Time To Celebrate! [Archive]

vicente

9th November 2003, 01:27 AM

Through history, especially eurocentric history, eclipses were taught to be fearful events,...even I, as a child, was instructed to remain in the house during these celestial enveilings. It wasn't until 1994 that I understood the significance of eclipses, during my work with Nature Spirits while co-building sacred spaces; that is, reorganizing and connecting a space to the Earths grid.

Many places, buildings, spaces, etc may be on or near a ley line, but that does not mean it is connected to it. Nor does a Sacred Space have to be near a ley line to get connected,...for there are methods to "craddle in" a space/structure to the grid.

During an eclipse, the electromagnetic charged latticed grid around the Earth, the individual ley lines, substantially narrows, thus allowing a window of opportunity to connect the new Sacred Space to the grid. There are no Ambrahamic religious spaces, to my knowledge, that are connected to the grid, although they have certainly built many of their structures upon older sacred sites. Barbara Hand Clow addresses some of this in her 'Pleiadian Agenda'.

Those who were, and are, aware of Natures mechanics, attach Sacred Space to the grid similar to how one would add an electrical recepticle to a home. This is to say that the recepticle or Sacred Space is built, and then, when the power is turned off, connected to the grid, whether it be the homes electrical grid, or the Earths EM grid.

With the above in mind, consider how much transformation, transcending and Ascension Consciousness can be realized during an eclipse. Yes, I understand this may be new information for many, but grasping what occurs during an eclipse is of great importance to everyone, whatever their current level of spiritual awareness. This understanding will literally be the difference between Ascension and being 'left behind' during the Great Shift.

Although eclipses are quite significant in themselves, the Harmonic Concordance is far more consequential, as the energy of the Star of David, the Conscious imprisioning energy of the Ambrahamic religions, will be exposed to Nature herself. Even the Sun appears to realize this, and is sending wave after wave of increased EM radiation from CME's in an attempt to block the truth from being seen.

For those here wishing to understand the spiritual value of a reduced electromagnetic field, I recommend the following article:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

Vicente
:)

DavidS

9th November 2003, 03:17 AM

I 'celebrate' even such 'outwardly focused' cerebration ;) , vicente. Though individual or group interpretations pertaining to the ways that bones, tea leaves, and planets 'align themselves are certainly not 'infallible' guides to 'truth', I personally am a great 'believer' (as you seem to also be in this case ;) ) in the meaningfulness of 'synchonicities'.

sahyo

9th November 2003, 03:44 AM

is seeming"I"personally"believer"?

I personally am a great 'believer' (as you seem to also

thoughtentity"I"personally"believer"? ;)

DavidS

9th November 2003, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by asheera@Nov 8 2003, 02:44 PM
is seeming"I"personally"believer"?

I personally am a great 'believer' (as you seem to also

thoughtentity"I"personally"believer"? ;)
asheera -

Please know that I always try to understand and relate to whatever 'meanings' or 'concerns' or 'suggestions' your words are 'designed' to 'convey' - but in most cases, as above, I can't even conjure up a 'foggy' idea of what you these may be.

If you want to have a mutually meaningful dialogue, you will have to ex·press yourself in a way that I can understand.

Please keep this in mind when and as I don't respond to statement/queries directed meward in the future.

Letting-go-with-love - David :)

rich

9th November 2003, 10:54 AM

Not to be Disrespectful or Respectful to The POV of Earth's Shadow on
the Moon, but does It have a Caring POV ? :wacko: :lol:

shifu

10th November 2003, 06:01 PM

the removal of the cancer of the Abrahmic religions can begin… and the hate driven Abrahamic religions will be transcended.

What a good news Sir, you mean to say our God forsaken Abrahamic religion will then be purified thus, authenticated as what had been written in the Revelation? :rolleyes:

shifu

rich

28th November 2003, 02:50 AM

It would be nice if all could be thankful for the positive things they have, rather than complaining about things they do not have.

Be thankful for what?

Breath, color, sight, sound, smell, touch and understanding.

Be thankful to whom? :o

To THAT, the creative mind of everything. ]

Why? :unsure:

Why not? :)

rich

28th November 2003, 08:52 AM

From Beliefnet Inspiration
If the only prayer you ever say in your entire life is thank you, it will be enough.

- Meister Eckhart

zygoat

3rd December 2003, 07:07 AM

However, several more 9-11 size shocks may occur to shake the deeply rooted beliefs people hold onto for their identity, and allow the clarity to see that knowledge is in the past, thus an obstacle to the Now.
CELEBRATE
VICENTE
:(

sonrisa

5th December 2003, 01:23 PM

relax Zygoat, I do not like the idea of that level of violence myself, but sometimes it takes a catastrophe, or a number of them, to get us out of our comfort zones & motivate us towards real constructive change. You gotta be able to see the cockroaches in order to deal with them. A few weekends ago I attended a seminar & one of the workshops was conducted by 2 women who have a holistic view of what is going on in the world & the events leading up to 2012. It's rather interesting- from their pov Gaea (Earth) is a living entity herself & the life she sustains needs to live in a symbiotic relationship with her. In other words, in order to be sustained by the Earth, we must live sustainably with the Earth, something we as a society have gotten away from. The violence & evil (for lack of a better word) that has been rampant for the past several decades, & will continue is a physical manfestation of Gaea purging herself of of the toxins of our unsustanable culture in prepararation for the start of a new cycle in 2012. I hope that makes sense, it is the best way I can put it in my own words. To use a metaphor from the workshop, you gotta be able to see what's in the closet in order to clean it out.

As I said, I don't like the idea of violence & suffering any more than you. Sometimes you just gotta step back, take a breath, & look at these things from the metaphysical perspective (the events around us are merely physical manifestations of the greater metaphysical process, after all) & remember that those who suffer from such violent & horrific events are, on the metaphysical level, working out something in their respective karmas, just as you & I are working out things in our respective karmas via the events, both good & bad, in our lives. :)

rich

5th December 2003, 08:22 PM

sonrisa posted:[color=gray]The violence & evil (for lack of a better word) that has been rampant for the past several decades, & will continue is a physical manfestation of Gaea purging herself of of the toxins of our unsustanable culture in prepararation for the start of a new cycle in 2012. I hope that makes sense, it is the best way I can put it in my own words. To use a metaphor from the workshop, you gotta be able to see what's in the closet in order to clean it out.


2012? What do you think may happen then? Only 10 years to go,
and the odds for me to make it, are very slim. But what are your concerns? :unsure: :) ;)

sonrisa

7th December 2003, 01:27 AM

Richie, I seem to nemember that you were taking bets on that awhile back....

rich

7th December 2003, 07:45 AM

sonrisa, history repeats itself, but what is to happen in 2012?

Many folks thought that on midnight of 12/31/99, was the end of the world. Is 2012, the year that some catastrophe is going to happen, a continuation 0f preparation for dooms day? What does sonrisa think? :unsure: :blink: :P

DavidS

7th December 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by rich@Dec 5 2003, 07:22 AM
2012? What do you think may happen then? Only 10 years to go ...
Nein, 9, richie :lol:

rich

8th December 2003, 08:26 AM

Nine? You are right! How time flies. :lol: ;) :D

zygoat

9th December 2003, 07:35 AM

sonrisa saysthat those who suffer from such violent & horrific events are, on the metaphysical level, working out something in their respective karmas, WHAT?????

All of the innocent people on those planes that day,all of the firefighters,all of the people in the towers,all of the people in the Pentagon, were just working out something in their respective karmas,are you freakin' serious??? :angry:

a random hack

9th December 2003, 10:43 AM

zygoat, not their karmas, our karma.

DavidS

11th December 2003, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by a random hack@Dec 8 2003, 09:43 PM
zygoat, not their karmas, our karma.
Right on (IMO), hack. 'Ours' including 'theirs', of course.

zygoat

11th December 2003, 09:56 AM

hack and david

are you freakin' serious???

a random hack

11th December 2003, 10:31 AM

goat,

What's the problem?

DavidS

11th December 2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 10 2003, 08:56 PM
hack and david

are you freakin' serious???
Why? Aren't you? :lol:

Seriously thoug, I suspect that you and I have very different notions pertaining to what 'karma' is how 'it' operates. As far as my 'seriousness' is concerned, I do happen to think-n-believe that, like 'separatness' (yours, mine, ours, theirs, etc), 'randomness' is just a 'superficial' feature of Reality which pertains only to the 'world' of 'appearances'. At a deeper level, what is and 'happens' to everything/everyone is all part of one multidimensional, exquisitely interconnected/interconnection, node·ally 'alive' (we are each 'nodes') wave-pattern with and (so) there are really no 'accidents'.

Though I am not 'alone' in thinking-n-believing along the above liines, I don't expect you to, and also don't wish to 'argue' about something which is essentially 'mathematically unprovable' (one way or the other). I present the above simply to convey the fact that, yes indeed, my statement was completely 'serious'.

Sincerely - David

zygoat

12th December 2003, 07:06 AM

over 3,000 people dying at the hands of religious zealots,is due to karma....
you do bad things ,bad things happen to you,is that what you are saying is your belief?
o.k.
accidents don't really happen?
you reached for the paper,but when you grabbed it,ouch PAPER CUT,that was supposed to happen?,that was already in the gameplan on some higher plan??!!
some metaphysical aspect took the time to map it out that on dec.11th david S will reach for paper and cut his finger??

all this said,who decides the punishment when it comes to karma?
19 islamic youths decided that the secretary on the fourteenth floor must die because she took someone's candy or cheated on her math test?and the fireman wasn't really sick when he called out of work?

a random hack

12th December 2003, 09:11 AM

my understanding of karma suggests, that if you didn't reach for the paper, you wouldn't get paper cut :)

...

12th December 2003, 05:49 PM

..karma suggests a goal, which suggests a beginning, which suggest meaning, which suggests deity and from that last suggestion on Sinfest (http://www.sinfest.net) a can 'o whoop ass is opened...

zygoat

14th December 2003, 10:19 PM

so don't ever reach for paper and you will never get cut,what a life,,, :(

...

15th December 2003, 04:34 PM

..or simply don't mind the papercut...

rich

15th December 2003, 08:45 PM

don't blame karma, blame yourself, if you must blame someone. :mellow:

DavidS

16th December 2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 11 2003, 06:06 PM
accidents don't really happen?
I suppose that's one way of rephrasing my statement which was that there are really no accidents.

(IMO) The concept of 'karma' is complex and open to many different kinds of interpretations on many different levels, zygoat. To me personally it just means that one's life ('boat') will 'go' in the 'direction' that it is 'headed' towards, unless, of course, one uses one's thought-n-feeling 'rudder' to change one's directional 'heading'. And that's just the 'Newtonian' version. ;) There are, of course, 'individual' variations within the group 'ship' in this regard. Regarding 9-11, I though-n-still-think that 'we' had been 'heading' 'there' for a very loooong time. Was only surprised that something like that didn't 'happen' sooner.

Because there are many different, but each valid in it's own way at least on some level, interpretations and applications of the concept, it is not something I wish to 'argue' about, as I said. If you are 'really' interested (and there's no reason why you 'should' be) in what I personally happen to think-n-feel about what it is and isn't and how it operates or doesn't, I would say that what I think-n-feel regarding the matter is pretty much 'contained' in the world-view and explanation of the dynamics of life presented in Seth Speaks, by Jane Roberts.

Again, there is no reason you or anyone else 'should' choose to read that book. It is not even a 'suggestion', only an 'offering' in case you are 'really' interested in knowing what I personally happen think about the matter and why. It's a kind of You 'create' your own 'reality'" and 'We' conjointly create 'our' (conjoint, of course) 'reality' approach to Life. Should you happen to read it, you will among other things notice, that there is no such thang as 'punishment'.

I also happen to think that 'framing' issues pertaining to one's personal 'condition' in particular as well as the human 'condition' in general in terms of 'karma' can be quite misleading and counterproductive if one's 'notions' and 'understandings' pertaining to 'karma' are over-simple, which in a great many cases, IMO, they are. In my own book which deals with Life in general, regarding 'karma' I wrote:

In the past, because we were generally so juvenile, those who were in a position to be parental, for the most part, merely attempted to control and channel selfishness to prevent it from becoming a plague. In addition to using approval and censure as means of motivation, religious leaders and teachers held out promises of future rewards (such as the surcease of pain, escape from the yoke of earthly toil, and attainment of paradises of various sorts) to induce people to be helpful. And they used threats of future punishment and suffering (such as 'bad' karma, and hellish torments of many kinds) to deter those who weren't positively disposed from being callous and negligent. Their strategy was materially seconded by potentates and governing agents who instituted and administered systems of practical reinforcement and impedance, proportionately granting social status and privilege for various kinds and degrees of constructive behavior and imposing a graded set of penalties for acts that were destructive.

However, as those involved with the bringing up of children have firsthand opportunity to learn, promises and threats as well as bribes and sanctions are useless in many situations, particularly with certain kinds of personalities. Furthermore, employed beyond a certain point, such measures can be quite counterproductive. They only affect those who are timid and dependent in the first place, not anyone either bold or desperate. And they only condition them to behave like lower animals at that—for what they can thereby personally get or avoid. So, though they may act well in some ways, they remain or even become more selfish at heart. Besides requiring an inordinate amount of energy to equitably implement and being quite fallible at that, since they focus attention on what might be personally gained or lost, policies based on such principles often serve to retard and prevent what we most need now—the development of true conscience and genuine altruistic spirit.

I hope the above helps you 'make sense' of my 'position' regarding the concept of 'karma'.

Sincerely - David

DavidS

16th December 2003, 03:40 AM

Hi again, zygoat -

What follows may be quite 'foreign', to the point of seeming 'ridiculous', to someone/anyone who doesn't know about and believe in the notion of our having 'souls', 'reincarnating', 'choosing significant aspects of our next life situations' (which falls into the category as 'creating your reality' - by 'choice'), etc.

However, I do; so what follows is quite acceptable/understandable and 'normal' to me. I offer it, so you might understand why and how I look at and feel about things like 9·11 the way I do. It is an excerpt from the last page of Chapter 12 of Journey of Souls, by Michael Newton, which is based on what he has learned and collated from his practice as a hypnotherapist who routinely (meaning in many cases) 'regresses' people in trance to the end of their prior life, and then 'progresses' them first through their death, then through their after-life (or I sould say between-life) experiences, until they finally reach and explore the decision point where they 'chose' their current life situation.

The book, which I highly recommend as both interesting and informative, includes quite a few transcripts of sessions between him and his clients. I posted a quote from this same book before, 'addressed' to vicente; but, as I am continuing to read it, just today reached this passage which I thought 'addressed' some of your concerns.

The excerpt summarizes some of the conclusions Dr. Newton arrived at on the basis of what his clients revealed in the course of sessions with them:

Spirits do not routinely [my emphasis] see their deaths in future lives [my addtion: as they preview and make elective choices in this regards]. If souls choose a life where their death will be premature, they often see it in the place of life selection [meaning in the 'location' where they go to screen-preview make such choices]. I have found that souls essentially volunteer [his italics] in advance for bodies who will have sudden fatal illnesses, are to be killed by someone, or come to an abrupt end of life with many others from a catastrophic event. Souls who become involved in these tragedies are not caught in the wrong place at the wrong time with a capricious God looking the other way [or, I might add, due to some sort of capricious 'karma']. Every soul has a motive for the events in which it chooses to participate. One client told me his last life was planned in advance to end at seven years of age as an American Indian boy. He said, "I was looking for a short-burst lesson in humility and this life as a mistreated starving half-breed was enough."

Another, more graphic example of a soul volunteering for a terrible assignment was that of one of my subjects who elected in her last life to join (with three others of her soul group) the bodies of Jewish women taken from Munich into the death camp at Dachau in 1941. All were assigned to the same barracks (also prearranged) where my client died in 1943 at age 18 comforting the children and trying to help them survive. Her mission was accomplished with courage.

a random hack

16th December 2003, 07:58 AM

so don't ever reach for paper and you will never get cut,what a life,,, :(
..or simply don't mind the papercut...
...or, can understand that actions have consequences, and then not go thru life being shocked by papercuts... :D

zygoat

19th December 2003, 10:48 AM

ar andom hack,
i was responding to DavidS'sAt a deeper level, what is and 'happens' to everything/everyone is all part of one multidimensional, exquisitely interconnected/interconnection, node·ally 'alive' (we are each 'nodes') wave-pattern with and (so) there are really no 'accidents'.

so neverminding the cut has nothing to do with accidents not really happening,it apparently was written in the stars that you were going to get cut as a result of some celestial cerebral game plan that was decided long ago,nodually speaking!

DavidS

22nd December 2003, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 18 2003, 09:48 PM
so neverminding the cut has nothing to do with accidents not really happening, it apparently was written in the stars that you were going to get cut as a result of some celestial cerebral game plan that was decided long ago, nodually speaking!
:D the way you put it, zygoat!

Let me clarify what I understand-think-believe regarding what you said (how well or not is up for 'subjective'- assessment 'grabs' :) )

Yes, the BIG, most 'challenging' in terms of 'learning' 'paper cuts' may be (most likely are) the 'result' of pre-this-life 'game plan'; the 'small stuff' paper cuts, however, I would say are much more local choice-and-decision, here-and-now, in-present-lifetime personal attitude-and-intention Life-hose-flow generated.

No 'accidents' in either case, though. In my view, nothing that 'happens' is truly 'random' - there's a 'reason' why some people more often step into 'sh*it' and/or have 'sh*tier ex·peer·iences when they do (same 'spectrum' differentiation pertains to 'glorious' kinds of happenings and ex·peer·iences as well). I'm sure you've heard and wondered about 'accident prone' people. Generalize the 'conclusion' that such a 'sequence' is not 'accidental' and you'll see what things looks like through my spectacles.
:)

sonrisa

27th December 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by rich@Dec 6 2003, 08:45 PM
sonrisa, history repeats itself, but what is to happen in 2012?

Many folks thought that on midnight of 12/31/99, was the end of the world. Is 2012, the year that some catastrophe is going to happen, a continuation 0f preparation for dooms day? What does sonrisa think? :unsure: :blink: :P
My my, y'all been bizzy since I been gone.... Sorry to be so long in replying Richie, but between Christmas & work, all I've had time to do online these past few weeks is clean out my mailboxes. But now that the Holidaze are upon us & I can kick back & chill.... I'm ba-ack!! :D

To answer your question, according to the Mayas, the current Age of Civilization will come to an end on or around Christmas Eve 2012, & a new Age will commence. According to one version of this prophecy, the lights & appliances are supposed to go haywire, but I'm thinking whoever (mis?)interpreted it may have been confusing power grids with the Earth grids. Vicente's explanation about the Earth grids makes more sense. But who knows, some massive solar flares or maybe a comet passing to close to the Earth at that time could mess up the power grids & start some kind of worldwide havoc.
The book Native American Prophecies by Scott Peterson talks about a chalice of fire & firey ornaments descending to Earth. This was on one of those cable science channels a few months back: Apparantly Yellowstone sits in the caldera of something known as a supervolcano. This thing blows every 600,000 years or so (a chalice of fire?), & the last time it blew was some 600,000 years ago, give or take a couple centuries. Now I am NOT suggesting that Yellowstone is gonna go up on Christmas Eve in the year 2012, just that it would be a really bizarre coincidence if it did.

sonrisa

27th December 2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 8 2003, 08:35 PM

All of the innocent people on those planes that day,all of the firefighters,all of the people in the towers,all of the people in the Pentagon, were just working out something in their respective karmas,are you freakin' serious???
as a heart attack.

That's the whole point, why we're stuck in these bodies in 3-d space/time- we're all working out stuff in our respective karmas. Sometimes our karmas merge into a group karma, as what happened with the people involved in 9/11. Then there's mass karma, or as Random puts it, our karma: in other words, why are we all stuck in our bodies now, instead of, say 100 years from now, or 100 years ago. We are all working out something in the here & now. I don't have a clue about senseless stuff such as 9/11, & don't pretend to understand it. Hell I have enough trouble trying to figure out my own karma, much less trying to figure out somebody elses.

But that's basically it- working out karma. Like Random sez, what's the problem? Kick back Zygoat, pour yourself some eggnog. :)

zygoat

29th December 2003, 07:28 AM

sonrisa,
I don't have a clue about senseless stuff such as 9/11, & don't pretend to understand it. Hell I have enough trouble trying to figure out my own karma, much less trying to figure out somebody elses.
you would be able to face the children of the victims of that fateful day and attempt to feed them that CRAP about collective karmas or mass karmas? you are a sick individual if you can!! as mentioned above ,you don't have a clue about( "senseless"?) stuff such as 9/11 & don't pretend to understand it....then what are you replying for?????????????????/ :angry:

DavidS

31st December 2003, 02:17 AM

I don't know what sonrisa's thought-n-feelings might be in response to your (apparent) 'challenge', zygoat, but, I'd like to put in my 2¢ in these regards:

you would be able to face the children of the victims of that fateful day and attempt to feed them that CRAP about collective karmas or mass karmas?

IMO, it ain't 'CRAP', and yes, I would be able to - would 'time' any such (attempted) 'feeding' to when I thought any such children might be 'ready' or 'hungry' for it, however, as 'evidenced' by their 'opening' the topic by 'questioning' the 'sense' of such 'occurrence' (as you have here).

you are a sick individual if you can!!

I presume your (subjective) 'judgment' of me would be that I am 'sick', in that case.

as mentioned above ,you don't have a clue about( "senseless"?) stuff such as 9/11 & don't pretend to understand it....then what are you replying for?????????????????

This is an 'open' forum discussion, zygoat, where everyone/anyone is operationally 'welcome' to express what things look-n-feel their 'point' of 'view'. As far as I am concerned, every response 'adds' 'perspective' to the discussion (if nothing else, it's an opportunity for readers to get to 'know' the person, or at least to 'consider' the personal philosophy (something which they may not be 'familiar' with), of anyone 'replying'. Plenty of 'reason' to 'reply' (IMO), even if one's 'understanding' pertaining to the specifics of any matter is less than 'certain' or 'full' (which, in my view, is 'true' of everyone, including 'me' and 'you', here).

To carry the discussion further let me ask you about your personal philosophy - Since we all sooner or later die by various 'means', what mode(s) (or kinds of 'proximate cause') of physical death, if any, do you find 'sense·ible'? And why do you find that 'sense·ible' (assuming you do) in contrast to the 9·11 'stuff' which you apparently regard as 'senseless' and find more emotionally 'troubling'? In particular, is the death of the many more thousands in the recent Iran earthquake less 'senseless' and 'troublesome' to you? If so, what 'reasons' can you come up with why so?

Sincerely - David.

zygoat

31st December 2003, 05:48 AM

DavidS,
in contrast to the 9·11 'stuff' which you apparently regard as 'senseless' these are sonrisa's words NOT mine!!!

In particular, is the death of the many more thousands in the recent Iran earthquake less 'senseless' and 'troublesome' to you? If so, what 'reasons' can you come up with why so? apparently it was just that all 20,ooo of the victims had it coming because of there mass karma according to you and sonrisa,right? :(

vicente

31st December 2003, 06:32 AM

There seems to be a misinterpretation regarding the supervolcano at Yellowstone and native Americans 'chalice of fire',...I agree that the Yellowstone caldera is quite volatile, but 600,000 years ago it was in the Pacific. It traveled east until it ran into the tectonic plate, where it now sits.

As for the causalities of 9-11. What is sick, is the Republican Chickenhawk assertion that they were innocent victims. We, at least I, live in a democracy, and as such, am responsible for the hateful, murderous leadership, of whom Martin Luther King stated in 1967, "My government is the world's leading purveyor of violence."

If it wasn't for American elected hate, injustice, Christian ideals, etc., there would not have been terrorists stealing planes and crashing them into buildings. Of course, if Bush wasn't looking for an excuse to invade Afganistan and Iraq, those hijackers would have never been allowed to take those planes.

Americans, unfortunately media-ted by hateful, conservative controlled News Agencies, have been blinded to the real enemy's of its Nation. That enemy more domestic, than foriegn,...that enemy is the rightwing christian republican party.

For example:

Bible Belt missionaries set out on a 'war for souls' in Iraq
27/12/2003
US Christian evangelists want to "save Muslim souls" in Iraq

American Christian missionaries have declared a "war for souls" in
Iraq, telling supporters that the formal end of the US-led occupation
next June will close an historic "window of opportunity".

Organising in secrecy, and emphasising their humanitarian aid work,
Christian groups are pouring into the country, which is 97 per cent
Muslim, bearing Arabic language christian Bibles, videos and religious tracts designed
to "save" Muslims from their "false" religion.

The International Mission Board, the missionary arm of the Southern
Baptists, is one of those leading the charge.

John Brady, the IMB's head for the Middle East and North Africa, this
month appealed to the 16 million members of his church, the largest
Protestant denomination in America.

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be
opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for
Christians may soon close.

"Southern Baptists must understand that there is a war for souls
under way in Iraq," his bulletin added, listing Islamic leaders
and "pseudo-Christian" groups also flooding Iraq as his chief rivals.

The missionaries are mainly evangelicals who reject talk of Muslims
and Christians worshipping the same God.

Jerry Vines, former head of the Southern Baptist Convention, has
described the Prophet Mohammed as a "demon-obsessed paedophile".
Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and the head of Samaritan's
Purse, a big donor to Iraq, has described Islam as a "very evil and
wicked religion".

Jon Hanna, an evangelical from Ohio who has recently returned from
Iraq, applied for a new passport to travel there, describing himself
as a humanitarian worker. "I was worried the US authorities might try
to stop us, might be worried we were going to start a riot with our
Bibles."

In Baghdad last month Mr Hanna met two other American missionary
teams. One, from Indiana, had shipped in 1.3 million Christian
tracts. "A US passport is all you need to get in, until the new Iraqi
government takes over. What we thought was a two-year window,
originally, has narrowed down to a six month window," said Mr Hanna,
an evangelical minister and editor of Connection Magazine, a
Christian newspaper in Ohio.

He describes Islam as "false". He cited St John's Gospel,
saying: "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the
Christ. Such a man is the antichrist."

Mr Hanna concluded: "The Muslim religion is an antichrist religion."
Later Mr Hanna asked to retract that choice of words. "Without the
reader hearing my voice and looking into my eyes as I made that
statement, it would be easy for certain readers to feel personally
attacked and be offended," Mr Hanna wrote by email. "That would be
unfruitful."

He rejected the suggestion that aid work was a "cover" for missionary
work, preferring to call it a "conduit for sharing the gospel of
Jesus. Christians are commanded to minister to the hungry, but also
to the hunger of the spirit. It can't be separated," he said.

In public, the largest groups put the emphasis on their delivery of
food parcels and their medical work. However, their internal fund-
raising materials emphasise mission work. One IMB bulletin reported
aid workers handing out copies of the New Testament and praying with
Muslim recipients. Another bulletin said Iraqis understood "who was
bringing the food . . . it was the Christians from America."

Southern Baptists from North Carolina visited Iraq in October to help
hand out 45,000 boxes of donated food. One of the team, Jim Walker,
told IMB's Urgent News bulletin that he met village children "starved
of attention and I could tell some of them have not eaten well. But
their biggest need is to know the love of Christ."

Mr Hanna said he encountered friendly curiosity, with noisy crowds
gathering to take his group's tracts. "Maybe 10 per cent were
hostile." He was one of 21 on his mission including Jackie Cone, 72,
a Pentecostalist grandmother from Ohio who said God had told her to
join a second mission planned for next year. "I sensed Him telling me
to come back in January," she said.

Mrs Cone is confident she made converts in Baghdad. In her hotel she
met a Muslim woman on crutches with a leg operation due that day. Mrs
Cone knelt on the lobby floor and prayed that surgery would not be
required.

"I saw her that evening and she said God had healed her, and she
hadn't needed the surgery. She didn't say Allah, she pointed to
Heaven and gave God the glory," she said.

Mrs Cone led the Kurdish woman and her brother in prayer, asking
Jesus into their hearts. "I'd given them a Bible and a Jesus video in
Arabic. I think they think of themselves as Christians now," she
said. "They have the Bible and I hope they will grow in grace."

Muslims are hard converts, American missionaries admit. The large
organisations have experts trained in refuting Muslim teachings that
Jesus is just another prophet.

Before going to Iraq, Mr Hanna studied Christian training manuals and
attended a seminar for missionaries to the Arab world.

Mr Hanna concedes his new Iraqi friends were possibly drawn by the
novelty of meeting Americans. "But you don't discount that, you use
it as an opportunity to tell them about Jesus. Last time we only took
8,000 Arabic Bibles to Iraq. In future missions the goal is one
million."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html

sonrisa

31st December 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 28 2003, 08:28 PM
sonrisa,
I don't have a clue about senseless stuff such as 9/11, & don't pretend to understand it. Hell I have enough trouble trying to figure out my own karma, much less trying to figure out somebody elses.
you would be able to face the children of the victims of that fateful day and attempt to feed them that CRAP about collective karmas or mass karmas?

My cousin-in-law's nephew was in one of the WTCs when they went down. He was in is 20's, had most of his life ahead of him. About the only comfort the family had (& it was small comfort, btw) was that the way he passed was part of his karma, God's will, his business on Earth was finished, etc.... it was the only thing that kept them sane. They still don't have the satisaction of an investigation into their son/nephew/brother's death, becuz the bushits keep stonewalling one. Why did the bushits ignore all those warnings about an imminent terrorist attack during the summer of 2001, and in the months after 9/11 who went around the country bragging he had "won the trifecta"? Personally I think this is all disgusting, but there's some metaphysical reason for it.

you are a sick individual if you can!!

on the average, probably no more than anybody else on this planet,& maybe alot less- at least I don't have to take any meds.

If I come across as blasé over the death of innocents, as you term it, perhaps that's becuz I've been pondering such deaths a long time before 9/11/2001. You see, every year on the the weekend before Thanxgiving I make the annual trip down to GA to do SOA. SOA, fyi, is the School Of the Assassins, in other words, it's a training ground for some of those terrorists the Govt claims it's trying to stamp out, & it's located in Columbus GA. The main event, for lack of a better term, of SOA weekend is a funeral proession that commemorates the many victims of these terrorist thugs, euphemistically known as SOA graduates. During the procession people on the stage chant the names of these victims. Sometimes after they chant a name they will add so many weeks, or days, or even hours old. Now those, Zygoat, are innocent victims. At least the victims of 9/11 got to live their lives, albeit short, & grow up. Some of them got to fall in love & even reproduce. So their DNA lives on even if they don't. But what is the purpose, metaphysical or otherwise, of bringing a life into this 3-d space/time world, only for it to be snuffed out days or even hours later? I've been pondering that every November for more years than I care to fess up to. So don't go hauling off at me about innocent victims. Puh-leeze! <_<

mentioned above ,you don't have a clue about( "senseless"?) stuff such as 9/11 & don't pretend to understand it....then what are you replying for?????????????????/ :angry:

well since my first post obviously got you so bent out of shape, I felt responsible & was attempting to explain myself further. Excuse me for trying. :rolleyes:

so you think karma is crap, huh? Given some of the crap you've posted at this site, I have to wonder why you're bothering with a site where the subjects include Eastern philosophy/religions?

pscheck out the SOA (http://www.soaw.org)

sonrisa

31st December 2003, 11:54 AM

Vicente, I never SAID Yellowstone is gonna blow Christmas Eve 2012, just that it would be bizarre if it does.

vicente

31st December 2003, 01:46 PM

?????
Sonrisa,...and I never said that you said that "Yellowstone is gonna blow Christmas Eve 2012", nor that it "would be bizarre if it does".

As for terrorism,...I could stop it in 6months if I was elected or SCOTUS appointed as President.

I'll leave some examples below,...of course, I'd doubt if rightwing conservative types would understand. That's why as President, I would import all rightwingers to Iran, where they could live in one nation under god. Then, with the broadcasting airways free of conservative filth, hate, and anti-Americanism, the truth will have an opportunity to be known.

"The US will never start a war," the president said. "We do not want a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall do our part to build a world of peace..." - John F Kennedy June1963

"You can eliminate people but you cannot eliminate human thought...If we could love even those who have attacked us, and seek to understand why they have done so, what then would be our response? Yet if we meet negativity with negativity, rage with rage, attack with attack, what then will be the outcome? These are the questions that are placed before the human race today. They are questions that we have failed to answer for thousands of years. Failure to answer them now could eliminate the need to answer them at all. If you truely wish to heal your own sadness or anger, seek to heal the sadness or anger of another". - HH Dalai Lama

'A man of peace is not a pacifist, a man of peace is simply a pool of silence. He pulsates a new kind of energy into the world, he sings a new song.
He lives in a totally new way, his very way of life is that of grace, that of prayer, that of compassion. Whomsoever he touches, he creates more love-energy.
The man of peace is creative. He is not against war, because to be against anything is to be at war. He is not against war, he simply understands why war exists.
And out of that understanding he becomes peaceful.
Only when there are many people who are pools of peace, silence, understanding, will the war disappear.' - Osho, from: Zen: The Path of Paradox, Vol. II

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that". - Martin Luther King, Jr.

sonrisa

31st December 2003, 10:41 PM

OK then what did you mean by a misinterpretation of the Yellowstone Supervolcano? Do you think becuz it's no longer in the Pacific it's less likely to blow?

Vicente for Prez.... sounds cool to me! :)

vicente

1st January 2004, 12:28 AM

Oh, I see. I meant it wasn't likely that Yellowstone was the "Scott Peterson chalice of fire & firey ornaments descending to Earth", because it was out in the Pacific 600.000 years ago. I had a volcanology class back in college (circa 1977) , and the Prof, Dr Morey Moran, had convincing evidence that Yellowstone could blow in our lifetime. He was a very knowledege, and actually called the St Helena eruption two years before it happened (within a month).

vicente
:)

zygoat

1st January 2004, 04:17 AM

sonrisa,
so you think karma is crap, huh? i never said that!!! i said that,what you said, about the victims of islamic terrorism, dying as a result of them having something to work out in the collective karma is CRAP!!! <_<

sonrisa

1st January 2004, 06:40 AM

why do you think it is CRAP?

sonrisa

1st January 2004, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by vicente@Dec 31 2003, 01:28 PM
Oh, I see. I meant it wasn't likely that Yellowstone was the "Scott Peterson chalice of fire & firey ornaments descending to Earth", because it was out in the Pacific 600.000 years ago. I had a volcanology class back in college (circa 1977) , and the Prof, Dr Morey Moran, had convincing evidence that Yellowstone could blow in our lifetime. He was a very knowledege, and actually called the St Helena eruption two years before it happened (within a month).

vicente
:)

that was one good call!

the prophecy about the chalice of fire & firey ornaments refers to something that is supposed to happen in the year 2012. Here it is, from the book Native American Prophecies:
".... And when over the dark sea I shall be lifted up in a chalice of fire, to that generation there will come a day of withered fruit.... The face of the Sun will be extinguished because of the great tempest. Then finally ornaments will descend in heaps. There will be good gifts for one and all, as well as land, from the Great Spirit wherever they shall settle down."`
OK I screwed up. It's not "firey ornaments" but "finally ornaments".

Still, it is interesting to speculate what that refers to. The "I" in that prophecy is not necessarily a person. The Yellowstone caldera could be the chalice of fire, the lava could rise up thru the dark sea of the Yellowstone Lake. The ash thrown up from a supervolcano could very well block out the Sun for a good year or so, & when it falls to Earth it would reek havoc with the agriculture (withered fruit) But ultimately this would be a good gift becuz land made up of volcanic soil is very fertile.

Course that's just all speculation, the prophecy could very well refer to something else altogether having nothing to do with volcanoes. :)

sonrisa

1st January 2004, 08:20 AM

if Yellowstone should blow... (http://www.rense.com/general41/yellowstoneupdate.htm)

read this one too! (http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm)

and now I'm off to party! Happy New Year y'all!! :)

rich

2nd January 2004, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by sonrisa@Jan 1 2004, 09:20 AM
please click here:if Yellowstone should blow... (http://www.rense.com/general41/yellowstoneupdate.htm)
please click here:
read this one too! (http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm)

and now I'm off to party! Happy New Year y'all!! :)
Sonrisa:

Revised your post, above, to emphasie the importance of clicking or highlighting to read interesting stuff.

Excellent references, hope that I will not witness them.

But please do not hold your breath while waiting watchfully for the event. :D ;)

Hope you enjoyed party.

Happy 2004. :lol:

DavidS

2nd January 2004, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by zygoat@Dec 30 2003, 04:48 PM
in contrast to the 9·11 'stuff' which you apparently regard as 'senseless' these are sonrisa's words NOT mine!!!(
I apologize for the misattribution and thank you for 'correcting' me in this regard.

apparently it was just that all 20,ooo of the victims had it coming because of there mass karma according to you and sonrisa,right? :
I can't speak for sonrisa. Like concepts/notions pertaining to God, there are many kinds as well as levels of 'understanding' pertaining to what karma means and how it operates.

I reiterate my earlier "there are no 'accidents' " statement. However, if your statement that they 'had it coming' implies some sort of 'punishment' actions, I would disagree with this. That is not my 'implication'. Also, the intertwining of 'individual' and 'mass' 'karma' is a very intricately interwoven, and thus 'complex', matter - that they all died 'together' doesn't mean or indicate (to me) that 'identical' kinds of psychospiritual dynamics or 'outcomes' were involved in all their cases. Far from it. If you wish to understand and explore the kinds of 'complexities' which I think-believe are involved, The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events by Jane Roberts is the best exposition I can recommend on the topic.

Sincerely - David

sonrisa

2nd January 2004, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by rich+Jan 1 2004, 03:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rich @ Jan 1 2004, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--sonrisa@Jan 1 2004, 09:20 AM
please click here:if Yellowstone should blow... (http://www.rense.com/general41/yellowstoneupdate.htm)
please click here:
read this one too! (http://www.solcomhouse.com/yellowstone.htm)

and now I'm off to party! Happy New Year y'all!! :)
Sonrisa:

Revised your post, above, to emphasie the importance of clicking or highlighting to read interesting stuff.

Excellent references, hope that I will not witness them.

But please do not hold your breath while waiting watchfully for the event. :D ;)

Hope you enjoyed party.

Happy 2004. :lol:[/b][/quote]
thanx for your revisions, Richie, & yes, I did enjoy the party :)

I have no desire to be around when Yellowstone finally blows either.

sonrisa

2nd January 2004, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by DavidS@Jan 1 2004, 05:05 PM

I can't speak for sonrisa.

well, Sonrisa is thinking that maybe Zygoat is in a little bit over her head here. I assume that people who come to this site & are interested enough to join & actually post here have at least a rudimentary knowledge of metaphysics. But this time ICBW. If that is indeed the case, then I would suggest to Zygoat that you go to a local metaphysics bookstore & ask for some good books on karma & reincarnation. Meantime,

you may want to check out this link (http://www.dyad.org/d06karma.htm),

also this one, or, as RT would say, please click here.... (http://www.nonduality.com/karma.htm)

rich

3rd January 2004, 12:08 AM

To Sonrisa:

:D :lol: ;) :) :rolleyes:

sonrisa

3rd January 2004, 10:20 PM

:) :D

zygoat

3rd January 2004, 11:56 PM

sonrisa said, and i quote
"that those who suffer from such violent & horrific events are, on the metaphysical level, working out something in their respective karmas",
to which i stated
WHAT?????

and i still adhere to my original response...

i checked out the links and not one reference was made to large groups of people dying from an attack from zealous islamists that could be interpreted was a result of respective karmas..

thanks for your response david!!

a random hack

4th January 2004, 08:38 AM

every single one of those people was in or around the pentagon, the WTC, or on an aircraft, weren't they?
so somehow, their karma (actions) led them to be in that place and time...

zygoat, you sound like you are looking for some reason, as you see it, where none appears to exist.

sonrisa

5th January 2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by zygoat@Jan 3 2004, 12:56 PM

i checked out the links and not one reference was made to large groups of people dying from an attack from zealous islamists that could be interpreted was a result of respective karmas..

oh puh-leeze!! :rolleyes:

those links I posted for you are supposed to give you a general overview of karma & what it is. They make no reference to any specific incidents. Your brain is supposed to do the math & apply the principles of karma to specific incidents, which Random has obligingly done for you. Are you implying that your brain is so lame that you can't do it yourself? My 2 year-old niece & nephew both have better comprehension skills.

Or maybe you are choosing not to understand. I've gone thru these posts & several people have attempted to help you by offering their interpretations of karma. You seem to be wilfully twisting our words around & misinterpreting what we have said. Honestly, some of your posts read like you've been eating too much fruitcake (well, tis the season I guess) On the other hand, maybe I have inadvertantly stumbled onto something. Exactly what are you flying high again on?

sahyo

5th January 2004, 10:27 AM

Your brain is supposed to do the math & apply the principles of karma to specific incidents

really?

zygoat

6th January 2004, 12:13 AM

to all,
this topic started out as "a time to celebrate"...wherein we were supposed to celebrate the fact that 9/11 happened and that more(9/11's) were needed to put an end to religion that some people disagree with.
then we were told that" it"(9/11& the victims) was probably something that(they,the victims) needed to work out in "their" respective karmas,then we were told not "theirs"(karma) but "ours"as to suggest that maybe other people are in OUR world as playthings or puppets for our amusement or to use as learning tools???.
then we were led to a site where KARMA has hundreds of definitions,depending on how the individual chooses to see it,then i was told to do the math.
o.k

1.topic starter +
4.airplanes+
19.islamic terrorists=

over 3,000 dead INNOCENT people + countless others who still are trying to live metaphysically w/out seeing the world as it is

rich

6th January 2004, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by vicente@Nov 8 2003, 02:12 AM
On the Harmonic Concordance...

Yes, the celebration begins on November 8th at 6:13 PM MST, the beginning of the end of the 'base energy' Abrahamic religions, which should be completed within the next 9 years (2012). Peace on earth is near. However, several more 9-11 size shocks may occur to shake the deeply rooted beliefs people hold onto for their identity, and allow the clarity to see that knowledge is in the past, thus an obstacle to the Now. Know god, no Peace; Gnow Peace, no god.

An eclipse draws down Gaias grid, like flipping the off switch of a homes main electric box. This is the time when Sacred Sites were initiated, similar to adding a recepticle/plug in a home,...the new extention is wired, and then, before it is connected, the power is turned off. Those connected to, not separate from, the totality of Nature, were aware how this worked. During this approaching event, unlike with most lunar eclipses, when the power is off during this overshadowed Moon, the toxic vibration of the Star of the David, the symbol of Ego and separation, will be seen by Nature for the malignancy it is, and the healing, that is, the removal of the cancer of the Abrahmic religions can begin.

These are exciting times. An emancipation from the false is at hand. This liberation from the fear fixated Star of David, what the Maya called the 6 lower gods of the physical world, and what Vajra understands as the 6 convex planes which assist light to crystallize into form, will uncover the truth of space-time, and the hate driven Abrahamic religions will be transcended.

Celebrate!
Vicente
:)
Vicente, Whose side are you on? It seems to me that your sympathies are with Osama-bin-Laden, The Teleban and the Al Quaeda Network, rather than your countrymen which perished on Sep 11th, 2001.

Evidently, I am not the only person who views your starting post, in this thread, as written above.
Zygoat recently posted the following: Posted on Jan 6 2004, 01:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
to all,
this topic started out as "a time to celebrate"...wherein we were supposed to celebrate the fact that 9/11 happened and that more(9/11's) were needed to put an end to religion that some people disagree with.
then we were told that" it"(9/11& the victims) was probably something that(they,the victims) needed to work out in "their" respective karmas,then we were told not "theirs"(karma) but "ours"as to suggest that maybe other people are in OUR world as playthings or puppets for our amusement or to use as learning tools???.
then we were led to a site where KARMA has hundreds of definitions,depending on how the individual chooses to see it,then i was told to do the math.
o.k

1.topic starter +
4.airplanes+
19.islamic terrorists=

over 3,000 dead INNOCENT people + countless others who still are trying to live metaphysically w/out seeing the

a random hack

6th January 2004, 07:40 AM

zygoat, not their karmas, our karma.

Right on (IMO), hack. 'Ours' including 'theirs', of course.

yup, forgot to reply to this :D

then we were told not "theirs"(karma) but "ours"as to suggest that maybe other people are in OUR world as playthings or puppets for our amusement or to use as learning tools???.

wasn't using 'our' to designate ownership, but rather to indicate a sharing :) as in 'we', rather than 'my', 'us' rather than 'I' :).

rich

6th January 2004, 10:18 AM

Count me out of your celebration of death, Vicente.

sonrisa

7th January 2004, 06:04 AM

Richie, reread that first post. Vicente is not celebrating death or 9/11, but the new cycle of civilization, that, according to the Mayas, is supposed to begin in the year 2012. There will be upheavals, but they are to pave the way for the new cycle. Sort of like the pains of childbirth that Matthew describes as the Coming of the End of the Age (tho he doesn't give us a date on that). You asked me about the 2012 prochecy earlier in this thread. Most of what I know about it I learned at seminars & workshops. I do have a book, Native American Prophecies by Scott Peterson which includes the 2012 prochecy along with many others. Perhaps others can recommend books specifically about the 2012 prophecy.

ps I just did a msn search and found this link to a book about the 2012 prochecy:please click here (http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/izapa.html)

here is a site devoted to 2012:please click here (http://www.greatdreams.com/2012.htm)

rich

7th January 2004, 12:18 PM

Sonrisa,

Thank you for the URL references you posted. Maybe your analysis of Vicente's celebration may be as you say, but however, whenever he sees an opportunity to discredit the Abrahamic God, he will do so. He may feel justified to do so, but as i see it, live and let live. He should not make the judgments he makes about others, for his Maker will judge him by the same standards.
IOW, he should look within himself first, before criticizing others. :ph34r:

zygoat

8th January 2004, 07:51 AM

sonrisa,
vicente is so celebrating death and so are you... Vicente is not celebrating death or 9/11, but the new cycle of civilization, that, according to the Mayas, is supposed to begin in the year 2012. There will be upheavals, but they are to pave the way for the new cycle. there will be death of beliefs,just for starters,because you and vicente disagree with a certain religion or Abrahamic god.And it seems that you are o.k. with the collateral damage too,(upheavals).
Also there may be deaths, if ,people get so into losing this Abrahamic belief and latching on to the Mayan new cycle!!

vicente

8th January 2004, 09:53 AM

There really don't need to be death and suffering Zygoat,...but that seems to be what people, especially Americans, want. They are afraid of truth,...they are afraid to apologize, they fear peace.

For example:
"If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush Administration again." Bill O'Reilly (Fox's O'Reilly Factor), on Good Morning America, March 18, 2003

Suppose a creepy, pathetic facist like Bill O'Reilly would follow through on his promise. Now that would be a huge step for peace.

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view.html?i...d=04&size=small (http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view.html?id=04&size=small)

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view.html?i...d=05&size=small (http://www.bushin30seconds.org/view.html?id=05&size=small)

Vicente
:)

sonrisa

16th January 2004, 10:49 AM

actually until recently I was celebrating Christmas.

zygoat

30th January 2004, 05:46 AM

sonrisa,
actually until recently I was celebrating Christmas.
am i to assume that the birth of Christ has caused you to celebrate?? :thumbsup:

sonrisa

30th January 2004, 03:58 PM

so that meets with your approval, huh?

Actually, the origins of Christmas go back further than the birth of Christ. Without going into all the details, the ancient Europeans set 8 holidays, for lack of a better word, more or less evenly (every 5 to 7 weeks) throughout the year, including one around the winter solstice. The Northern Europeans called it Midwinter, or the Yule. It is from them that we get all the Christmas greenery, including Christmas trees & boughs of holly, & of course, the Yule log. The Romans called it Saturnalia & from them we get the gift giving & partying, the peace on Earth goodwill to men (& women!) camaderie. The Church co-opted (& I'm not criticizing them, mind you) this holiday for 2 reasons:
a) Saturnalia was a time of massive, buku partying. Anybody who wasn't partying was looked at askance, & as Christians were being persecuted back then, they didn't want to cast suspicion on themselves. So they celebrated- the birth of Christ.
b ) old habits die hard, & nobody wants to give up a holiday, so as the Church spread thru out Europe, they Christianized Midwinter/the Yule, as well as the other 7 hoildays.

I have always liked Christmas, for as long as I can remember, & no, not becuz of all the stuff I got under the tree. Actually, I like to go holiday shopping & give people gifts better than I do getting them. Beyond that I like the spirit of it- peace on Earth, good will to wo/men. It just seems to me to be a nice time of the year. :)

sonrisa

9th February 2004, 02:17 AM

--- YELLOWSTONE UPDATE---

Our Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks are calling for our
prayers. Many of you understand the relationship of the energy grid lines of heaven and earth and its relationship with this next eclipse. They are like to the nervous system of your bodies and its wiring system. Earth Mother is being stressed out by bad vibrations and some of us as well. With this increasing solar activity, so it is with Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks sacred sites
that are asking for help. We have come together because our hearts are responding for a change. This change is necessary for the survival of our home planet Earth, our Mother. It is time to forgive and forget and move forward into sacredness. The words that have been given in prophecy by the Hopi, they have said, "We
are the people we have been waiting for."

I am Bennie LeBeau from the Eastern Shoshone Nation in Wyoming. I am also a member of the Council of The Spiritual Elders of Mother Earth. I believe many of you may remember what we are representing as Eastern Shoshone peoples in the Grand Teton and the Yellowstone National Parks. This is part of our original homelands written in our treaty as a sovereign country and that our cultural traditions would not be forgotten in order to utilize these sacred sites areas. Since September of 1999, we have been attempting to gain permission for our most sacred ceremony
the Sundance and other ceremonies to be allowed in the Grand Tetons and Yellowstone Park, along with many other Indigenous Nations of this country. The park officials and the general public are beginning to see the significance of why it is needed. Now it is most evident because of the seismic volcanic activity in and around the Grand Teton and the Yellowstone National Parks.

What we have helped escalate as humans is the disturbance to the web of life on earth in these sacred site areas. Remembering the words from the past by a powerful messenger, Chief Seattle stated, "Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of earth. . . the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth... all things are connected...man did not weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it...whatever he does to the web, he does to himself."

On October 22, 2003 a message stated in July that the Yellowstone Park rangers closed the entire Norris Geyer Basin because of the deformation of the land and the excess temperature. There is an area there that is 28 miles long and 7 miles wide that has bulged upward over five inches since 1996. This year the ground temperature on that budge has reached over 200 degrees. There was no choice but to close off the whole area. Everything in that area is dying. The trees, flowers, and grasses resemble a dead zone and are spreading outward. The animals are literally migrating out of the park. This isn't hearsay. It is coming from people who have
actually visited the park in the last few weeks.

The later part of July, one of the park geologists discovered a huge bulge at the bottom of Yellowstone Lake. The bulge has already risen over 100 feet from the bottom of the lake. The water
temperature at the surface of the bulge has reached 88 degrees and is still rising. Keep in mind that Yellowstone Lake is a high mountain lake with a very cold-water temperature. The lake is now closed to the public. It is filled with dead fish floating everywhere. The same is true of the Yellowstone River and most of the
steams in the park. Dead and dying fish are filling the water everywhere. Many picnic areas in the park have been closed and people that are visiting the park don't stay but a few hours or a day or two and leave. The stench of sulfur is so strong that they
literally can't stand the smell.

Yellowstone is what geologists call a "super volcano". There are
massive calderas of molten fire beneath Yellowstone National Park. Geologists are saying that every living thing within six hundred miles could be affected in devastation. It could produce an ash cloud that will cover the entire western U.S. clear to
the Pacific on the west, British Columbia on the north, the Mexican border on the south, and then out into the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas on the east. Then the cloud could blow east because of the prevailing winds, literally covering the entire nation with volcanic ash.

I believe this to be of great importance to us at this time. The vision
is to pray for balance in this area. With our prayers, songs, drums and the ways that we have been instructed in our spiritual teachings, no matter what culture you/we are our hearts make the difference. If Yellowstone National Park seismic activity continues then we could all be affected around the earth. The reports on the
seismic activity's speak for themselves. The 100 years of government management in the Yellowstone and The Grand Tetons have disallowed our most important prayers and ceremonies to exist as all indigenous tribes in this country. It is now time for us to act as a nation/world within all countries to allow these sacred prayers and ceremonies into the National Parks of Wyoming. Joseph (Hinmaton Yalatkit) 1830-1904, Nez Perce Chief, said,
"When ever the white man treats the Indian as they treat each other,
then we ill have no more wars. We shall all be alike-brothers of one father and one mother, with one sky above us and one country around us, and one government for all." Uniting our tribes of all cultures from the peaks in the Grand Tetons and Yellowstone I send a strong-hearted message to you to awaken and respond now.
These sacred site areas are calling out to her caretakers all over the
world. Now is the time for uniting together and working in harmony. Together our songs, our drums and our prayers speak the ancient language that exits and are remembered in the sacred pictures written on the rocks, in the sacred heartbeat of the land and in the sacred songs heard in the wind. We can bring balance and harmony back to the land remembered by our ancestors of the past, present and future generations. Our mother is calling out to her caretakers. This is a great opportunity for prayer work in our councils and other groups helping bring the indigenous nations together and with all nations as well.

Yellowstone National Park representative, Rosemary Sucec, has received this message. She is one of the liaison officers that relay messages to the superintendents and other agencies in the parks. She is very interested in bringing indigenous nations and others to do our work there. This Native American perspective has been
explained to groups that were from many indigenous nations and other cultures that attended the Lewis and Clark Celebration for Sacagawea's leadership role last May 2003, by others and myself. Because of the reports of Yellowstone's disturbances at this time and its significance they are NOW considering the outcome of our ancestral lands and usage in a decision by the Grand Teton and
Yellowstone National Parks Superintendents.

Today the spirits are calling for good medicine, for us all to awaken
with many blessings for all the things we are related to in harmony and balance. We are returning to the sacredness for all living things, for the future of our Mother Earth as part of Creator's creation and within the heavens sacredness, she is helping to
bless us all. This is a very important time in our Mother Earth's
history for humanities sake. Every thing is related within and upon, what is above is below, heaven upon earth. Chief Seattle's words, "When the last Redman has vanished from the earth and the memory is only a shadow of a cloud moving across the prairie, these shores and forests will still hold the spirits of my people." We have not vanished but have been reborn to do the work our ancestors did; it is time to step into the moccasins of our ancestors with the wisdom, strength and knowledge at hand. Thank you for your attention, and prayers please respond to:

Bennie E. LeBeau,
Eastern Shoshone Wind River Indian Reservation
Ft. Washakie, Wyoming
2331 Oak Lane
Riverton, Wyoming
307 857-6856

slayer

10th February 2004, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by sonrisa@Dec 5 2003, 01:23 AM
relax Zygoat, I do not like the idea of that level of violence myself, but sometimes it takes a catastrophe, or a number of them, to get us out of our comfort zones & motivate us towards real constructive change. You gotta be able to see the cockroaches in order to deal with them.

As I said, I don't like the idea of violence & suffering any more than you. Sometimes you just gotta step back, take a breath, & look at these things from the metaphysical perspective (the events around us are merely physical manifestations of the greater metaphysical process, after all) & remember that those who suffer from such violent & horrific events are, on the metaphysical level, working out something in their respective karmas, just as you & I are working out things in our respective karmas via the events, both good & bad, in our lives. :)

You know, I really am trying to stay away from these non-philosophical topics and threads, but I'm weak, terribly weak.

It's nice to know that Sonrisa and Vicente can look beyond the thousands of innocent people killed on 9/11 in order to realize the wonderful benefit of their deaths, namely, to get them out of their (Sonrisa's and Vicente's) comfort zones.

I've never been in such a terrible comfort zone that I would consider the deaths of thousands of innocent people a benefit.

As for the splendid metaphor about cockroaches (because we all know that metaphors are the best way to attain knowledge), I simply lay out some roach motels and never see those evil roaches until they're dead. I also didn't need the terrorists to blow up the twin towers to know they (the terrorists) existed. But I'm sure all those lives were worth the wake-up call. Thanks, all you dead people, for without you I might still be in some comfort zone.

Well, I'm also sure that the over 12 million people the Nazis murdered, many of which were infants, are working out their karmas right now. They all probably had it coming, having done something terribly wrong in a previous life. Yeah, that's it.

No, Sonrisa, it seems that you're much more comfortable with the "idea of violence & suffering" than Zygoat is. Plenty more comfortable than I am, for sure. You're also more comfortable with the evil that occurred on 9/11. You're also more comfortable with the idea that innoncent people (many infants and children) were murdered.

Thanks all of you murdered Jews and victims of 9/11 -- on behalf of Sonrisa,

There were two things someone could have done in reponse to Vicente's post and Zygoat's response: One, to join Zygoat in expressin his outrage over Vicente's post; or Two, to try to explain why Vicente doesn't have it all wrong.

Sonrisa, you chose the latter. You continue to side with people that choose reprehensible positions, especially in light of the fact that you don't first express your qualms about anything they've said.

You are morally irresponsible at the very least,

slayer

sahyo

11th February 2004, 04:18 AM

wet
dustflower scents
not yesterday
not tomorrow
not now
yet
wet

sonrisa

11th February 2004, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by slayer@Feb 10 2004, 12:37 AM

You know, I really am trying to stay away from these non-philosophical topics and threads, but I'm weak, terribly weak.

curiosity is not a sign of weakness, infact it can be rather healthy, tho it has been known to kill the cat..... but then you aren't a cat, are you mi perrito regazo? (Hey, you followed me over here to this topic dincha?)

There were two things someone could have done in reponse to Vicente's post and Zygoat's response: One, to join Zygoat in expressin his outrage over Vicente's post; or Two, to try to explain why Vicente doesn't have it all wrong.

Vicente can speak for himself. And he did several posts up.

Before I can continue with my response I need to know a few things:
a) what is your pov re: death?

b ) why do you want to be a hermit?

&

my hatred burns hotter than bad poetry can convey

c) why?

no game, these are serious questions.

slayer

12th February 2004, 04:02 AM

Sonrisa,

I agree, curiosity can be a good thing, but I was saying I was weak because I couldn't stay away after telling myself to stay away.

I didn't exactly follow you here, pero, si, eres mi mundo, mi corazon, mi razon por estar aqui (viviendo!). I simply made the following inference: Everyone else here seems to know everything about everything, hence they post in every thread about every topic seemingly, so I figured you'd be here also, though I didn't come looking for you. In fact, I wish I had never read that post of yours. Por favor dime que no eres sympatica, porque me daria pena -- mucha pena.

I believe death to be the end of consciousness. I don't believe in the hereafter or in life-after-death of any kind.

Are you preparing to tell me that since you believe death to be a good thing, somehow, that therefore the deaths of those innocent people was a good thing? Or, at least not a bad thing? I'll await your reply before I address what I think it wrong with some of those possible answers.

One, I enjoy time alone. Two, I've met few people who I enjoy sharing prolonged periods of time with (excepting a few gfs), and the rest I've met I would rather never spend any time with. I enjoy reading, which I do best alone. I enjoy pondering about life, which I do best alone. I enjoy philosophy, which I do best alone. I'm not completely awkward in many social settings, but almost always I have that feeling of 'I'd rather not be here.' That is, almost always, I'd rather be home or hanging out with one other person somewhere less populated. I also do get out some. So I'm not a total recluse.

I hate because I think we should all take responsibility for the evil and injustice we contribute to the world, but few take this responsibility seriously and even flout this responsibility. Responsibility not just in the sense of owning up to the bad things one does, but actually not doing it.

slayer

slayer

12th February 2004, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by vicente@Dec 31 2003, 01:46 AM
(1): "....Yet if we meet negativity with negativity, rage with rage, attack with attack, what then will be the outcome? These are the questions that are placed before the human race today. They are questions that we have failed to answer for thousands of years. Failure to answer them now could eliminate the need to answer them at all. If you truely wish to heal your own sadness or anger, seek to heal the sadness or anger of another". - HH Dalai Lama

(2) 'A man of peace is not a pacifist, a man of peace is simply a pool of silence.....He lives in a totally new way, his very way of life is that of grace, that of prayer, that of compassion....He is not against war, because to be against anything is to be at war. He is not against war, he simply understands why war exists.
And out of that understanding he becomes peaceful.
Only when there are many people who are pools of peace, silence, understanding, will the war disappear.' - Osho, from: Zen: The Path of Paradox, Vol. II

(3) "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that". - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Sonrisa,

This is for your benefit. I want to show you why Vicente is morally and pragmatically inept. He think he's preaching against anti-Americanism but he is an anti-American, he just doesn't know it. Anyone who lays the blame for 9/11 on America(ns) is anti-American and morally irresponsible.

re (1): If you meet attack with attack, then what will be the outcome? Well, one outcome will be the end of Hitler. WWI and WWII were attacks met with attacks, but they ended. So the platitude that violence only breeds violence in perpetuum is empirically false.

What a great world the Dalai Lama envisions, too bad it's nothing like the world we live in. One problem with healing the anger of others is that there is such a thing as irrational anger and unjustified anger, so how do you reason with people who are irrationally angry? And how to you tell others that their anger is unjustified when they use a different set of values than you do? You can tell them, but it won't stop their violence or squelch their anger. Thanks, Dalai Lama, for your pragmatically useless dreams.

re (2): Yes, the man of peace won't use violence to stop you from being raped. What of his compassion for the victim? To be against anything is to be at war? Implying that being against something is bad? Ridiculous. I'm against slavery, racism, rape, child molestation, etc., and when violence against the perpetrator is pragmatically necessary to stop their crimes, then I'm all for war (action!). Thanks, Osho, I'm sure war will disappear someday. Let America become one giant stagnant pool of silence. Of course the millions we've saved from unjust slaughter will thank us that we weren't pools of platitudes until now.

re (3): Well, since violence destroyed the extirmination of the Jews of Europe by the Nazis, I'm thinking MLK is wrong. Violence is the just and the proper response sometimes. This is a moral tenet, not just a politcal one. Thanks, MLK, for the darkness metaphor. Of course "darkness" and "light" have bad and good connotations, so you're already begging the question, but thanks for the pretty language. MLK would never be the darling of the American populace if it weren't for Malcolm X, a greater fighter of justice than MLK. Malcolm X was the champion of the downtrodden blacks, because they knew that he stood up for their dignity and their rights. And they understood very well the violence and injustice perpretrated on them by the society at large, so to them, watching a black child get beaten, a black woman raped, a black man lynched, without doing anything to stop it was immoral, unjust, and contrary to their humanity. And they were right!

Had I been Reginald Denny, I would have said, "hang those cowards!", not "can't we all just get along."

slayer

sonrisa

12th February 2004, 03:52 PM

I agree, curiosity can be a good thing, but I was saying I was weak because I couldn't stay away after telling myself to stay away.

- so don't then. You don't have to restrict yourself in that way. My problem with you was the obnoxious nature of your posts (& you were posting muy fea to Dots, btw, whose post to you was well-intentioned, as far as I could tell. You should be apologizing to Dots, not the other way around. Hell, I figured you took your username from your favorite band too. Obviously we both were wrong. And what makes you think Dots is a she?) anyhow (shrug) post wherever you want so long as you're being civil.

I didn't exactly follow you here, pero, si, eres mi mundo, mi corazon, mi razon por estar aqui (viviendo!).
- :D ¡recuerdas! El dîa de Sån Valentîn estå en såbado :D

I simply made the following inference: Everyone else here seems to know everything about everything,

- that's funny, Richie said something similar about you one of the other forums, but I forget which one.
I will be the first one to tell you (& I am) that I don't know everything about everything, or even anything. I enjoy interacting with the others who post here, learning about their pov's & sharing mine.

hence they post in every thread about every topic seemingly,

- I only post in topics that interest me.

so I figured you'd be here also,
though I didn't come looking for you. In fact, I wish I had never read that post of yours. Por favor dime que no eres sympatica, porque me daria pena -- mucha pena.

I believe death to be the end of consciousness. I don't believe in the hereafter or in life-after-death of any kind.

- so you think that when somebody dies they just fade to black, like when passing out? Or maybe the mind just lapses into a sort of perpetual dream state? I'm asking serious here.

Are you preparing to tell me that since you believe death to be a good thing, somehow, that therefore the deaths of those innocent people was a good thing? Or, at least not a bad thing? I'll await your reply before I address what I think it wrong with some of those possible answers.

- no, no, & depends. I see that we are an ocean (as in Pacific) apart as to how we look at death. I'll get to my pov in a minute.

One, I enjoy time alone. Two, I've met few people who I enjoy sharing prolonged periods of time with (excepting a few gfs), and the rest I've met I would rather never spend any time with. I enjoy reading, which I do best alone. I enjoy pondering about life, which I do best alone. I enjoy philosophy, which I do best alone. I'm not completely awkward in many social settings, but almost always I have that feeling of 'I'd rather not be here.' That is, almost always, I'd rather be home or hanging out with one other person somewhere less populated. I also do get out some. So I'm not a total recluse.

- whew! That's a relief!! :)

I hate because I think we should all take responsibility for the evil and injustice we contribute to the world, but few take this responsibility seriously and even flout this responsibility. Responsibility not just in the sense of owning up to the bad things one does, but actually not doing it.

- I agree with you about people taking responsibility for their actions, but you shouldn't hate. It'll eat you up inside

as for your next post, I don't know enough about Osho to comment on him. The quote looks like it's out of context. I'd have to go back & see in what context Vincente used it & I'm not about to do that right now.

You've already admitted to Fu* you're a racist, even signed off that way once, so why should I buy into anything you say about the Dalai Lama & MLK? Anyhow, they're right- violence only breeds more violence. You bring up WWII- what you don't say is that Germany, hell, most of Europe was a bombed out wreck by 1945, millions were dead & not just Jews, tho what happened to them was reprehensible, you're right about that. My Father was in the Air Force during WWII, wanna know what he had to say about it- he said it was immoral. Maybe you should go ask Richie to give you an eyewitness account before you go popping off about WWII again. If he'll talk about it, that is. My Father never liked talking about it that much. Meantime, while Daddy & Richie were risking their lives, & others were losing theirs, Ghandi was busy winning independence for his country (India) thru non-violent means. So non-violent methods of resistance &/or intervention can work, if anybody would care to try them.

Unfortunately, this is The Real World, as you point out, & people don't seem to want to do that. Why negotiate when you can just drop a bomb? So somebody drops a bomb on you, & you drop another bomb on them, & so on until you get one big bombed out shell of corpses & devastation. And this is what I meant by a catastrophe getting people out of their comfort zones, so that they'll wake up & smell the stench, look around at all the destruction, hear the deathly silence, & get so sickened & disgusted by it that nobody will want to wage war or do violence again.

Do I want to arrive at a new & improved world this way? Hell no! It would be great if everybody would pull together to build a better world
to live in, but what are the chances of that happening? Still, I do my small part- taking a stand against war & violence whenever possible. And I keep in mind that there are metaphysical reasons that things unfold the way they do, no matter how senseless & disgusting it may seem to me. OK, now I'm not sure how to put this into words- you can't obsess over evil, senseless things (which is what Zygoat was doing) that will eat you up inside. You got to get past it & work to change things for the good. But know that there's a higher metaphysical reason for everything that happens, to the good or bad.

I'm sorry this is ending up lame. I know the concept I want to convey, just not how to do so with words.

sonrisa

12th February 2004, 04:33 PM

oops! sorry, I forgot.

Death- the 13th card in the Rider pack, the card of change, transition. New ideas, new situations new opportunities. In certain circumstances, can even mean a birth!

Death in a sense, is a birth, in that you leave behind your old 3-d space time bod & enter into a new plane of existence. For these bodies are just shells that we use while existing in this plane, & when it is time to move on, we do so, like moving out of an old house & into a new one. Sometimes we come back to this planet in another shell, eventually, when we're ready, we just move on out altogether. Bottom line, death is the transition point between 2 levels of existence. In thermodynamic terms it is the mass returning to energy.

"Renewed life energies await the soul who is willing to release itself from the bondage & limitations of this Earth.You must learn to understand that Death is non-existent. This beautiful symbol helps to unfold the mysteries of transition. Death as we fear it does not exist, life is continually changing from one level to another. Look back on your life & consider the many changes you have experienced. When something was apparantly taken away, time will show you the natural rythmic pattern & you will see that something important was put in its place. Think about nature & all her seasons, pause for a moment & focus your mind on the wonders of the universe. See yorself as an integral part of this magnificant plan. Try to undertand your purpose here on Earth. Fill your life with new hope, leave all your yesterdays behind, & feel the joy of God within you." Eileen Connolly

And that is Death.
As you can see, there is a fundamental difference in our thinking.

slayer

12th February 2004, 04:37 PM

Sonrisa,

I see you're up late. Anyway, I am taking your questions seriously and answering them as honestly as I can. Let me address some of the things you've said.

Sonrisa: My problem with you was the obnoxious nature of your posts (& you were posting muy fea to Dots, btw, whose post to you was well-intentioned, as far as I could tell. You should be apologizing to Dots, not the other way around.

-- Dotty wasn't what I'd call civil. If you recall, there was a misunderstanding between us about something I thought you were claiming. Now, in our case, you attacked the things I said because you didn't know there was a misunderstanding. Fine, that's understandable. But Dotty, having recognized there was a misunderstanding, nevertheless, chose to attack me and some of the things I said. Not very sporting of her, nor very civil. And certainly not well-intentioned.

Sonrisa: so you think that when somebody dies they just fade to black, like when passing out? Or maybe the mind just lapses into a sort of perpetual dream state?

-- Yes, that when we die, that's the end of it all. I don't believe in a soul that lives on.

Sonrisa: I agree with you about people taking responsibility for their actions, but you shouldn't hate. It'll eat you up inside

-- Well, I'm glad you agree. I'm not worried about hate eating me up inside. I'm capable of withstanding that emotional load.

Sonrisa: You've already admitted to Fu* you're a racist, even signed off that way once, so why should I buy into anything you say about the Dalai Lama & MLK?

-- Oh come on! I admitted that if innocently using the phrase "indian giver" was racist, then I was a racist. I signed off "racist" sarcastically, because it seemed absurd to attribute to me the full, nasty meaning of 'a racist' given my use of "indian giver." Of course Fu wanted to peg me as a racist (without qualification), which shows you those good intentions of hers (or his) that you mentioned.

Sonrisa: My Father was in the Air Force during WWII, wanna know what he had to say about it- he said it was immoral. Maybe you should go ask Richie to give you an eyewitness account before you go popping off about WWII again.

--- I'm not seeing why the opinions of servicemen on moral matters should carry more weight than those of philosophers. I served in the military myself, so are my opinions therefore more worthy than yours (assuming you haven't served)?

Sonrisa: Ghandi was busy winning independence for his country (India) thru non-violent means. So non-violent methods of resistance &/or intervention can work, if anybody would care to try them.

--- I'm familiar with Ghandi. My point was that non-violence is sometimes immoral. And non-violence is also a very naive way of dealing with a problem in many circumstances. What do you think your non-violent methods would get the Israelis? I'll tell you. It would get them annihilated.
No, an Israeli government that practiced non-violence would be an immoral government in light of the circumstances.

Sonrisa: And I keep in mind that there are metaphysical reasons that things unfold the way they do, no matter how senseless & disgusting it may seem to me.... But know that there's a higher metaphysical reason for everything that happens, to the good or bad.

--- I don't share your view of the world here. I don't think there's some cosmic or supernatural explanation for why things happen. Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. I don't think things will get levelled out in some other life, or at some later time, or in some other realm.

a bright,

slayer

...

12th February 2004, 05:21 PM

Yes, that when we die, that's the end of it all. I don't believe in a soul that lives on.

..what is this 'you' that can end at death?

slayer

13th February 2004, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by ...@Feb 12 2004, 05:21 AM
..what is this 'you' that can end at death?

Dotty,

Well, I think this 'you' is ultimately just my consciousness. I figure my brain gives rise to my consciousness, and my consciousness in a sense is me. I don't dispute that the idea of a soul within us is intuitive, more or less, but I think that this idea is a byproduct of having a higher order consciousness -- higher than dogs, say. I hope this doesn't lead to a discussion about the status of dogs and whether they have souls.

slayer

sonrisa

13th February 2004, 02:39 PM

Bueno, Slayer! :)

slayer: Dotty wasn't what I'd call civil. If you recall, there was a misunderstanding between us about something I thought you were claiming. Now, in our case, you attacked the things I said because you didn't know there was a misunderstanding. Fine, that's understandable. But Dotty, having recognized there was a misunderstanding, nevertheless, chose to attack me and some of the things I said. Not very sporting of her, nor very civil. And certainly not well-intentioned.

- I just read thru those posts & I still don't see the problem. Dots posted the Slayer lyrics becuz he thought you'd get it & you were an a-hole in return. Hell, I told you myself I assumed you took your username from the band. Who was to know you not only didn't recognize the lyrics but thought they were trite, bad poetry (so much for your taste :rolleyes: ) But that's between you & Dots, & from what I've been reading, he's handling you pretty well.

slayer: Yes, that when we die, that's the end of it all. I don't believe in a soul that lives on.

- why not?

slayer: I'm not worried about hate eating me up inside. I'm capable of withstanding that emotional load.

- ya think?

slayer: Oh come on! I admitted that if innocently using the phrase "indian giver" was racist, then I was a racist. I signed off "racist" sarcastically, because it seemed absurd to attribute to me the full, nasty meaning of 'a racist' given my use of "indian giver."

- OK. I'll give you this one. It is hard to tell just by reading the printed words, what tone of voice, for lack of a better term, the writer was using when s/he wrote them. That's why alot of us use the little Walmart dudes on the sidebar to convey a tone of voice or some other expression (tho I don't think there's one for sarcasm, sorry) And perhaps Fu* was being a bit premature to call you a racist on the basis of one remark, tho s/he's right about it being racist, btw. Before that, I noticed a smarmy comment you made about Jews taking over America in one of your posts, but I decided to wait & see if a pattern developed before calling you on it. Nothing has, so OK you're not a racist, but I find it hard to believe you do anything innocently. :badgrin:

slayer: I'm not seeing why the opinions of servicemen on moral matters should carry more weight than those of philosophers. I served in the military myself, so are my opinions therefore more worthy than yours (assuming you haven't served)?

- depends. If the servicemen lived thru it, then yeah, I'd say their opinions carry more weight. Re: WWII-
we can sit in a history class & listen to some teacher drone on about the horrors of WWII, & look at the pix & other AV aids of the bombed out buildings & the piled up corpses, & say, "yeah, that was god-awful, never again!" but (sotto voce) we don't know what it was like back then. In my mind I can see my Dad's face whenever WWII was brought up ( he never brought it up, btw, except for a couple times when he had a few in him & started "reminiscing") Suffice to say that concerning WWII, yeah my Dad's opinion carries more weight- & not just becuz he was my Dad, either.

slayer: And non-violence is also a very naive way of dealing with a problem in many circumstances.

-so you say

slayer: What do you think your non-violent methods would get the Israelis?

- couldn't say, considering they've never tried them. A little respect, maybe?

slayer: I don't share your view of the world here. I don't think there's some cosmic or supernatural explanation for why things happen. Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. I don't think things will get levelled out in some other life, or at some later time, or in some other realm.

- why not?

a bright,

-a bright what? :)

ps. but dogs do have souls, perrito!

...

14th February 2004, 07:02 PM

Slayer,

Well, I think this 'you' is ultimately just my consciousness. I figure my brain gives rise to my consciousness, and my consciousness in a sense is me.

Consciousness is the strangest non-thing, it gives rise to any kind of possible experience fathomable, and yet it remains unaffected by it. Do you think that when the body comes into existence, so does consciousness?

I don't dispute that the idea of a soul within us is intuitive, more or less, but I think that this idea is a byproduct of having a higher order consciousness -- higher than dogs, say. I hope this doesn't lead to a discussion about the status of dogs and whether they have souls.

Don't worry, i won't even discuss orders of consciousness, those are firmly in the eye of the beholder. The funny thing is; the beholder of things, thinking, the mind, ego, the psychological [different words for the same] are seen. They're seemingly objectified by something that looks to be outside of them, which becones the question: what are you, the seeing or the seen?

slayer

9th March 2004, 03:26 AM

Sonrisa,

I'm addressing your questions late only because I haven't viewed this thread, or any Religion thread, since Feb. 13, the last time I posted here. The Religion and Bhuddist discussions aren't my cup of tea. Let's just leave it at that.

Sonrisa: Hell, I told you myself I assumed you took your username from the band. Who was to know you not only didn't recognize the lyrics but thought they were trite, bad poetry (so much for your taste ) But that's between you & Dots, & from what I've been reading, he's handling you pretty well.

slayer -- I have no problem with you and Dots making that assumption, but let's not forget it is an assumption. It was mistaken. Am I to be held responsible for your false assumption?

You think Dotty is "handling" me "pretty well"? It always amazes me to hear what people think about the same phenomenon I'm witnessing. Feel free to think what you wish, although considering that you probably think you're handling me pretty well also, I'm not surprised by your opinion.

(slayer: Yes, that when we die, that's the end of it all. I don't believe in a soul that lives on.)

Sonrisa - why not?

slayer -- For the same reason I don't believe in unicorns, magical elves, fairies, and angels -- few things, if any, speak in favor of their existence. If I asked you: Why don't you believe there is an invisible gnome dancing on your head right now? Well, you could respond, "because I have no reason to." And that would be a perfectly good answer.

slayer : I'm not seeing why the opinions of servicemen on moral matters should carry more weight than those of philosophers. I served in the military myself, so are my opinions therefore more worthy than yours (assuming you haven't served)?

Sonrisa - depends. If the servicemen lived thru it, then yeah, I'd say their opinions carry more weight.

slayer -- The question is a moral one. Having served in WWII doesn't make your father an expert on questions of morality. He might know what it is to experience a war, unlike many of us, but he thereby isn't the authority on moral matters. And if you've ever been around servicemen, you'd know that many aren't the brightest individuals, so why would their opinions on such matters count for more than an intelligent person's? So, no, being a serviceman, even one who served in a war, doesn't mean you settle questions of morality concerning war.

slayer: What do you think your non-violent methods would get the Israelis?

Sonrisa - couldn't say, considering they've never tried them. A little respect, maybe?

slayer -- Your answer is horribly naive. Do you know anything about the Middle East at all? Do you know anything about Israel's history? This is the problem with liberals like you, the options you point to are just fantasies (that is, pragmatic non-options), and therefore offensively naive.

You dream of this idyllic way the world should be, but nowhere do you seriously consider how the world is and thus how we can change it. The answer to wars is simply to stop having wars. How wonderful. Gee, I wonder if that will happen soon. Gee, I wonder what the price would be for the United States to get rid of its military, because, after all, we want to be the first to set the example. Well, I'm overjoyed that your irresponsible suggestions are deemed foolish, and righfully so, by anyone with the slightest grasp on reality.

The Israelis would be annihilated. Your solution would be tantamount to genocide. But of course it's worth a try, huh? Sure, having millions die because you're too lazy to think or inept at it is worth trying your wondrous solution. Just stop fighting back. Yeah, that's it!

It's not that you "couldn't say," it's that you won't say. But although you claim you couldn't say, you do offer a possibility, which you qualify with your favorite word, "maybe": "a little respect, maybe?"

How obviously biased of you. How moronic a claim, er,...a suggestion. Of all the likely results issuing from not defending themselves, you think the Israelis would earn a little respect. This is the epitome of fantasy and irresponsibility. Yeah, those Israel-hating peoples who currently are murdering Jewish citizens would just stop killing them and not oust them from the Middle East. You understand the Middle East so well. You understand anti-Semiticism so well. You understand anti-Zionism so well.

Your suggestion is not even laughable, it's shamefully ignorant.

I want to buy the world a Coke,

slayer

sonrisa

11th March 2004, 04:47 PM

slayer--I'm addressing your questions late only because I haven't viewed this thread, or any Religion thread, since Feb. 13, the last time I posted here. The Religion and Bhuddist discussions aren't my cup of tea.

--ok

slayer -- I have no problem with you and Dots making that assumption, but let's not forget it is an assumption. It was mistaken. Am I to be held responsible for your false assumption?

--no, of course not. I only meant you didn't have to get nasty with him when he printed the Slayer lyrics, that's all.

(slayer: Yes, that when we die, that's the end of it all. I don't believe in a soul that lives on.)

Sonrisa - why not?

slayer -- For the same reason I don't believe in unicorns, magical elves, fairies, and angels -- few things, if any, speak in favor of their existence.

-- well I don't believe in unicorns, magical elves, & fairies either. Angels, interesting beings those, but I won't bother you with the details.

slayer- If I asked you: Why don't you believe there is an invisible gnome dancing on your head right now?

-- don't forget your hat

slayer- And if you've ever been around servicemen, you'd know that many aren't the brightest individuals, so why would their opinions on such matters count for more than an intelligent person's?

--now you're dissing servicemen! So Ernest Hemingway wasn't very bright, huh? John Kennedy wasn't very bright? Along with many others I can't name because they didn't have their 15 minutes of fame, but hey, if you can make your cases with just one example, then I figure I can get by with 2. :)

slayer-- You dream of this idyllic way the world should be, but nowhere do you seriously consider how the world is and thus how we can change it. The answer to wars is simply to stop having wars.

--Exactly!! :)

what is wrong with dreaming about a better world, & working to make the world a better place? That last part is the operative phrase, btw, because it would be wrong to have the dream, but not act on it. Well maybe not wrong per sé, but pointless.

don't you have any dreams, Slayer? Is that why you make fun of those of us who do? I expect a serious answer to my question here, so if all you got is a snide, smarmy one, you can keep it behind your teeth.

I'm not touching the rest of your post. I have no intention of carrying over our little tete a tete from Oxymorons & getting bogged down in it here. I will only say, you have your opinion & I have mine. But thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

rich

12th March 2004, 01:32 AM

Sonrisa wrote this statement in her post of Feb 11th: Maybe you should go ask Richie to give you an eyewitness account before you go popping off about WWII again. If he'll talk about it, that is. My Father never liked talking about it that much. Meantime, while Daddy & Richie were risking their lives, & others were losing theirs, Ghandi was busy winning independence for his country (India) thru non-violent means. So non-violent methods of resistance &/or intervention can work, if anybody would care to try them.

Unfortunately, I can not give an eyewitness account, for did not serve in the midst of combat.
I got a dependancy discharge, since my mother was unable to work for a living, after father became ill and incapacitated.

Difficult to take sides with anyone here, so try to respect each others POV, instead of :argue:
In fact, I almost said that I was not an Indian giver, but did not write it, because, it is not a kind thing tol say, as well as the intention of its meaning. Actually, is a name that noone should use. It is sort of a racist remark.

slayer

12th March 2004, 06:18 AM

Sonrisa,

previously, slayer- And if you've ever been around servicemen, you'd know that many aren't the brightest individuals,...

Sonrisa --now you're dissing servicemen! So Ernest Hemingway wasn't very bright, huh? John Kennedy wasn't very bright? Along with many others I can't name because they didn't have their 15 minutes of fame, but hey, if you can make your cases with just one example, then I figure I can get by with 2.

slayer -- Logic lesson One. I said MANY servicemen, which doesn't even imply most servicemen. So it doesn't follow that I think Hemingway or Kennedy aren't very bright.

Logic lesson Two. The reason why I can make my case with one counter-example is because you made an absolute claim about all people who hate and Nazis.

You would do well to take a logic course at your local city college.

Sonrisa: what is wrong with dreaming about a better world, & working to make the world a better place? That last part is the operative phrase, btw, because it would be wrong to have the dream, but not act on it. Well maybe not wrong per sé, but pointless.

slayer -- Nothing is wrong with dreaming of a better world. What is wrong is that you offer your pipe-dream solutions as real-world possibilities, which they are not. That makes them dangerous and stupid suggestions; making you irresponsible for being so naive and ignorant.

Sonrisa: don't you have any dreams, Slayer? Is that why you make fun of those of us who do? I expect a serious answer to my question here, so if all you got is a snide, smarmy one, you can keep it behind your teeth.

slayer -- I'm only replying because you asked so nicely. Of course I have dreams, and they're not all smutty either. I have a dream that the level of intelligence of the average man will, someday, increase. This will do more for bettering the world than anything else I can think of. I also dream about playing jacks naked with Jane March, but that's probably not what you had in mind.

sweet dreams,

slayer

sonrisa

15th March 2004, 04:52 PM

slayer -- Logic lesson One. I said MANY servicemen, which doesn't even imply most servicemen. So it doesn't follow that I think Hemingway or Kennedy aren't very bright.

Logic lesson Two. The reason why I can make my case with one counter-example is because you made an absolute claim about all people who hate and Nazis.

-- I just went back into Oxymorons (for the 1st time in over a week) to doublecheck what I actually posted. You & Fu* got something going there! But I've decided I really don't want to get derailed back into that. Besides, a more appropriate question for this discussion is- why do you waste your time burning hate, if you've only got this one life? (I've decided to take a Taoist approach here, if you say you only got one life & when it's over you fade to black, then that's what you got & that's what you do) I would never waste time in any of my lives doing something so non-productive, so it seems strange to me that somebody who has only one life would do so.

slayer--You would do well to take a logic course at your local city college.

-- thanx for the suggestion Mr Spock. Has anybody told you that it is illogical to burn hate?

Sonrisa: what is wrong with dreaming about a better world, & working to make the world a better place? That last part is the operative phrase, btw, because it would be wrong to have the dream, but not act on it. Well maybe not wrong per sé, but pointless.

slayer -- Nothing is wrong with dreaming of a better world. What is wrong is that you offer your pipe-dream solutions as real-world possibilities, which they are not. That makes them dangerous and stupid suggestions; making you irresponsible for being so naive and ignorant.

-- do you ever think outside the box? What were pipe dreams in the past are reality today, & what seems like pipe dreams today could be reality in the future, if people would work to make them real. There are many cases when people set out to effect change, & they know that the end results will not occur in their current lifetimes. But somebody has to lay the groundwork & get it started or the dream will never happen. Sometimes it is a process over the course of several lifetimes. There are things I'm working on now that I probably started on in a past life, & they probably won't come to fruitian in my current life, but in a future life. That's the way it is sometimes.

Sonrisa: don't you have any dreams, Slayer? Is that why you make fun of those of us who do? I expect a serious answer to my question here, so if all you got is a snide, smarmy one, you can keep it behind your teeth.

slayer -- Of course I have dreams. I have a dream that the level of intelligence of the average man will, someday, increase. This will do more for bettering the world than anything else I can think of.

-- A very good dream, if a bit general. So you are doing what to effect this dream...

and you just couldn't keep it behind you teeth, couldja?

slayer--I also dream about playing jacks naked with Jane March, but that's probably not what you had in mind.

--jacks?!!? that's it?? just playing jacks? that's all?!!? not jac- oh no nevermind! :goodlaugh: no way am I going there!! :goodlaugh:

oh slayer, slayer!! u r so much fun! I really do mean that in the very best possible way so please don't take offense.

:goodlaugh: :chairdrop: :rofl:

thanx for brightening up my day, ta!

sonrisa

15th March 2004, 05:10 PM

Nearly missed your post Richie. I'd say it was fortunate you got that dependency discharge. If you had been in the midst of combat you might not be with us today, so it is good that you were not.

Enjoy your B'day! :)

sonrisa

2nd April 2004, 01:30 PM

Yes folx it is definitetly time to celebrate cuz I just got my 1040's done (finally!) & with 2 weeks to spare! Now all I gotta do is get the suckah in the mail later on today! But for now it's Millah time! (pop!)
:D

rich

2nd April 2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by sonrisa@Mar 15 2004, 06:10 PM
Nearly missed your post Richie. I'd say it was fortunate you got that dependency discharge. If you had been in the midst of combat you might not be with us today, so it is good that you were not.

Enjoy your B'day! :)
Dear Sonrisa, Speak about missing posts, WOW, I missed this one competly, will have to :wallbash: into my head. It just goes to show you, how often I read the mail here. :uhoh:

The reason I don't, is cuz, do not expect anything. Still, 'tis nice to :computer: via posting, w/o :begging: for a response. Nice hearing from one, w/ same political leanings.
:applause:

zygoat

7th April 2004, 08:47 AM

vicente,

"The US will never start a war," the president said. "We do not want a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall do our part to build a world of peace..." - John F Kennedy June1963
one word

BAY OF PIGS!!!!!! :huh:

sonrisa

7th April 2004, 09:52 AM

And it's always nice to read your posts too Richie :)

zygoat

8th April 2004, 04:59 AM

vicente

QUOTE
"The US will never start a war," the president said. "We do not want a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall do our part to build a world of peace..." - John F Kennedy June1963

oh and there's the time he sent 26,000 troops to a little place called VIETNAM!!! :knockout:

a random hack

8th April 2004, 10:40 AM

have we liberated those Iraqis enough yet ?

slayer

9th April 2004, 07:27 AM

War bad. Relativist morons good. War hurt. Ignoring bad men and bad countries good. War naughty. Turning the other cheek without offering practical solutions means we're better. WWI bad. WWII bad. Germany under Hitler was a sovereign nation, therefore US should not have stopped him. Holocaust would have just ended on its own. We who cherish all life at all costs good. Those who kill bad people who hurt the innocent bad. We all agree and smile at each other, therefore we're right. Bush and cronies bad. Bush stupid. Oh wait, he's more educated than us liberal dumb a****s.

Sorry to break this to you, morons, but Vietnam was a good idea gone bad due to you liberal retards.

The War on Iraq is going very well, nimrods. Keep listening to the BBC, the greatest farce of objective reporting this world has ever known. Keep thinking the number of lives lost there is anything close to what we've lost in past wars. If you weren't so squeamish about killing and doing what's politically and militarily necessary, then you wouldn't be whining about Bush so much. Instead you'd be praising him for the great president he is turning out to be.

Four more years!

slayer

sahyo

9th April 2004, 11:07 AM

:lol: "educated" only knowledge

sonrisa

9th April 2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by a random hack@Apr 7 2004, 10:40 PM
have we liberated those Iraqis enough yet ?

no, Random, they ain't all dead yet

rich

9th April 2004, 10:17 PM

I finally see, how slayer earned his name.

[color=purple] Quote from slayer: War bad. Relativist morons good. War hurt. Ignoring bad men and bad countries good. War naughty. Turning the other cheek without offering practical solutions means we're better. WWI bad. WWII bad. Germany under Hitler was a sovereign nation, therefore US should not have stopped him. Holocaust would have just ended on its own. We who cherish all life at all costs good. Those who kill bad people who hurt the innocent bad. We all agree and smile at each other, therefore we're right. Bush and cronies bad. Bush stupid. Oh wait, he's more educated than us liberal dumb a****s.

Sorry to break this to you, morons, but Vietnam was a good idea gone bad due to you liberal retards.

The War on Iraq is going very well, nimrods. Keep listening to the BBC, the greatest farce of objective reporting this world has ever known. Keep thinking the number of lives lost there is anything close to what we've lost in past wars. If you weren't so squeamish about killing and doing what's politically and militarily necessary, then you wouldn't be whining about Bush so much. Instead you'd be praising him for the great president he is turning out to be.

Four more years!

slayer 

slayer, Are you a real American, really? :huh: :shakehead: :reallysad: Very sad, :cry:

sonrisa

10th April 2004, 05:16 AM

no Richie, he appears to be a bushit

sahyo

10th April 2004, 06:01 AM

:lol:

slayer

10th April 2004, 07:29 AM

Dear Rich,

Yes, Rich, I'm a real American. Are you? Or, are you like these other liberal nimrods who are living in a fantasy world where wars can just be wished away, where bad people can just be ignored, where Sonrisas and Asheeras are considered not-stupid, where everyone is an anti-American hiding behind Peace At All Costs banners.

I'm pro killing when that killing is to prevent a criminal from killing the innocent. All of you liberal pansies are pro peace, but you never address the part where the guy is killing the innocent. You never address it because you have no PRACTICAL solutions.

And, yes, I know you served in WWII. Believe me, if anybody is grateful to our servicemen, it's me. But don't try to use that as support for why you're right or more of an American.

I'm a real American because my opinions are in accord with what would continue to keep America the great nation that it is. I have served and I have taken the time and effort to learn about the world, philosophy, and politics, so that my opinions are not naive or likely mistaken. But the great majority here are ignorant and poor reasoners, and their opinions are a byproduct of these failings. I don't care about their good intentions, because their stupidity trumps any brownie points they would have received for loving America. No, they are detriments to this country, because they infest public opinion with their bilge. The more stupid people this country has, the more likely that stupid opinions will become public opinion, which in turn will effect certain legislation.

No, I'm named slayer because I would do away with these morons. I would kick them out of this country, or deny them the right to vote. I wouldn't go so far as saying I'd erradicate them, but their loss wouldn't be cause for mourning -- not for me. I don't think you really know how much I do hate -- and they are the object of my hate. They are the stupid meek, who nevertheless have voting rights, which is a great danger to our country.

I truly do hate, Rich, and it's liberals like you, Sonrisa, Asheera, Hack, etc., etc., that I hate.

I hate the rabble, the mob, the herd, the public -- they nauseate me.

the real American,

slayer

sahyo

10th April 2004, 07:51 AM

:goodlaugh:

sonrisa

10th April 2004, 04:53 PM

:goodlaugh: :chairdrop: :rofl:

sonrisa

11th April 2004, 05:10 PM

what a load!! I can almost hear the velcro tabs popping off his pamper when he dropped it.

rich

12th April 2004, 12:33 AM

:hahaha: :ph34r: <--slayer

:twoguns: :ph34r: <--slayer--> :scatter:

zygoat

13th April 2004, 07:57 AM

a random hack,
have we liberated those Iraqis enough yet ?

we????????? <_<

sonrisa

15th April 2004, 03:29 PM

here's the so-called Real American on a late great American:

(3) "The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that". - Martin Luther King, Jr.
re (3): Well, since violence destroyed the extirmination of the Jews of Europe by the Nazis, I'm thinking MLK is wrong. Violence is the just and the proper response sometimes. This is a moral tenet, not just a politcal one. Thanks, MLK, for the darkness metaphor. Of course "darkness" and "light" have bad and good connotations, so you're already begging the question, but thanks for the pretty language. MLK would never be the darling of the American populace if it weren't for Malcolm X, a greater fighter of justice than MLK. Malcolm X was the champion of the downtrodden blacks, because they knew that he stood up for their dignity and their rights. And they understood very well the violence and injustice perpretrated on them by the society at large, so to them, watching a black child get beaten, a black woman raped, a black man lynched, without doing anything to stop it was immoral, unjust, and contrary to their humanity. And they were right!

Had I been Reginald Denny, I would have said, "hang those cowards!", not "can't we all just get along."

slayer [/QUOTE]

um, didn't Rodney King say that?

You may have to scroll down a little bit after clicking these linx....

click here to see some Real Americans (http://www.cincydemo.blogspot.com)

(ok you'll have to scroll down quite a bit)

click here to see some Real American art (http://www.artofresistance.org/rumsfeld_mosaic/index.html)

then there's this... (http://www.bushorchimp.com)

sonrisa

16th April 2004, 01:23 PM

well. I'm in the mood to do some dissecting tonite, but first let me kick this rotted out old soapbox outta the way... :)

slayer--I'm pro killing when that killing is to prevent a criminal from killing the innocent.

-- oh, you mean like dubya & rumsfeld bombing the hell out of innocent Iraqis?

slayer--All of you liberal pansies

--this is derogatory

slayer--are pro peace, but you never address the part where the guy is killing the innocent. You never address it because you have no PRACTICAL solutions.

--http://www.dopc.us

slayer--I'm a real American because my opinions are in accord with what would continue to keep America the great nation that it is.

--& these opinions would be...

slayer- I have served

--served what? hash? bacon? eggs?

slayer-- I have taken the time and effort to learn about the world, philosophy, and politics, so that my opinions are not naive or likely mistaken.

-- :goodlaugh: sounds alot like famous last words.....

slayer-- But the great majority here are ignorant and poor reasoners, and their opinions are a byproduct of these failings. I don't care about their good intentions, because their stupidity trumps any brownie points they would have received for loving America. No, they are detriments to this country, because they infest public opinion with their bilge.

--& what about your bilge? Do we have to be infested with that?

slayer- The more stupid people this country has, the more likely that stupid opinions will become public opinion, which in turn will effect certain legislation.

-- what legislation would that be, & have you looked in a mirror lately, btw?

slayer--No, I'm named slayer because I would do away with these morons. I would kick them out of this country, or deny them the right to vote.

--this is so unAmerican it is anti-American. Our tradition is to welcome people here ("give me your tired, your poor, your wretched masses...") not kick them out. And we don't believe in disenfranchisement, just the opposite we encourage people to vote

slayer--wouldn't go so far as saying I'd erradicate them,

--well isn't that decent of you Adolf

slayer-- I don't think you really know how much I do hate

-- do we really want to?

slayer--They are the stupid meek

--who shall inherit the earth...

slayer--I truly do hate, Rich, and it's liberals like you, Sonrisa, Asheera, Hack, etc., etc., that I hate.

I hate the rabble, the mob, the herd, the public -- they nauseate me.

--thank you for sharing that
(do you need a bucket?)

slayer--the real American,

-- :goodlaugh: yeah right

ps, the diversity of our society is part of what makes this country great. You want homoginization? Go drink a glass of milk. It does a body good. Can't say about the mind tho

sonrisa

16th April 2004, 01:26 PM

for ome reason the link in my previous post didn't take

if interested, click here (http://www.dopc.us)

sonrisa

1st May 2004, 03:08 AM

to get back to discussing the Sacred Sites, found this in my hotmailbox---

Message From Arvol Looking Horse
Mitakuye (my relative),
I, Chief Arvol Looking Horse of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota Nation, would like to ask for this time for you to understand an Indigenous perspective in reflection of what has happened in America, what we call "Turtle Island". For the past six years, my work has concentrated on an effort on uniting the Global community, through a message from our sacred ceremonies in recognizing a day of World Peace and Prayer on June 21st as a time to unite spiritually, each in our own ways of beliefs in the Creator.
We have been warned from the messages, passed down from Ancient Prophecies of these times we live in today, but also a very important message of a solution to turn these terrible times around. To assist you in understanding the depth of this message involves the recognition in the importance of Sacred Sites. It is important that you realize the whole interconnectedness of what is happening today, in reflection of the continued massacres that are occurring on other lands and our own Americas. I have been learning about these important issues of Sacred Sites since the age of 12, upon receiving the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle and it's teachings. Our people have strived to protect Sacred Sites from the beginning of time. There needs to be an understanding in the concern of the protection of Sacred Sites that goes deeper than just the issue of Shrines built by humans. Our people have built similar objects and Shrines to identify and to remind the significance in the power of the Sacred Site. We have also witnessed them being destroyed for many decades, but we also realize it is what is underneath them that is important. These places have been violated for centuries and have brought us to this predicament that we are in concerning the unstable Global Level thus far. Look around you, our Mother Earth is very ill from these violations and we are at a brink of destroying a healthy and nurturing survival for generations to come, our children's children.
Our ancestors have been trying to protect our Sacred Site from the continued violations called the Sacred Black Hills in SD, "Heart of Everything that is". Our ancestors never seen this site from a Satellite view, but now that those pictures are available with modern technology, we see that it is in the shape of a heart and when fast forwarded it looks like a heart pumping. The Dine have been protecting Big Mountain, calling it the liver and now that the coal is depleting, we are suffering and going to suffer more from the extraction of the coal and poison processes used in doing so. The Aborigines has warned of the contaminating effects on the Corral Reefs from Global Warming, which they see as Mother Earth's blood purifier, our sacred water is being polluted. The Indigenous people of the Rain Forest relay that the Rain Forest are the lungs and need protection and now we see the Brazilian Government approved the depletion of 50% of this Sacred Site. The Gwich'in Nation has an issue of oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge coastal plain, also known to the Gwich'in as 'Where the life begins!' The coastal plain is also the birthplace of many other life forms of Animal Nations. The death of these Animal Nations will destroy Indigenous Nations in this territory. As these destructive developments continue all over the world, we will witness many more extinct Animal, Plant and Human Nations, because of the misuse of power that mankind has made and their lack of understanding the "balance of life".
The Indigenous people warn that these destructive developments will cause havoc globally. There are many, many more Indigenous awareness's and knowledge of Mother Earth's Sacred Sites, connections (Mother Earth's Chakras) to our spirit that will surely affect our future generations. These people are still suffering from this contamination and their livelihood is being destroyed as I write this to you. There needs to be a fast move toward other forms of energy that are safe for all Nations upon Mother Earth. We need to understand the whole picture in the type of minds that are continuing to destroy the spirit of our whole Global Community. Unless we do this, the powers of destruction will overwhelm us.
Our Ancestors foretold that water would someday be for sale. Back then this was hard to believe, since the water was so plentiful, so pure, and so full of energy, nutrition and spirit. Today we have to buy pure water, and even then the nutritional minerals have been taken out; it's just empty liquid. Someday water will be like gold, too expensive to afford. Not everyone will have the right to drink safe water.
We fail to appreciate and honor our Sacred Sites, ripping out the minerals and gifts that lay underneath them, as if Mother Earth were simply a resource, instead of the Source of Life itself. Attacking Nations and having to utilize more resources to carry out the destruction in the name of Peace and elimination is not the answer! We need to understand how all these decisions affects the Global Nation, we will not be immune to it's repercussions. To allow continual contamination of our food and land, is now affecting the way we think. A "disease of the mind" has set in World Leaders and many members of our Global Community, with their understanding that a solution of retaliation and destruction of peoples will bring Peace.
In our Prophecies it is told that we are now at the Crossroads, either unite Spiritually as a Global Nation, or be faced with chaos, disasters, diseases and tears from our relatives eyes. In times of disasters it is sad to say that it is the only time that we unite spiritually, but we must not taint it with anger and retaliation.
We are the only species that is destroying the Source of life, meaning Mother Earth, in the name of power, mineral resources and ownership of land, using methods of chemicals and warfare that is becoming irreversible, as Mother Earth is becoming tired and can not sustain any more impacts of war. I ask you to join me on this endeavor. Our vision is for the Peoples of all continents, regardless of their beliefs in the Creator, to come together as one at their Sacred Sites at that sacred moment of what is known as the Summer Solstice of June 21st, to pray and meditate and commune with one another, thus promoting an energy shift to heal our Mother Earth and achieve a universal consciousness toward attaining Peace.
As each day passes bringing us to this day of concentration together, I ask the Global Nations to begin a Global effort, in knowing that each and every one of us are making a daily effort in waking to a gratitude of another day, that is gifted to us and begin to remember to give thanks for the Sacred Food that has been also gifted to us by our Mother Earth, so the nutritional energy of medicine can be guided to heal our minds and spirits. This new millennium will usher in an age of harmony or it will bring the end of life as we know it. Starvation, war and toxic waste have been the hallmark of the Great Myth of Progress and Development that ruled the last millennium.
To us, as caretakers of the heart of Mother Earth, falls the responsibility of turning back the powers of destruction. We have come to a time and place of great urgency. The fate of future generations rests in our hands. We must understand the two ways we are free to follow, as we choose-the positive way or the negative way.the spiritual way or the material way.
It's our own choice--each of ours and all of ours. You yourself are the one who must decide. You alone-and only you--can make this crucial choice. Whatever you decide is what you'll be, to walk in honor or to dishonor your relatives. You can't escape the consequences of your own decision.
On your decision depends the fate of the entire World. You must decide. You can't avoid it. Each of us is put here in this time and this place to personally decide the future of humankind. Did you think the Creator would create unnecessary people in a time of such terrible danger?
Know that you yourself are essential to this World.
Believe that!
Understand both the blessing and the burden of that.
You yourself are desperately needed to save the soul of this World.
Did you think you were put here for something less?
In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no beginning and no ending!
Mitakuye Oyasin,
Chief Arvol Looking Horse
19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe
http://www.spiritwheel.com/