Nick_A
23rd August 2004, 10:55 AM
There is no worse lie than a truth misunderstood by those who hear it." WILLIAM JAMES
A while back I saw faith being pounded pretty good on another site. It was viewed at best as similar to something that is common now which is this idea of creating your own reality. One can imagine anything they want and who can argue. If one wishes to believe in foolish imagination, no logic can stand up against it. Because faith is a concept difficult to understand and being associated with Christianity, it is no wonder, as it becomes diluted and incorporated into modern thought, that it gets ridiculed as it does on places both IRL and in the cyberworld. However, is real faith as naive as it appears to some? Does it contain deeper meanings not often considered? I believe so. My own readings on it, and I admit from several obscure sources, have lead me to have a great respect for faith as I've grown to understand it. So I thought I would start a thread on it giving a simplified version to begin with of what I've come to value and let others comment on mine or give their own understandings. Who knows, different ideas may become food for thought for some that frown on faith allowing the concept to become more than just an expression of gullibility.
To begin with, there seems to be a discrepancy between the NIV and KJV
First the NIV
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Now the KJV
Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The NIV implies an attitude while the KJV implies definition (form).
So in terms of a Hershey bar yet to come, the NIV would define faith as the feeling of assurance that you will receive it while in the KJV, faith would vivify the substance of chocolate. Still something doesn't seem quite right. Back to this shortly in a different context..
Are faith and belief the same? Not from what I have read. It seems to me that belief is the initial step towards faith
Matthew 17 The Healing of a Boy With a Demon.
14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Now this occurs right after the Transfiguration at the beginning of Matthew 17. The disciples obviously BELIEVED in Jesus. They gave up everything to follow him. They witnessed the transfiguration. They couldn't drive out the demon though because as Christ said: "Because you have so little faith". I've also read that in some of the ancient translation Christ said it was because they had NO faith. Belief seems more conditioned or sense based so in very limited in its spiritual value. Nicodemus believed becuse of miracles yet Christ told him that "Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Faith is described as a mustard seed. This to me means it has the capacity to grow and change form like a seed becomes a mustard tree. Faith appears to imply direction. Christ in the above passage says: "O unbelieving and perverse generation" What does this have to do with faith. From what I've read, the Greek meaning of the word translated as "perverse" means "turning in many directions". So having no faith means to keep turning in many directions. What does it mean then to keep direction and who could do it?
Luke 7
There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
7He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
So what is so special about the faith of the centurion? From what I've read, this is a very deep passage and one of its meanings concerns the knowledge of different levels of existence. The centurion is an important man. He has many under his command. Even though powerful on his level, he realizes that he is helpless in the face of higher reality. The centurion then sees the relationship between what is below him and what is above him. His faith is not a manifestation of fear. It is instead a manifestation of a kind of conscious awareness of both his limitations and possibilities. It begins to have definition: substance. He sees the different levels in relation to his true possibilities. His FAITH is now a kind of direct knowing of the value Christ brings. This inner knowing is far beyond surface belief. The value of faith then for me is the growth from the seed of this inner knowing of the relationship between what is above and below. This allows one to acquire direction, the courage to proceed, and not just turn in circles from opposition to oneself. This knowing is not related to the five senses. Because its value is for the higher spiritual aspect, rebirth, it requires perception beyond the senses to higher reality that by definition is not imaginary.
So it seems to me that there is a difference between faith IN something (assurance) and faith as a state of being (substance). The centurians faith was substantial because it had substance, inner definition. It was more than an atitude. It was a form of presence.
So maybe to be without faith means to be without inner substance or definition that can survive the pulls of external life. Faith, if present, can allow one to remain "alive" in the spiritual sense, in the face of external pressures.
Consider this idea in the context of the following passage:
Matthew 6
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[ color=#0000ff1] ?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
As I understand it, the lillies have a bodily organization that matches their function, their purpose in the context of organic life. For the purpose of man in the spiritual sense which is the movement towards rebirth however, we lack this inner organization, this form, this substance of definition that could allow us to keep separate our external and internal purpose. Solomon, not having the internal substantial organization in accordance with his spiritual possibilities wasn't "complete" as was the lily.
Now it would be quite natural to ask here that if this is true, what can provide for substantial faith? This is another question. One thing at a time.
So this is a basic overview of how I value the possibilities of faith as compared to belief. If any of it is true, it surely doesn't deserve ridicule. How do you understand faith?
A while back I saw faith being pounded pretty good on another site. It was viewed at best as similar to something that is common now which is this idea of creating your own reality. One can imagine anything they want and who can argue. If one wishes to believe in foolish imagination, no logic can stand up against it. Because faith is a concept difficult to understand and being associated with Christianity, it is no wonder, as it becomes diluted and incorporated into modern thought, that it gets ridiculed as it does on places both IRL and in the cyberworld. However, is real faith as naive as it appears to some? Does it contain deeper meanings not often considered? I believe so. My own readings on it, and I admit from several obscure sources, have lead me to have a great respect for faith as I've grown to understand it. So I thought I would start a thread on it giving a simplified version to begin with of what I've come to value and let others comment on mine or give their own understandings. Who knows, different ideas may become food for thought for some that frown on faith allowing the concept to become more than just an expression of gullibility.
To begin with, there seems to be a discrepancy between the NIV and KJV
First the NIV
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Now the KJV
Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The NIV implies an attitude while the KJV implies definition (form).
So in terms of a Hershey bar yet to come, the NIV would define faith as the feeling of assurance that you will receive it while in the KJV, faith would vivify the substance of chocolate. Still something doesn't seem quite right. Back to this shortly in a different context..
Are faith and belief the same? Not from what I have read. It seems to me that belief is the initial step towards faith
Matthew 17 The Healing of a Boy With a Demon.
14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Now this occurs right after the Transfiguration at the beginning of Matthew 17. The disciples obviously BELIEVED in Jesus. They gave up everything to follow him. They witnessed the transfiguration. They couldn't drive out the demon though because as Christ said: "Because you have so little faith". I've also read that in some of the ancient translation Christ said it was because they had NO faith. Belief seems more conditioned or sense based so in very limited in its spiritual value. Nicodemus believed becuse of miracles yet Christ told him that "Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Faith is described as a mustard seed. This to me means it has the capacity to grow and change form like a seed becomes a mustard tree. Faith appears to imply direction. Christ in the above passage says: "O unbelieving and perverse generation" What does this have to do with faith. From what I've read, the Greek meaning of the word translated as "perverse" means "turning in many directions". So having no faith means to keep turning in many directions. What does it mean then to keep direction and who could do it?
Luke 7
There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.
7He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.
So what is so special about the faith of the centurion? From what I've read, this is a very deep passage and one of its meanings concerns the knowledge of different levels of existence. The centurion is an important man. He has many under his command. Even though powerful on his level, he realizes that he is helpless in the face of higher reality. The centurion then sees the relationship between what is below him and what is above him. His faith is not a manifestation of fear. It is instead a manifestation of a kind of conscious awareness of both his limitations and possibilities. It begins to have definition: substance. He sees the different levels in relation to his true possibilities. His FAITH is now a kind of direct knowing of the value Christ brings. This inner knowing is far beyond surface belief. The value of faith then for me is the growth from the seed of this inner knowing of the relationship between what is above and below. This allows one to acquire direction, the courage to proceed, and not just turn in circles from opposition to oneself. This knowing is not related to the five senses. Because its value is for the higher spiritual aspect, rebirth, it requires perception beyond the senses to higher reality that by definition is not imaginary.
So it seems to me that there is a difference between faith IN something (assurance) and faith as a state of being (substance). The centurians faith was substantial because it had substance, inner definition. It was more than an atitude. It was a form of presence.
So maybe to be without faith means to be without inner substance or definition that can survive the pulls of external life. Faith, if present, can allow one to remain "alive" in the spiritual sense, in the face of external pressures.
Consider this idea in the context of the following passage:
Matthew 6
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[ color=#0000ff1] ?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
As I understand it, the lillies have a bodily organization that matches their function, their purpose in the context of organic life. For the purpose of man in the spiritual sense which is the movement towards rebirth however, we lack this inner organization, this form, this substance of definition that could allow us to keep separate our external and internal purpose. Solomon, not having the internal substantial organization in accordance with his spiritual possibilities wasn't "complete" as was the lily.
Now it would be quite natural to ask here that if this is true, what can provide for substantial faith? This is another question. One thing at a time.
So this is a basic overview of how I value the possibilities of faith as compared to belief. If any of it is true, it surely doesn't deserve ridicule. How do you understand faith?