Humans Vs Animals

[jesupocaplypse]

A disscussion with the Ferret got me to thinking about this some more. There are many differences between humans and animals, but there are also many similarities. However, this could be said of just about anything.

Quite often i hear/read people proclaiming "_____ is what seperates us from the animals."
Half the time, the person is full of shite, and (the blank) only unites us with them. But of course, the other half are generally right.

Personally I believe all living creatures are sentient, just to different degrees. While most animals are signifigantly Simpler than us, that doesn't make them Lesser.

SO, I would like anyone's opinion and ideas into this...
**
Feelings and Emotions...

Art and Material Creation...

Speech and Communication...

Thought and Self Awareness...

Social Behavior... (This more than any others has the Least difference IMO)

etc.

[jesupocaplypse]

Instinct is another thing to compare between "man and beast"

[sahyo]

While most animals are signifigantly Simpler than us



are animals simpler? :)

[jesupocaplypse]

you don't see animals complaining about how complex and dumb their mating rituals are do you? (or maybe we just don't catch on when they do...)

animals Are simpler, and IMO, that's better. "everyone" always seems to yearn for the good old days, when life was simpler...

eat sleep mate and play. this is the life of animals. simple, and fantastic.
Of course, physiologically speaking, they are no more simpler/complex than we are... but socially.... hmmm well maybe, perhaps the 'complexity' of human existance compared to animal life, is just a futile attempt to hide from what we are, kinda like emotional materialism. mmmmaybe. :think:

animals arn't destroying the world they live in, pooping in their own nest, so to speak. we are.
animals don't try to find ways to wipe out large groups of their own kind in one go, we do.
If you take the word 'simple' as a insult, in it's derogatory sense, as in simple minded.... I think WE are simpler: animals don't need to philosophise, they already got it all figured out!

but in the positive sense of the word, as i originally meant it... nay, Neutral sense of the word, I want to leave good/bad judgements out of this, because that's silly. It's all good. just a neutral comparison.... if a cottage in the mountains is a simpler life than an apartment in downtown metropolis, than an animal life is indeed, Much more simpler.


Are animals simpler? I dunno Asheera, you tell me... :huh: :)

I can hear my thoughts anytime... i post here, because i want to hear YOUR thoughts...

[venom mama]

we are animals. by thinking we are anything more we are only fooling ourselves. survival of the fittest, natural selection. we try to bypass all that by coming up with cures for disease and such but then we just become overpopulated and have wars. we are just a part of the natural process. we have no more control of the universe than the elephants or lions. we just adapt to our enviornment better.

and then we destroy it.

[jesupocaplypse]

Oh no we most certainly DO NOT adapt to our enviorment better. We adapt our enviorment to US better. If we adapted to our enviorment at all, we wouldn't have to cut down forests to build fake caves for ourselves, we wouldn't need to pave over fields and dam water ways. We wouldn't need to change anything but ourselves. Quite the opposite, we are weakening and devolving while we become more and more dependant upon our creations, that without them, few of us could even survive let alone prosper.

Animals adapt to their enviorment as it is. they find balance within. We, like locusts, consume and move on. Now we consume, with no where to move on to... soon we will eat ourselves to death.

We do not adapt, but destroy/create our enviroment to adapt to us.

[Nick_A]

I would say that man is an animal with the possibility of being more. This possibility is what separates man from pure animal.

Feelings and Emotions...

All animals have instinct and ability for movement. Higher animals have emotion and our emotions are the same as higher animals. However man has the ability to experience "feeling" which is a quality of higher emotion beyond what is capable for a horse for example.

Art and Material Creation...

All animals rearrange matter for eating, nest building etc. A big difference between man and animals is that man can lie. This ability to lie manifests itself in something called "art". Man also has the potential for "Art" which is the transmission of deeper truths beyond associative reason.

Speech and Communication...

Being that an animal doesn't lie, its speech is limited. I believe that man has the capacity for associative thought and speech to reflect this thinking. However, considering man's ability to lie, how much of it is of value is another question.

Thought and Self Awareness...

Man can become conscious of himself and I believe this is the beginning of man's evolution to becoming more than just animal. The animal is complete in its evolution so lacks higher mind necessary for this evolution.

Social Behavior... (This more than any others has the Least difference IMO)

Agreed. Man just swears more and drinks more beer. :)

[sahyo]

Being that an animal doesn't lie, its speech is limited.

seems animals not speak-sing?

[venom mama]

Originally posted by jesupocaplypse@Nov 23 2004, 10:50 AM
Oh no we most certainly DO NOT adapt to our enviorment better. We adapt our enviorment to US better. If we adapted to our enviorment at all, we wouldn't have to cut down forests to build fake caves for ourselves, we wouldn't need to pave over fields and dam water ways. We wouldn't need to change anything but ourselves. Quite the opposite, we are weakening and devolving while we become more and more dependant upon our creations, that without them, few of us could even survive let alone prosper.

Animals adapt to their enviorment as it is. they find balance within. We, like locusts, consume and move on. Now we consume, with no where to move on to... soon we will eat ourselves to death.

We do not adapt, but destroy/create our enviroment to adapt to us.
animals adapt their enviornment. birds make nests, beavers build dams, dogs dig.

what about ants? they build.

the only thing different about us is the materials we use.

[jesupocaplypse]

hmmm... maybe i lost myself, Animals adapt to their enviorment, yes,. In one way or another, with varying degrees of effect, they also adapt their enviorment to them. Little change here, a little change there, uh huh. Everythings always changing everywhere, all the time. agreed.

Humans on the other hand, do so, to greater extremes. We Radically alter the world around us, quite carelessly and drastically, with little to no regard for consequences.
........

Is Man the only creature with the possibility for more? Assuming that humans don't wipe them out before they get the chance, where or what will Tigers become in the next 1000 years? Or Dolphins or Whales, or Bears? even Ants for that matter. People too often make the mistake of measuring everything with human standards. Forget humans, and measure the Tiger on it's own... from it's beginning to now, how has it progressed? Where will it go next? Everything has the possibility for more. Even a rock, with the right circumstances could become more. Coal could become diamond.

"All animals have instinct and ability for movement. Higher animals have emotion and our emotions are the same as higher animals. However man has the ability to experience "feeling" which is a quality of higher emotion beyond what is capable for a horse for example."

----How do you know this? How do you know what an animal can or cannot feel? Ever watched a mother cat deal with a stillborn litter? I have. Nothing anyone can say can prove that that cat had any less feelings than I. That cat was spiritually hurt. Her emotions and behavior changed drastically that day. I've heard the answer before: It's just the neuro and bio chemicals, hormones and such inside the cat got messed up. But the same can be said of anything for humans too. it's all just chemical reactions. eh, so is the whole bloody universe.

Animals can lie. Unless your meaning of lie is different from mine. Deception is a common ploy of animals. The frog that lies about his poisonous skin, via color, to keep birds away... the angler fish with it's lure... camoflauge is in a sense, a lie. Animals mark their territory with scents and scratchings, and leavings.... Is that really much different than what humans do? just on a bigger scale... and with artifical materials...?

I watched a discovery channel show, in which it showcased a tiny little fish, that would spend nearly all it's time building a home, a shelter, decorating it, and making it as "appealing" to the females as he could, trying to outdo the others of it's kind, then if he impressed the female with his creation and a strange a 'dance', she would come home and mate with him, filling the house with eggs, and leaving him to look after them. Or what about that bird, can't remember a name... that collects every bit of Blue material he can to decorate his nest, and attract females?

There's something almost artistic, and definately revealing of deeper truths, in the way my cat falls over, stretches, and sleeps in a sun beam on the floor... art in every footstep.

Who knows what the crows are laughing to each other about? What are the Cetaceans singing about? The tomcat howling his tale of woe into the dark night... Speech isn't the only form of communication, and it is IMO it's one of the crudest forms. a Cat can relay it's intentions with a very subtle nod of the head, or change in posture. Animals don't need words to tell someone they love them.

The animal is complete in it's evolution? That's just silly. That would imply that all animal offspring is no different from it's parents... everything is always changing. humans and animals alike. what if Tigers became Telepathic? how do we know they are not already? or perhaps on their way to becoming telepathic? The enviorment is always changing, and thus so to are it's occupants. To say that something is complete in it's evolution is to say that it is extinct. done.


So then is the difference between Humans and animals; none? Just different degrees, of the same thing? People who claim humans to be "superior" to the rest of life are just self righteous.

[sahyo]

... :D

breath
... breathing
feathering... sing
star... wolfocean howling
still moontweet... hoprabbit wings
quietly purring... typing
breathlessing
... click
clicking
...

[Nick_A]

Hello JP

How do you know this? How do you know what an animal can or cannot feel? Ever watched a mother cat deal with a stillborn litter? I have. Nothing anyone can say can prove that that cat had any less feelings than I. That cat was spiritually hurt. Her emotions and behavior changed drastically that day. I've heard the answer before: It's just the neuro and bio chemicals, hormones and such inside the cat got messed up. But the same can be said of anything for humans too. it's all just chemical reactions. eh, so is the whole bloody universe.

I know what the animal feels since as an animal I feel the same in a similar way. I agree with you that our emotions are on the same level as the higher animals. Sometimes they are more honest than me. :)

Human have the capacity first to receive and experience "feelings" as opposed to the usual animal emotion. It is very rare since its origin is not of the earth. The difference can only be understood through the experience of both.

Animals can lie. Unless your meaning of lie is different from mine. Deception is a common ploy of animals. The frog that lies about his poisonous skin, via color, to keep birds away... the angler fish with it's lure... camoflauge is in a sense, a lie. Animals mark their territory with scents and scratchings, and leavings.... Is that really much different than what humans do? just on a bigger scale... and with artifical materials...?

This deception is not a lie. I guess it would have been better if I had said that animals do not lie to themselves. The kind of deception that animals use is not artificial or unnatural..it is natural. Man made lies and self deception are the results of some sort of false pride and/or vanity. Animals do not suffer from either of these traits. There is a difference between pride of self which is just the acknowledgement if isness, and self pride which justifies ones feelings of importance through imagination.

The animal is complete in it's evolution? That's just silly. That would imply that all animal offspring is no different from it's parents... everything is always changing. humans and animals alike. what if Tigers became Telepathic? how do we know they are not already? or perhaps on their way to becoming telepathic? The enviorment is always changing, and thus so to are it's occupants. To say that something is complete in it's evolution is to say that it is extinct. done.

You are referring to adaptation, in my understanding. Adaptation is this continual process of gradual change in its ability to adapt. If tigers display telepathy it is because they have this ability. Higher animals actually are telepathic to an extent. Dogs have been known to sense trouble for their master in advance.

Evolution is something else and I will admit that confusion over this causes endless arguments. Evolution is the change of being itself. If a rock becomes a plant, its being has changed and it has evolved. You don't see it happening because plants and rocks are in the completed stage of their evolution. Animals are like this because they are not made "in the image" so to speak or having the necessary makeup to create inner unity in themselves. They continually adapt in the process of serving the needs of the ever changing earth. Man is made in such a way that his being itself can change. This is evolution

[NeverMind]

They talk about that in Waking Life.
That movie made me want to barf.

[sahyo]

Animals are like this because they are not made "in the image" so to speak or having the necessary makeup to create inner unity in themselves.

"unity" only an idea that idea 'not unity' is happening

:P hehe

;)

:D

[sahyo]

Human have the capacity first to receive and experience "feelings" as opposed to the usual animal emotion. '

not "receive"....not "opposed"


It is very rare since its origin is not of the earth.

not "not of the earth"

[jesupocaplypse]

ah ah ha. mm hmm. uh huh. yep. good good.

Still, I've met and known and seen and observed many people who were far less sentient, than my cats are.



a room mate of mine from long ago, her guniea pig was more mentally advanced than she was. (you think i'm joking but i'm not)

[Nick_A]

a room mate of mine from long ago, her guniea pig was more mentally advanced than she was. (you think i'm joking but i'm not)

This is really an ancient observation and IMO with a good deal of truth. Consider:

Matthew 6
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[1] ?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

The "clothes" here of course refers to our reliance on our opinions of ourselves, our egotism. The lily is greater since its outide reflects its inside or its purpose. We have come to the point where we are unable to do this since we get in our own way. This is a loss of real intelligence. This real intelligence has been replaced by imagination.

[NeverMind]

I prefer my imagination most of the time. But thats just me.

[jesupocaplypse]

nick seems to be implying judgements.... as in one being better/worse than another....

intellect or imagination??

I'll have a double order of both please... with a side of fries, and a strawberry milkshake thanks. ;)

[Nick_A]

Hmmm.....Be careful how you mix cocktails. It can lead to all sorts of distress. :)

[NeverMind]

In general, I prefer creativity and imagination to intelligence. To some degree they go hand-in-hand. I prefer the ability to paint and draw and write and create to the ability to think and ponder and solve problems.

[beesting42]

:blink: whoa... humans ARE animals.

[CSwriter1]

Idea- humans can work together in comparatively large numbers, but what of other animals? How many birds work together to build a nest? How many beaver work together to build a dam? Dogs work together in packs to bring down prey, but in what other ways do they work togther? Primates work together to protect each other, but in what other ways do they work together? In how many ways do humans work together? Might this have something to do with the development of the human brain?

By the way, I like the way Chardin explained things, God is asleep in rocks and minerals; waking up in plants and animals, to know self in man.

Greeks thought we were as the Gods, because we can learn and reason. Animals can also learn, but they are much more specialized in what they can learn. However, when come to primates, there is solid proof they are capable of at least a degree of reason, and even a degree of true abstract language.