What About 'higher Order' 'drives'?

[DavidS]

Hi Everyone -

There was one other passage (piece of a transcript from a session with an ostensibly 'advanced' client, who also functions as a 'spirit guide', from Michael Newton's Journey of Souls) which struck me as 'making sense' at a 'deep' level, as well as being 'pithy' enough to dog-ear the page of and possibly share. Couldn't find a place in any ongoing conversation to just slide it in as an item of possible interest, so I started a new thread. Any and all comments are welcome. I've colorlighted the words 'driven ' and 'desire' where they occur in the text:
=============

Dr. N: I am curious if the nine members of your company advance in a rather uniform way together under your teaching?

S: That's totally unrealistic.

Dr. N: Why?

S: Because their are differences in character and integrity.

Dr. N: Well, if learning rates are different between souls because of character and integrity, how does this equate with the mental capabilities of the human brain a soul selects?

S: It doesn't. I wasn't speaking of motivation. On Earth we use many variations of the physical brain in the course of our expansion. However, each soul is driven by its integrity.

Dr. N: Is this what you mean by a soul having character?

S: Yes, and intensity of desire is part of character.

Dr. N: If charcter is the identity of a soul, where does desire come in?

S: The drive to excel is internal to each soul, but this too can fluctuate between lives.

Dr. N: So where does a coul's integrity fit into this?

S: The extension of desire. In tegrity is the desire to be honest about Self and motives to such an extent that full awareness of the path to the source is possible.

Dr. N: If all basic intelligent energy is the same, why are sols different in the character and integrity?

S: Because their experiences with physical life change them and his is intentional. By that change new ingredients are added to the collective intelligence of every soul.

Dr. N: And this is what incarnation on Earth is all about?

S: Incarnation is an important tool, yes. Some souls are driven more than others to expand and achieve their potential, but all of us will do so in the end. Being in many physical bodies and different setings expands the nature of our real self.

Dr. N: And this sort of actualization of the soul identity is the purpose of life on our world?

S: On any world.

Dr. N: Well, if each soul is preoccupied with Self, doesn't this explain why we have a corld of self-centered people?

S: No, you misinterpret. Fulfillment is not cultivating Self for selfish means, but allowing for ingetration with others in life. That also shows character and integrity. This is ethical conduct.

===========

Stimulating, I hope you also find it. - David :)

[...]

..stimulating? Not at all, beliefs like these are a mere perpetuation of ignorance worded differently...

[DavidS]

Originally posted by ...@Dec 26 2003, 04:22 AM
..stimulating? Not at all, beliefs like these are a mere perpetuation of ignorance worded differently...
Exquisitely stimulus-response 'performed' 'grinch' there, Dots. I gather you mean that your 'beliefs' ;) are such that they incline you to image·in there's no such thing as atmic 'soul' in 'reality', let alone anything with the developmental dynamics referenced in the piece.

But let me suggest that, even in that case, the piece I submitted would be an 'artful' example of 'image·in·ative' fantasy, not 'ignore·ance' per se . . . that would be a more applicable descriptor of what you are 'doing' (I know, you would say that's its 'ignorant' to image·in that any such 'doing' was the case as well) ... or so it seems to me.

[vicente]

To me, "desire" was a poor choice in words. "Driven" resonates well the phenomenal forces that influence us, each in a different way.

As for soul. Whenever I hear that word it reminds me of a Tibetan saying:
Blessed is he with a soul;
Blessed is he without a soul;
But woe to him that has one in embryo.

All in all, the dialogue is still about extending our concepts into our unknown, instead of surrending those concepts and flowing, that means without predisposition, into the unknown. Of course, once we allow who we think we are to disrobe and cast off our baggage, the bliss will as speak for itself.

Vicente
:)

[Lifebright]

Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment in having let go of all imaginings vis a vis spirit (and there was, at my 'dreaming peak', quite an 'inventory' sitting on the shelves in my 'longing' store from which to choose :) ).

Perhaps, for David, the 'opposite' is true - go, David, go! B)

[sahyo]

lifebright:

Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment in having let go of all imaginings


and my receivers 'feel' that you wish no separation, no difference, 'just' sameness...correct me if I am 'feeling' you 'wrongly'...

lifebright thinkingfeeling'imagining'whichnot

[thirst4sun]

Stimulating..........YES :)

[Lifebright]

asheera:

<_< :o :lol:

[...]

I gather you mean that your 'beliefs' are such that they incline you to image·in there's no such thing as atmic 'soul' in 'reality', let alone anything with the developmental dynamics referenced in the piece.

No David, there's no reason to imagine such- or no such thing as souls exist...

But let me suggest that, even in that case, the piece I submitted would be an 'artful' example of 'image·in·ative' fantasy, not 'ignore·ance' per se . . . that would be a more applicable descriptor of what you are 'doing' (I know, you would say that's its 'ignorant' to image·in that any such 'doing' was the case as well) ... or so it seems to me.

What about this 'artful' example of 'image·in·ative' fantasy-bit is true? Obviously it isn't, so why peddling it for something else but the lie it is?

[sahyo]

Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment in having let go of all imaginings

wouldn't have posted "Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment" if imagining had ceased, lifebright

[Lifebright]

wouldn't have posted "Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment" if imagining had ceased, lifebright

asheera caring about tensing of words, eternity not give a d**n

:)

[DavidS]

Stimulating..........YES

Hey, I'm glad the piece 'sang' to you as well, T4S!

To me, "desire" was a poor choice in words. "Driven" resonates well the phenomenal forces that influence us, each in a different way.

What you say, 'capsulizes' my thoughts and sentiments regarding the matter(s) addressed as well. vicente. (IMO) very well put.

Perhaps, for David, the 'opposite' [of Lifebright's ex·peer·ience] is true - go, David, go!

Thanks for the 'cheer', Lifebright. This cowboy is zingin' along, singin' his song, ... yahooooo! :D

S: . . . each soul is driven by its integrity. . .

'I' (i.e., 'my' personal, unique-to-me, 'mind-n-heart') 'relates' to this because 'I' am 'aware' that when 'I' am not 'true' to 'my' 'self' (in this case meaning 'my' 'values' pertaining to 'relationship' with 'myself', 'others', or 'Life' (in general), I don't 'feel' as 'happy' as when I am 'true' to such 'values'. I am also 'aware' that 'I' 'prefer' to be maximally 'happy'. Thus, postulating a 'integrity' 'drive', makes complete sense to me. In terms of 'my' 'subjective' ex·peer·ience (which is the only kind of ex·peer·ience I 'know') , the (postulated) 'possibility' strikes 'me' as 'probably' being 'true', at least more so than 'probably' being' a 'lie', so I proceed on the basis of 'believing' what S states in this regard, even while remaining open to the possibility that my ex·peer·ience in this regard may 'change' and that 'my' 'opinion'/'belief' in this regard may therefore 'change' as well. 'Your' 'awareness', deriving from 'your' subjective ex·peer·ience, apparently leads you to 'believe' with total certainty that what is postulated in the statement is an unqualified 'lie', Dots. Vive la difference!

S: The drive to excel is internal to each soul, . . .

This also has a 'ring' of 'truth' to 'me', Dots, though 'I' certainly don't 'agree' with the use of word/concept 'excel' - it is not a word/concept I would have chosen to express what 'I' am ex·peer·ientially 'aware' of in this regard. 'I' am 'aware' of being 'happier' when 'I' 'do' 'my' 'best', that is, when 'I' 'fully' ('maximally'?) exercise 'my' response-ability, such as it may be at any given moment, in relation to any given choices in terms of possible 'actions'.

S: . . . Integrity is the desire to be honest about Self and motives . . .

'My' 'I' certainly seems to be 'geared' to want to 'be' 'honest' with 'myself' and 'others' in this regard. At least, 'I' am 'aware' of the fact that when 'my' 'situation' is such that 'political' considerations lead me to be less than 'maximally' so (in terms of what 'I' am 'able' to be), 'I' end up being 'less' 'happy' than when such is not the case. And 'I' am aware of 'prefering' to be 'maximally' 'happy', so the notion of 'desiring' or 'being driven' to be so qualifies as referencing some aspect of 'the truth' (pertaining to 'me' and 'my' relationships), at least more so than representing a 'lie' in these regards - though, for 'you' among others (like Lifebright) the 'opposite' may indeed be the case. Might it be possible for you to 'relax' enough to actually honor "Chacun a son gout." as a relational/loving 'principle' (like Lifebright), Dots, instead of (habitually?) 'choosing' to 'put down' 'others' who think-n-feel 'differently' (than 'you') as 'ignorant' 'lie'-'believers'? Only if, upon further reflection, that 'accords' with the 'dictates' (or 'requirments') of your own 'integrity' or personal and relational 'value system', of course.

[Lifebright]

Thanks for the 'cheer', Lifebright. This cowboy is zingin' along, singin' his song, ... yahooooo!

My itch is scratched, yours is not. So what? It's all good. B)

[Lifebright]

asheera:

wording, wording
covering me
many, few
hiding be

mattering not
love sees through
speakings all
touch me :) you

[sahyo]

wouldn't have posted "Personally, I experience much liberation/peace/contentment" if imagining had ceased, lifebright


asheera caring about tensing of words, eternity not give a d**n

:lol: no not "about tensing of words" like lifebright would like to think

[sahyo]

wording, wording
covering me
many, few
hiding be

mattering not
love sees through
speakings all
touch me you


wording,
not,
cannot,
"covering"

"covering"?

[Lifebright]

wording,
not,
cannot,
"covering"

"covering"?

lifebright not desiring (yes, desiring) to explain every word that appears dualistic to asheera...most tiring... :blink: :wacko: -_-

[sahyo]

lifebright 'assuming' is about "dualistic"

:)

[Lifebright]

tell lifebright what asheera meaning...no more zenning...pullleeeze!?

:angry: :)

[Lifebright]

oh, and asheera 'not allowed' to tell lifebright that she is not zenning... :P :D

lifebright desires asheera's meaning or communication between asheera and lifebright cannot live... :(

[Lifebright]

lifebright-oystering thanking asheera-grain-of-sanding

:wub: 'goodbyeing' :wub:

[DavidS]

Originally posted by Lifebright@Dec 30 2003, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the 'cheer', Lifebright. This cowboy is zingin' along, singin' his song, ... yahooooo!

My itch is scratched, yours is not. So what? It's all good. B)
New 'game' of Life 'horizons' beckon. I will undoubtedly be 'checking in' occasionally to see what's happening (or not ;) ) here, but probably won't be 'engaging' because of (limited) time-n-energy considerations. I can be reached via the email address on my profile page if anyone who wants to keep in touch. It's been great playing in the same sand-box with y'all!

Not that my 'vision' is the same as his, but I leave strongly recommending Thomas Moore's The Soul's Religion. His appreciation (and the clarity of his exposition) of some the many oft-unrecognized 'pitfalls' which often be·devil folks 'dedicated' to walking (or just 'occupying positions on' ;) ) spiritual 'paths' is tops (IMO)!

From the back cover (quoting a passage in the book): "To be spiritual is to be taken over by a mysterious divine compulsion to manifest some aspect of life's deepest force. We become most who we are when we allow the spirit to dismember us, unsettling our plans and understandings, remaking us from our very foundations. Nothing is more challenging, nothing less sentimental, than the invitation of spirit to become who we are and not who we think we ought to be."

It is all 'good', indeed. Ciao! - David :)

[Lifebright]

Hi David

From the back cover (quoting a passage in the book): "To be spiritual is to be taken over by a mysterious divine compulsion to manifest some aspect of life's deepest force. We become most who we are when we allow the spirit to dismember us, unsettling our plans and understandings, remaking us from our very foundations. Nothing is more challenging, nothing less sentimental, than the invitation of spirit to become who we are and not who we think we ought to be."

I feel compelled ;) to come back for one last kick at the can here at thebigview (my visit here was short, but delightfully-'arghhhhfully' memorable) in order to respond to your 'ciao' post...kinda fits into Moore's back cover wisdom 'bite', methinks:

Perhaps we are here to think/feel the duality of life until it wounds us so completely, so utterly, that we completely, utterly human-not human be?

Wishing you the best in whatever your itch brings to light! :wub:

Lifebright

[sahyo]

tha :wub: lifebright nking

[sahyo]

;)