Imagine (no Religion)

[vicente]

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

John Lennon


No Religion at 14%
Poll: Protestant majority in U.S. eroding

Dropped from 63 percent to 52 percent in a decade
July 20, 2004

The United States will no longer be a majority Protestant nation in
years to come, due to a precipitous decline in affiliation with many
Protestant churches, a new survey has found
Between 1993 and 2002, the share of Americans who said they were
Protestant dropped from 63 percent to 52 percent, after remaining
generally stable since the McCarthy Era, according to a study
released Tuesday by the National Opinion Research Center at the
University of Chicago.

At the same time, the number of people who said they had no religion
rose from 9 percent to nearly 14 percent, and many are former
Protestants, the survey's authors said.

People who said they belonged to other religions — including Islam,
Orthodox Christianity or Eastern faiths — increased from 3 percent to
7 percent between 1993 and 2002, while the share of people who said
they were Jewish remained stable at just under 2 percent.

[todd]

Imagine communism....

[/QUOTE]No Religion at 14%[QUOTE]

Why is the majority of the American men circumcised?

[sonrisa]

I thought it is for medical reasons, the foreskin can hold germs & get infected, which can then spread....
but then I don't have that problem, so what do I know about it?

[taimoor2]

Very well. Lets break it down!


Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...


Then: -No need to be afraid of after life, do what ever you want to.
Steal, lie, ...etc. the list is long. <_<
- No need to be generous. Keep all for yourself as there is no God to reward or punish you.
- Every one lives for today! So why suffer for the betterment of other people?


Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...


- No countries? No games? No Glory or war? Do we really want that?
-Without religion? Even old Aztecs had a religion. It is in our nature to believe in something. How can you decline clear signs given by a creator. The perfect harmony of Sun and moon. The perfect nature of all thing. Every thing works as it should. Do you deny it? If you do than you have a real good imagination. :think:



Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...


-While this imagination business is in progress lets imagine a hardworking lad. He hopes to live a better life. If there is no possession than he will have no reward of his hard work. No A.C will be there, No computer will be there, nothing. As no one gains by working none will work. This world will be virtually destroyed or will be filled with Lazy peoples.


Do you disagree? If you do I am ready to argue!
Never Imagine something without weighing pros and cons!

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by taimoor2@Aug 1 2004, 06:56 AM

- No countries? No games? No Glory or war? Do we really want that?
-Without religion?
I don't think war should be glorified. it is a horrible, destructive, disgusting thing that should be avoided. People should know the truth about war. It shouldn't be dressed up as some wonderful, glorious thing.

Perhaps if we had a unified world govt, as opposed to all these separate govts (countries) that would help bring about peace. Or not. Depends upon how the Govt is set up. Nationalism, master races, all that crap have been known to start wars. Ditto religion, that my god's bigger than their god crap. Twisting hate into god's word, or twisting god's word to justify hate.... either way it's disgusting. Instead of coming together & celebrating all the diversity in our species, we slaughter those who aren't like us :shakehead:

as for no games? John Lennon didn't say anything about no games. Infact, from what I understand about him, he had a rather, unusual, shall we say, sense of humor & enjoyed playing games & pranks.

[vicente]

Imagine all the people living for today...

People who hope, who live for the future, are in essence living in the past. Predispositions arise from the past and are attached to the past. Life however can only be grasped in the Now.

Your argument taimoor2 is oxymoronal. It would be unfathomable for one who lives in the Now to steal, lie or be disengenuous. People living in the Now are not afraid. Fear comes from attachment to the past.

Imagine all the people living life in peace...

It is not in our nature to believe in something,...it is in egos nature to believe in something. Country's, wars, religion, etc., are about division. There will never be peace as long as there is division.

In the Bible there was peace once,...Genesis Chapter 11. But the Lord (elohim) felt challenged by this and said "behold, the people are one....and nothing will restain them from whatever they wish to do...so let Us go down and confuse them".

So much for the illusion of free will.

Imagine all the people Sharing all the world...

taimoor2 says: "imagine a hardworking lad...He hopes to live a better life...no possession than he will have no reward of his hard work". And so the ego system malipulates the Sheeple.

So-called hard word is a diversion to keep the you that you are (verses the you that you think you are) obscured from seeing yourself. If you and the Sheeple who promote possessions, hardwork, competition, etc., were not so fearful of life, you could manifest whatever you wished whenever you wished it.

In case you haven't heard, whether you believe it or not, the universe rearranges itself to accomodate your picture of reality. If your picture of reality is to live through the predispositions of the past, that is what you'll get.

Buddha realized enlightenment by grasping this one noble truth: "suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are". You can attempt to figure this out conceptually, that is, through your own predispositions, all you wish, but you will not get it. The way things are, is not the way you perceive them to be. In the way things are, there is no fear, lying, terrorists, nor hardworking lads. Those are products of the way you think things are.

Personally, I do not weigh things through "pros and cons", but choose the point of view of the fulcrum upon which the illusion of duality.

Light is the proof that no god exists.

:)

[todd]

Light is the proof that no god exists.

I see you like this statement, vicente. I guess soon it will become your motto.
What a pity, it's just a desperate try to justify yourself in the inexistent continuous present you're dreaming at. By light in a way, you mean enlightenment, and enlightenment means peace... you obviously miss it. You're still running, and we can feel your heavy breath, you're still running away from yourself...

You did not comment my statement though - imagine communism.
Communism it is all you're dreaming at- no religion, no possession, no countries, brotherhood - nice concepts, but taimoor2 is right. Nothing to kill or die for means actually nothing to live for. Another hideous beauty of life. Absolute monotony. The NOW you're looking for.

I agree, it's nice to dream about it, but a dream is a dream and nothing more.
This is why this song is so great, because it is just repeating imagine, imagine, imagine,... conscient about it's utopic reality.
Communism is beautiful in itself but it lacks the joy of life.

[vicente]

No Todd,...the song has naught to do with communism. It is your fear of peace and dissolvement of your ego that has you confused. You think the dream is life, and so you fight to sustain the dream. No big deal,...you're one of the 99% who are so deluded.

The statement that Light is the proof that no god exists is absolute and irrefutable. I understand however that your beliefs cannot grasp that, no matter how simply it is presented. Sort of like the mesoamericans who greeted Cortez on the beach,...they asked where Cortez came from, and Cortez pointed to the ships off shore, but for all their lookinh, the mesoamericans could not see the ships, only a few hundred yards off shore, because they never heard of ships before.

As Schwaller de Lubicz stated, 'you don't know the questions unless you already have the answers' . Yet I find it amusing to interact with sophomoric kindergarteners like you who don't have a clue, so you attempt to strike out with jibberish like "we can feel your heavy breath".

Actually, some Connected Breathing would be quite good for you.

:)

[todd]

The statement that Light is the proof that no god exists is absolute and irrefutable
Even if you don’t believe it, I understand your opinion, but I’m sorry I cannot share it, because, honestly, it looks limited and selfish to me. For you, is the NOW that exist and matters. Your Light is everything, the “creation without creation”, it is like postulating yourself the origin of the univers. Maybe you find in these something more profound than I do, but in my view this light either exists and you identify yourself with it, or not, and everything is absolute void, absolute death. This is why this theory has a sort of selfish radicalism in it. For me your ‘now’ does not exist, it is just an illusion you get when dissecting the time continuum, in the hope of making something in ‘present’ matter, to make yourself matter. My view is the opposite of your light, the perfect infinite randomness that sometimes looks like order, where nothing is excluded, and even your light is something that is certain within an infinite number of possibilities, like a drop in the ocean. You see ‘mind’ not related to our universe and to life, a pure “seed of Light”, for me mind is life. For me time, space, energy, mass, light are one, continuous, part of the same entity which is existence; discreet, static, quantum, are just concepts, models to help us define objective reality. The comprehensibility of the incomprehensible

You think the dream is life, and so you fight to sustain the dream

Do you imply here I wouldn’t be in peace with myself? Struggling for the next day in this life, because I do not gnow your answers? Again I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I am in more in peace with myself than you think ( I do not deny stupidity could be a good reason, but I honestly don’t quite think it’s the case) My bitterness is the humanity, the violence, hunger, pain, greed and the thirst for power, the lack of understanding. I said that you’re running, because you do not sound in peace, you sound always sad, bitter, grumpy…. always in fight with someone beliefs, always saying that you know, when in fact you know that you cannot know, that nobody can demonstrate the nondemonstrable. You don’t tell anyone you don’t like his ideas, but you tell him he’s wrong. So, do you think you sound in peace, Vicente?

No Todd,...the song has naught to do with communism. It is your fear of peace and dissolvement of your ego that has you confused.

I do agree the song has nothing to do with it, what I’m saying is that you posted it here thinking about an utopic concept similar to communism. Or maybe just to show how nice “no religion” sounds? Maybe I overestimate your targets, but you have to agree that lyrics, ad literam define it.
My opinion - he song is a beautiful dream you try to spoil by bringing it to reality.


Actually, some Connected Breathing would be quite good for you...I find it amusing to interact with sophomoric kindergarteners like you who don't have a clue

I don’t know why, but in your above posting, even if you attack me, you sound more peaceful than usual…

[vicente]

For me your ‘now’ does not exist....For me time, space, energy, mass, light are one, continuous, part of the same entity which is existence; discreet, static, quantum, are just concepts, models to help us define objective reality.

I wouldn't have used the word quantum, but generally agree, that is, for those who believe in time, space, energy, mass, (traveling) light, the Now does not exist.

If it wasn't for some few hundred Buddha's and Bodhisattva's who realized the Now and then spoke of it, I may have considered my own direct experiences rather queer. However, the fact remains that there is no present in time, space does not exist without time, energy is simply a product of being separate from Source, mass does not exist, (traveling) light is an illusion of separation,...the Now does 'stand alone' (see definition for exist).

I am in more in peace with myself than you think

Peace is impossible in the past. I can understand your desire to think you are in peace, but that thought is merely delusional when considered from the point of view of Still Light.

I do not sound in peace to you because I threaten what is false in you, and what you cling to for your identity. If we could start with one premise, perhaps that could be built upon, and then all I type here would be clear,...but we cannot start with one premise on a foundation of irrational predispositions. An irrefutable fact is that there is no present in time. The problem, as I see it, is that 'time' fears the present, the Now, because to time such an experience would mean its death.

It is sort of like the story of the one-eyed man in the Valley of the Blind,...the people there insist on treating the one-eyed man for his illness.

My opinion - he song is a beautiful dream you try to spoil by bringing it to reality

On the contrary,...for those who have 'stilled' themselfs (through meditation, Connected Breathing, Colour therapy, etc), the song speaks of reality and the waking up from the dream.

Religion would like all to believe that 'it' is necessary.

religion n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

belief n. from ME bileve, v, influenced by bileven\gelfan\leubh,
to hold dear/to make palatable. 1. the mental act, condition, or
habit of placing confidence in another without proof that one is
right in doing so. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the
truth, actuality, or validity of something not susceptable to
validation. 3. something believed or unquestioningly accepted as
true in the absence of reason, especially a particular ideology

:)
accepted by a group of persons. 4. a religious tenet or tenets;
an object of belief.

[zygoat]

vicente,
Religion would like all to believe that 'it' is necessary.

religion n.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

belief n. from ME bileve, v, influenced by bileven\gelfan\leubh,
to hold dear/to make palatable. 1. the mental act, condition, or
habit of placing confidence in another without proof that one is
right in doing so. 2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the
truth, actuality, or validity of something not susceptable to
validation. 3. something believed or unquestioningly accepted as
true in the absence of reason, especially a particular ideology


accepted by a group of persons. 4. a religious tenet or tenets;
an object of belief.

If it wasn't for some few hundred Buddha's and Bodhisattva's

So-called hard word is a diversion to keep the you that you are (verses the you that you think you are) obscured from seeing yourself. If you and the Sheeple who promote possessions, hardwork, competition, etc., were not so fearful of life, you could manifest whatever you wished whenever you wished it.
you live under the umbrella of others' hard work!!

[Ronagon]

But without religion, what will keep the genetically stupid and immature from making the world a mad-house hell-hole?

[vicente]

But without religion, what will keep the genetically stupid and immature from making the world a mad-house hell-hole?

Do we really need morals and faith-based values?

A wise man once said:
"Morality can only be imposed from without when we are asleep. Morality is nothing but a deep suppression. We can not do anything while asleep,...we can only suppress.
Through morality we become false,...we will not be a person, but simply a "persona" - just a pseudo entity.
Only a dishonest person clings to morality.

A moral person is concerned with ideals - how we should be, what we should be, how to be convenient to society,...and thus inconvenient to ourself.
The preachers have convinced the whole world that "we are sinners". This is good for them, because unless we are convinced, their profession cannot continue. Religion is built on us being sinners, on our inferiority complex,...they have created an inferior humanity.

Love is not concerned with our so-called morals, our social formalities, etc. Love is neither concerned with immorality, it makes no difference between a thief and a saint. Immorality comes from the disturbed mind of morality. Love is amoral.
Morality and concepts concerning moral behavior are irrelevant for love.
Morality is basically condemning. We are never the ideal so we are condemned. Every morality is guilt-creating. Love does not condemn.

Of necessity, every morality creates hypocracy. Hypocracy will remain with morality,...it is part of it - like a shadow. This will look paradoxical because moralists are the men who condemn hypocracy the most, and yet they are the creators of it.
Hypocracy cannot disappear from the earth unless morality disappears. They exist together as two sides of the same coin. Morality gives us the ideal and we are not the idea; that is why the ideal is given to us. Then we start feeling that we are wrong, and that this wrongness is natural, it is given to us, we are born with it, born with sin. We cannot transform it, only suppress it,...that is easy.

But what can we do. We can create a false face; we can pretend to be something we are not. This saves us; allows religion to save us. Then we can move more easily in society - more conveniently.
Inwardly we have to suppress the real because the unreal can only be imposed only if the real is suppressed. So our reality goes on moving downward into the unconscious and our unreality becomes our conscious. Our unreal part becomes more dominant and the real recedes back.

We condemn the real and we enforce the unreal, because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society and the unreal is going to be convenient. Where everyone is false, the real is not going to be convenient. And thus, in the vicious cycle, we train our children to be false". Osho

[Ronagon]

I like religion, because if I join a religion I get to beat the hell out of people and bully them, and not get in trouble.

[venom mama]

did anyone here ever see the movie " Being John Malcovich" where they go into his mind and look around and experience what he does? something like that.


i would like to do that to vicente's mind.

[venom mama]

Originally posted by Ronagon@Nov 14 2004, 03:31 PM
I like religion, because if I join a religion I get to beat the hell out of people and bully them, and not get in trouble.
are.... you.... ready.......to.......rumble.......

[venom mama]

religion is more than what people name it. there is nothing wrong with faith. people who judge religion by what others of a so called sect have done are missing the point. religion is very personal. the mistake we make is by not looking with our own selves. people who proclain themselves as christians may not be christians. what others do is not how we should judge our own beliefs. i do agree in forming no attachments. i will say though, it gets lonely. i move around alot because for some reason i can't settle. i seem to have something about me that won't let me attach myself to anything. while this does make it easy to continue on my gypsy ways sometimes i wish i could hold on.

[a random hack]

have you tried connection without attachment?

[Nick_A]

The key word here is "Imagine". We can imagine anything but our being prevents it.

"Humanism was not wrong in thinking that truth, beauty, liberty, and equality are of infinite value, but in thinking that man can get them for himself without grace." SIMONE WEIL

As insulting as it is to our Egotism I believe that the impatial person must conclude that all the wonderful talk is useless. We are what we are so life will continue to be as it is. Water seeks its own level.

But in fact, no assumption of moral authority by secular humanism has taken hold or now seems in any way likely or justified. The modern era, the era of science, while witnessing the phenomenal acceleration of scientific discovery and its applications in technological innovation, has brought the world the inconceivable slaughter and chaos of modern war, along with the despair of ethical dilemmas arising from new technologies that all at once project humanity's essence-immortality onto the entire planet: global injustice, global heartlessness, and global disintegration of the normal patterns of life that have guided mankind for a millennia. Neither the secular philosophies of our epoch nor its theories of human nature - pragmatism, positivism, Marxism, Liberalism, humanism, behaviorism, biological determinism, psychoanalysis - nor the traditional doctrines of the religions, in the way we have understood them, seem able to confront or explain the crimes of humanity in our era, nor other wise and compassionate guidance through the labyrinth of paralyzing new ethical problems.

Well since I believe that life on earth is just a reflection of the nature of human "being" itself, it seems reasonable to assume that expecting human "being" that praises itself for what it is couldn't possibly sustain a free society that would require it to be more than it is. If nothing else, greed will prevent it.

Religion, if nothing else, emphasises the humility necessary to minimize the effects of this artificial self importance and vanity that keeps human "being" as it is. This moderating effect I believe is necessary for maintaining the mindset that can allow people to cooperate. Of course it has its drawbacks since it is perverted through our egotism. Yet I must believe that without religious understanding to some degree, no real cooperation is possible other than in our imagination expressed in all sorts of meaningless platitudes.

Not an easy problem. I appreciate a free society so I accept the religious influence knowing full well that the objective reason at its depth such as in Christianity is completely beyond societal understanding. Just trying to make the best out of a bad situation so I choose the moderate religious influence.

[sahyo]

many people 'try' religion,
when cannot loving without fearing,
'trying' to seek security through it to ease insecurity

...when no fearing,
loving not need trying that

:)

[Nick_A]

We experience "love" with emotional and psychical energies quite normal for earthly existence. Experiencing "love" with spiritual energy is different entirely and only a few ever get to taste the difference because of being so intent on justifying themselves. One thing I am thankful for esoteric Christianity is its sincerity in acknowledging the difference.

[sahyo]

We experience "love" with emotional and psychical energies quite normal for earthly existence. Experiencing "love" with spiritual energy is different entirely and only a few ever get to taste the difference because of being so intent on justifying themselves.

imagining as though can separate loving as though "spiritual" notspiritual,
and as though can an experiencer?

[Nick_A]

Asheera

I'd like to ask you what your path is. Don't think it is to be critical because that is not my way. I'd just like to learn why you don't discriminate in quality of emotion or of being itself.

Animal love like a dog's love is of the earth and in this way it is selective. This is perfectly natural for life on earth and the human animal has the same emotion as does the dog only often not as pure.

However beings from above like Jesus, or Buddha for example, are of a different quality of being and their capacity for conscious love is not selective in the way normal for earthly existence. This quality reflects a love of life itself as opposed to selecting within life.

I've become so familiar with acknowledging levels of quality it is strange for me to read someone so insistant that for example, there is no difference between the qualities of animal and spiritual love.

What has inspired you to believe as you do?

[sahyo]

difference between the qualities of animal and spiritual love.

qualities?

[Nick_A]

Asheera

qualities?

Quality very profound word; has many meanings. Woman's greatest gift to man comes from the very few that have not lost their natural ability to perceive degrees of emotional quality through self deception If not recognized one can have no objective self respect. This IMO very sad thing.

[sahyo]

that is silly statement nick

[Nick_A]

Ashheera

Why do you say that? There are so many stories and fables dating back to ancient times that show how a man has become open to his spiritual side from a woman's emotional purity that he lacks and must develop. It is the classic prince turned into a frog and kissed by the pure woman. The natural evolutionary progression is for women to help man awaken and once awakened, he helps her to progress. Not a very modern concept.

Women can either help to free men or trap them in illusion. Parsival came to this realization in his search. What did he react to from Kundry's kiss?

Yet it was the woman Mary in the Bible who anointed Jesus at Bethany much to the ethical confusion of the male Apostles. If men have lost what it means to be male, is it any wonder that women follow suit and lose the quality of their emotion and sacrificing it to vanity. It is natural the further we move from the time of the appearance of one from above. Their influence becomes diluted in life becoming purely secular and we begin to believe that we already have what objectively exists as our potential

I read one book about Jeanne de Salzmann called "Heart without Measure". Yet New Agers would be shocked to read the following considering it lacking in "love". Yet such honesty can only come from a deep respect for emotional quality and the ways in which it becomes contaminated. It doesn't tell you how wonderful you are but what is sacrificed through egotism including wonderful platitudes.

First Initiation

By Jeanne de Salzmann

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

~ • ~

This essay was originally published in Gurdjieff: Essays and Reflections on the Man and His Teaching, New York: Continuum, 1996, edited by Jacob Needleman and George Baker, from the French edition compiled by Bruno de Panafieu.

This honesty can only come from love of a higher quality.

[sahyo]

perceive degrees of emotional quality



"perceive" as though an imagined-preceiver
which can measure-"qualtity"?

[Nick_A]

Asheera

"perceive" as though an imagined-preceiver
which can measure-"qualtity"?

So long imagining no perceiver maybe lost capacity for objective emotional discrimination. Hope not.

[bito]

Why do you say that? There are so many stories and fables dating back to ancient times that show how a man has become open to his spiritual side from a woman's emotional purity that he lacks and must develop. It is the classic prince turned into a frog and kissed by the pure woman. The natural evolutionary progression is for women to help man awaken and once awakened, he helps her to progress. Not a very modern concept.

'I' danced this imagined dance of purity and progression, feeling this illusion.

[sahyo]

"perceive" as though an imagined-preceiver
which can measure-"qualtity"?




So long imagining no perceiver maybe lost capacity for objective emotional discrimination. Hope not.



:goodlaugh:

[sahyo]

'I' danced this imagined dance of purity and progression, feeling this illusion.



:goodlaugh:

[Nick_A]

Hi Bito

'I' danced this imagined dance of purity and progression, feeling this illusion.

Yes, this is our problem. We use earthly emotion replace our capacity for "Feeling". You found it an illusion which it is. If you really experienced "feeling" you'd know it was not an illusion. It is true that we imagine purity and progression. Our difficulty is that this imagination denies us the ability to really experience in this way. We make it even more difficult since our egotism doesn't allow us to experience the true humility of these experiences.

The beginning of true objective emotional discrimination is the experience of our nothingness. Nothing pure here. Progression comes through the experience of objective "conscience" which has nothing to do with cultural morality.

While true consciousness is the intellectual experience of knowing what is, concience is the experience of our scattered emotional states that, for example, can love and hate the same thing. Conscience is the driving motivational force that seeks to reconcile all this opposition which can only be done through what lies beyond all this duality.

Normally our state of sleep keeps conscience asleep as well. It is dangerous to experience it without preparation since it is a great shock. All these reasons are why the true teachers do not really teach until the student is prepared to experience their nothingness. Otherwise the teaching becomes captured by the ego's ego making it all the more difficult for the student when they are ready to move beyond their corrupted ego in more than lip service.

"Even a momentary awakening of conscience in a man who has thousands of different I's is bound to involve suffering. And if these moments of conscience become longer and if a man does not fear them but on the contrary co-operates with them and tries to keep and prolong them, an element of very subtle joy, a foretaste of the future 'clear consciousness' will gradually enter these moments."

Yes you danced the imagined dance. When we truly experience the capacity for emotional quality and our helplessness in the face of it, this division between what we are and our possibilities, you won't want to dance. Just the state of "presence" natural for such an experience that allows us to feel ourselves in relation to below and above will be enough. It will be what brings meaning to what we do. Men need women to teach them this, to help them "feel" it. It is part of the attraction of "beauty". The fight is not with what is outside which is normal to think as we are growing up, but what is inside ourselves. Through women that have aquired such feeling, men are able to experience this.

But in all fairness I'm speaking of what I believe to be the interaction of men and women in a more natural state. In the modern technological world where everything is taken together, both men and women as a whole gradually lose such inner taste being content with imagination. Thank goodness for the exceptions that comprise a real "minority group".

[sahyo]

The beginning of true objective emotional discrimination is the experience of our nothingness.

"emotional discrimination" is imagined as though happening when not

While true consciousness is the intellectual experience of knowing what is, concience is the experience of our scattered emotional states that, for example, can love and hate the same thing.

not possible "intellectual experience of knowing what is"

Conscience is the driving motivational force that seeks to reconcile all this opposition which can only be done through what lies beyond all this duality.

"opposition-duality" not happening

[sahyo]

'I' danced this imagined dance of purity and progression, feeling this illusion.


"I" is an imagined sensation which can 'feel' as though is happening when not

[Nick_A]

Asheera

Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc. all explains some sort of relationship between above and below and that something is happening that explains our universe and man within it. Then there is Asheera who states "not happening". You really should explain why you believe as you do. Just to keep saying "not happening" is really incomplete in relation to ancient understanding. Give it a shot, talk to me.

[sahyo]

Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam etc. all explains some sort of relationship between above and below and that something is happening that explains our universe and man within it. Then there is Asheera who states "not happening". You really should explain why you believe as you do. Just to keep saying "not happening" is really incomplete in relation to ancient understanding. Give it a shot, talk to me.


not believing, dear

"not happening" wasn't referring happening nor nothappening
but sensations which most people often imagine-believe happening

explaining cannot explain

intensity is necessary

listen and looking will happen
without looking

dancing

loving

[Ronagon]

I don't know whether to find asheera's hebephrenic babbling pleasantly pointless, or metaphysically malignant.

Is it an attempt to turn us all into easily subjugatable mush-heads, or to merely lighten the mood?

[Ronagon]

How many posts does it take before I can personalize my avatar description? 6,000?

I'll have a long white beard down to the floor before that can happen. I'm only at 145 right now.

[Nick_A]

Asheera

I don't believe this is not as easy as you make it appear.

"not happening" wasn't referring happening nor nothappening
but sensations which most people often imagine-believe happening

Sensations are very real and a necessary part of the whole of the human organism. What is unreal is the acquired fear and imagination based mechanical, habitual, thought and emotion that becomes associated with sensation. It is even a big thing when a person begins to distinguish between a sensation and a feeling, For example just to experience the difference between sensing and feeling cold is a big step.

explaining cannot explain

It depends both on the quality of the explainer and the ability to explain. A person without real understanding cannot explain since the truth behind the explanation is revealed from the quality of the explainer. Why do you think the Apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus? Was it because of what he said or from what depth of their being that awakened because of his "presence"?

Objective art for example is a form of explanation that functions beyond the limitations of the literal mind.


intensity is necessary

A quality of effort is necessary which is not the same as blind intensity. We can be very intense in our attempts at escapism or in accomplishing a worldly task. The development of human "being" requires efforts concerning the blend of the mind, emotions, and sensations.

listen and looking will happen
without looking

True but what happens in life when you open your eyes? You abort yourself. Must learn how to look with eyes open also. This requires going into the body and getting to know it so that the body serves the person and not just the person serving the body. It cannot happen in the process of trying to escape from it.

dancing

loving

There is mechanical dancing and loving that just is inspired by going with the flow and is selective in relation to the energies manifesting within the flow at the time.

Then there is a conscious type of dance such as in Tibetan Sacred dance that seeks to develop the qulity of emotion through bodily movement and posture.

There is also a quality of conscious love that can occur with eyes open impossible by just going with the flow and experiencing love as we normally do.

Not so easy.

[sahyo]

you misinterpreted

:)

[bito]

The beginning of true objective emotional discrimination is the experience of our nothingness.

Nothingness can only be experienced in the believing that feelings of pride and shame are real and needed for transforming to 'happen'. Believing in pride and shame is fearing loving. When fearing stops, believing in transforming stops.

Nothing pure here. Progression comes through the experience of objective "conscience" which has nothing to do with cultural morality.

What you call objective 'conscience' is seeing that pride and shame is believing in fearing. There is no progressing (no moving) in seeing.

While true consciousness is the intellectual experience of knowing what is, concience is the experience of our scattered emotional states that, for example, can love and hate the same thing. Conscience is the driving motivational force that seeks to reconcile all this opposition which can only be done through what lies beyond all this duality.

Can you not see the duality in 'true' consciousness? Consciousness is.

What you call conscience is fearing loving. In loving, what is there to be done?

Normally our state of sleep keeps conscience asleep as well. It is dangerous to experience it without preparation since it is a great shock. All these reasons are why the true teachers do not really teach until the student is prepared to experience their nothingness. Otherwise the teaching becomes captured by the ego's ego making it all the more difficult for the student when they are ready to move beyond their corrupted ego in more than lip service.

Ego is the name given to fearing loving/being.

Yes you danced the imagined dance. When we truly experience the capacity for emotional quality and our helplessness in the face of it, this division between what we are and our possibilities, you won't want to dance. Just the state of "presence" natural for such an experience that allows us to feel ourselves in relation to below and above will be enough. It will be what brings meaning to what we do. Men need women to teach them this, to help them "feel" it. It is part of the attraction of "beauty". The fight is not with what is outside which is normal to think as we are growing up, but what is inside ourselves.

Oh how I once believed this!

There is no teaching Nick.

Through women that have aquired such feeling, men are able to experience this.

Acquire feeling? As if it is a 'thing to be found?

But in all fairness I'm speaking of what I believe to be the interaction of men and women in a more natural state. In the modern technological world where everything is taken together, both men and women as a whole gradually lose such inner taste being content with imagination. Thank goodness for the exceptions that comprise a real "minority group".

Believing in purity, in progression, in beauty, in goodness, in man, in woman, in natural, in objectivity, in conscience, in scattered 'I's, in exceptions, in lower, in higher, in "minority group" is believing in time.

No time. No space. No here. No there.

No 'exceptions'... :D

:loveyou:

[bito]

"I" is an imagined sensation which can 'feel' as though is happening when not

Imagined sensation of 'I' very 'stubborn' imagining :lol:

[bito]

There is no teaching, Nick.

Not teaching...perhaps sensation of remembering?

(thanking asheera for wording of sensation :hug:)

[bito]

A quality of effort is necessary which is not the same as blind intensity. We can be very intense in our attempts at escapism or in accomplishing a worldly task.

intensity is intensity and sensation of ‘burning’ imaginings is happening, even when unaware of ‘why’ sensation of burning is happening

when imaginings seen as fearing emptiness, sensation of burning is ‘as roaring loving fire’

The development of human "being" requires efforts concerning the blend of the mind, emotions, and sensations.

when intensity is done, no more believing in doing or blending

[Nick_A]

Hi bito

Nothingness can only be experienced in the believing that feelings of pride and shame are real and needed for transforming to 'happen'. Believing in pride and shame is fearing loving. When fearing stops, believing in transforming stops.

I know from my own personal experience that my inner life is very much as described by St. Paul.

Romans 7

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

I've experienced this to be true in myself. My emotional states largely just come and go depending on external cause. This is what I believe is meant by our nothingness. If you've found this to be different in yourself, you're more advanced then I am.

Pride and shame have little to do with it especially since the words can have to distinctly different meanings. For example the subjective "self pride" is completely different from the objective state of "pride of self" in which "hope" is manifest. They enter because of the scattered condition of our emotional life. The bottom line though is from my experience of being this wretched man, all this talk on "love" becomes academic simply because as I am I am incapable of it. It makes sense to me first to question how to deal with the chaos of my emotional life. I begin with what I verify and in this case, it is myself as this "wretched man".

What you call objective 'conscience' is seeing that pride and shame is believing in fearing. There is no progressing (no moving) in seeing.

Believing can be defined as what we do. We can believe one thing in the morning and another at night. Sometimes we fear and sometimes we don't. In each case it is what we believe or the results of certain sides of our collective selves that have become dominant. It is through our own inner deceit that all this is rationalized as "normal" Conscience feels the hypocrisy of our inner life since it can only can exist in the absence of our inner lies, it seldom can make an appearance.

To be able to "see" is extremely rare. It is not normal for our being. Seeing and imagined seeing are not the same.

"Hundreds of people can talk for one who can think, but thousands can think for one who can see." JOHN RUSKIN

IMO that is a very liberal estimate. But this seeing would emotionally reveal that as we are, we are powerless against these beliefs. This is a real force that can lead the ability to rid ourselves of the power of inner deceit and its resultant negative emotion.

Can you not see the duality in 'true' consciousness? Consciousness is.

But it is also relative. for example, we have four basic states of consciousness. The first is sleep as in bed and its gradations. The second is waking sleep where we walk around, go to work, lead normal lives and such. The third is self awareness in which a person is the conscious awareness of contact with external life and the beginning of awakening. the fourth is objective consciousness where reality is experienced as it is There is an enormous span in quality of consciousness that separates these states and sub levels within them. Consciousness is but exists in the same sense of relativity as does the span of "being" that comprises the great universe

Ego is the name given to fearing loving/being.

This I understand as the corrupt ego. Our ego is the connection between our inner world and the external world that comes through the conscious unification of our sensing, feeling, and thinking. No useless fear or imagination during such awareness.

Acquire feeling? As if it is a 'thing to be found?

What must be found is the place where feelings can enter. It is only our lack of self knowledge that allows us to believe that "feelings' are as easy to experience as "emotions". Much of the ancient Christian tradition was based on this but the experts got a hold of it and that was the end of that.

No time. No space. No here. No there.

No 'exceptions'...

There are two major exceptions. As I pointed out on another thread they are Republicans and hemorrhoids. Once you can kill them off along with any remnants of their existence, then you may have no time, space, here, or there. But they are very sly and not so easy to kill off. Until then I must disagree and accept time as the reflection of the quality of "Now", and space as necessary for it to exist harmlessly in the context of wholeness.

when intensity is done, no more believing in doing or blending

Big difference between intensity and "will".

[bito]

Nick

I remember 'the wretched woman' and she found a thousand 'reasons' for her wretchedness. When she hit the wall of no reasons left, she 'saw' that there was no woman 'there' to be wretched. No woman, no 'I'. I know for you, this is not 'spiritually true', this no 'I', but for 'me', there is no 'I' to be wretched and no 'I' to be advanced. If there is, then God and me are in it together.

As long as the 'I' lives, as long as there is believing in separation between God and self, then the sense of wretchedness will also live. Wretchedness, redemption...the cycle of believing in separation.

When seeing that God and self are one and never 'not were one', then all believing in ownership of wretchedness or redemption or purity or progressing simply falls away. As do believing in emotional states, for what is a state, but believing in separation from being (as in I have or am in an emotional state).

For me, what happened was a putting away of all my 'spiritual' books and stopping writing 'spiritual' writings (the concept of spiritual is a huge 'seeing' blocker) and 'allowing' the fire of separate/not separate? to burn.

Loving is seeing no separation and the intensity that happens (wretchedness) is the imagined inner battle of both 'fighting against' and the 'longing for' this 'oneness'...this intensity is duality ' collapsing'...

As for pride and shame, pride is the belief that self and God are separate and that 'I' can honor God (do His will) and shame is the belief that 'I' can dishonor God (not do His will). This desiring to 'do God's will' - gasoline on the fire of loving...

If wording must be said, then verbing best speaks loving/being/seeing:

joying...running...raining...weeping...laughing... falling...greening...shining...singing...being

delighting speaking Nickbito... :)

[Nick_A]

Hi Bito

I remember 'the wretched woman' and she found a thousand 'reasons' for her wretchedness. When she hit the wall of no reasons left, she 'saw' that there was no woman 'there' to be wretched. No woman, no 'I'. I know for you, this is not 'spiritually true', this no 'I', but for 'me', there is no 'I' to be wretched and no 'I' to be advanced. If there is, then God and me are in it together.

Yes you found a thousand reasons and that is the trouble. Understanding our nature as a plurality of conflicting small wills has no connotation of either good or bad. Its no good to beat yourself over the head by examples and feeling "bad". All this is the result of a corrupt ego justifying itself.

If you recall, I am the one always asserting that we are a plurality and the idea of us having an "I", will, choice, or anything like that is imagination. How can a sleeping person have choice? What we believe is our will is really just the dominant reaction to conflicting desires. So it is agreed that we have no big "I". Where we differ is that IMO it is man's evolutionary possibility to acquire "I". This is really the soul.

It is no good to consider oneself as evil for being the wretched man since it is just an unfortunate state that developed through no fault of our own and help is always available. We are a plurality and that is enough. What good are value judgements?

As long as the 'I' lives, as long as there is believing in separation between God and self, then the sense of wretchedness will also live. Wretchedness, redemption...the cycle of believing in separation.

It's not a matter of "believing". One must verify including our captivation in negative emotional states. This is what is meant by self knowledge. Do you exist as one with God in your daily life or do you exist as a scattered plurality suggested by St. Paul? You've got to verify one way or another. Just saying something is so and wishing it to be so isn't enough. It must be verified by becoming open and free from our normal preconception.

Loving is seeing no separation and the intensity that happens (wretchedness) is the imagined inner battle of both 'fighting against' and the 'longing for' this 'oneness'...this intensity is duality ' collapsing'...

"Seeing" is an aspect of consciousness which is an intellectual function we rarely experience. Loving is an emotional experience that can have either an earthly or a spiritual origin and their quality is completely different. This is why "loving" as we know it is not enough.

First things first we need "Attention of the heart". Consider what is said by St. Simeon in connection with the "Sermon on the Mount":

"He who does not have attention in himself and does not guard his mind cannot become pure in heart and so cannot see God/ He who does not have attention in himself cannot be poor in spirit, cannot weep and become contrite, nor be gentle and meek, nor hunger and thirst after righteousness, nor be merciful, nor a peacemaker, nor suffer persecution for righteousness' sake."

Love can be related to reality or imagination. First I believe we have to clean ourselves out in order to discern and the first step is to be open to look. This looking must include "Attention of the Heart"

Further on he writes:

Keep your mind there (in the heart), trying by every possible means to find the place where the heart is, in order that, having found it, your mind should constantly abide there. Wrestling thus, the mind will find the place of the heart."

This strikes me as extremely important. People speak of love all the time without understanding. The Holy faculty of Attention leads us to the heart which is the center of our being. Unfortunately, I believe a lot of what are called spiritual efforts assume that the heart is known. IMO a serious mistake that only leads to meaningless escapism at best.

As for pride and shame, pride is the belief that self and God are separate and that 'I' can honor God (do His will) and shame is the belief that 'I' can dishonor God (not do His will). This desiring to 'do God's will' - gasoline on the fire of loving...

Man as a plurality, lacking in unity, will, and a creature of desire cannot do God's will. Man on earth in this state serves the purpose of the Earth and doesn't reflect God's will.

Shame as we know it results from our egotism. However, objective shame is related to concience which makes us aware of the debilitating effects of our inner hypocrisy.

Man with a soul, "I" is different and has free will but understanding what "free will" is requires a bit of humility. From Meister Eckhart:

"God...does not constrain the will. Rather, he sets it free, so that it may choose him, that is to say, freedom. The spirit of man may not will otherwise than what God wills, but that is no lack of freedom. It is true freedom itself."


Bito, adding "ing" won't help other than make you feel good. What will help is developing impartial attention and the courage to "see".

[bito]

Nick

So many assumptions and so many quotes to back up these assumptions... go acquire your soul if you wish...me?...no acquiring 'needed'...

:gone:

[Nick_A]

I'll match your smile and raise you a wink. ;)

[bito]

;) + ;)

:)

[sonrisa]

:applause:

[CSwriter1]

Originally posted by Ronagon@Nov 8 2004, 12:27 PM
But without religion, what will keep the genetically stupid and immature from making the world a mad-house hell-hole?


May we consider hell? Another word for hell is Hades. Hades in the Greek name for the underworld and the name of the god who lives in hell.

We must all go to Hades for a search of meaning, and those who don't are frivilous people. However, Hades is a very dangerous place to go, because it is so easy to get lost in Hades. No one should go there without the help of the Gods.
Being lost in Hades is depression, and even worse stages of mental dis-ease.

Each God and Goddess is a model, archtype, set of perspections and means of handling problems.

This anceint understanding of Hades/hell is one of the best understandings of our human experience ever put in words. Smile, perhaps some religious people are so shallow, because they avoid Hades very well. They avoid much of life by not looking at it, and avoid thinking like Bush. They live in denial and fantasy, separate form the reality they share with humanity.

[sonrisa]

CS--May we consider hell? Another word for hell is Hades. Hades in the Greek name for the underworld and the name of the god who lives in hell.

-- actually Hel is the name of a Norse Goddess, & her domain is cold, not hot. But her father, Loki, is the fire god/. Also the Trixter


CS--We must all go to Hades for a search of meaning, and those who don't are frivilous people. However, Hades is a very dangerous place to go, because it is so easy to get lost in Hades. No one should go there without the help of the Gods.
Being lost in Hades is depression, and even worse stages of mental dis-ease.

--good observation. I think that hell can be a state of mind, although I never before considered depression as one of those states. But I think that what you say is true- depression can be hellish. I also think that perfectly sane people can make their lives hell, as well




CS--This anceint understanding of Hades/hell is one of the best understandings of our human experience ever put in words. Smile, perhaps some religious people are so shallow, because they avoid Hades very well.

-- hmmmm, interesting observation



CS--They avoid much of life by not looking at it, and avoid thinking- like Bush. They live in denial and fantasy, separate form the reality they share with humanity.

-- dubya is turning this country into Hades

[CSwriter1]

I am so glad to have one ego, after experiencing a bout of multiple personalities and being afraid the wrong one would gain control. I think some experiences can not be appreciated without having the experience. It was during this weak moment that I determined to give up completely the idea that Christianity was true, because when lost in the depths of Hades as I was, the idea that I could be possessed was not a good one to think about! Thankfully, as science ended the witch hunts, it also ended by passage through hell. I learned about post trauma syndrome, and got the help needed to restore my mental well being.

Yes, we all have conflicting needs, as do all social animals, such as primates. Hum, smile, are primates asleep? Do they have egos? May I say from experience, all who have a strong sense of will and ego, are very fortunate. Our minds are fickle and can be easily excited by different forms of lust, but when our wills are strong, we can stay the path and not be lured by the sirens this way and that, and lost at sea.

The woman who was a wretch, is an example of someone lost in Hades, same as my experience of weak ego. When we have the help of the Gods, a truth to cling too, as the golden thread, we can find our way through Hades or the labyrinth.
Our culture is so poor compared to Greek culture, for the lack of mythology that would better help us understand ourselves and others. When we understand we are lost in Hades and need the help of the Gods, we begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel. When we think we are powerless and possessed, well- lets say, that is just a very bad belief system.

[CSwriter1]

The law, is a subject for philosophy. What is "the law"? How do we know it? How do we determine truth? Philosophy is the study of "the law", and this has everything to do with politics. We may be spiritual, but we are also political creatures. The confussion of "the law" with religion and politics is intrigging, and begs so many questions.

[Truthbearer]

Truth? How do we determine Truth?
I believe nothing I read, or hear, or see .. I go within and ask Soul.
Is this my Truth?
I ask my body .. I pendulum or muscle-test .. Is this my Truth?
One then transcends all religions, all politics.. all gurus, the whole shebang.

There are no confusions for me CSwriter .. regarding religion or politics.. they become the same.. and therefore have no relevance to Spirit.

My spiritual journey is my own communion with Soul and God/Creator Source.. and the revelations therein.

A religion cannot dictate, nor teach another anything, once one has this Communion, this connection. Because we all have different paths and journeys, different 'agreements' and so forth. One dogma only feeds one dog.
Once one has this connection .. we transcend everything, because we understand.. we know.
And we know, because we ask.
We ask and ask and ask.. Soul.
Not worn out dogmas, beliefs, conditioning.. old spiritual concepts, that have left us wanting more. Because in all truth, many religions only have part of the truth .. part of a key.

For me, the only 'laws' that have any relevance .. are Laws of the Spirit.. these are universal laws.. and we ask our own Souls what they are.
We transcend all man-made laws, as we detach ourselves from governments/'responsiblities' /fears and 'needs'.

Didnt mean to go on there . xxx Pat