American Politics Beyond Border?

[shifu]

Minorities are not a threat this time. Collectivism is the cream of the crop. Nations are now looking into the Great Beyond: Globalization, with eyes fixed on industrial development for human advancement, and World Peace. We, from small and irrelevant nations were believed to be of having an immense role in participative process. But in reality, it is what we call consuelo de bobo (consolation for the dumb). United Nations Leadership is treated like dump too. The US, in it’s thirst to make war pursued what he wants: to show to the entire nations that America is the World Police and the new Civilization’s New Beacon Light bearer. Meditating from what the US had done in its War on Terror in Iraq dispite UN’s intervention; I could say that America was corrupted by its own Power and its government is experiencing a paranoia of Terror by its own making.

Does the American experience of 911 will justify enough to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? How can we speak in terms of peace at gun point? Violence begets violence. The 911 is a lesson for us all that Peace preceeds Development and vice versa. And thre is no way to reap good fruit from bad seeds.

shifu

[Polaris]

Lord Acton, 1887.

'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men'.

[shifu]

Well-quoted Madame Polaris. I've quoted Lord Acton also in my thesis the Civil Society. BTW, do you know exactly what book or writings did he wrote that?

shifu

[Polaris]

Originally posted by shifu@Oct 20 2003, 02:08 AM
Well-quoted Madame Polaris. I've quoted Lord Acton also in my thesis the Civil Society. BTW, do you know exactly what book or writings did he wrote that?

shifu
I didn't know so I did a quick search. It says :

Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887

I don't know the occasion though.

[shifu]

Thanks Madame! :)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by shifu@Oct 21 2003, 08:03 AM
Thanks Madame! :)
You are most welcome. :)

[shifu]

I’m just wondering why, hmmm… <_< is this a hot topic that every body wants to avoid? Hey guys say something! Are you afraid of Bush? :ph34r:

[Polaris]

Originally posted by shifu@Oct 30 2003, 11:33 PM
I’m just wondering why, hmmm… <_< is this a hot topic that every body wants to avoid? Hey guys say something! Are you afraid of Bush? :ph34r:
Maybe they are afraid that Homeland Security will drag them off and throw them in a dungeon without a trial. :mellow:

[rich]

Originally posted by Polaris+Oct 31 2003, 08:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Polaris @ Oct 31 2003, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shifu@Oct 30 2003, 11:33 PM
I’m just wondering why, hmmm… <_< is this a hot topic that every body wants to avoid? Hey guys say something! Are you afraid of Bush?* :ph34r:
Maybe they are afraid that Homeland Security will drag them off and throw them in a dungeon without a trial. :mellow: [/b][/quote]

Reminds me of the play written by Sinclair Lewis in the '30's or 40's,

It Can't Happen Here.
It's message, Wake up America, before its too late. :) :(

[a random hack]

Huh? (http://www.bestandworst.com/pages/voteresult/voteresult-28.html)

Oh! (http://suzyred.com/quoteevil.html)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by rich+Oct 31 2003, 01:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rich @ Oct 31 2003, 01:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by -Polaris@Oct 31 2003, 08:16 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--shifu@Oct 30 2003, 11:33 PM
I’m just wondering why, hmmm… <_< is this a hot topic that every body wants to avoid? Hey guys say something! Are you afraid of Bush? :ph34r:
Maybe they are afraid that Homeland Security will drag them off and throw them in a dungeon without a trial. :mellow:

Reminds me of the play written by Sinclair Lewis in the '30's or 40's,

It Can't Happen Here.
It's message, Wake up America, before its too late. :) :( [/b][/quote]
Because I'm a literary moron and had never heard of that book I had to look it up.

Here is a little ditty of a review

It Can't Happen Here (http://www.motherbird.com/Can'tHap.htm)

I like the last paragraph on that page but I'm not sure when this review was written. Maybe it was written pre-Bushian.

" IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE was issued in a new edition in 1993. At the moment, there seems less chance of the current equivalents of Lewis’s villains gaining dictatorial power in this country than there was a few years ago, because the economy has improved - but the equivalents are still there on the sidelines, waiting for the next big economic down turn to try for power."

[sonrisa]

has to be pre-bushian: the villians are in power & the economy has not improved.

[sahyo]

"villians"?

[DavidS]

Originally posted by asheera@Nov 2 2003, 01:37 PM
"villians"?
That's a term which is used to reference the on-stage 'role' or 'character' of certain folks, asheera - doesn't pertain to where you hang your hat.

In case you feel like engaging with the whole 'role' or 'character' issue, Webster's Unabridged lists:

villain: ...2. a wicked or unprincipld characte in a novel, play, etc. (in this case, the 'play' is the Play of Life on the world-stage) who opposes the protagonist or hero.

I assume you have had plenty of opportunity to 'know' that there are things like 'protagonists' and 'heroes' in plays, etc.

[shifu]

oppps! Thanks guys for dropping by. To clarify, I started this thread because I want to know what American People themselves thinks about its Government and about its Government’s International Policy concerning National and International Security. I appreciate the US move of combating Terrorism, but to move beyond protocols and sovereignty, in my opinion, America will make a lot more enemies than allies. Means will not justify the End.

shifu

[rich]

IMO, villains = those who have a political POV different than mine.

They may appear outwardly as nice people, and inwardly they probably are. But to my POV, their political philosopy makes them 'bad guys' or 'villains', to me. :lol:

[shifu]

American's called us Little Brown Brothers! We fought side by side with the JI Joe’s during WWII. American's Helped us gain our Freedom from the Japanese Occupation, hence, honestly speaking we don’t have the military machinery. In exchange for our safety, our politicians agreed to have US Bases in our country and also agreed to Utilized our Natural resources; Parity Rights: That Americans have the same right with Filipinos to exploit our land’s natural resources. 50 years have passed nothing changed.

So, it seems to me:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Villains = American Government.
International Thief = American Economic/Political Policies.
Big Liar = American Politics/Politicians.
Idiots/pigs/crocks = Filipino politicians who is always after American Aid.
American People = Affluent Life Style at the expense of Developing Countries.
Filipinos = Dreaming the American Dream.</span>Sorry for being too rude...folks!

shifu

[rich]

I am sorry Shifu, for the way your people are treated by Americans.

I am certain that many Americans have no idea of the actual living conditions which some American capitalists have imposed on the fillopino people. About all you folks can do, is keep repeating your message until those in power hear it. Eventually some will listen, and start some corrective action.

Please bear with us. Thanks.

[sonrisa]

Today is Election Day. And not just any election day, but perhaps the most important in the entire century. We are living in a very crucial period of our planet's history & the future of the planet may very well depend on who you vote for today. These are your candidates:

Candidate A- associates with crooked politicians & other shady individuals. He chain-smokes & drinks at least one martini a day. He's married, but has at least 2 mistresses.

Candidate B- is a decorated war hero. He doesn't smoke or drink, save for an occasional beer (social drinking) & (for those of you who are veg) doesn't eat meat. He did have a mistress, but eventually made her an honest woman by marrying her.

Those are your choices people. Think carefully & choose wisely, the future of our planet depends on it!

Made your choice? Scroll down...













keep scrolling



















OK. The crucial period in our planet's history is WWII, & Candidate A- the chain-smoking drunk who consorts with fast politicians & faster women- that's Franklin Roosevelt. As for Candidate B- the straight A war hero, & supposed pillar of society, uh, did I mention that he's big on slave labor, genocide, & human medical experimentation? That's right folx, if you picked Canddiate B, you voted to be leader, or rather Fuhrer, of our planet, Adolf Hitler.

so many people blow off so-called off year local elections, yet the elections that we the voters can most influence are these same off year local/regional elections, not the big national elections, such as the one next year. So, don't forget to vote today! :)

[rich]

The trouble with politics is, that most who enter politics as a career, have to say things people want to hear. Some even do not believe in what they are saying, and will deny saying it, if they think their chances have been ruined by saying it. One has to be a confirmed liar
to be a successful politician. Requires that type of a personality.

We hope that those we vote for will be the Mr. Deeds or Mr. Smith types of politicians as portrayed by the Gary Cooper's and Jimmy Stewart's of the cinema. :unsure:

To be a politician, one must have a super-ego. :o ;)

[shifu]

I am sorry Shifu, for the way your people are treated by Americans.

I am certain that many Americans have no idea of the actual living conditions which some American capitalists have imposed on the fillopino people…..

Well taken Sir, I appreciate it. Honestly, I am not anti-American. America i.e. who loves freedom & equality. The America of George Washington, John Quincy Adams and many more. We too had dreamt for that.

Personally, to some point I have nothing against American People….Mine ill feelings is only to the American Government and its policy. My only challenge to the American People is please evaluate your lifestyle because the comfort that you have from sunrise till sundown are the basic necessity that your Capitalist steal in the developing counties. Do not think that you have paid it fairly. Your Capitalist and your Government cheated it for all of you at the other’s expense.

About all you folks can do, is keep repeating your message until those in power hear it. Eventually some will listen, and start some corrective action.

Sir Rich, I remember too well the song “Sound of Silence.” At some point as a young activist before, I had a thought of anarchy as a solution. IMO every misguided American policy begets anti-American sentiments, anti-American sentiments begets terrorism.

To be a politician, one must have a super-ego. :o ;)

I have read once an article of Native American History that helped understand what kind American politicians are. I am not sure who says it ( Red Cloud or Sitting Bull) it says: The whiteman made us many promises...but they keep only one. They promise to take our Land and they took it...

shifu

[Polaris]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Nov 4 2003, 02:19 PM

Candidate A- associates with crooked politicians & other shady individuals. He chain-smokes & drinks at least one martini a day. He's married, but has at least 2 mistresses.

Candidate B- is a decorated war hero. He doesn't smoke or drink, save for an occasional beer (social drinking) & (for those of you who are veg) doesn't eat meat. He did have a mistress, but eventually made her an honest woman by marrying her.


OK. The crucial period in our planet's history is WWII, & Candidate A- the chain-smoking drunk who consorts with fast politicians & faster women- that's Franklin Roosevelt. As for Candidate B- the straight A war hero, & supposed pillar of society, uh, did I mention that he's big on slave labor, genocide, & human medical experimentation? That's right folx, if you picked Canddiate B, you voted to be leader, or rather Fuhrer, of our planet, Adolf Hitler.


That's funny. I've heard that type of thing before but being on the "Commonwealth" side of the border it was always a comparison between the cigar loving, boozing skin-dog who did poorly in school... Churchill and the clean-cut straight A student.. Hitler.

[sonrisa]

I think that was being passed around to show that you can't choose a political candidate based on what they do in their private lives. Bill Clinton & his administration did alot of good for the country, yet, fueled by the media, everybody made a big deal about that stupid blue dress, a matter that should of been between Bill & Hillary. Infact, history shows that many of the best & brightest political leaders led somewhat less than savory personal lives. Like Hitler some 70 years ago, this current regime came into power thru cheating & chicanery, has been lying to the public from day 1, & turned Clinton's budget surplus into a deficit that may bankrupt this country in less than a quarter of a century, but nobody sees to care about that. I recently heard some woman say thank god that we have a pResident who believes in god & lives out his faith. Except that dubya claims he's been "divinely appointed' & last time I looked, that's the starting point for meglomania. Hitler thought he was on some mission from god, too.

A couple weeks ago I heard somebody talking about how the elections that we, as voters, can most influence are not the big splashy national elections that people make a point to vote in, but the local/regional elections that people tend to blow off. Some of the people you elect in these "starter" elections are going to be running things nationally 10-20 years from now so pick carefully who you vote for. Just think: if the people in Texas had been savvier about voting, & who to vote for, they wouldn't have elected dubya dogcatcher, much less their governor, & maybe the world wouldn't be in the mess it's in right now.

[Polaris]

We watched "Bowling for Columbine" last night. Didn't finish it yet because it was getting late so we'll probably finish tonight or tomorrow. Excellent production for those who like to be slapped in the face with reality. I give it two thumbs up.

[sonrisa]

high flippin time! Now I wanna know-do Canadians really leave your doors unlocked?

[a random hack]

do Canadians really leave your doors unlocked?
With Americans for neighbours, are you kidding? ;) :lol:

I recently heard some woman say thank god that we have a pResident who believes in god
:lol: seems some folk don't think too hard, do they?

We hope that those we vote for will be the Mr. Deeds or Mr. Smith types of politicians as portrayed by the Gary Cooper's and Jimmy Stewart's of the cinema.
have heard it said that an honest politician is one that stays bought :D


Just think: if the people in Texas had been savvier about voting, & who to vote for, they wouldn't have elected dubya dogcatcher, much less their governor, & maybe the world wouldn't be in the mess it's in right now.
seems there's always some overqualified village idiot willing to run the world :P

[sonrisa]

good observations Random. The last one reminds me of a shirt that a friend has that sez "somewhere in Texas a village is missing it's idiot."

But, as I pointed out in that quote, if we the voters were savvier about voting & who to vote for in local/regional elections (in ANY country, not just the United States) we wouldn't be electing village idiots into office, esp into ones that torpedo them into the position of running the world.

Also, not all evil-doers are stupid, as Polaris pointed out in her last post, Hitler made A's in school.
cool foto, very guru-like :)

[rich]

They will always find an idiot.

The nature of the job, requires one to be willing to is willing to be scrutinizd, and make available to the public, and remember everything he/she have ever done or said. If not done, the media will crucify you. One must be an idiot, if willing to undergo that scrutiny. B)

Anyone that is a politician is an egotist, as much as those that compete in a beauty paegant are. :mellow:

[Polaris]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Nov 6 2003, 07:49 PM
high flippin time! Now I wanna know-do Canadians really leave your doors unlocked?
We lock our doors at night. I can't imagine locking them during the day.. especially if I was home at the time. Michael Moore, trucking around opening doors to the homes of complete strangers, I'd probably freak if he walked in on me but once he explained who he was I'd offer him something to eat.

We've had one murder in the history of this town. It wasn't actually murder it was manslaughter. Seems these guy went to the local pub downtown. Got loaded drunk and stumbled out the door to walk home. A feller joined him. They walked along the tracks and buddy passed out in a field. The guy he was with proceeded to remove the his pants and was in the process of raping him when he woke up. The drunk got was so upset that in his drunken fury he beat the living tar out of his assaulter. He went home and passed out. Woke up the next morning and had a foggy memory of what had happened and went directly to the police himself to turn himself in before the body had even been found.

That's the Canadian way. The Mounties always get their man because their man turns himself in. :)

[sahyo]

but once he explained who he was I'd offer him something to eat.


a"who"?.....
couldn't offer unless 'tried' "explained"ing-defineding-a"who"?


That's the Canadian way. The Mounties always get their man because their man turns himself in. :)


hehe....haps seeming'idea' ;)

[a random hack]

But, as I pointed out in that quote, if we the voters were savvier about voting & who to vote for in local/regional elections (in ANY country, not just the United States) we wouldn't be electing village idiots into office, esp into ones that torpedo them into the position of running the world.
hell, you folks don't even have to vote... and how do you expect people to select the right candidate? on their promises? past record? Havw also heard we get the leaders we deserve... :unsure:

Also, not all evil-doers are stupid, as Polaris pointed out in her last post, Hitler made A's in school.
you think village idiots are stupid?
you think grades are a good determinant of intelligence?
cool foto, very guru-like
thanks, care to join my ashram? ;)

The nature of the job, requires one to be willing to is willing to be scrutinizd, and make available to the public, and remember everything he/she have ever done or said. If not done, the media will crucify you. One must be an idiot, if willing to undergo that scrutiny.
seems more to be a requirement of getting elected, rather than a requirement of the job.... would never happen in dictatorship, for example...

Michael Moore, trucking around opening doors to the homes of complete strangers, I'd probably freak if he walked in on me but once he explained who he was I'd offer him something to eat.
just had a mental picture of Polaris answering the door wearing a towel, then inviting MM in and feeding him! :D :lol:

[sonrisa]

I saw Michael Moore speak at one of the local universities last week. he was great! Totally awesome! :)

Random, it's getting late & I have to get up & do a craft show tomorrow- well actually later on today-so I'll get to your post later, when I have time to answer your points. I will say that no, I don't think grades are the sole determinant of intelligence, but can be used as a barometer (which they are) I do think it requires some intelligence to make straight A's, even to fake making A's requires some intelligence on the form of the faker. And there are different forms of intelligence...

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by a random hack@Nov 8 2003, 08:18 AM
cool foto, very guru-like
thanks, care to join my ashram? ;)

r u hitting on me Random? B)

[sahyo]

:)


cool foto, very guru-like


sonrisa

"guru-like" cool?
"charles manson"-like notcool?

[rich]

Just think, only 25 more posts to go for Sonrisa, and then she is a full fledged Guru and all can celebrate. Certainly, A :D Happy Day. :lol:

[sonrisa]

yeah I figure by Thanxgiving I'll have it. :)

[rich]

do the asheera :D method of posting, merely post 23 replies with

the word plink, to match her 'splats' and 'splashes', and a

few smilies, TODAY and you could have yourGuruship

byTOMORROW :lol: :P

[a random hack]

:D
QUOTE (a random hack @ Nov 8 2003, 08:18 AM)
QUOTE
cool foto, very guru-like

thanks, care to join my ashram? wink.gif

r u hitting on me Random? cool.gif

now that wouldn't be very guru-like, would it?


Random, it's getting late & I have to get up & do a craft show tomorrow
cool, what sort of craft?

B)

[shifu]

Madame Polaris,

Exciting/inspiring story! Here in the Philippines, especially with our politicians, even if its too obvious (their crime), they will die to deny it :angry: . I suppose, that is the result of the many American Government’s intervention with our National Politics :ph34r: . Kidding aside if have a chance to migrate I would rather go to Canada rather than to the U.S.

shifu

[sonrisa]

:D
QUOTE (a random hack @ Nov 8 2003, 08:18 AM)
QUOTE
cool foto, very guru-like

thanks, care to join my ashram? wink.gif

r u hitting on me Random? cool.gif

now that wouldn't be very guru-like, would it?

no it wouldn't


Random, it's getting late & I have to get up & do a craft show tomorrow
cool, what sort of craft?

B)
I play with the clay! :D In addition to making ceramicware, I make jewelry, & I'm getting into painting gourds- the next step up from pumpkin molesting! ie, painting faces on pumpkins & selling the little buggars to whoever will buy them. I only do that in Oct tho. These days its ceramic trees, ornaments, & Nativity lamps :)

hell, you folks don't even have to vote...[QUOTE]

and many of us don't, esp when the voting companies are fixing their machines....


[QUOTE] and how do you expect people to select the right candidate? on their promises? past record?

yeah becuz in addition to being savvy, voters should be selfish. When you stand in that voting booth looking over the candidates, you should be thinking, what has/will this dude done/do for me? Becuz if the election is for a higher office, such as Senator or Governor, or whatever the Oz equivalents are, the challenger should also be holding a (lower) political office & have some kind of political record you can draw a conclusion from. That's the thing about Gov Ah-nold: he's a political unknown, has never held a poltical office & is therefore inexperienced. The word I'm getting from California is that the folx out there are waiting for him to screw up.....
But even with inexperienced candidates- who generally run for such offices as city council, or some kind of trustee or commissioner position- these people as a rule are active in their communities, & you can pretty much tell by their activities (which they will make sure get press) if they will represent you if they get in office, & whether or not you should vote for that candidate. If you're not sure what a candidate stands for than don't vote for that person.
To get back to the mock election I posted last week that started this, I will be honest with you: when I saw that thing sitting in my hotmailbox, I suspected something was up- esp since the message that came with it went something like "send this to anybody who still thinks dubya's all that", or something close to it- so I picked Candidate A. However, upon rereading the candidate profiles, I noticed that it was all about their personal habits. The only thing mentioned that was remotely public was Candidate A's consorting with crooked pols. Now if that was a real election I was voting in, I figure I'd know Candidate A's real name- in this case Franklin Roosevelt. So I would figure that Roosevelt was probably consorting with these clowns to get his New Deal programs implemented, which lifted the country out of the Depression. So yeah, I'd vote for Franklin Roosevelt. I don't give a rat's butt about his 2 mistresses. That's between him & Eleanor, who, btw, was getting hers with at least one Secret Service goon. If they wanna have an open marriage, that's their business, not mine.
Unfortunately, too many voters in this country think that sort of stuff is their business, & use it as criteria for voting. So they would go right on ahead & vote for Candidate B, even tho there was no info listed about what he had done to benefit the public or even what he stood for. btw, I posted that thing from memory, & left out Candidate B's stint in the seminary (yeah he was a regular choir boy, wasn't he?)
But perhaps we should be asking Richie's opinion on all this, since he's the only one among us who was around to actually vote for Franklin Roosevelt....

[rich]

Hi Sonrisa,

Sonrisa posted:But perhaps we should be asking Richie's opinion on all this, since he's the only one among us who was around to actually vote for Franklin Roosevelt....

I remember the election in 1940 between FDR and Wendell Wilkie.

I do not remember if the law allowing 18 year olds to vote had been
passed then, but remember being pro-Wilkie, though Roosevelt was the people's choice, usually sided with the underdog. This was before Pearl Harbor, and many people felt FDR's policies would involve America in a war.
In the 1944 election, voted for Tom Dewey for president, and not for FDR. In 1948, did not vote, did not care for Dewey or Truman, and did not have a permanent address then, was working out-of-town.
In 1952, voted for Adlai Stevenson, and most of the time for the Democrats.

IMO. vote as your intuition or Consciousness guides you. :)

[sonrisa]

OK Asheera, I didn't forget you- IMHO Charles Manson is still famous becuz one of his victim's was famous, a movie star & wife of a heavy weight director. Also, heading up a cult may have something to do with it. We seem to remember the Jim Joneses & David Koreshes of the world, but does anybody know who Donald Harvey is? I had forgotten myself until about a year ago, when an article appeared in one of our local papers protesting the upcoming execution of a man (who was subsequntly executed, btw) who had murdered 5 or 7 people. The gist of the article was how can the state execute this dude, not to mention others who had murdered, at most 1 or 2 people, but not Donald Harvey, Cincinnati's very own Angel of Death, who's body count is in the triple digits. If the county can deal Harvey, who is currently serving a life sentence for his many murders, then they have no business sentencing other murderers to death. Can you imagine anything more heinous than putting a pillow over somebody's face & they are too weak to try & push the pillow off, or putting poison in somebody's IV bag & they think it's medicene to help them get better? My point is, that while Harvey's victims were pretty much helpless, none were famous, so he had his 15 minutes of fame & is now living out his life rotting in a jail cell, ignored. Manson, on the other hand, is still famous, after what, 35 years? Becuz one of his victims was Sharon Tate? Becuz he had a weird fascination with Beatle songs? Whatever. Personally, after 35 years I think Charles Manson is old stale news.
After surfing around in that site you posted, I will say that I don't think it's right if he is being discriminated against & not allowed to make phone calls or recieve packages simply becuz of who he is. He should be treated just like the other inmates there- no better, no worse.

[a random hack]

now that wouldn't be very guru-like, would it?

no it wouldn't

:lol: :D

I play with the clay! In addition to making ceramicware, I make jewelry, & I'm getting into painting gourds- the next step up from pumpkin molesting! ie, painting faces on pumpkins & selling the little buggars to whoever will buy them. I only do that in Oct tho. These days its ceramic trees, ornaments, & Nativity lamps
Wicked! Am into painting dots at the moment, but love claying also, tho haven't done it recently :D

regarding politics, seems over here there is a lot of factional dealing out of the public eye, in the two major parties.... and the local favorite seems to get done over regularly for the person with the 'numbers' in the party.... seems politics is a disease anyway :lol:

[sonrisa]

thanx, Richie, for telling us how it was for you back then, & for your voting advice. :)

My Mom claims to have voted for Roosevelt, but she has a very, um interesting, memory, shall we say, & you say he was the people's choice, so maybe she just thinks she voted for Roosevelt. :D


what kind of dots, Random? Polka dots? (yuk, yuk! :lol: :P )

re:politics, in an attempt to broaden my horizons, I read a couple pieces on John Howard, & from what I read, that dude is scarier than dubya. What esp struck me was this woman, can't remember her name, but she was operating out of Queensland, so maybe you know who I mean. She was/is head of a political party there, & Howard, to eliminate the competition had her busted & thrown in jail?!!? Is that true? Did something like that actually happen? The bushits are real scumbags, they fix elections & they outed a CIA spook whose husband they don't like, but nobody's in jail- yet, including the perps since outing a spook is a treasonable offense.

[a random hack]

what kind of dots, Random? Polka dots? (yuk, yuk!* )


yup, how did you guess? :o :blink: B)

[sonrisa]

cuz I'm GOOD B)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by sonrisa@Nov 11 2003, 01:16 AM
cuz I'm GOOD B)
mmmm...hmmmm! :lol:

[a random hack]

so I see :)

[shifu]

Why are you more concern about election? It’s craft of villains. Why not concern about your fellow Americans dying almost everyday in Iraq?

shifu

[rich]

shifu,

The basis of our concern is the Americans there being killed daily because of the mistake of a person to launch an illegal war, sacrificing American lives to maintain, and wants to give America more of the same. The defeat of GWB in the election next year is of prime importance
to bring common sense back to America.

[sahyo]

common sense


:o

[rich]

rich does not understand this post:

QUOTE*

common sense
:o



:unsure: ??

[shifu]

The basis of our concern is the Americans there being killed daily because of the mistake of a person to launch an illegal war, sacrificing American lives to maintain, and wants to give America more of the same. The defeat of GWB in the election next year is of prime importance
to bring common sense back to America.


Hi Rich! Will compared to me, IM-POV, you have the authority, so to speak, in matters of USA issues compared to me. You have my sympathy on that matter. But, I guess, no matter and whoever who is in the Oval Office of the Almighty White House and the Pentagon, if the US policy and the indifference of the American people is still the same........ no peace and development for us down here IMO.

Elections is also at hand (2004) in my country. GWB had visited us here last month, for what? Pigs and crocks are on the lose in my country now. They even attack the supreme court for the vested interest of few congressmen. Bank robbery, drug trafficking and kidnapping is the fund raising of devilish politicians here. Given our situation Rich, Hell with election.

shifu

[DavidS]

Originally posted by shifu@Nov 13 2003, 12:50 AM
Given our situation Rich, Hell with election.
That's my 'sentiment' as well, shifu - except that the 'our' situation in my case refers to the 'situation' of humanity-at-large, which includes the 'situation' of folks in the U.S. and all other contries as well.

The way I 'see' the 'trend', 'materialism', or body·sense-based 'interest', is the 'devil' (referencing Revelation) which was loosed from from the 'pit' with the advent and ascendancy of materialistic Science and derivative Technology. The epidemic rampage of 'materialism' is reflected in in the growth of 'mass'·ive populations, 'mass' production, etc. which result in both environmental and social degradation. Our urban areas and inter·area transportation systems are consuming-n-toxin-polluting-n-tentacle-spreading 'fungal-cancer' 'octopuses'!

I think the description in Revelation is apt, I think: "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

'Hell' may forest-fire-raze the U.S. a 'fraction' of 'time' later than places like the Phillipines (on the other hand, what with Bin Laden and his cronies seeking to 'destroy' U.S. 'interests', it may be the other way around <_< ), but in my estimation, every 'portion' of our 'globe' will suffer catastrophic devastation in due course. 'I' 'saw' this (by simple 'extrapolation' of population- and weapons-proliferation stats) way back in the 60s.

The 'madness' is pervasive, not 'confined' to any particular political-philosophy. For this reason, 'I' haven't 'voted' since then. The few 'lesser evil' candidates I voted for before that didn't even come close to being elected. Once, I watched Nixon make a speech on TV with the sound off, 'stoned' just to 'see' what that would be like. My God! The 'spirit' of the guy was so clearly 'slimey' (and 'dumb'!), I couldn't imagine how anyone with 'eyes that see' could buy into his trip. His election 'educated' me to the 'real' mental status of the American 'majority'.

My 'political philosophy' since then has been to 'support' groups and involved in things like environmental conservation, organic farming, ecology-focused education, and the formation of spiritual communities and schools. That's it.

I 'believe' (not irrationally, but based on 'logic') that 'evil' will destroy itself -- he that 'lives' by the sword will 'perish' by the sword, etc. -- Bin Ladenites and Bushites will take each other over the cliff (unfortunately, along with a lot of 'good', or at least not so 'bad', folks as well).

And I 'look forward' (beyond the 'horizon') to the "new heaven and new earth" which, on Earth or elsewhere, that will surely be -- the 'forest fire' will 'clear the way' for 'new life' -- what with all the congestion and toxicity that have 'taken over' the 'stage', right now, I see-think-believe that to be a 'desirable' 'necessity' -- I hope this doesn't strike you as being a 'callous' point of view -- the 'other side' of Death and Destruction is 'new' Life and Creativity.

[shifu]

Sir David S., I have printed your post in response to my latest post ‘bout elections. Well, I’ve printed it coz I want to be very clear on what I am reading, hence there are some interesting and striking point. I will e mail you privately bout it.

To the point, IMO, I agree with your idea about the ‘Our - situation’ as not only for US folks. We all have some common experience as nation and as a people. Having closely studied History, yes, I do agree that we keep on repeating its patterns.....not history itself coz it is unique and can’t be repeated. Quoting the imagery of the Revelation: "I saw the New Babylon Rising......." IM-POV, Capitalism, pseudo-development, greed etc., has risen but it will come to its own self-destruction. If this how the evolution of human history will go forth, then so be it.

Nevertheless, we can do something....and that I strongly believe. That new Heaven and Earth is not out there somewhere. I believe that it is in the here and now which still to become. Participatory-collective-effort is the key of our miserable condition. Self-determination must be closely safeguarded by international Law so that foreign political (with vested interest) intervention will not be committed by the US government anymore.


Hack, I suppose you are right in what you have posted the other thread saying: seems people are playing leader and follower..... Now, with mutual interest I have a leader and I’m the follower. Want to join us? :( :) :D :lol:

shifu

[fu*]

Shifu>>>Quoting the imagery of the Revelation: "I saw the New Babylon Rising......." IM-POV, Capitalism, pseudo-development, greed etc., has risen<<<

Has risen?
Capitalism, greed.......... new?
Maybe just new to "shifu's" awareness, so seems new.


>>>That new Heaven and Earth is not out there somewhere. I believe that it is in the here and now which still to become.<<<

Isn't the "still to come" still "out there"?

>>>Participatory-collective-effort is the key of our miserable condition<<<

Oh man :o , as long as you believe that, you may always have "miserable condition"

>>>Self-determination must be closely safeguarded by international Law<<<

What?.......... "Self-determination" "safeguarded by international Law"?

You waiting for happiness to come from something/someone else?

Good freeking luck!

Seems you are seeing everything/everyone else, but not what is "seeing".

>>>Now, with mutual interest I have a leader and I’m the follower<<<

Yikes!

See the reflection of the head butting goat?

[sahyo]

"Yikes!"

:D

[DavidS]

Originally posted by shifu@Nov 14 2003, 02:55 AM
I have a leader and I’m the follower.
I don't know in what way you meant the above, but it strikes me a re·view may be in order here, shifu.

The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with learning from what someone else has already demonstrably learned. Everyone doesn't have to rediscover 'Pi' or reinvent the 'wheel', or 'quantum mechanics', or 'plumbing', or rewrite texts already written, for instance. There is much to be said for 'cumulative' 'capitalization' on others' 'information', assuming this is skeptically approached and personally 'verified', as well as on their 'inventions', assuming these strike one as being practically useful in beneficial ways. One can then devote onself, if one is so inclined, to 'new' or 'further' information-gathering ventures and 'new' or 'further' experimentation and invention.

But the above kind of 'following' (metaphorically 'standing on the shoulders' of others who may have 'gone' 'somewhere' 'ahead' of you) is not the same as what is normally meant by being a 'follower' of a 'leader' or 'leaders'. Like social 'codes' and 'laws', which may also be 'slave·ishly' 'followed' (fu*'s 'point'), even if such 'following' is 'voluntary', that kind of 'following' 'betray's and results in a 'travesty' of 'self-determination'.

Hence, the 'wisdom' of the saying (a bit 'extreme' on the other side of the same 'issue', IMO), "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" (this was/is the title of a book, I think).

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Your enthusiasm and willingness to jump headlong into the stream of Life is of great 'service', and I'm sure will continue to be so, shifu.

David :)

[a random hack]

Once, I watched Nixon make a speech on TV with the sound off, 'stoned' just to 'see' what that would be like. My God! The 'spirit' of the guy was so clearly 'slimey' (and 'dumb'!), I couldn't imagine how anyone with 'eyes that see' could buy into his trip. His election 'educated' me to the 'real' mental status of the American 'majority'.

I think this is a great practice :)


Hence, the 'wisdom' of the saying (a bit 'extreme' on the other side of the same 'issue', IMO), "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" (this was/is the title of a book, I think).


kill (http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ykillbud.htm)
the buddha (http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1996/IfYouMeetTheBuddhaOnTheRoad_DiscGrp_4-96.html)

[sahyo]

kill (http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Ykillbud.htm)


:D


the buddha (http://www.humanistsofutah.org/1996/IfYouMeetTheBuddhaOnTheRoad_DiscGrp_4-96.html)



Killing the Buddha on the road means destroying the hope that anything outside of ourselves can be our master. We must each give up the master without giving up the search.


hopesearching not separate thoughtdesiring

[vicente]

Politics Beyond Border?

Katrina vanden Heuvel writes:
Here's an imaginative proposal to help beat Bush. Two Swedish students are proposing that every citizen of the European Union contribute one dollar to MoveOn.org, the online liberal advocacy group, to ensure that "an American president who believes in human rights and multilateral solutions" is elected in 2004. They are not supporting a particular candidate. "We leave that to the Americans."

Hanna Armelius and Kajsa Klein believe that in this increasingly globalized era, where the choice of the next American President will have a direct impact on the world's security, environmental and economic future, global citizens have the right to provide "democracy aid" to the US.

Events since 9/11, they argue, have eroded the Bush Administration's legitimacy. And "ever since the scandal surrounding the Florida election results," they note,"there has been a growing sense that the US needs democracy aid...This stance can be justified by the widespread, international fear of a paranoid President, who has a strikingly limited understanding of the outside world--the same world he feels he has the right to treat whatever way he please, as long as he can claim it to be in the US national interest."

Armelius and Klein wish that money was not a factor in democratic elections, but they are realpolitik enough to know that huge infusions of cash are going to be critical to unseat Bush in the next election. And that the only way this money can be raised is through small contributions by concerned individuals. "This is our way of saying that we don't support a system where rich individuals and multinational corporations control presidential campaigns."

One dollar from each of the EU's citizens, they point out, "would suffice to raise more money than the entire Bush campaign budget for the 2000 elections." Cheap compared to the cost of having Bush in the White House for another four years. (When asked, should only EU citizens contribute, they replied, "No! We want everyone to join us. Per world citizen it would be less than five cents. However, it doesn't seem right to ask the poorest people on earth for money.")

And as for meddling in another country's politics--well, as they point out, the US government has had some overseas experience of its own--with arms deals and rigged elections--when it comes to attempts at overthrowing foreign regimes. What they're proposing involves peaceful, transparent and legal cross- border contributions.

The young Swedes' appeal has a clarity and simplicity that suggests people of sanity understand what America and the world have at stake in this coming election.

[sonrisa]

The pertinent issue to me, at least, is keeping the elections from being fixed. Here in Ohio we already know that the Lie-bold Voting Machine Co sent a memo to the Ohio Repugs promising to deliver our state to dubya next year. How many other states did they promise to deliver to dubya? In light of this knowledge, how to you get folx to vote? Why vote, after all, if it's not gonna count for anything? Of course, the bushits don't want people to vote, they can't win an election, that's why they had to fix the last one. And if they are gonna fix elections, than voting becomes a useless exercise. So that is the problem, as I see it- how to get people to vote, & to make sure their votes count for the person they vote for. Sorry, but I don't have an answer... :unsure:

[a random hack]

why vote if the election is rigged?
why rig the election if people don't vote?

[sonrisa]

to discourage people from voting, jic they get any ideas....

[a random hack]

seems if enough people get pissed off enough with rigged voting (or taxation without representation ;) ), they might get other 'ideas'.....

[sonrisa]

yeah, they just might.... & I've heard that bandied about, too, so maybe they already have. B)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by vicente@Nov 16 2003, 10:15 AM
The young Swedes' appeal has a clarity and simplicity that suggests people of sanity understand what America and the world have at stake in this coming election.
Yes. It was inspiring just to hear about their 'theater'!

But I shudder to think that the 'money' god has them 'worshiping' it too. The pblm, IMO, is that most of the U.S. 'public' is too ideologically 'simplistic' - maybe because they were 'brought up on' 'rugged individualist' and 'cowboys-n-indians' kinds o' myths and entertainment. Money = 'advertising' power, but if you think the US. 'public' is going to 'buy' anything approximating 'mature wisdom' - good luck!

Hoping I'm wrong about this, sadly - David

[shifu]

hey peps the issue leader and follower was a joke intended for Hack, because Hack thought that David S and shifu are playing leader and follower in science/evolution thread. Well, it may be a declaration/affirmation that at least in this/and/that part of the globe individuals have something in common and interest. Aristotle learn from Plato and Plato to Socrates.

Grand Pa fu, I don’t have the authority to interpret //// Shifu>>>Quoting the imagery of the Revelation: "I saw the New Babylon Rising......." IM-POV, Capitalism, pseudo-development, greed etc., has risen<<<////

IMO Our Capitalism now will be lesser evil compared to the coming of the New Babylon. IM-POV it is much more. Grand Pa fu, it may be (Capitalism) seems new to me. I haven’t seen all of its evil compared to you. Salut! to you old folk (?). ;)

//// Isn't the "still to come" still "out there"? ///// It could be here also, but not yet......realized. :lol:

////What?.......... "Self-determination" "safeguarded by international Law"?/// It means that you Americans stay away from our politics and never take part with our national interest. :angry:

nice chating with, fu :)

shifu

[a random hack]

hey peps the issue leader and follower was a joke intended for Hack, because Hack thought that David S and shifu are playing leader and follower in science/evolution thread.
It was? He did? <whooshhhhh>

Hey fu,

you look different, you had a haircut or something? ;D

[vicente]

"Money = 'advertising' power, but if you think the US. 'public' is going to 'buy' anything approximating 'mature wisdom' - good luck! Hoping I'm wrong about this, sadly - David"

The ads say, "the body needs calcium, milk has calcium, drink milk".

What the ads fail to say is that the calcium in homogenized milk not only does not give the body calcium, but draws calcium out of the body. Test after test has shown that milk is the leading cause of osteoporosis, a disease arising from a loss of calcium.

Advertizing is quite a powerful medium.

In the new Rolling Stone:
Bush - Crimes Against Nature
http://www.rollingstone.com/features/natio...en.asp?pid=2154 (http://www.rollingstone.com/features/nationalaffairs/featuregen.asp?pid=2154)

"Cloaked in meticulously crafted language designed to deceive the public, the administration intends to eliminate the nation's most important environmental laws by the end of the year. Under the guidance of Republican pollster Frank Luntz, the Bush White House has actively hidden its anti-environmental program behind deceptive rhetoric, telegenic spokespeople, secrecy and the intimidation of scientists and bureaucrats....

The White House has masked its attacks with euphemisms that would have embarrassed George Orwell. George W. Bush's "Healthy Forests" initiative promotes destructive logging of old-growth forests. His "Clear Skies" program, which repealed key provisions of the Clean Air Act, allows more emissions. The administration uses misleading code words such as streamlining or reforming instead of weakening, and thinning instead of logging".

:(

[sonrisa]

High time a major mag started getting hip to the bushits- & it's written by a Kennedy so that should make folx sit up & take notice...

this is my friend's blog (http://www.cincydemo.blogspot.com)

[Hellas-goldie]

Well I would like to show you something that amused a lot of people here when it came out.It was a kind of article written by Terry jones of Monty Python ,concerning the war in Iraq.This article -letter was sent by Jones to the Observer paper.You may have alredy read it, because it's not so new.
Here in Greece, where the fans of Monty Python may be even more than in England ,this letter became something like a bible.All knew about it, all liked it it was even shared in some schools.Personally I gave it to my students to translate it(as a project).All students laughed very much with it..
It's here
http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2003/...046_comment.php (http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2003/02/4046_comment.php)

or here :(read it, Terry jones ,as always, is fantastic)

Letter to the London Observer, from Terry Jones (Monty Python)
by Terry Jones • Sunday February 23, 2003 at 03:06 PM


Monty Python's Terry Jone's letter re: the war in Iraq

Sunday January 26, 2003


I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I!

For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what.
I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult.

Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want! And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children.

Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.

Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror.

What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves. Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist?

Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims? It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up. Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come. It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

Terry Jones

[sonrisa]

I remember when this piece was making the rounds. I know I passed it on. Thought it was funny. Still do. But, I still wanna know, what is the wind velocity of a swallow? :D

[sonrisa]

an interesting site (http://www.votetoimpeach.org)