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teacher_mark
20th January 2005, 08:10 AM
It's my first post here. I've posted this elsewhere. So it's not that I needed the place to say it. It's more like a test, if you'll forgive me that. I suppose I brought this post to see how it would sound in this room, to see how the room would hear it. But you don't need to know any of that.

My daughter and I ran across a beautiful book of Hindu mythology. In text and brightly colored oil paintings, it told many stories of the life of Krisna. They were good stories and sometimes I wished I'd payed the $60 they wanted for the book so we could get to know them all.

The one that most caught my attention was of Krishna as a boy, teaming up with a friend to steal butter from the household kitchen. Here was childhood mischief presented in the same way-- in the same sacred frame-- as the other stories of defeating evil enemies and such.

In reflecting on how refreshing it was to see a story about a deity as a child, I realized that Christianity lacks this. There is Christmas, with the celebration of Jesus as a baby, then there's a little mention of a young (pre-teen?) Jesus questioning the priests when his parents take him to town, and then he's 30.

How the story ended up this way is pretty clear. No one knew who Jesus was until he started preaching at age 30, then after his death the stories of his birth and the questioning of the priests were added to his tale to fill it out. In both, but especially, the case of the birth story, the main purpose seems to be to establish that Jesus was special from the beginning, that he was born to be who he became.

This is a little like the story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, which I believe was invented when he became a politician. It is not a historical story, but says something about the character of the man which people believed to be true and important nonetheless.

But we can't treat a story like the life of Jesus as an historical account, not even as a slightly embellished one. This story (or set of stories) is taken by many to be the authoritative guide to life. My father (a liberal Presbyterian minister) explained to me years ago that the story of Jesus serves as a more functional guide to behavior than the ten commandments or even the golden rule. People, according to theories he'd read and accepted, reason better with stories than they do with lists of rules. Stories tell us in some elemental way what are the differences between heroes and cads. When the "What would Jesus do?" movement came along, I recognized it as an efficient characterization of what my father had been saying. To know the story of Jesus (and accept it as a guide) is to know how to act.

So now we return to the fact that this guide to life has little to say about how to be a boy or girl, a teenager, or even a young adult. Of course one can apply some of Jesus' teachings to children, and tell them to be guided by love and generosity, but that's relying on the rules approach. If we buy into the notion that we need a character in a story with whom we can identify in order to make use of moral lessons, then Chrisitianity fails to provide this.

One final note: Christmas doesn't really tell babies how to act, since after all they can't understand the story. It does function, however, as a celebration of the miracle of birth and the beauty of babies. I did not heard this addressed explicitly in my years of growing up in the church, but I don't think one has to acknowledge this function to be doing it. As people say they're "celebrating the birth of our Lord", they can simultaneously be celebrating babies in general. And as a moral guide the story perhaps calls on adults to treat babies with a certain kind of love and respect.

The toddler, the 7-year-old, the pre-teen, and the adolescent are not similarly honored. Christianity does not offer stories that glory in the beauty of the five-year-old stealing sugar and what his parents do to keep him under control (I think they tied a bell to Krisna). These common facets of life should also be exalted through sacred stories-- not only to tell children how they should act, but to celebrate them.

Nick_A
20th January 2005, 08:25 AM
Hello Mark

I discriminate between Christianity and Christendom which is man made. Christendom seeks to tell people how to act and God what to do. Christianity is rare since its concern is for what you are.

Assuming this to be true it is obvious why just telling the young what to do is not all that beneficial since as perceptive they are, they try and copy what we are so everything repeats. From Meister Eckhart:

"People should not worry as much about what they do but rather about what they are. If they and their ways are good, then their deeds are radiant. If you are righteous, then what you do will also be righteous. We should not think that holiness is based on what we do but rather on what we are, for it is not our works which sanctify us but we who sanctify our works."

jesupocaplypse
20th January 2005, 09:29 AM
If we are told how to act, whether it be through rules, or story, our entire lives... you're not Free. If you arn't allowed to live and experience and grow On Your Own, your not a human, your a drone.

I'm reminded of a song by Incubus, written by Brandon Boyd: Make Yourself

If I hadn't made me,
I would've been made somehow.
If I hadn't assembled myself,
I'd have fallen apart by now.
If I hadn't made me,
I'd be more inclined to bow.
the Powers that be would have swallowed me up,
but that's more than I can allow.

If you let them make you,
they'll make you paper-mache.
At a distance you're strong,
until the wind comes
then you crumble and blow away


Now I don't like the idea of a book telling me how to be at any point in life, but for some people, who are afraid to make themselves, they need that help, that guidance. So be it. But if One is told/taught how to be, how to act, from birth to death... What are they? A construct. An automaton. Especially when they are told how to live, during that most crucial time of a persons life: their youth. The time when they should be making themselves.

mmmyep. Peace.

Micheal
27th January 2005, 12:47 AM
Some say he traviled to India. Some say he studied with the great masters of the middle east. Some say he lived as a Nazer-Essene. The Nazers devoted there lives to God and lived astetic lives like the yogi's of India. The Essene's where a group of people that lived there lives much like the peace commuitys of the Buddhists. The Essenes believed Enoch was there founder and The Heavenly Father and The Earthly Mother where there main focus in there teachings. They also used the Commandments in a differnt way than the common Jews of the time. They believed they where steping stones. Once you understood the principal of all the commandments you would have a diffrent set of rules only less. And you moved alone this path until you understood the One Commandment.

There are also storys of a man in India named "Issa" or "Isha" which is translated Jesus. This boy was a forginer and studied with the Brahmans. His discoruces where directied to a singel-pointed view on God. Which contradicted most "Hindu" concepts. He also chastised the 'Cast' system. All of these ideas almost got him killed. So he traveld to the Gautama area of India and studied with the Buddha of the time, learned and understood the teachings. He was then Blessed by the Buddha to spread the holy word or dharma. At this time he left India.

During the comunistic invasion of the all the major religious tempels these texts of Jesus's travel got lost.

Peace be with you all.
-Mike

NeverMind
27th January 2005, 08:00 AM
Incubus is good.

Books are good. You can learn things from books.
Whether its the Bible or Mein Kampf
Whether its the Koran or Mao's Little Red Book
You can learn from them.

Don't let one book govern your belief system.
You must listen and be open-minded.
Compare what you learn to what you know
and meditate before deciding on anything.

I am a human. I am no drone. Because I have the capacity to think and make decisions.

jesupocaplypse
27th January 2005, 08:33 AM
namaste

teacher_mark
5th February 2005, 01:01 AM
Perhaps I shuold say that I don't assume there's any historical accuracy to the story. Maybe there is. It doesn't matter to the issue I'm raising or the approach I'm using. My sense is that this is a character and a set of stories which a great many people use to interpret life, and I am evaluating it in those terms. It's good for a lot of things, and offers a lot of guidance. It celebrates a lot of the beauty of life. But it leaves out childhood.

DoWalker
5th February 2005, 01:38 AM
I've heard the "Jesus goes to India" theory before, though if I'm correct, the line of evidence is thin, at best.

I'd say you've hit on a central controversy, here. The question is really what Jesus was like as a child. Was he precocious? Or was he obviously "Son of God" as an eight-year-old. There's that story about him wandering away from his parents to go to Temple, which can be used to argue both sides -- he was disobedient enough to wander off on his own, but wise enough to fascinate the learned men at the temple.

A related question is this: did he suffer the same way a mortal human would've? Did he experience regret for misdeeds, or were there no misdeeds to regret? Did he experience the emotion hate, and then feel guilty about it afterwards? Did he lust? Was he ever slothful? (You get where I'm going with this.)

Do we only hear about the adult Jesus because he had to grow up, and learn from mistakes, or was he beyond the mistakes the rest of us make?

I think it's interesting that as late as the crucifiction itself, he asks "Father, why have you forsaken me?"

Consequently, my opinion is that his faith wavered at times. I think he sinned. I'll bet he made mistakes in his youth, and had to learn from them.