Olympic Controversy

[thirst4sun]

For those of you who do not follow the Oympics, Paul Hamm from the USA won the gold in the men's gymnastic all- around competiton because of controversal scoring. Three judges were suspended as a result of this. The error on Wed. cost the bronze medalist Yang-Tae Young of South Korea a tenth of a point that would given him the gold.

In my opinion the olymic committee should do the medal standings over with the correct scoring so Hamm would have the medal taken from him and Hamm would now have the silver.
If I was Hamm I would not want the medal that I did not rightfully win, I would surrender the medal and take the medal I deserve. Isn't the olymics about world peace :peace: ?

[todd]

Paul Hamm won his medal in a public contest and the Olympic Committee should not accept the return of the medal. The judges deliberations are not public and if they realized they made a mistake, they should take responsibility for this and reward the person negatively affected by awarding a second medal.
The fact of the medal awarding is public act, and retracting it will cause an undue distress for the apparent winner.
If this kind of retracts will be allowed, the award of the medals should be delayed until all the contestations will be solved, but this will lead to the dissolution of the public interest.
I personally consider that Paul Hamm jump in that contest was disastrous, and the 9.180 mark was highly exaggerated. A gold medal with such a failure was never previously seen in a gymnastic contest at this level and I think he was the subject of an unfair favoritism and this were the public condemnation came from.

[sonrisa]

ok. If Hamm won the gold & Young won the bronze, then who won the silver, & shouldn't that person get the gold? Why should Young jump from bronze to gold?

[thirst4sun]

Sonrisa_ To first answer your first question, Yang Wei of China won the silver.
Hamm won Wednesday night's meet with a score of 57.823, 0.012 points better than South Korea's Kim Dae-eun in the closest all-around finish in Olympic history. Yang finished third with a score of 57.774.

South Korea's gymnastics federation complained because Yang's parallel bars routine received a start value of 10 in team preliminaries and finals, but only a 9.9 for the same set in the all-around.

Had Yang received the extra tenth of a point, he would have finished first.

If the olympic federation changed the medal standings with the correct scores, this would leave Young with gold, Hamm with silver, and Wei with bronze.

If the federation leaves the standings as is , then this is unfair to Young because he deserves the gold.

[slayer]

Why am I not surprised to see the facts misrepresented yet again. This will explain all your wrong opinions.

First of all, Yang, the bronze Korean, received a higher score than he deserved, because he had four holds in his parallel bars routine, when you're only allowed three. But the judges missed the extra hold, and they didn't deduct the required .20 from his score. So, if you're talking about a perfect world where human error is factored out, then Yang's overall score should be .10 less than it currently is, and not .10 more. This would put him exactly where he belongs...in third place.

Second, the Koreans filed their protest late, so there was no chance, given the rules, for the correction regarding the start-value (we'll not mention the extra hold deduction) to be changed. Then why the hell did the Koreans make the protest? All it did was cause Paul Hamm turmoil, when there was officially nothing to be done about the score. Of course it turns out that the Korean deserved a lower score, to the Koreans' chagrin.

Paul Hamm thus deserves his gold medal. It would be nice if his character and achievement weren't belittled by all of your collective stupidities.

Have a nice day.

[thirst4sun]

[QUOTE]Why am I not surprised to see the facts misrepresented yet again. This will explain all your wrong opinions
Slayer................ Here is an artical from the Detroit News, I think the facts that you posted are misrepresented. Ok, here's the artical;
Controversy has tarnished Hamm's gold in all-around


By Lynn Henning / The Detroit News



Gymnastics controversy

How should the controversy over Paul Hamm's all-around gold medal be resolved?

Let the matter stand as it is.

ATHENS, Greece--Tainted. What a lousy word it is. Tainted means something has been — if not outright ruined — compromised, lessened, diminished.

Sorry, Paul Hamm. But that Olympics all-around men’s gymnastics gold medal you won is less lustrous, less regal, than when it went around your neck Tuesday night.

It has to do with a flap over judging — apparently, these frays are mandatory at each Olympics — which earned suspensions for three of the judges who were part of the men’s overall competition.

South Korea is upset because its gymnast, Yang Tae-young, finished with a bronze medal when — had proper start value been credited to him — he would have received an extra one-tenth of a point and beaten Hamm to take gold.

The issue over start value breaks down accordingly:

A gymnast putting together a routine decides on a particular mix of elements, stunts, etc., that carries with it a certain value. The higher the start value, the greater the risk-reward dividends can be. Judges then take care to make sure everything the gymnast said was going to be in the routine was, in fact, there.

That’s where the fight centers. The South Koreans say Yang’s start value on the parallel bars was 10.0. The judges said, at the time, it was 9.9.

Rules specify that, in the event of a disagreement or protest, the grievance must be made no later than one event after the routine in question. The South Koreans say they alerted the judges to the discrepancy when it was discovered and got the run-around.

That’s where everything now hangs — on arguments over procedure. And had procedure not been an issue, you can argue convincingly Yang would have won the gold medal. Replays have confirmed as much, which is why three judges are being suspended.

Hamm and his U.S. cohorts argue that all kinds of variables exist in any gymnastics performance. It thus makes any after-the-fact review a ripping-open of Pandora’s box. It also explains why the United States on Sunday night was charging Yang with missed holds during his parallel bars venture.

“If they’re going to review for one thing, they need to review for all things,” said Ron Gallimore, the U.S. men’s team coordinator. “He (Yang) stopped four times and you’re only allowed three. They should have deducted two-tenths of a point.”

The problem with Gallimore’s explanation is that South Korea’s beef has nothing to do with technical or artistic matters, which, in so many cases — even this one — are somewhat subjective.

This is a he-said, she-said matter. It’s about when something happened.

The United States was ready there, as well. The U.S. team protested start values on two gymnasts last week, Brett McClure and Jason Gatson.

“We didn’t get the answer we wanted,” Gallimore said, “but we turned it in at the proper time. The Koreans did the same thing the day before. They knew how to do it.”

No one from South Korea has suggested they didn’t know how to file their protest. They claim they were given a lot of double-talk that prevented their protest from ever being properly acknowledged.

And now we have three judges suspended by the International Gymnastics Federation, which agreed with the South Koreans that one-tenth of a point was excluded from Yang’s score.

“I personally feel I was the champion that night,” Hamm said. “I was incredible.”

Perhaps. But, hey, Paul, think about this for a second. If you really want to be “incredible,” how about sending that gold medal to Yang?


Ok slayer................... :boxing:

[sonrisa]

ah, I see his majestie royal has deigned to pay us une visite. And with his usual bon hommie, of course. :rolleyes:

Thirst4sun- Thanx for kindly explaining the medal situation to me, & for posting the article from the Detroit News

[slayer]

Jesus F-ing Christ, why is it that with all the facts you can still mess up the conclusion!?

First of all, the protest was not filed in time. Koreans grumbling isn't an official protest, so there's nothing to argue about here. And why are you giving the benefit of the doubt as to whether the protest was filed in time to the Koreans and not to the Olympic officials? It's only your bias that makes you lean against Paul Hamm, because he's an American. This is just conspiracy bullshit again, with nothing to support it.

Second, Yang was seeking to correct an error by the judges. That there are these kinds of errors is built into the scoring system. The same applies with football, soccer, etc. -- you just accept that part of the regulation of the sport includes the 'human factor.' Even sports with Instant Reply don't allow all mistakes to be questioned and overturned. But that's neither here nor there, because gymnastics involves the 'human factor', though it does have a method for trying to come as close to infallability as possible, and that's by allowing protests. But the protests must come in a specified time and in a specified manner. And since Yang didn't file the proper procedure, then his score is official. It is the proper score. It might be lamentable that he didn't get started at the proper start-value, but it is also lamentable (to me) that he didn't get deducted the proper points for having FOUR holds in his routine.

And what's this nonsense about the four holds being a matter of he-said/she-said? This is how utterly biased and inconsistent you are. For one, if we're to dismiss the four holds argument because it's about he-said/she-said, then why the hell are you arguing for the Koreans when that too, at best, is a he-said/she-said thing between the Olympic officials and the Korean delegation? The only reason is your anti-American bias. But having FOUR holds is not about he-said/she-said, it's about counting the number of holds -- you know, the thing professional judges are experts at doing. And the experts say that he had FOUR holds. So cease with your subjectivist/relativist drivel, it's nonsense.

And yet -- and yet! -- what you're advocating is that we correct the start-value discrepancy but don't do anything about the FOUR hold discrepancy. How the hell then could you ever charge Paul Hamm of not deserving that gold medal? If we're talking about the proper score everyone SHOULD have gotten, in a world where we can go outside the rules of gymnastics and have the scores reassessed whenever we want, then Paul Hamm would deserve the gold medal, because he would have had the highest overall points.

No, what you want is to make the official, and somehow just, thing be about adding the .10 over the start-value. This is not to my sense of justice. It would be to my sense of fairness if Yang had filed his protest in time, then of course his score should have been raised the .10, while completely ignoring the FOUR holds, if that's part of the regulations -- to ignore all other discrepancies while reviewing another one. And if you're going to allow the Koreans to protest late, then the civilized world can protest about the Korean's four holds NOW, and then you should favor that his score be change -- making Paul Hamm the RIGHTFUL GOLD MEDALIST, as he is. No, you're thus offering a sense of right in that officially it's what WOULD be demanded in case where the Korean follows the proper procedure. Of course he didn't follow the proper procedure, so you should be arguing in Paul Hamm's favor. Your whole argument rests on assuming that the Koreans followed the proper procedure, which is a huge assumption in light of the fact that the Olympic federation says otherwise. So the onus is on the Koreans and you to come up with proof that that's what happened. Otherwise, like I said, this is conspiracy nonsense.

Stop deluding the stupid, which includes yourself and Sonrisa,

slayer

PS. It's not surprising that in every case where it's possible, by some screwed up method of reasoning, to make America or Americans out to be bad guys, then you relativist morons manage to do just that. Your whole sense of arguing is grounded upon the 'America bad' principle. For all your dumb-ass Americans: get over your self-hate, you morons, and stop bad-mouthing my country. My hate for you people is more than enough, so stop hating yourselves, okay?

[sahyo]

Your whole sense of arguing is grounded upon the 'America bad' principle.

perhaps slayer tries seeming grounding, imagining called america as though good?

[sahyo]

My hate for you people is more than enough



congradUlations

[sonrisa]

:D

oh yes, Asheera, congratulations are most certainly due becuz unlike us, his majestie was there, in Athens. Took the gold 2x- 1 for arrogance, & 1 for a-holiness. There was no contoversy about it either, it was a hands down victory. :)

we are not the deluded ones

[sonrisa]

I meant to say that they were both hands down victories. :)

ps, we r not deluded, your majestie, have u checked out your new clothes lately?

[slayer]

Listen, I'm not going to argue facts with you people. The official Olympic record book indicates that no protest was filed before the time the rules allow. PERIOD. If you wish to challenge that, then come up with some proof. Otherwise, you're just whining and promoting some conspiracy nonsense. And it's telling that you're anti-Americans, because it is more reasonable to side with my argument, that Paul Hamm deserves the gold medal, than to hold that he doesn't.

What motivates this bias? Anti-Americanism. It matters not whether you recognize it or name it, it's painfully obvious. I've also diagnosed the disease: relativism.

Now, Asheera, learn to spell "congratulations." Sonrisa, learn to spell "majesty."

Apparently neither of you qualified for the spelling event.

er, gudbie,

slayer

[sahyo]

What motivates this bias? Anti-Americanism

sure bias/anti-americanism?

Now, Asheera, learn to spell "congratulations." Sonrisa, learn to spell "majesty."

perhaps a typo....and if not, is important?

[sahyo]

does seem can win/lose, sla :angry: yer?

[sonrisa]

ok I went to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/translate/text.html) & got the correct spelling. It should be-

we are not deluded your majesté, & have you checked out your new clothes lately?

[thirst4sun]

Originally posted by slayer@Sep 6 2004, 11:53 AM
Listen, I'm not going to argue facts with you people. The official Olympic record book indicates that no protest was filed before the time the rules allow. PERIOD. If you wish to challenge that, then come up with some proof. Otherwise, you're just whining and promoting some conspiracy nonsense. And it's telling that you're anti-Americans, because it is more reasonable to side with my argument, that Paul Hamm deserves the gold medal, than to hold that he doesn't.

What motivates this bias? Anti-Americanism. It matters not whether you recognize it or name it, it's painfully obvious. I've also diagnosed the disease: relativism.

Now, Asheera, learn to spell "congratulations." Sonrisa, learn to spell "majesty."

Apparently neither of you qualified for the spelling event.

er, gudbie,

slayer
:nono: Anti-Americanism?????????????????????? Totally disagree!!! Just because I feel that Hamm does not deserve the Gold medal, Slayer is going to state my comments are Anti-American !!!! I would feel the same if the roles were reversed, such as, Hamm only winning the bronze because of an error from the judges. My point was the Olymics are suppose to bring the countries together. Suggesting Hamm to surrender the medal would be the proper jester to show how American's are strong and try to do the right thing when it is required.
Ok, Slayer, the protest from the Koreans was not made in time, I understand that and I agree with you on that point. If Hamm suggested to re-do the medal standings, Hamm would show the world that American's are proud and strong. In the end I fel Hamm would come out feeling like a true winner by being true to himself and the World.
Trust me Slayer, I love being an American. The Olympic controversy shown at the past Olymics could have given Hamm an opportunity to show the world what he has learned from his country. America is suppose to set the example.

[thirst4sun]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Sep 5 2004, 11:52 PM
:D

oh yes, Asheera, congratulations are most certainly due becuz unlike us, his majestie was there, in Athens. Took the gold 2x- 1 for arrogance, & 1 for a-holiness. There was no contoversy about it either, it was a hands down victory. :)

we are not the deluded ones
:rofl:

[sonrisa]

Anti-Americanism- :shakehead: what a load....


looks like T4S is talking about the American value of fair play, or at least it was an American value once upon a time. She feels that an injustice was done in the final gymnastic scores & the awarding of the medals & that the winner, Paul Hamm, should play fair & be true to himself by giving his medal up. But from what I've read, T4S, it appears that Hamm feels he can be true to himself by keeping the medal.

I have no opinion on this scoring controversy since I didn't see it. But from all that I've read- & that includes your posts- the fault lies with inattentiveness on the part of the judges. Nowhere have I read that Hamm himself had anything to do with fixing the scores. The IOC did their part by suspending the judges. But to ask Hamm to give back the medal is unfair to him, not to mention rude, since they had already awarded it to him. If he gave his best performance & accepted the medal in good faith, then it should be his to do with as he pleases & that includes keeping it.

[thirst4sun]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Sep 10 2004, 09:58 AM
Anti-Americanism- :shakehead: what a load....


looks like T4S is talking about the American value of fair play, or at least it was an American value once upon a time. She feels that an injustice was done in the final gymnastic scores & the awarding of the medals & that the winner, Paul Hamm, should play fair & be true to himself by giving his medal up. But from what I've read, T4S, it appears that Hamm feels he can be true to himself by keeping the medal.

I have no opinion on this scoring controversy since I didn't see it. But from all that I've read- & that includes your posts- the fault lies with inattentiveness on the part of the judges. Nowhere have I read that Hamm himself had anything to do with fixing the scores. The IOC did their part by suspending the judges. But to ask Hamm to give back the medal is unfair to him, not to mention rude, since they had already awarded it to him. If he gave his best performance & accepted the medal in good faith, then it should be his to do with as he pleases & that includes keeping it.
But from what I've read, T4S, it appears that Hamm feels he can be true to himself by keeping the medal.

:applause: Well stated :thumbsup:

[sonrisa]

:) thanx!

[thirst4sun]

Here's something that was posted on yahoo new only 2 hours ago. I found it intersting.


Sports - Reuters


U.S. Gymnast Hamm Will Return Gold if Ordered by Court

2 hours, 8 minutes ago Add Sports - Reuters to My Yahoo!



NEW YORK (Reuters) - Olympic all-round champion Paul Hamm (news - web sites) said on Monday he would return his gold medal if the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) rules a judging error denied South Korea (news - web sites)'s Yang Tae-young the title.


Reuters Photo



"If it is determined by the rules of gymnastics that I should give back my medal I will," said Hamm, during a teleconference at the end of the 12-hour hearing at a hotel near CAS's Lausanne headquarters.


"I thought everything went very smoothly today. It was a very fair hearing and everyone got a chance to say what they thought and we are looking forward to the decision.


"I'm just going to try and forget about it until the decision is made.


"Yang is a great athlete and the dispute doesn't involve his or my actions. I empathize with him and prefer that this could be resolved on the field of play."


In one of the biggest controversies of the Athens Games, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) said Yang should have won the gold but was incorrectly docked a 10th of a point from his parallel bars routine in the final.


The federation suspended three judges but said it had no mechanism to overturn the final standings. Hamm kept the gold medal despite suggestions from the FIG that he should give it to Yang.

[NeverMind]

There is NOTHING more american than stealing from poor nations.
And maybe Chevrolet.