The Most Awful Thing Ever

[Ronagon]

Okay, here's a topic for you all:

What's the most awful thing you can imagine? It could be a punishment or whatever... But what is it?

[...]

..having to listen to an entire Celin Dion record, and i'm not joking...

[bito]

Being deprived of any human contact for a long period of time. Not sure how long is 'long'... :lol:

[Ronagon]

The most awful thing I can imagine, is what they do in the book 1984, to the character Winston Smith, when they take him to Room 101.

[jesupocaplypse]

Understanding of that is restricted to those who have read it... could you explain?

I can think of some pretty awful things... not sure if the Most awful would be appropriate...

[sonrisa]

dubya's pretty awful. Can't say if he's the most awful thing, but he's definitely up there.

[venom mama]

nuclear war

[jesupocaplypse]

nah nuclear war wouldn't be so bad, for the most part, it'd be over kinda quick wouldn't it? Now chemical or biological war, globally speaking, would be much worse, slow and painful, possibly hideuous mutations and perhaps some flesh eating for kicks, unless it was some kind of nerve gas, and it was just all of a sudden *oop* i'm dead. then that'd not be so awful as perhaps being awoken in the middle of the night to a bucket of ice water drenching you, followed by a 4 gallon pail full of Lye, including extra lye being Worked into your eyes by someone with those chainmail butchers gloves. that's quite awful but it could be worse yet. There could also be some painful nonsense involving a drill and one's genitals. Perhaps all this while watching/erk/listening to loved one's being brutally tortured.... :knockout: i think my imagination knows no limits, i could go on perpetually increaing the awfulness of anything, because I can do the same in the other direction as well. What about

The Most Wonderful Thing Ever: that would be a much more enjoyable discussion thread methinks

[venom mama]

the most wonderful thing ever........


getting naked with the music real loud (linkin' park) after a couple of beers with a hot guy that you can throw out in the morning

[jesupocaplypse]

the most wonderful thing ever... my daughter.



, but getting naked with the music real loud is good too. Red Hot Chili Peppers is my choice though...

:thumbsup:

[NeverMind]

Worst thing ever thats HAPPENED to me:
Getting your junk stuck in your zipper

BEST thing ever:
naked in a vat of chocolate (even better with someone special and/or great music)

venomgirl-
your avatar betrays you
the virgin mary doesnt listen to Linkin Park
(i usually dont like them but Collision Course was bloody BRILLIANT! I dont usually like Jay-Z either)
Chester needs hair or muscles.
Axl Rose could kick his ass :D

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by NeverMind+Dec 24 2004, 05:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (NeverMind @ Dec 24 2004, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Worst thing ever thats HAPPENED to me:
Getting your junk stuck in your zipper[/b]

-- OUCH!!
(you call the family jewels junk?!!??
:shakehead: no appreciation)


Originally posted by Nevermind@

BEST thing ever:
naked in a vat of chocolate (even better with someone special and/or great music)

-Kathryn & Kurt Cobain maybe? :D


<!--QuoteBegin--Nevermind
venomgirl-
your avatar betrays you
the virgin mary doesnt listen to Linkin Park[/quote]

-She listens to Our Lady Peace & the Jesus & Mary Chain. Sometimes Marilyn Manson. She likes to watch Ozzy on TV. She gets her parenting tips from Sharon.

:P

[NeverMind]

I hate having balls. They just get in the way. They are my junk.

Kathryn and Kurt would be the ultimate bliss. Especially if both of them were naked. And chocolate would definitely add appeal.

I'll Stone your Temple Pilots! ooh burn.

[nronesquid]

The very worst thing I can think of today, is not being able to hold a woman in my arms and dancing with her all night long.

The very best thing I can think of is Dancing with the Love of my Life for most of the night, and then making Love to her for eternity.



I do so love Ice Cream Cones, and the woman I love knows that.

:P :D :P

[NeverMind]

Ice Cream is yummy.

The worst feeling, which I'm feeling right now, is being so far away from the one you love.

The best is holding her tight and telling her how much I love her.

that and oral sex.

[venom mama]

Originally posted by NeverMind@Dec 24 2004, 04:02 PM


BEST thing ever:
naked in a vat of chocolate (even better with someone special and/or great music)

chocolate?


no.





whipped cream.

[NeverMind]

maybe bacon...

[jesupocaplypse]

chocolate pudding swirled with whip cream! mmmm

[NeverMind]

no!

strawberry jello swirled with whipped cream!

try it.

its AMAZING

[venom mama]

Originally posted by NeverMind@Jan 14 2005, 03:09 AM
no!

strawberry jello swirled with whipped cream!

try it.

its AMAZING
yes. :smoke:

[NeverMind]

bacon

[jesupocaplypse]

headcheese

[venom mama]

silly :silly:

[NeverMind]

jesu-
who is that dude?
i know he's MegaMan's brother
is it PlasmaMan?

[Suze]

THE MOST AWFUL THING EVER would be to live without love.

If you're living without love, you're not living; you're existing.

To me, love is freedom; there are no laws, limits, or expectations.

When I love, I love with ALL my heart...but those words don't even come close to the meaning they hold for me.

I LOVE YOU doesn't mean you owe me something or that I want/desire/expect something from you.

Desire is something that brings pain and suffering...because the mind is never satisfied.

All my love, Suze

[sahyo]

if as though


I LOVE YOU


then not without


want/desire/expect

[jesupocaplypse]

He is Protoman.



Welcome Suze. Much love to you.

You too Asheera.

and all the rest of the wondaful folks here.

:loveyou:

[sahyo]

:loveyou:

[Nick_A]

Suze

I LOVE YOU doesn't mean you owe me something or that I want/desire/expect something from you.

Do you believe in "tough love"? If, for example, another has a problem with drugs. Would you think it loving that you act in a way towards them that will make them despise you from refusing to accept this addiction because of YOUR expectations?

[NeverMind]

Loving someone is having no expectations for them. Neither of you have to PROVE your love because it is mutual. You do not EXPECT sex, or even kissing or touching. You enjoy the time you spend with the person you love, regardless of what you are doing.

Tough love would be helpful to the person you are showing love to. If you truly care about someone, why would you allow them to destroy themselves?

[jesupocaplypse]

If you truly care about someone, why would you Not allow them to make their own choices? Be they destructive or constructive... If you truly care about someone, you can show them a different path, but you can't force them to walk it. Thats not love, that's fear of loss.

[Common Sense]

The most wonderful thing is a shapely bottom.

The most horrible thing is finding out God exists.

[Nick_A]

Common Sense

The most wonderful thing is a shapely bottom.

The most horrible thing is finding out God exists.

Well if all things exist within God and God simultaneously exists in all things, then God exists in a shapely bottom as well. Sometimes it's not too wise to bite the hand that feeds so to speak.

Incidentally, as an aside, could you tell me what it takes for the creation of common sense which is not a definition and do it in one sentence? Not the usual "sound practical judgment" type of skirting the issue. What creates common sense?

[Common Sense]

Hi, Nick, that's a lovely conditional statement you've strung together. I'll just grant it to you but deny that God exists (you know, that pesky antecedent), so then I have no worries, now, do I?

What does it take for common sense to come about? Oh, I don't know. I can say a few things, but it'll just be off the cuff stuff. I'm not sure how worthwhile that would be to read or even to think. Here it goes anyway, just for you.

You need a good dose of life experience. You need to be a sound reasoner. You need to be temperate. And, most importantly, you need to believe that there are correct and incorrect answers. Once you have all those things, then you're fertile ground for the growth of common sense.

Yes, I helped myself to some rather vague terms. Be that as it may, it's still a decent answer. What say you?

Common Sense (it's just my foil for 'Super Philosophical Giant')

[sonrisa]

I'd say it took you 5 sentences to give the 1 sentence explanation he asked for. :)

[Ronagon]

Here's another awful thing:

Being strapped down to a chair, while your willy is placed on a table-top... then having a glass rod inserted all the way down your urethra, and then giggling midgets run up and pound on your dick with a wooden mallet, smashing the glass inside.

Most girls today are into this kind of thing.

[Ronagon]

Another awful thing is what they did to Winston Smith, inside Room 101 in George Orwell's novel, 1984.

Rats... *shudder*

[venom mama]

you must know some pretty odd girls ronagon...........





1984 excellent book

read animal farm too........ even better

[Ronagon]

"odd girls" is a redundant phrase.

There is no such thing as a non-odd girl.

[DoWalker]

Sorry to bring everybody down by treating the question seriously, and avoiding the discussion on sexual deviance, but the worst thing ever is helplessly watching your child suffer. :(

Mind you, I've never experienced the thing about the glass rod. I'm just assuming it's not as bad.

[Ronagon]

Dirty laundry, anyone?

The worst thing for me, is when conceited, low-life scum size you up as an easy mark because it's obvious that you're good, decent, and helpful. They put on a calculated display of how "special" you are to them, in order to exploit your helpfulness as long as they can, while all the while they secretly have no real regard or respect for you.

Then, when they've gotten on their feet, they finally reveal their true personality, show their suppressed contempt for "goody-goodies" like you, and leave you to die while they celebrate your destruction with their conceited scumbag friends and family. Your entire life is broken and shattered and you are further brutalized and abused by a morally-inverted society that actually sees such vicious and sadistic behavior as admirable (but denies it when pressed, of course).

The payback, however, comes later when these people's own supreme arrogance catches up with them in mysterious ways...

I've already had an old "friend" from high school try and come back into my life after pulling this shit on me; she had found a "new humility" after finding out that she had cancer, and wanted to meet with me again...

I told her to die slow and painful and all alone, and that she was getting off light considering how much conceited fun she had previously had at my expense. She immediately exposed her true self and said all the vicious, conceited shit to my face that she had always secretly thought about me but was never in a situation of true frustration before such that it would ever come blurting out of her, to my face.

And of course, I just laughed as it was plainly obvious that I had just forced her to expose her true self. I savored her sudden, death-like realization that she didn't have me as a much-needed safety net in her darkest hour, when I was probably the only big-hearted person (or sucker, as she calculated) who would take her in, if everything in her life ever fell apart to a catastrophic degree.

And guess what? Just a month later, she was stone cold dead from that cancer of hers. Newton's Third Law is a beautiful thing to see in action.

And, ya know... I just can't wait for the same thing to happen with other such "significant others" from my past. I do so love showing off my brand-new, cold-blooded side. :)

And so, three cheers for me! :lol: :) :thumbsup: :P

[NeverMind]

As much as I admire your honesty to that girl,
Thats a bit harsh.

I can only imagine how hard it would be to see someone you love in pain. Thankfully I havn't had to experience that (yet)

And the glass in the urethra thing? Thats just wrong. That is quite possible the most awful and disgusting thing I've ever heard. Yuck. :cry: :knockout:

Then again, physical pain is much easier to deal with than emotional pain.

[DoWalker]

I savored her sudden, death-like realization that she didn't have me as a much-needed safety net in her darkest hour, when I was probably the only big-hearted person (or sucker, as she calculated) who would take her in, if everything in her life ever fell apart to a catastrophic degree.


Seeing as how we're on the philosophy page, let me ask you about your personal philosophy. I see you're pretty passionate about this, and I sympathize, because my heart got squashed a few times, too, but please try to give me a dispassionate answer. Here's my question:

Does the glee you are feeling at your own self-rightous anger not cause you harm, psychologically? Would forgiveness, while leaving you open and vulnerable, not bring you more peace?

[Common Sense]

Vengeance is sometimes what is best. If you caught the person who brutally inflicted pain on your child, would you or could or should forgive him?

It takes a different kind of person to be able to forgive this person. I personally would never want to become this type of person. I think you should seek your revenge and give yourself at least that peace of mind. To say, "I forgive you," and not to genuinely mean it would only cause you more harm. I say find the comfort of destroying that person, for he has forfeited his right to life in brutally torturing your child.

Anyone who tells me they could just forgive him, I can only smile and pass them by.

[Ronagon]

Does the glee you are feeling at your own self-rightous anger not cause you harm, psychologically? Would forgiveness, while leaving you open and vulnerable, not bring you more peace?

I find spite to be quite healing, and perhaps the greatest motivator of all states of mind.

I also believe that forgiveness is for suckers, promoted by those with larceny on their minds.

[Ronagon]

Common Sense is very wise.

[NeverMind]

This is the most awful thing ever:
http://richter.colorado.edu/~sethmc/stuff/threepocon-haiku.gif

I hate pokemon with a PASSION.
Pokemon sucked money out of my parents pockets for my little brother for too long.

[NeverMind]

Revenge is a very very sweet thing. Never underestimate the power of a wounded person to inflict pain on the person who wounded him.

[Ronagon]

The only problem with revenge, is that you so often have to wait so long to get it, and by then the rotten bastard has already lived a full, rich life with no regrets, having stepped on everybody to get there.

[venom mama]

revenge, vengence



they still win.
you become consumed by them.

they rule your thoughts and emotions.

you might think you got what you wanted, but they have already won making you want something to happen to them.

they consume you and the only thing you have left is your bitterness.

you still think about them, your mind always returns to thoughts of them.

they win. you were consumed.

better to just take things as a lesson learned and forget about them.




want to show your hard, cold side?
why?
it's a weakness.


bitter
so bitter.



sad.

[Ronagon]

venom,

That's quite a slick strategy you employ... blaming the victim. :lol:

Under that philosophy, you can do what you like with people, and after you've hurt them or worse, they're the bad guys if they hold you accountable.

This is why Christianity ruins the world... it encourages a downward spiral into a sneaky, cutthroat society.

[venom mama]

i'm not blaming the "victim"
and no you can't just do what you want to people
not everyone seeks to go out and hurt or cause heartbreak.
but if someone is like that isn't it better to not have them in your life anyways?





i just don't understand why you would want to sink to the same level as someone that has hurt you.







why not just be better than that and say, oh well, their loss?

[Ronagon]

Because if you don't punish the arrogant bastards, they will be sure they can get away with it easily...

If you punish the arrogant bastards, they will think twice before going out there and doing it to any other good people like yourself.

That, and it also makes you feel like not so helpless and weak, if you can go back and **** up their conceited little world.

You just don't understand the bully's mentality... The bully only stops when you smash a ****ing hammer into their face. Then they stop, and wanna be nice.

You seem to think that they're cruel because they're "misunderstood". That's not true. They're cruel because they live in their own little fantasy world half the time, and have never been held accountable for being evil.

They're so stupid... They actually think they're Superman. But when you smash a frying pan in their laughing faces, then all of a sudden it dawns on them that they can't get away with things, and their behavior towards you suddenly improves.

This is the truth. You have no clue.

[venom mama]

you're right


some people do need to be taught a lesson


go ahead



**** those bastards up

[DoWalker]

You just don't understand the bully's mentality... The bully only stops when you smash a ****ing hammer into their face. Then they stop, and wanna be nice.


That's because they have an animalistic world view, where power is the only way of getting respect. You show power, and they stop treating you with disrespect. Sometimes violence is, unfortunately, necessary to make someone stop bullying you.

However, even though the physical violence can become necessary, it's the hate and anger that harm you, instead of your enemy. Even though the adreneline makes you feel powerful, you've actually made yourself animalistic.

[Common Sense]

they still win.
you become consumed by them.

This misses the point of our stipulation that we are already consumed by them. And part of that is that we think about hurting them or hurt coming to them, so once we exact this hurt on them, then we're less consumed than before. In fact, it will make us feel better should we ourselves exact this hurt. We will be less consumed knowing that they've suffered for their crimes. We will have the added feeling of satisfaction of inflicting this hurt.

If you're simply advocating that we not be consumed with hate and thought of hurting them, then, again, I can only smile and pass you by.

you might think you got what you wanted, but they have already won making you want something to happen to them.

I'll accept this kind of win. Do they win when I kill them? What an odd notion of winning this is, and, derivately, what an odd notion of losing this is. No, they might win by making us hate them, but they don't win by our thus exacting our revenge against them, not on any non-ridiculous notion of winning.

better to just take things as a lesson learned and forget about them.

Yeah, lesson learned--they just tortured my child to death for the apparent joy in it. I'll just move on and watch TV now. Is it too much to ask that you objectively imagine yourelf in such a situation and then comment on what you'd likely do and feel? I find it quite impossible to believe that you could just forgive.

[venom mama]

if i had children and someone tortured one to death, no, i would not forgive them.



would i want something bad to happen to them?





i don't really know what i would want to come out of it.

but yes, i do imagine my grief would turn to rage.





its just not a circumstance i can predict.

[DoWalker]

I'm not ashamed to say that I was a vicitim of some pretty serious bullying when I was a kid. Along with other factors, that led me to the decision to homeschool my own children -- public school can be a sick place. (I'm a public school teacher -- ironic, eh?) It took me a good decade or so to work through that residual anger, hate, pain, self-loathing, etc. I can still remember quite vividly the emotions that arose at the time.

I was a child.

As an adult looking back, I'd say that violence can be very necessary to stop bullying. How sad. However, as a martial artist, I tell you that it is imperative to remain as devoid of hate and anger as possible. Your fists can still fly while your mind is peaceful.

When you're in the grip of hate, it's like being in the grip of a drug. It feels good temporarily, but in the long term, you're ruining your life.

Smile and pass me by if you wish, but these negative, destructive emotions CAN be controlled and released harmlessly.

[Common Sense]

There is no need to smile and pass you by, DoWalker, for it seems that you understand that sometimes the wanting to and the actual inflicting of harm upon those who have wronged you, albeit in certain situations, is just medicine for them and for you.

You were deeply affected by this bullying, not lasting a short time either, and its effects are evident today, I think it's fair to say.

If your child were subject to this same bullying, I will venture that you'd hope s/he could retaliate against those bullies, thereby not having to experience what you've experienced because of the bullying.

Anyone who has been bullied and put up with it, for whatever reason, knows that partly what eats you up is the fact that you didn't even try to retaliate. Of course this is pardonable in many circumstances, especially in children, but it doesn't stop us from feeling a sense of self-loathing. Yes, we needn't to, but it happens.

That it happens is why sometimes it's preferable to exact your revenge for the unjust and cruel acts perpetrated against you, because the consequences only compound the initial crime.

So I won't be just passing you by, because I think you more than most understand the need for revenge.

[sahyo]

Is revenge something related to anger or something else, and how can we overcome this problem?


Only the ego can be touched. It is very touchy. If somebody just looks at you in a certain way, it is touched. He has not done anything. If somebody smiles a little, it is touched; if somebody just turns his head and does not look at you, it is touched. It is very touchy. It is like a wound, always open, green. You touch it and the pain arises. A single word, a single gesture -- the other may not even be aware of what he has done to you, but he has touched it.

And you always think the other is responsible, that he has wounded you. No, you carry your wound. With the ego your whole being is a wound. And you carry it around. Nobody is interested in hurting you, nobody is positively waiting to hurt you; everybody is engaged in safeguarding his own wound. Who has got the energy? But still it happens, because you are so ready to be wounded, so ready, just waiting on the brink for anything.

You cannot touch a man of Tao. Why? -- because there is no one to be touched. There is no wound. He is healthy, healed, whole. This word ’whole’ is beautiful. The word ’heal’ comes from ’whole’, and the word ’holy’ also comes from ’whole’. He is whole, healed, holy.

Be aware of your wound. Don’t help it to grow, let it be healed; and it will be healed only when you move to the roots. The less the head, the more the wound will heal -- with no head there is no wound. Live a headless life. Move as a total being, and accept things.

Just for twenty-four hours, try it -- total acceptance, whatsoever happens. Someone insults you, accept it, don’t react, and see what happens. Suddenly you will feel an energy flowing in you that you have not felt before. Somebody insults you: you feel weak, you feel disturbed, you start thinking of how to get your revenge. That man has hooked you, and now you will move round and round. For days, nights, months, even years, you will not be able to sleep, you will have bad dreams. People can waste their whole life over a small thing, just because someone insulted them.

Just look back into your past and you will remember a few things. You were a small child and the teacher in the class called you an idiot, and you still remember it and you feel resentment. Your father said something. Your parents have forgotten, and even if you remind them, they will not be able to remember it. Your mother looked at you in a certain way and since then the wound has been there. And it is still open, fresh; if anybody touches it, you will explode.

Don’t help this wound to grow. Don’t make this wound your soul. Go to the roots, be with the whole. For twenty-four hours, just twenty-four hours, try not to react, not to reject, whatsoever happens.

If someone pushes you and you fall to the ground -- fall! Then get up and go home. Don’t do anything about it. If somebody hits you, bow down your head, accept it with gratitude. Go home, don’t do anything, just for twenty-four hours. And you will know a new upsurge of energy that you have never known before, a new vitality arising from the roots. And once you know it, once you have tasted it, your life will be different. Then you will laugh at all the foolish things you have been doing, at all the resentments, reactions, revenges, with which you have been destroying yourself.

Nobody else can destroy you except you; nobody else can save you except you. You are the Judas and you are the Jesus.

Enough for today.


Osho - Excerpted from The Empty Boat, Chapter 10


though wasn't saying ego is, most people live as though ego

[Common Sense]

Such wonderful advice. Hear that, DoWalker? Instead of suffering from your experience of being bullied, all you had to do was become a man of Tao. What practical advice.

So Asheera, if somebody breaks into your home, ties you up, brutally beats your child to death in front of you, you just become this man of Tao and start your next morning off with a bowl of Lucky Charms.

You might as well advise people to forget it ever happened.

We're trying to be honest with ourselves here, which is why it makes sense to say that revenge might be beneficial. It might even be just and necessary. We're not spouting off Buddhistic platitudes.

I think you should play the game by the rules, in this case how people are actually like, not simply invent them as you so obviously do in other cases (spelling and grammar come to mind).

If you actually met a mother who had such an experience, your advice would be offensively naive. You lack an understanding of human beings when you offer that as advice. You lack an earnest desire to help. So I find your suggestion improper, to say the least.

[Ronagon]

Common,

Don't waste your time... These people are only interested in creating plausible rationalizations for their need to be cowards. They think if they sound virtuous enough, the bullies will leave them be.

It's just like High Noon... These are the cowardly townspeople, desperate to make bullying "okay", AND to still somehow see themselves as respectable.

[Common Sense]

In that case, who here is the hot blonde that I get to sleep with?

[sahyo]

common sense

though cannot separate,

'responsing' (called) violence
doesn't paining-revenge seeking to vent paining

nor does 'responsing' desire to "sleep with"
when not happening


:)

[sahyo]

These are the cowardly townspeople, desperate to make bullying "okay",
AND to still somehow see themselves as respectable.



u can't know that

[DoWalker]

Don't waste your time... These people are only interested in creating plausible rationalizations for their need to be cowards. They think if they sound virtuous enough, the bullies will leave them be.

A coward is afraid to fight. A true pacifist is not afraid, but chooses not to fight. A warrior does not want to fight, but will act decisively when necessary. This is not just academic talk; many of us live our lives by this.

Myself, I have no problem fighting to defend myself or my family. I hope that if my son is being hurt, he will also fight back to defend himself.

What you were talking about was revenge, which implies no imminent threat. Revenge means that you want to retaliate for something that happened in the past, not fight back against a present attack.

The other difference is the emotion, and it's a critical difference. The ACT of necessary violence is permissible. It's the EMOTION of hate that is harmful to you.

I feel I'm just beating a dead horse. If you understand my point and disagree, I'll leave well enough alone. I just feel that there is healthy middle ground between this:

And part of that is that we think about hurting them or hurt coming to them, so once we exact this hurt on them, then we're less consumed than before. In fact, it will make us feel better should we ourselves exact this hurt.

and this:

If someone pushes you and you fall to the ground -- fall! Then get up and go home. Don’t do anything about it.

*sigh*

[Common Sense]

DoWalker,

No, I concede the distinction between retaliating and revenge.

But you needn't take my words about having done something to apply to the moment you were getting bullied. All your psychological trauma -- if that's not too harsh a word -- would have been spared had you done something to them the next day, the day after that, or the day after that. There's a fine line between defending yourself and retaliation too. I can retaliate against something you did to me the next day, so it's not necessarily severed from revenge.

And I hope you'll understand that's a fair description too.

Beating a dead horse? That kind of talk is a little premature, don't you think?--Especially since you've only now explained the difference to me, and moreso because I've explained that there needn't be a difference between retaliation and revenge, because retaliation doesn't imply 'at the moment while under threat.'

You're free to choose your middle ground anywhere you like, but that doesn't take away from what you experienced after the bullying nor what most people would experience after having their child tortured before them.

Nobody is denying that the emotion of hate is harmful to you. I could very well deny it, as I think there are exceptions to this pithy rule, but I won't deny it and I haven't. I've said that because you do hate -- something not easily gotten rid of, especially in the case of your child being tortured -- then revenge will help you. It might not ease your hate, but it'll help.

[DoWalker]

I think we're getting closer to common ground. However, I'd also like to draw a distinction between revenge and justice. If someone harms my child and goes to prison for it, fine. If they're walking free, there's an open wound, I'll agree. I think revenge implies the need to cause suffering on the person who wronged you. This goes beyond the idea of justice. Also, I think the line becomes blurred when we talk about things that are harmful but not illegal.

Let's take affairs of the heart, because I think that's what Ronagon started talking about. Infidelity is immoral and harmful, but not illegal. Is it right for the wronged party to take revenge? I argue that it is not. The relationship is troubled, and you may decide to sever it, but I think that while revenge will bring short-term satisfaction, it will bring long-term grief. (For you, not just your former lover.)

So far, we've been talking about heinous things. I'll grant that it's a pretty tall order to forgive the person who raped you or molested your child. But what about revenge for just being a jerk?

[sahyo]

I'll grant that it's a pretty tall order to forgive the person who raped you or molested your child.



labels?

[Common Sense]

I'll try to follow Asheera's astute contribution.

I think revenge implies the need to cause suffering on the person who wronged you. This goes beyond the idea of justice.
We're talking about revenge for certain kinds of acts, acts can be expected to severely psychologically harm the individual. I think this is why 'someone torturing your child to death' has been the paradigm. We've also been talking about it as if the culprit isn't legally dealt with. But even if the law does catch up to him, then there will be the case of whether the legal punishment fit the crime. If the guy gets off in a year on some technicality, then I think revenge might be needed.

Revenge because someone was a jerk to you? No, I think the operative thing is that we're only advocating revenge for acts that 'we'd expect severe psychological harm' to come to you and does come to you. It doesn't matter whether just severe psychological harm does come to you because of some slight, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about acts that we'd expect that reaction, not just that reaction. So, no, I don't think we'd warrant revenge for a slight. But even if we did, the revenge would have to merit the crime -- perhaps a slight in return.

As for Ronagon's case, I think he's perfectly justified in reacting to his ex the way he did. He told her exactly what he was thinking, and I find it difficult to say he's wrong in thinking it. He decided not to help a known liar and leach, so, again, I find nothing to fault him about. That might have been his revenge on her, but if you knew what he knew, might not you have done the same? Well, we might not have said what he said, but certainly we'd have thought similarly of her. So his revenge was in saying what he said, more than in not helping her. And if this is all he did to satisfy himself of her wrongs against him, then I think there's little to fault him for, if anything at all.

[Ronagon]

I think revenge implies the need to cause suffering on the person who wronged you. This goes beyond the idea of justice.
Well then, the answer is simple: your definition of justice is a bogus concept.

The whole point of revenge is to force empathy on a smug, sub-human piece of shit who did what they did to you, because they have no concept of what it means to suffer in the respect that they made you suffer.

To them, it was just "feel-good fun", because they weren't having to experience the helpless, receiving end of things. To you, however, it was humiliating and unbearable.

There is an ancient adage from Bion, which says that "Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest".

In other words, "I can't believe that something I did, which felt so good to do, could be so bad!" Apparently the enjoyability factor makes the whole situation seem "a good thing" on the part of the perpetrator, and the perpetrator also attributes this feeling of enjoyability to his or her victim, which is the fundamental error. It's the morality of a child, and the frequent mind-set of most so-called "adults" in these days of New Rome.

Amazingly, many perpetrators actually are outraged that their victims have such a "problem" with what was done to them, for long periods after the fact... The perps tend to smile and laugh or get "morally" outraged and declare, "Jeez, what's with this person? It wasn't that bad! Heck, I don't even remember it! Can't they get a life?" At the same time, the victims bear the victimization as a forever indictment of their weakness and inferiority that stays with them for long periods.

Social psychologist Roy Baumeister calls this discrepancy between how perpetrators and victims are affected by these incidents, "the magnitude gap", although I would call it a chasm... because there is most definitely a chasm that separates what is felt on both sides, in terms of the magnitude of pain of the event: For one side, it was pure, digestible pleasure... consumed, enjoyed, and forgotten. For the other side, it was a haunting trauma.

The profound morality of revenge, then, is that it educates the conceited and oblivious as to what suffering feels like, and informs them that there is a price to be paid for every cruel pleasure they enjoy... in addition, it re-empowers the victim's resultant feelings of helplessness and inferiority to the perpetrator and all those who mocked and sided against the victim.

You see, revenge is really "paying your bills"... with compounding interest due at time of payment.

And so, if it's time to pay your bills, do not whine and try to howl about how you're being "harrassed"... that just adds on penalty charges. Just accept that you took possession of a good or service, and it must now be paid for. And if you like, you may throw yourself on the mercy of those you owe, and beg for debt forgiveness.

However, whether or not they forgive your debt, is completely up to them.

We as a society need to understand the importance of this process, and not obstruct this healthy and natural process, with all of this cowardly and sneaky Christian bull-shit, which is too often invoked by deliberately rotten low-lifes, to enjoy a free ride of evil on the backs of honorable society.

[sahyo]

:)

dowalker : revenge implies the need to cause suffering on the person who wronged you.

yes when people imagine-believe as though there is a someone-"person" which can as though right-"wrong"

[Ronagon]

As for Ronagon's case, I think he's perfectly justified in reacting to his ex the way he did. He told her exactly what he was thinking, and I find it difficult to say he's wrong in thinking it. He decided not to help a known liar and leach, so, again, I find nothing to fault him about. That might have been his revenge on her, but if you knew what he knew, might not you have done the same? Well, we might not have said what he said, but certainly we'd have thought similarly of her. So his revenge was in saying what he said, more than in not helping her. And if this is all he did to satisfy himself of her wrongs against him, then I think there's little to fault him for, if anything at all.

Thank you for that.

You are one of probably less than a handful of people over the years who has actually chosen to give me my fair due regarding this matter.

Again, thank you.

[sahyo]

The whole point of revenge is to force empathy



not possible "force empthy"


on a smug, sub-human piece of shit who did what they did to you, because they have no concept of what it means to suffer in the respect that they made you suffer.



:lol:



:hug:

[venom mama]

:twoguns:

[sahyo]

" :lol: "
wasn't agreeing:


on a smug, sub-human piece of shit who did what they did to you, because they have no concept of what it means to suffer in the respect that they made you suffer.

[Common Sense]

Emoticons, poor grammar, hollow replies, and absurd comments -- is this what passes off as philosophy here?

Ronagon, you're welcome.

I'm not condemning everyone here, of course, but if everyone is letting this stuff slide, then why doesn't everyone deserve some kind of admonishment?

Any forum's worth is measured by the contributions of its members. What's being allowed to masquerade as philosophy here is bad enough, but what's being allowed to pass off as an adequate post is damning. If people would be more humble about what they supposedly know, then they should let people who have some understanding dominate the forum. Ask conscientious questions if you're confused. But to litter this forum with worthless post after worthless post (I'm talking about you, Asheera, but not only you) is to curse us all with your egomaniacal prattle.

What happened to keeping quiet about things you know little about?--Has that gone out of fashion? The breadth of knowledge here is just amazing. People post in every forum on every topic. If this is a ladies parlor, then excuse me for barging in. But if this is a philosophy forum, then what are the majority of you doing talking?

(closes his biography of Wittgenstein and steps off the podium)

Thank you for your time.

[Ronagon]

*cheers for Common*

Are you an Objectivist?

[Common Sense]

If by "objectivist" you mean that I don't think the truth is relative, then yes.

[venom mama]

the egg industry has no "use" for male chicks since they don't lay eggs or grow large and fast enough to be used for meat. male chicks born at hatcheries that produce laying hens are literally thrown away. the chicks are suffocated in plastic bags, tossed into dumpsters to die, crushed to death, or ground up alive.







unwanted by dairy producers, male calves are taken from their mothers just hours after they are born. some are slaughtered at just a few days old, while others are sent to factory farms where they spend short, miserable lives in intense confinement for veal production. veal calves are raised for 18 to 20 weeks in individual crates so small they cannot lie down comfortably or turn around. they are tethered by the neck to prevent movement and fed a liquid diet deficient in iron and fiber to create the anemic flesh sold as "milk-fed", "white", or "fancy" veal. the young calves suffer extreme discomfort, stress and disease. sick and dying calves are a common sight at veal farms and calves to sick to walk are dragged to slaughter by their legs, ears or tails.






:(


awful

[Ronagon]

venomgirl,

Thanks for bringing that up... That's another reason that I avoid eating meat whenever possible.

Apparently, meat isn't just murder... it's sadistic torture and a depraved indifference to suffering, too.

[NeverMind]

But it tastes like heaven!
And is an excellent source of protein.

[venom mama]

ronagon......you're welcome
the animals thank you



nevermind.......... :reallysad:





:peace:

[beesting42]

What's the most awful thing you can imagine? It could be a punishment or whatever... But what is it?

this is an accurate description of what humans do all throughout their lives, even while sleeping.

[DoWalker]

The whole point of revenge is to force empathy on a smug, sub-human piece of shit who did what they did to you, because they have no concept of what it means to suffer in the respect that they made you suffer.


Teaching someone empathy is a noble goal. I have to agree with asheera, though -- it's impossible to teach someone empathy through violence.

Take the bully's position, for a moment. Your father beat your mother last night, and you take out your aggression on the smaller child at the bus stop. A week later, that child hits you from behind with a bat. Do you now think to yourself "My, I certainly regret hurting that other child. When this lump goes down, I'll try to make peace with him."?

No. Perhaps you avoid attacking him again out of fear of reprisal, but this is not empathy. Likely, you're angry at the child, and vow revenge. Now it's become a cycle.

What would be best is if your father didn't beat your mother. Barring that, at least you could avoid taking it out on that smaller child. Barring THAT, the smaller child could have fought back, and the immediacy of the counterattack would make it effective -- not to teach empathy, but at least to protect the safety of the smaller child.

Hold people responsible for their actions, yes, and try to teach them empathy. But they won't learn when they're angry, afraid, or in pain -- at those times, the brain dampens our ability to empathize, as evidenced by Ronagon's attack on his Ex -- he lashed out because he was still in pain. If he had empathy for this woman with a fatal illness, he might have been able to forgive her for the past.

[NeverMind]

I very much enjoy the taste.
Eating far inferior life forms does not sain my conscience.
Meat tastes good.
Jesus ate meat!

[DoWalker]

Yeah, and here's where I show that I'm not a very good buddhist -- I eat meat, too, and I see little wrong with the practice. The body works well with plenty of protein, particularly the brain. Also, it's pretty obvious that we evolved to be omnivorous. Eating meat is a natural thing for humans to do. If I were a wolf, I would subsist on meat, and this would not be wrong. If I were a deer, I would subsist on vegetation, and this would not be wrong either. I'm a human, so I eat many things.

We Americans probably eat too much meat, and I certainly am against specific animal cruelty, (such as the veal example from before,) but as a rule, it's not bad.

[venom mama]

then eat your meat. that is not where the problem lies. the problem is how much animals suffer to become food for you. have you ever heard a cow scream after her throat was slit and her trachea ripped out? then hung upside by their hind legs, while it takes at least 10 minutes, usually longer for them to die. have you ever seen the look in their eyes? these animals suffer greatly for you and you never give it a second thought. if you hunt fine, make you're kill with a shot that you know will take down your prey quickly. but factory farming and the entire meat industry involves so much pain and horror that i wish i could make you understand. i have seen it first hand. i have seen animals driven insane by pain and agony. pigs are so smart it's amazing, i have a pig. a huge 800 pound hog that is so intelligant it blows my mind. pigs for slaughter on factory farms live on concrete slabs in metal bar pens that they cannot even turn around in. they lose their minds. they rock from side to side, they get a light in their eyes that glow with pure madness. then they are crowded into trucks, stuffed together, thirsty, to go to slaughter. the slaughter house is a nightmare filled with screams and blood. these animals also suffer abuse from factory workers, there are so many documented cases of unbelievable tortures that go on because of sick bastards who just have no compassion what so ever .





if you want to eat meat then go ahead. but the animals that you consume live horribly, die slowly, suffer greatly and know only misery.




go watch. go check it out for yourself. at least respect the animals enough to know what they go through for you.





:angry:

[Ronagon]

Hold people responsible for their actions, yes, and try to teach them empathy. But they won't learn when they're angry, afraid, or in pain -- at those times, the brain dampens our ability to empathize, as evidenced by Ronagon's attack on his Ex -- he lashed out because he was still in pain. If he had empathy for this woman with a fatal illness, he might have been able to forgive her for the past.

The fact that she was ill doesn't retroactively mean that there is suddenly a decent excuse for her previous actions.

In many ways, her own arrogance led to her developing cancer. In many ways, I had tried to stop her. In many ways, I refuse to be dragged around emotionally by somebody who assumes no responsbility for their own lives, even when I try to help.

It's good people like me who are expected to carry everything, and it's bad people who are supposed to be "carried" by those of us who are responsible. Well, for once, Atlas has shrugged, and I couldn't be happier. This is what happens when you take good people for granted, and take a hot, steaming dump on them.

[NeverMind]

This probably doesn't have awhole lot to do with the direct topic, but that made me think about my view on abortion. I am pro-choice, but I easily see either point. I find that nobody should ever be in the position where they would need to get an abortion. Having unprotected sex is an irresponsible thing to do and if you do, you should be able to accept the consequences. However, there are times when circumstances are beyond the female's control.

Back to the topic at hand:
I have been supported by others my entire life. I am a bad person. But, living a cushy life as I have for its first 16 years, I have become accustomed to it. I will probably be mooching off of others for my entire life as a result.

Hey guess what!? I have depression! YAY!

[venom mama]

Originally posted by NeverMind@Feb 17 2005, 06:15 AM

I have been supported by others my entire life. I am a bad person. But, living a cushy life as I have for its first 16 years, I have become accustomed to it. I will probably be mooching off of others for my entire life as a result.

Hey guess what!? I have depression! YAY!
why would you be mooching off of others your entire life? no desire for college and a future doing what you want when you want too? college is the most fun you'll ever have in your life and afterwards when you are completely independent will be the happiest you'll ever be. why would you want anything less?

as for being depressed, well, cheer the hell up. stop feeling sorry for yourself. if you want something to be sad about go do charity work at a hospice or shelter. if you're looking for grief at least be trying to make something postive of it. don't wallow in self pity or so called depression. be better than that.


you're a bad person? you're choice.

[DoWalker]

if you want to eat meat then go ahead. but the animals that you consume live horribly, die slowly, suffer greatly and know only misery

This disturbs me. Do you have a reputable source for me to check out? I had heard that beef cattle were killed by an air-compressed nail to the base of the skull -- immediate and painless.

You have an 800lb. hog? And you're not a farmer?

And why exactly were you watching these slaughters? Did you grow up on a farm? Where does all of this firsthand knowledge come from?

[sahyo]

here's one site, sweeting:

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/index.html


perhaps scroll all the way down any section viewed
since the first photos not so revealing

[sahyo]

though the comments on the site emotional
and religion biased, are the photos which show

[DoWalker]

though the comments on the site emotional
and religion biased, are the photos which show

Anything less biased? I want to be sure that truly brutal practices are going on in America before I take action -- many of these photos were foreign. If it's 100%USDA, have these animals been treated more humanely?

[sahyo]

Anything less biased

the photos not biased

I want to be sure that truly brutal practices are going on in America before I take action -- many of these photos were foreign.

many were taken usa

:)

[venom mama]

go to peta. org

farmsanctuary.org

look around, there are many different things to check out

at peta.com try and find the meet your meat video




as for usda, well, that's how i know what i do. my senior year of college i worked 6 months as an assistant to an inspector for the georgia usda. we inspected stock yards, slaughter houses, chicken houses and factory farms.


did you know that animals used for meat are not protected under the animal protection act?


no rights, they have no rights.
we are the only voice they have.

[venom mama]

i looked at the pictures from the site asheera gave and yes that is exactly what happens here in the usa.

did you look at the pig pictures? did you see the way they spend their ENTIRE lives? babies born there, suffer there, knowing no happiness. only pain and isolation.


that is exactly the way the meat industry works.

i don't know why you thought they were only foreign pictures.


right now, this very moment, those sufferings are going on.
every day.

i don't understand why such misery would be allowed.
it makes my heart ache when i think to much about it. that living, thinking creatures go through what they do. such agonies. it makes me just want to weep.


and to tell you the truth i do. it haunts you..........

[venom mama]

i would very much like to thank asheera for posting that site.


i looked at the pictures of the dogs being raised for food in korea, at the dog market.

i knew that they considered the meat to be better if it was adrenaline rushed. i knew they burnt the dogs alive, beat them to death or even boiled them alive to get them that way.

isn't it crazy? i mean they deliberatly cause as much pain as possible because they think it makes the meat taste better.


it makes me burn with rage.





why are we so cruel? why? why the hell are we like this?



I DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

[Ronagon]

venomgirl,

Why are so many people sadists?

Well, I suppose that people who fear being helpless and tormented, inflict nightmarish cruelty upon easy targets in an effort to feel distanced from the unbearable role of victim... On some level, all who have had experience being victims, tend to envy the position of victimizer.

Being a victimizer gives one a rush of calming self-assurance that they can indeed themselves have the power of a god at their own immediate fingertips.

And so, maybe such people have previously been victims themselves...

OR, perhaps such people are just incredibly spoiled and bored and have never really known torment, but are too terrified of the idea of experiencing it themselves, and so they attempt to experience it vicariously (and cowardfully) through those they intentionally engineer to suffer visibly, so they can watch in curious entertainment and laugh in celebratory relief at their enviable distance from such a position of unimaginable suffering.

And no, "adrenalin rushed" meat has no different flavor... That's just a plausible-sounding excuse that these people make up in a desperate attempt to make themselves seem to be not mentally disturbed psychotics, but instead, connoiseurs of taste and refinement.

And one last thing: Unless YOU are one of these kinds of people, you're not being fair when you ask, "Why are WE so cruel?"

Don't take on blame that you haven't earned... Let those who have actually earned the blame, be blamed alone.

[sahyo]

i would very much like to thank asheera for posting that site.



thanking




my senior year of college i worked 6 months as an assistant to an inspector for the georgia usda. we inspected stock yards, slaughter houses, chicken houses and factory farms.




i looked at the pictures from the site asheera gave and yes that is exactly what happens here in the usa.



thanks informing




it makes me just want to weep.


and to tell you the truth i do. it haunts you..........



:hug:

[venom mama]

i would like to ask everyone to please go to peta.org and watch the video of the chinese fur farm.

it's right there on the front page when you go. click onto it and scroll down to where it says watch video.




the workers pull the animals out of their cages by the tail and slam their heads into the ground. it only stuns them. they then proceed to SKIN THE ANIMALS ALIVE.


there is one racoon who after being skinned and is thrown onto the pile of other bodies still is able to look up into the camera. he's gasping in agony and pain.



what is wrong with these people? they don't even care. as the animals are kicking the people just continue to cut through them.




THE HELL I WOULD SEND THESE PEOPLE TO, THEY'D GET THEIRS. NO DOUBT.

:angry:

[venom mama]

meetyourmeat.com

[sahyo]

thanking posting the links vgirl
but can't the videos since using win95b

:)

[Ronagon]

venomgirl,

I agree with you... The way that animals are treated, is beyond nightmarish. There are very callous and sadistic people in the world, who deserve to be systematically eradicted as the malignant tumors that they are.

Animals are intelligent... Their brains make predictions about their environment and the behavior of other creatures around them. The extent of their predictions may not rival ours, but it does exist.

Animal meat acidifies the body, causing disease... there is no valid argument that animals must even be killed for food.

Killing animals in anything other than self-defense is murder.

[venom mama]

i wish we could make others understand about the animals ronagon.......



ronagon
at first when you wrote about vengence and revenge i didn't quite get it, i couldn't imagine wanting something bad to happen to someone. but then i realized something. when something happens to bad people they're just getting what they deserve.



i don't know if it's really seeking revenge or vengence.......but cruel people should be punished. someone who lives to create pain in others, who rips skins off of living creatures backs, something has to be done about them.

i'll tell ya'll after watching that chinese fur farm video i can't get it out of my mind. i keep seeing that racoon look up into the camera without his skin, just gasping, and it makes me crazy. i mean i've seen animal abuse before but that just makes my heart and soul ache beyond belief.


i wish.........


:peace:

[DoWalker]

Well, I've been swayed to more inquiries, at least.

I'm still not sold on the idea that eating meat is psychotic, as Ronagon says, because you'd be hard-pressed to call an omnivorous Grizzly Bear psychotic; it's just behaving the way it is natural for a Grizzly to behave.

Humans evolved naturally to be omnivorous. Our brains need a lot of protein to develop fully. Vegans have a hard time getting enough protein. (In the interest of keeping this an intellectual debate, I'll forgo the obvious opportunity here.)

Also, I know that migrant fruit and vegetable pickers are subjected to inhumane treatment and living conditions here in the US. While I will give my support and vote to those who work towards improving these conditions, I'll not give up fruits and vegetables.

I want to eat a balanced diet, while condemning the practices we've been discussing. I'd love to be told of an organization I could support that works to end animal cruelty and suffering that won't castigate me for choosing to remain an omnivore. Anyone?

[venom mama]

the only way to stop meat industry and factory farming animal abuse is to stop being a part of it.


you can get plenty of protein from other foods. nuts, pasta, peanut butter, beans. the average person only needs about 25 grams of protien per meal. easy to get. i am very healthy. i'm also very athletic. you'd be surprised how many pro athletes are vegetarians. you do not need to consume flesh to be in top physical condition.






there is a big difference between us and the grizzly. we don't have to eat meat to survive.
a bear goes through alot to get it's meals. you want to eat meat and not contribute to what happens to cows,chickens,pigs,etc.? then hunt, learn how to shoot and make your kill with one shot that you know kills it instantly. if you don't consider yourself a "killer",well why not? if you eat what others kill,knowing the suffering involved, doesn't that make you some kind of accomplice?


it's your choice. at least you know what happens to make that steak on your plate. or how many baby male chicks ended up struggling for life after being thrown into a dumpster because they were "no good" to the egg factory, when you eat you omlet.



you know.


what else is there to say?

[Ronagon]

Humans evolved naturally to be omnivorous. Our brains need a lot of protein to develop fully. Vegans have a hard time getting enough protein. (In the interest of keeping this an intellectual debate, I'll forgo the obvious opportunity here.)

I'd like to respond to this...

First of all, all the amino acids that a person needs to function properly, can be found in various plants... But not just any vegetable. Corn and mushrooms are terrible things to eat, for example.

I have seen the "omnivore" argument applied to humans, because chimpanzees hunt and kill other animals. However, the chimpanzees that do this are males, and they typically hunt in packs, as a form of cruel recreation, which is linked to their masculine dominance drive.

Let's not confuse brain hardware with digestive requirements. Much of the human brain still possesses whatever sadistic brain circuitry that is an asset to true carnivores like cats and wolves, which would not be motivated to chase and pursue the much-needed living prey which forms their diet... And their digestive tracts are very short and filled with more aggressive biotic organisms, compared to humans and other herbivores, which require longer passage times to break down the more durable plant materials.

The best arguments I've ever read against meat-eating, has been made in a series of books called THE PH MIRACLE, by Robert Young... He explains that optimal health is maintained by a properly balanced acid-base diet, and which foods maintain that balance, and in what amounts... and meat is definitely not good for the body.

[todd]

being born ...