some grandparenting :D
I also saw the parents interact with their grown kids, if that qualifys as parenting. They are decent caring folx, nothing sinister or "criminal" about them. If you saw these families picnicing in a park or someplace, you wouldn't guess they had a family member in prison



jesu-- did you experience the childhood those violent criminals were raised in?

--only the "violent criminals" can experience that



jesu--It's up to the parents to guide a child into the world, and teach them how to get along.

--& some kids still screw up. Actually most kids do to varying degrees, but only some screw up & end up in jail.



jesu-- Yes, outside sources play just as large a role

-- more than you give credit for

My point in my last post is that if you have a houseful of kids & only 1 ends up in prison, you can't really say it was the parents when the other kids turned out ok. To give an example- in the afore-mentioned death penalty group, I became friends with a girl who was moving heaven & earth to get her brother's sentence commuted. She was very high-profile, family spokesperson, etc... The local media was churning out these sob stories about what a crappy home life/upbringing her brother had had, he was abused, etc.... I told my friend to put a lid on that stuff, for one thing those stories slandered her Mom, who may or may not have been the world's best parent (is there really such a thing?) but she is a good caring person who is not neglectful or abusive towards her family. More importantly, as I told my friend, folx read that bleeding heart stuff about your bro, & then they see you speaking up for him & see that you come from the same house & you turned out good, they're gonna know those stories are crap & it's not gonna help his case.
The same can be said of the other families I met. They are hardworking folx who love & care for each other, who for various reasons, have a sib/relative in prison. You can't simply paint these prisoners with the same brush. Your brush in particular, is offensive- if a somebody turns out bad, blame it on their folx. What about having people held responsible for their actions?

From what you've said in some of your other posts, it appears you're living a lifestyle- in some sort of commune or community- that I would love to eventually get into someday, except I wanna do it someplace where I won't freeze my buns off. Right now, however, I'm living in a city & things are different here. There's crack houses & other sordid stuff that you tell your kids to stay away from & why, but you can't be with them 24/7, especially after they turn 18. You do your best to raise them & cross your fingers that they turn out ok. That's all any parent can hope for, I think.

As for you other comments- asheera :thumbsup:

[jesupocaplypse]

your right. my mind hath been changed.

[sonrisa]

thanx :)
and you're right too- in some cases
but in other cases other factor(s) are involved

[CSwriter1]

Whoo, whoo, whoo, I love the analogy of training a puppy and putting human offenders in prison, up to the point a new solution and punishing parents.

First it is simplist to think punishment teaches social skills. Humans must learn just about everything, and therefore they need to be educated in what to do, not just what not to do. My X son in law is a habitual offender, who was very abusive to his family, and few understand the horrors of prison socialization than I have learned through my family.

Secondly, every society will get the crime it deserves. There are two ways of having social order, culture or authority over the people. Before we began preparing our youth for a technological society with unknown values (1958), we prepared them for citizen. This education is essential to our liberty. When we stopped doing this, we tore families apart!!! No longer were our old fashioned, outdated parents to be respected. No longer was age 30 still youth, but we now treat youth as adults in court. Chrisitianity mixed with education for technology, is making a horror of our social concept of justice. Because we stopped transmitting the essential culture, that leaves only authority over the people for social order, and LET ME ASSURE YOU, THAT AUTHORITY IS NO LONGER THE PARENT BUT THE GOVERNMENT.

Now, if anyone attempt to punish me for the results of this New World Order decision, put prepared for one hell of a fight. Every year we get further away from the changed purpose of public education, things get worse, because now the parents don't even have a clue what makes for good citizenship, and if by chance their parents succeeded in transmitting this information, they will have no social support in rasing their children!!! Only if we talk religion, or our experience of illusion, is anything said about morality. We have lost the ability to discuss social order and human behavior. This life might be only an illusion, but right now we are all sharing this illusion and I suggest we assume more responsibility for it.

[venom mama]

what about other than physical pain?

when it comes down to it physical pain is nothing, unless you are a child or creature who has no understanding, only feeling.

what about mental anguish? do you count that as pain?

heartbreak?

is there any pain more intense?

i've experienced a good bit in my life and the worst suffering i ever went through (personally, not feeling sorry for something else) was heartbreak.

i would take physical pain over it any day.

did i learn a lesson? yes.

i learned never ever to give myself freely, never ever to let love rule, never ever to believe love could change the world, never ever.....to love.


virtues of pain, whatever.


if pain is all you have to use to teach your leson, well,



how sad and pathetic are you?

[Truthbearer]

Everything is karma.
Our lives - our relationships - the way we think, and Be.
(until we see the karmas, and make inroads to remove ourselves)


If we do not see that - we are forever in judgement.. and one cannot ascend in judgement, one cannot attain enlightenment in judgement.
And one cannot truly love oneself.. whilst one is continually judging and not loving.

Namaste
Pat

[CSwriter1]

Sonrisa,

It is interesting to me that so few consider the political aspects of our lives. How can democracy possibly work when it is rare for people think in political terms?

You mentioned that poor people can not afford the best defense. I want to add to this, those in poverty and those who are well to do, live completely different realities. I use to think "poverty is a meaningful experience" that those of us born white and middle class, could never have. Then came the 1970 recession and I learned there is nothing meaningful about poverty. Poverty, when caused by economic conditions that severly restrict opportunity, only destroys. Poverty is physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually exhausting, at least in this culture where the middle class is the norm and supported law at a cost to the poor. From this point of view, those who make and enforce the laws are the enemy. THOSE WHO CONTROL THE RESOURCES ARE THE ENEMY and this condition will destroy liberty.

This is such a hugely different reality from my father's home in an exclusive neighborhood where everyone is protected from the harsher realities of life. Like this is literally a different consciousness. It is so different the consciousness of the poor is not known, and visa versa, the poor do not preceive reality the same as the rich. The difference is like how a someone on a tropical island experiences life and an Eskimo in the artic experiences life. Now if law is based on universal law- what universals laws apply to all? How would all learn of these universal laws?

[jesupocaplypse]

Well said Venomgirl, i must agree. Physical pain is the least of all pains. Mental pain, and spiritual pain are far greater and longer lasting often.

But sadly in this day and age, Most, are not as receptive to spirtual or even mental, ... anything. Most people in this physical plane, are just too dang caught up in Physical existance... ;)

[sahyo]

Physical pain is the least of all pains. Mental pain, and spiritual pain are far greater and longer lasting often.

can clarify saying this stuff jes? :)

[Truthbearer]

Pain is a mirror to see a karma. physical or mental.
Poverty is a mirror to see a karma.

AND 'poverty' is subjective .. I would be considered poor by some standards, but I have all I need, for the spiritual work that I do.. in fact, I am rich beyond compare!!


If one has a need to inflict upon others / lives whereby they have been inflicted upon .. karma.
If one constantly feels pain / lives whereby they did some inflicting themselves - you are being made to see what it is like .. karma.


Everything are mirrors .. orchestrated and synchronised, to see the karmas .. to transmute and transcend.

and yes, CSwriter you are right .. long ago we disenpowered ourselves.
we left our spirituality up to religions.. who did a fine job of empowering themselves.
we left our health up to doctors.. instead of understanding self-healing.
we left our personal life decision making up to councils and governments.
we left our child rearing, and its subteties up to the teaching profession.
Why?
Because humanity Lacked.. no back-bone.. and no deep spiritual core truths.
Why?
Karmas.
When one can see all ones karmas .. (and we can with practise) we then can see the 'big view' .. the immense manipulation to humanity .. and it was sooooo goddamn easy..
We see WHO did the manipulating, and WHY. It was very much desired that humanity was to be disenpowered..

Total revelations!
To know ones pastlife Truth .. is the most empowering activity we can do for ourselves.
Why?
Because in divesting ourselves of pastlife traumas, we get off the karmic wheel .. and this is very self-empowering (especially for those who think they are ascending .. because 'ascension' takes active/physical/conscious karmic clearing.
If one does not - then one will keep on attracting the necessary 'mirrors' to see the karmas.

(yes jesu .. people are not tuning into 'anything' (spiritual or ascension) .. know why? .. lives and lives of tuning into the wrong dang thing .. being led up the (spiritual) garden path.. contantly, by beings telling us they were our 'gods'/gurus.. when in fact, they were not. Many souls are now so tired, tired of making the same mistake yet again ..
these are actually karmas on our chakras .. disabling our chakras so severely, that we do not know 'Truth' if it hit us around the head with a mallet!!. (there are so many 'truths' out there now - all the 'isms' under the sun - this is why, when we learn to connect/commune .. we learn a 'discernement' tool (muscle-testing or penduluming)

Namaste

Pat

[jesupocaplypse]

Clarify.... umm, as in examples? or explanations of my meaning when i use the terms Physical Mental and Spiritual pain?

I've experienced pretty intense pain in all departments in my life, i was about to say extreme, but i am aware of many who have experienced far worse.

My testicle has been ruptured resulting in my scrotom swelling with blood, to the size of a softball or a grapefruit... about a 5" diameter. The next 3 weeks: i was Pain Incarnate.

I've been shot. Twice. (not really that painful though)

My wife died giving birth to my daughter.

Believe me. I know pain.

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by jesupocaplypse@Apr 26 2005, 10:27 PM

My testicle has been ruptured resulting in my scrotom swelling with blood, to the size of a softball or a grapefruit... about a 5" diameter. The next 3 weeks: i was Pain Incarnate.



thank you for sharing that Jesu

ps I'm sincerely sorry you lost your wife however

[Truthbearer]

If people cannot commune to get their questions answered .. then one can use muscle-testing and/or penduluming.

Jesu .. EVERY painful thing in your life, are mirrors to see karmas.
One pendulums every painful think, and discovers WHAT the lesson was for you to learn.

One can even jot downevery painful thing they remember.. and pendulum over each one "Was there a lesson for me to learn here?"
you will get a 'yes' everytime.
This is how we learn and enhance our clairvision.
By seeing pastlives, again and again.

Then we ask to see 'Original Cause' (because if we dont, we will just see hundreds of the same ole same ole.. lives of where we lived this karma backwards and forwards/perpetrayer-victim, playing out).

Once one INTENDS to see the Original Cause of ones now painful experience, oftentimes the vision will blow your mind .. and the emotion will erase what has been sitting in your(and your ancestors) unconscious for eons.
Well it is FORGIVENESS that erases .. all these painful mirrors and experiences now need to be seen, understood and forgiven.. but experiencing 'emotion'.. has shown that you indeed have really seen, and really understood.

One grounds.
One calls on Soul to be with them
One Intends.
One closes their eyes, and 'imagines'/pretends (this 'pretending' opens a door).. and you are there.. have a good look .. even ask soul questions to what you are seeing.

Namaste
Pat

[sahyo]

Clarify.... umm, as in examples? or explanations of my meaning when i use the terms Physical Mental and Spiritual pain?

ah....was referring Physical pain is the least of all pains. Mental pain, and spiritual pain are far greater and longer lasting often.
listing as though can separate paining


I've experienced pretty intense pain in all departments in my life, i was about to say extreme, but i am aware of many who have experienced far worse.

My testicle has been ruptured resulting in my scrotom swelling with blood, to the size of a softball or a grapefruit... about a 5" diameter. The next 3 weeks: i was Pain Incarnate.

I've been shot. Twice. (not really that painful though)

My wife died giving birth to my daughter.

yes sweeting...., but is 'was' happening?


Believe me. I know pain.

know? or....




:hug:

[Doel]

As said earlier "pain teaches you what to steer away from...pleasure teaches you what to strive and aim for"

Pain and suffering are processes which every soul has to bear...
The way we deal with that pain and suffering leads to change...
And change is what life is all about...about our lessons learnt...
Thus each of us conciously or sub conciously chooses the changes in our lives...
Thus Pain and suffering is Life...
It gives you hope...
And hope is what life is all about

[jesupocaplypse]

Originally posted by asheera@Apr 27 2005, 11:59 PM
listing as though can separate paining

could make a very long list of the many many seperate types of pain <_< ing

would then look at such a list and re alise that, all the items on this list are the same, are pain...

but they would still all be different types of the same thing.

[sahyo]

ok :)



I know pain.


"I know"?

[Truthbearer]

we dont steer away from pain.
we scrutinize it, study it, explore it.
But it is not for the feint hearted .. nor the wishy washy.
It takes time, focus and courage, and ultimately FORGIVENESS.
This is what the lesson has been presented for, for one to see, understand and do something that we should have done a thousand years previous .. say sorry or forgive.
and THEN you have done yourself a favour, your future ancestors a favour, and many others around the globe a favour (one karma now resides in a million others)

But you are right Doel .. there is ALWAYS Hope.

This is the lesson .. define the pain, and you define the karma.
and THEN it can be removed from the unconscioius .. with conscious understanding of WHAT the lesson was all about.

xxPat

Its time to remove ourselves from the wheel.

[venom mama]

is there anything but pain?

[Doel]

Hey truthbearer.... true -one does not steer away from pain... but pain teaches you what to steer away from or rather transcend /overcome.....
It depends on YOUR life.... particularly YOU......
not everybody has the same experiences with pain....
Moreover one can never learn from other people's sufferings or lives....
We have our own individual pains to suffer.... that makes us what we are...

[WilliamMckeehan]

My testicle has been ruptured resulting in my scrotom swelling with blood, to the size of a softball or a grapefruit... about a 5" diameter. The next 3 weeks: i was Pain Incarnate.

I've been shot. Twice. (not really that painful though)

My wife died giving birth to my daughter.


jesupocaplypse- thats pretty ruff sorry to hear that but i will remember you for when something is hard or painful i will remember that inless i am in more pain for some such reason then i will remember another in worse pain ... but if i can ask you a question... why did you get shot? and were? you dont have to answer ... but u seem like the person that would. i wish the best of life to you either way

i will admit human life is about 95% pain (maybe more or less not sure) but most perents do not show there kids this... which could or could not be a good thing... i think being introduced to pain ... at a early age can help... just not too much... like me for example i had a lot of mental and Physical pain... but not too much to completely scare me for life... i think i turned out a good person ... but im not sure if that is why.

[ddedhia]

have you given thought that I am poor, I don't have enough money. I live in a shabby place with dirty clothes. When I go to Jail, I have clean clothes, good food, I don't have to worry about getting food, shelter and clothes. The 3 basic neccessities of humanlife. I would rather commit a crime and enjoy life in prison than live a shabby life, despised by others, looked at with shame and disgust from people inside their cars. Nobody will give me a job since I look shabby and dirty. Democracy does not work for me, the rule of the strong is still applicable in my way of life.

just a thought .. .. ..

[buzzlightyear1982]

It's interesting you bring that up! A couple of years ago I came across a report that said that inmates who get out on bail often commit the same crime just to return to jail. Because they no longer feel comfortable in the outside community and because of the fact you brought up...they don't have to worry about food, shelter, or clothes B)