Free?

[sahyo]

HE WHO IS TRULY FREE


He who is truly free does not seek pleasures of any kind.
If he seeks any kind of pleasures, he is bound to seeking pleasures.
He who is truly free does not seek fame or wealth.
If he seeks fame or wealth, he is bound to seeking fame or wealth.

He who is truly free does not seek rewards of any kind.
If he seeks any kind of rewards, he is bound to seeking rewards.

He who is truly free does not seek happiness.
If he seeks happiness, he is bound to seeking happiness.

He who is truly free does not seek experience or knowledge.
If he seeks experience or knowledge, he is bound to seeking experience or knowledge.

He who is truly free does not seek God or Brahma.
If he seeks God or Brahma, he is bound to seeking God or Brahma.

He who is truly free does not seek Heaven or Paradise.
If he seeks Heaven or Paradise, he is bound to seeking Heaven or Paradise.

He who is truly free does not seek a Savior or Messiah.
If he seeks a Savior or Messiah, he is bound to seeking a Savior or Messiah.

He who is truly free does not seek Buddha-nature or Emptiness.
If he seeks Buddha-nature or Emptiness, he is bound to seeking Buddha-nature or Emptiness.

He who is truly free does not seek Nirvana or Blissful Land.
If he seeks Nirvana or Blissful Land, he is bound to seeking Nirvana or Blissful Land.

He who is truly free does not seek Now or Presence.
If he seeks Now or Presence, he is bound to seeking Now or Presence.

He who is truly free does not seek eternity or infinite.
If he seeks eternity or infinite, he is bound to seeking eternity or infinite.

He who is truly free does not seek the Empty Mind.
If he seeks the empty Mind, he is bound to seeking the Empty Mind.

He who is truly free does not seek clarity of consicousness.
If he seeks clarity of consciouness, he is bound to seeking it.

He who is truly free does not seek to practice zazen or meditation.
If he seeks to practice zazen or meditation, he is bound to seeking to practice zazen or meditation.

He who is truly free does not seek to become enlightened.
If he seeks to become enlightened, he is bound to seeking to become enlightened.

He who is truly free does not seek peace or security.
If he seeks peace or security, he is bound to seeking peace or security.

He who is truly free does not seek teachers or teachings.
If he seeks teachers or teachings, he is bound to seeking teachers or teachings.

He who is truly free does not seek followers or students.
If he seeks followers or students, he is bound to seeking followers or students.

He who is truly free does not seek the Way.
If he seeks the Way, he is bound to seeking the Way.

He who is truly free does not seek liberation or freedom.
If he seeks liberation or freedom, he is bound to seeking liberation or freedom.

He who is truly free does not seek detachment.
If he seeks detachment and says to his girlfriend or wife something like this:
"I am not attached to you at all, my darling!"
If he says so, he will get a lot of trouble!


- ChonTri

[rich]

:lol: :thumbsup:

[sahyo]

:D

[vicente]

All seeking avoids the Now.

One of the great Christian lie says, "seek and you will find". The truth is, seeking precipitates more seeking. Seeking denies Spirit.

As I've said many times, it is impossible for anyone attached to the Abrahamic religions to realize Enlightenment. What is Enlightenment? Simply let go of your religion, and there it is.

:)

[sonrisa]

good one Asheera! :D

[sahyo]

;) :D

[todd]

If I may extrapolate:

who is truly free does not seek freedom
If he seeks freedom, he is bound to seeking freedom.

Does this mean that freedom cannot ever be found? That you either are born with it or you'll never have it? That we are all condemned to be forever slaves?
Is a God free?

asheera mistaken not :unsure:

[vicente]

Does this mean that freedom cannot ever be found?

Freedom is not discovered, but uncovered

Is a God free?

As long as you think there is a god, you will never realize freedom.

Note: My above use of freedom refers to that which is, when the concept of separate-self dissolves.

:)

[todd]

Does this mean that freedom cannot ever be found? todd
Freedom is not discovered, but uncoveredvicente
I do not see intrinsec or extrinsec character in found

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by todd@Jul 11 2004, 12:27 AM
If I may extrapolate:

who is truly free does not seek freedom
If he seeks freedom, he is bound to seeking freedom.

Does this mean that freedom cannot ever be found? That you either are born with it or you'll never have it? That we are all condemned to be forever slaves?
Is a God free?

asheera mistaken not :unsure:


good insight Todd. Are we ever really free? As long as we gotta scarf up the rent & put food in our bellies, we're gonna be tied to some job or another in order to do it.

Alot of times we wonder why people stay in bad situations, like with an abusive spouse. Walking away is alot easier said than done- having to find a place to live, take care of the kids, etc... it's even more easier said than done if said spouse is paying the bills.

Eventually the situation becomes so untenable that living day to day in a shelterhouse starts looking better than the abusive situation, & so some of these abused spouses do walk out....

Or a job is so crappy that taking one's chances on unemployment looks better than staying in the crappy job, so you leave, hoping you can find a better job quickly....
and the cycle repeats itself....

please note I'm talking about basic survival here. The more attached you are to material things the less free you are, since you have to find ways to hang on to those things

[a random hack]

good insight Todd. Are we ever really free? As long as we gotta scarf up the rent & put food in our bellies, we're gonna be tied to some job or another in order to do it.

Alot of times we wonder why people stay in bad situations, like with an abusive spouse. Walking away is alot easier said than done- having to find a place to live, take care of the kids, etc... it's even more easier said than done if said spouse is paying the bills.

Eventually the situation becomes so untenable that living day to day in a shelterhouse starts looking better than the abusive situation, & so some of these abused spouses do walk out....

Or a job is so crappy that taking one's chances on unemployment looks better than staying in the crappy job, so you leave, hoping you can find a better job quickly....
and the cycle repeats itself....

please note I'm talking about basic survival here. The more attached you are to material things the less free you are, since you have to find ways to hang on to those things

fear, fear, fear, and fear :)

and not necessarily fear of the 'obvious', either <_<

[sonrisa]

oh yes, Random, fear definitely is involved. It hampers & limits us more than anything else, I think. The questions are- can we ever learn to let go of all our fears, to become truly fearless? And if we became truly fearless, would we become free?

[sahyo]

would seeking remain if 'memory' paining fear wasn't imagining 'i' as though a separate 'i'


(not wondering)

[DoWalker]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Jul 12 2004, 12:09 AM
oh yes, Random, fear definitely is involved. It hampers & limits us more than anything else, I think. The questions are- can we ever learn to let go of all our fears, to become truly fearless? And if we became truly fearless, would we become free?
Fear is not the only thing. Anger, also. If we can let go of both, we can be free.

But freedom should not be sought, or we are tied to seeking freedom, right? Then don't seek it. The original quote relates to intentions, not actions. If you practice zazen with the intention of freeing yourself, your intention will get in the way of the actual freedom you seek. If you practice without intention, you may become free, and rejoice in it.

Man, I hope I'm right about that. <_<

Wait! Did I just hope something? That's an attatchment, right? Darn . . . :lol:

[sonrisa]

I was posting about material freedom before, but freedom can mean a lack of attachment to people & ideas, as well as things. So, if we use that as our premise, then a truly free individual would be uncaring & possibly selfish (altho that word implies an attachment to self) doing as s/he pleases without regard to the consequences for others, & flaky, since s/he would waffle between different ideas & opinions.

Perhaps freedom is merely a state of mind- either we are comfortable with our lives & feel free, even tho we have obligations to fulfill, & attachments to family/friends. Or these obligations & attachments feel like millstones weighing us down & we long to be free of them!

[DoWalker]

"Perhaps freedom is merely a state of mind-"

I completely agree. I love the bit where Thoreau sits in jail saying it's not a punishment, because the idea of a jail is that it's a punishment because everyone who is inside wishes they were outside. He realizes that if he makes himself content being inside, then their punishment is powerless!

"I was posting about material freedom before, but freedom can mean a lack of attachment to people & ideas, as well as things. So, if we use that as our premise, then a truly free individual would be uncaring & possibly selfish (altho that word implies an attachment to self) doing as s/he pleases without regard to the consequences for others,"

Yeah. Freedom from attachment without love is a dangerous thing.

"& flaky, since s/he would waffle between different ideas & opinions."

I don't think seeing another's point is waffling. One could argue that until we can explore a thing from outside our own perspective, we cannot cultivate wisdom. I'd say that once a "free" person HAS looked at everything from several perspectives, they'd be pretty stubborn. Most true waffling comes from a fear of sounding stupid, or a desire to be liked. If you're not attached to how people see you, I'd say it contributes to both wisdom and freedom.

As to physical freedom, there are some situations where escaping a situation is impossible, and some where it's difficult, but possible. The latter reqires merely courage, the cultivation of which is a whole other topic, although I see it as growing out of a lack of attachment. Victims of the former situation have my deepest sympathies, and can only try to live with free minds.

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by DoWalker@Jul 19 2004, 12:14 PM

"& flaky, since s/he would waffle between different ideas & opinions."

I don't think seeing another's point is waffling. One could argue that until we can explore a thing from outside our own perspective, we cannot cultivate wisdom.

no, I'm not talking about seeing another person's pov. I'm talking about those flakes who change their own pov's like the rest of us change clothes. They will say one thing & then the next day say the exact opposite, contradictory even. When you remind them of what they said the 1st time they're like, huh? I never said that. Those flakes. You can't take them at their word.