The Trapper

[vicente]

DavidS,...seeking to expend my time again? Since I've already answered your questions on more than a few occasions within this forum, I find myself asking if you are serious,...however, I'll indulge you.

Fortunately, I've understood very young, as Descartes said in his axiomatic principle, that "all I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know that these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once". As such, "honest verification" obviously does not use the senses to uncover truth,...ie,.what colour is a banana? Honestly, a banana has no colour,...a banana absorbs nearly all the frequencies of the visible spectrum, except yellow, which it reflects.

A non-sense line of inquiry naturally led to the question of belief, and how much did underlying belief undermine the result. I soon realized that belief, like the senses, fully distorted the answer to any question,...so, since belief arose through thinking, the thinking process had to be reigned in.

It was at that time, in the late 70's, which I realized that Descartes' great observation, "I think therefore I Am" was upsidedown. How can the "i think", the little i, the ego, the not self, come before the I Am? This observation presented two questions to verify,...first, do I understand what an 'I Am' is,...Am I my thinking? And second, can I separate myself from my thinking?

It is said that a student of Buddha, desirous to make an offering, brough him a flowering branch. On presenting it, Buddha said, "throw it away". So the devotee threw away the branch. However, Buddha again said, "throw it away". But the student did not know what to throw away. Then Buddha said, "throw yourself away".

For me, my answer to these questions came through an odd way, one which very much upsets the beliefs of many people. In the beginning of a November in Montana, I was asked, and for some reason accepted, to trap a 45K acre area for the season (November-March). Only in the following year did I realize why I agreed to do that job, in which I trapped 76 coyotes, 3 bobcats, numerous muskrat, beaver, fox, deer, and even a few dogs. I became a very good trapper,...and as a vegetarian who can see auras, my numbers were twice as high as others in central Montana that year.

So, since I could not honestly say what an "I Am" is, I consciously set up a "surrogate I", a Trapper, through which all my thoughts, feelings, observations, etc., had to pass through.
The Art of Trapping learns the habits of its prey,...the day and season it will tread down a path, or how to entice it to your bait set. My 'Surrogate I' became an unfailing worker dedicated to peeling back layers upon layers of egos beliefs.

The inherent nature of this 'Trapper I' is keen and undivided, because it knows it is only a 'Surrogate I', not a 'Real I',...and therein lies its effectiveness. The sensory driven beliefs, memories, anticipations are its quarry, not its friends or allies. As such, the Trapper realizes quickly that intellect is undependable, something that belief uses to sustain itself. So when the intellect is sufficiently transcended, the Surrogate becomes aware of the 'Real I'.

The Surrogate is not looking for cause in this universal pulse,...cause is an intellectual perception arising from the illusion that objects are separate things. What the Surrogate does, is come into contact with the balance between illusions seeming effects,...and that uncovers Zero.

Realization of Zero is, from my observation, as a seventh initiation, the revealing through the Heart of our essence of the unchanging Source of Love. It's the realization of the backward flow of forward moving things.

The realization of Zero is the consciousness of Light,...and the I Am.

As for "logic",...it does not play much of a role in this Ascension Consciousness I'm pointing to. Logic is pretty much an object-ive based idea. Object-ivity arises from knowledge, or scientia,...whereas what I'm pointing to arises from Gnowledge, or sapientia. Knowledge, like the senses, beliefs, thinking, etc., is never to be trusted in inquiries to be honestly verified.

I mentioned before, if you'd like to better understand what I'm saying, try meditating on one verse of Tilopa's Mahamudra per day for one lunar cycle.
http://www.dabase.net/mahamud2.htm

I posted my own translation of this on page 3 of the What is an Atheist? thread.

Vicente
:)

[DavidS]

Hi vicente -

Thanks for the attempt to respond to my questions - what you say does give me a better sense of your subjective process.

However, I still don't see anything in what you say that would indicate that your process is any different than the process of any of the other kinds of 'believers' you routinely disparage and denigrate. As far as I can 'see', there is absolutely NOTHING in what you said above that honestly relates to the quesions and issued pertaining to "God" (in terms of the meaning of concept that I outlined in an effort to communicate with you).

Color me a 'stupid' banana, or anything else you like - but my 'sense' of you from having read all the things you have written (since I arrived at this watering hole), especially your stuff indicating you think-n-believe you are a 'loving' buddist-enlightenment (or any other kind of enlightenment) type person, is that you are quite possibly the MOST deluded and self-glorifying person here - the latter, the 'self-glory', usually accomplished by 'putting down' other people's process as 'flawed'. Your 'manners' are nasty and your 'methods' are obfuscational and devious (the latter 'evidenced' by your 'switching' you 'answer' to a different thread so that it is effectively 'dissociated' from the context of the ongoing conversation which led to the cmments I made and the questions I posed.

I know, I know - you'll 'assign' my 'perspective' in this regard to the garbage can by 'seeing' it as being 'biased' by my being 'threatened' by the 'truth' (what you assert is the ruth, that is). And in face of such 'logic', there is no way you'd be open to considering the possibility that I might be 'onto' your 'game', even if a bunch of other people here 'saw' things in a 'similar' 'light'. Just out of curiosity, however, is there anyone here who 'sees' vicente as being or saying anything even close to how he 'views' and 'presents' himself and his 'truth'? In my 'view', he is totally 'trapped' :( by his own circular arguments which simply reinforce his massive, self-glorifying delusions.

IMO, vicente may be a 'perfect' 'illustration' of the oft-stated metaphysical 'attraction'-principle derived statement: "You become what you hate."

- David

[vicente]

Actually DavidS, your post is somewhat what I expected,...your diatribe seems to be taken directly from the Young Republicans Pamphlet on Techniques for Truth Suppression.

I did however review your attacks in an attempt to understand why you spew them as you do. Of course, you are probably correct in suggesting that you're threatened by the truth, and I should simply leave it at that. Your relegation of my process to "subject-ivism" and "obfuscatity" clearly shows that you missed the point,...in other words, you are so attached to your own indoctrinated sense of logic and belief that such predisposition obfuscates who you really are from yourself.

Overall, to me, this is no big deal,...I'm very aware that in the Valley of the Blind, the one-eyed guy is treated for his disease. I run into people everyday who espouse tolerance and humility like yourself, until that is, one claims non-adherence to a God. From my perspective its all rather amusing,...albeit sad.


Techniques for Truth Suppression
(for Republicans Pioneers, July 2000)
Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense, other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press.

Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.

Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.

Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors." If, in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors." (If they tend to believe the "rumors" it must be because they are simply "paranoid" or "hysterical.")

Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.

Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter," "leftist", "commie", "kook," "crackpot", and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.

Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not).

Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can be very useful.

Dismiss the charges as "old news."

Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.

Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as ultimately unknowable.

Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. E.g. We have a completely free press. If evidence exists that the Vince Foster "suicide" note was forged, they would have reported it. They haven't reported it so there is no such evidence. Another variation on this theme involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press who would report the leak.

Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. E.g. If Foster was murdered, who did it and why?

Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing distractions.

Lightly report incriminating facts, and then make nothing of them. This is sometimes referred to as "bump and run" reporting.

Baldly and brazenly lie. A favorite way of doing this is to attribute the "facts" furnished the public to a plausible-sounding, but anonymous, source.

Expanding further on numbers 4 and 5, have your own stooges "expose" scandals and champion popular causes. Their job is to pre-empt real opponents and to play 99-yard football. A variation is to pay rich people for the job who will pretend to spend their own money.

Flood the Internet with agents. This is the answer to the question, "What could possibly motivate a person to spend hour upon hour on Internet news groups defending the government and/or the press and harassing genuine critics?" Don t the authorities have defenders enough in all the newspapers, magazines, radio, and television? One would think refusing to print critical letters and screening out serious callers or dumping them from radio talk shows would be control enough, but, obviously, it is not.

[rich]

david has vicente pegged to a T. :lol:

but rich will say, but, all of us are still, only human , (why say more?) for all of us
still make mistakes. ;)

[vicente]

No Rich,...DavidS has only pegged Vicente where Rich wanted Vicente pegged so to sustain Rich's illusion.

As George HW Bush said on August 27, 1987 "I don't know that those who don't believe in God should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Vicente
:)

[rich]

No Rich,...DavidS has only pegged Vicente where Rich wanted Vicente pegged so to sustain Rich's illusion.


Rich has no control of David's thoughts, but presume from what he posted, is, we agree with each other, on the subject of Vicente. :)

Vicente, if Rich has an illusion, it is Vicente's self improvment from R's posts. ;)

Rich wishes Vicente, well, despite our differences. :)

[Polaris]

Vicente is just another individual out in the stream, struggling to keep his head above water. He is no better, no worse than any of us here. His opinion is just that... opinion. It is neither correct nor incorrect. His opinion is subjective to the person he is based on experiences in his current and previous lives like our own personal opinions. He and his opinions should be treated with the respect we would expect ourselves. We all have opinions and we all, including Vicente cling to this opinions as they define us into who we think we are and form the image we cast towards others. We all carry our own set of baggage. Vicente is no different.

You can choose to agree with his opinions, or disagree, regard or disregard. If his opinions frustrate us this is not his problem, it's our's.

:)

[vicente]

And I wish you Rich, and all others here, all the wishes you wish for. As Polaris said,...I am no better or worse than anyone else,...I merely wear or don't wear, particular garments that others, consciously or not, choose to wear or not wear. Underneath the garments we're all the same. Considering that, I would not critique your nakedness, only your choice of clothes.

Vicente
:)

[rich]

Vicente, David, Polaris and all,

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall,

Egg was splattered all over the place,

Now, they say, "it is all over my face."

Oh, what a way to end a discussion,

Now, am waiting for a reprecussion.





;) :P :rolleyes: :blink: :lol:

[sahyo]

opinions should be treated with the respect we would expect ourselves


which is thinking-desiring"respect"ing-delusionwhichnot?

[sahyo]

vicente

no not thoughtIt's the realization of the backward flow of forward moving things.

[rich]

asheera :D posted:QUOTE

opinions should be treated with the respect we would expect ourselves

which is thinking-desiring"respect"ing-delusionwhichnot?


QUOTE

opinions should be treated with respect for others, except for ourself.
:mellow:

[sahyo]

r :D ich

opinions should be treated with respect for others, except for ourself.

cating(eating)mousing think
"opinions"
"should"
"respect"
"others"
"ourself
?????

[rich]

a ;) she :rolleyes: :D era,

maybe should read like this:

opinions should be treated with respect for others, and accept ourselves. :)

Love thy neighbor as thyself, means one also should love ones self. ? :mellow:

[sahyo]

ric :D h

lovcatingloveatinglovmousing think
Love thy neighbor as thyself?

;)











h

[rich]

asheera,
1:52AM here.
time to
retire.
Will have
a
glass
of
pinot grigio
before
going
to
slumber
land
to
ZZZlZZZozzzvzzze -_-

[sahyo]

:D

[Polaris]

Vicente said: "..I am no better or worse than anyone else,...I merely wear or don't wear, particular garments that others, consciously or not, choose to wear or not wear. Underneath the garments we're all the same. Considering that, I would not critique your nakedness, only your choice of clothes."

A fair and equal exchange and respect to the other person's style is enjoyable and even useful for getting familiar with the other person and perhaps a different fashion statement you hadn't previously considered. However, telling somebody, in no uncertain terms, that their sense of fashion sucks leaves very little opening for constructive sharing of fashion. The person who you think has no fashion sense might actually have some very nice things hanging in their closet that they might have been willing to share with you... but if you refuse to look or if they shut the closet door on you, it is you who ends up losing.... if you get my meaning.

All this talk about clothing reminds me of my days in high school. I was always very much an individual. I hated the fashions of the '70s. I wore loose fitting jeans, canvas tennis shoes, t-shirts covered with a flannel shirt or sweatshirt. Unlike most other girls in my class I was not a fashion dog but I was comfortable. There was one girl in my class whose father owned a very prestigous and expensive clothing department store. She had all the lastest fashions. One day she told me, to my face and in front of a crowded hallway of peers, that I had terrible clothes. I believe it was an attack and it was designed to hurt and humiliate me. She didn't get a reaction from me. I'm not sure what she was expecting me to do. Maybe she thought she was helping me. She maybe didn't realize that I was happy in my comfortable clothing and that as time went on I would be buying new clothes but that they would always be ones I found comfortable... ones that fit me.. uniquely ME.

The problem with critiquing a person's philosophy of life is that you have to understand where that person is coming from to fully understand why they have that particular philosophy. For example, Vicente, I had no idea you had experienced a NDE. You are who you are today partially because of your near death experience. I have nothing in my life to relate to that experience. I can't critique it or the change in philosophy it has brought upon you over the years. Keeping that in mind, I have had experiences in my life that you cannot relate to.. as we all have. None of us are really qualified to actually critique another's life philosophy because we don't know by what means that person arrived to where they are today. Whether a person chooses to believe in God or not, or whether they just prefer to remain undecided, we each have our very own set of reasons why we are this way. So I think we may be able to dialogue, compare and analyze how our philosphies are the same or differ but I think that none of us are really qualified to critique another's philosophy. I could have invited that girl in my high school to walk a mile in my old canvas tennis shoes but I still don't expect she would have understood me anymore than I understood her.

:)

[sahyo]

So I think we may be able to dialogue, compare and analyze how our philosphies are the same or differ

which thinks'desiring'"to dialogue, compare and analyze" ;)

I still don't expect she would have understood me anymore than I understood her

which 'expected'?

[Polaris]

So I think we may be able to dialogue, compare and analyze how our philosphies are the same or differ

which thinks'desiring'"to dialogue, compare and analyze"

True. I think the fact that any of us are here at The Big View (asheera included) indicates a desire to dialogue, compare and analyze. If not you would not have analzed my post, compared it to your own thoughts and created this dialogue between the two of us by responding to it. You have a desire to share your thoughts with us. If you didn't you wouldn't be posting.

So which thinks'desiring'"to dialogue, compare and analyze" right back at you. ;)

:)

[sahyo]

True. I think the fact that any of us are here at The Big View (asheera included) indicates a desire to dialogue, compare and analyze. If not you would not have analzed my post, compared it to your own thoughts and created this dialogue between the two of us by responding to it.

youthinking asheera 'awhy'readingrespondingtbv like polaris

You have a desire to share your thoughts with us. If you didn't you wouldn't be posting.

are yousure is desiringsharingthoughts?

:D

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by Polaris@Sep 8 2003, 08:01 PM

All this talk about clothing reminds me of my days in high school. I was always very much an individual. I hated the fashions of the '70s. I wore loose fitting jeans, canvas tennis shoes, t-shirts covered with a flannel shirt or sweatshirt. Unlike most other girls in my class I was not a fashion dog but I was comfortable.
Polaris! You were into grunge years before it was fashionable! You trendsetter, you! :D

[vicente]

Polaris,...very much appreciated your fashion analogy. There certainly seems to be a fine, and often subjective, line between critique and criticizing. Nevertheless, prim and proper Sunday clothes may access churches, but in no circumstance of which I'm aware, can access enlightenment. Conditions cannot access the Unconditional.

If a christian-Jew-muslem could demonstrate an example of a condition entering the Unconditional, and through so, that Unconditionality remaining Unconditional, would certainly be a demonstration which I be most interested in observing.

Vicente
:)

[Polaris]

Oh well Vicente. :) There's also a fine and subjective line between positive and negative criticism but it's all criticizing whether it be negative, positive or just a critique. In my experience, it takes a very special person to gracefully accept criticism time and time again especially on an issue which may be very near and dear to their heart..... like a spiritual belief or a life philosophy without getting at least a little annoyed. I'm not sure I know anyone that special.

Unconditional. There's a wierd word for you. Is it possible for something to be unconditional? In order for something to be unconditional it must be without conditions. Therefore, the absence of conditions is a condition of being unconditional. :blink:

Unconditional surrender? Can a person surrender unconditionally? Isn't the act of surrendering without conditions a condition?? :wacko:

In order for anyone to enter the Unconditional (whatever that may be) the condition is that they must be without conditions which really is a condition, which makes the Unconditional impossible. :lol:

[Polaris]

Originally posted by sonrisa+Sep 8 2003, 04:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sonrisa @ Sep 8 2003, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Polaris@Sep 8 2003, 08:01 PM

All this talk about clothing reminds me of my days in high school. I was always very much an individual. I hated the fashions of the '70s. I wore loose fitting jeans, canvas tennis shoes, t-shirts covered with a flannel shirt or sweatshirt. Unlike most other girls in my class I was not a fashion dog but I was comfortable.
Polaris! You were into grunge years before it was fashionable! You trendsetter, you! :D [/b][/quote]
:lol: In fact I have told my kids that exact same thing.

The plan is that every 30 years my fashion sense will be in style. With any luck, round about the time I check-out, I'll be in vogue again. ;)

[Polaris]

You have a desire to share your thoughts with us. If you didn't you wouldn't be posting.

are yousure is desiringsharingthoughts?


Yes, Asheera, your Guru-ship. You are one of the most prolific desiringthought-sharers on this discussion board. :)

[rich]

asheera answering polaris' reply:

You have a desire to share your thoughts with us. If you didn't you wouldn't be posting.

"are yousure is desiringsharingthoughts? "



A Multiple Choice Question for Asheera

If not a desire to share your thoughts with us,

are there any other reasons that you have for posting?

A: I Like posting.

B: To waste my time.

C: To waste your time.

D: Personal reasons.

E: None of the above.

F:All of the above!

[Thomas Knierim]

Polaris: I would be buying new clothes but that they would always be ones I found comfortable... ones that fit me.. uniquely ME.

While the combination of jeans, canvas tennis shoes, and t-shirts on Polaris is perhaps not 'unique' :P in the universe, it indicates that you chose convenience over fashion, which is likeable.

Clothes are primarily for thermic insulation and protection of the skin, but their secondary function, conveying social identity, has become much more important, and should now be considered its primary function. Come to think about it, beliefs are a bit like mental clothes. They provide insulation from conflicting ideas and values, and are adopted (in most cases) as an expression of cultural identity.

Are you a maverick, Polaris? :lol:

Cheers, Thomas

[Thomas Knierim]

Vicente: I trapped 76 coyotes, 3 bobcats, numerous muskrat, beaver, fox, deer, and even a few dogs.

What happened to them?

Cheers, Thomas

[a random hack]

vicente,
What should I wish for?

[vicente]

Thomas,...I think I'll avoid that last question.

Random Hack,...I met a cool woman once, named Margo, who wrote a book I never read call 'Mutant Message',...she said, during our 3 hour conversation, that while living among the aborigines that the presents/gifts one gave should be what the other wished for, not what the giver wished to give.

Seems I'm constantly running into cool people. Tonight at dinner I ran into Gregg Braden, a New Age purveyor wom I enjoy,...unfortunately he was leaving as I was going in. We exchanged hi's, and he told me about a new video he made,...would have really liked to sit down for a chat.

Anyway,...I once wrote the following about wishes:

Is a wish synonymous with hope and desire?
Hope and desire belong to an anticipation of the future,...
however, the future does not exist.
Hope and desire is for something which is not,...
In reality, there is nothing which we do not already have.
Desire suggests a feeling of lack, whereas
To 'wish', is to feel an impulse towards fruition,
or realization without any presupposition.
A wish is greater than self,...
it is an intentional invocation
to allow Spirit to flow.
Hopes and desires arise from memory and ordinary knowledge,...
Memories or ordinary knowledge can not manifest truth,...
they are nothing more than CONDITIONS repeating themselfs.
A wish, as I define it,
arises from the Heart of ones Essence,...literally.
A wish is as the Zero of the Tarot,...
it merely steps off the pinnacle into the
spirituality of the NorthWest.

To me, a wish is a grand unexperienced reality,
a tremendum uncovered by surrendering expectation.

Individuality is always convinced of its separateness,...
it hopes and desires, but can not truely wish.
To ask for anything is to deny what has already been given.
The motive of one conscious of wishing,
is always that the subject arrive at its
own harmonium.

Let Light Be,...our wish.

:)

[sahyo]

:lol:

You are one of the most prolific desiringthought-sharers on this discussion board.

which thinks sharing happening
only if thoughtdesire for sharing?,
polaris

;)

[Polaris]

Thomas: Are you a maverick, Polaris?

Yee-haaaa!! ;)

Jeeez, actually, I don't know. Tough question when you think of it. On a superficial level we're all individual and different when it comes to preferences but I suppose fundamentally we're all the same. :huh: Just don't try to take away my wool socks. ;)

[Polaris]

asheera: which thinks sharing happening
only if thoughtdesire for sharing?,
polaris

Not only. But in your case, here at the Big View, yes.

A person may unexpected share his rear end with strangers if, when he bends over to pick up a penny off the sidewalk, the seat of his pants split wide open.

A person may unintentionally share thoughts if somebody reads his private diary without permission.

Posting response on internet discussion board, or engaging in a conversation, dialogue, use of body language or any activity for the intent to convey a message indicates a desire to share thoughts.

Asheera desiringsharing thought-posting :P

[sahyo]

:)

polaris

dialogue, use of body language
or any activity for the intent to convey a message
indicates a desire to share thoughts

which is thinking"dialouge"?,
thinking "intent"posting?,
thinking is sharing
"thoughts"?

[sahyo]

Guru-ship?

[rich]

An Observation:
Too many things. Too Mant Topics
Mind is tired, 11:30 AM EST

Was going to write, but am too tired to think straight. going to lie down and snooze. Am really tired. B)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by asheera@Sep 9 2003, 10:21 AM
:)

polaris

dialogue, use of body language
or any activity for the intent to convey a message
indicates a desire to share thoughts

which is thinking"dialouge"?,
thinking "intent"posting?,
thinking is sharing
"thoughts"?
I rest my case. :)

[Polaris]

Guru-ship?

Only two people on this discussion board have had the desire to share their thoughts enough to recieve the title of Guru at this time. You are one of them :)

[DavidS]

Hi Polaris -

Please know that I very much appreciate and 'warm' to the 'sensibility' expressed in all your posts.

Vicente is just another individual out in the stream, struggling to keep his head above water. He is no better, no worse than any of us here. His opinion is just that... opinion. It is neither correct nor incorrect. His opinion is subjective to the person he is based on experiences in his current and previous lives like our own personal opinions. He and his opinions should be treated with the respect we would expect ourselves. We all have opinions and we all, including Vicente cling to this opinions as they define us into who we think we are and form the image we cast towards others. We all carry our own set of baggage. Vicente is no different.

Yes, I agree that vicente is like the rest (i.e., any) of us in the above-stated regard. However, to say that he is just that, I think, flies in the face of quite significant 'differences' which also pertain. IMO, his way of (attempting to) 'keep his head above water', by putting others views and opinions 'down' is often egregiously disrespectful (disparaging) of others 'personal understandings' of TRUTH (and various 'shades' and 'colors' thereof) pertaining to LIFE and therefore quite disruptive of attempts to share and arrive at mutually meaningful understandings here. In that 'sense', his manners and methods of 'interaction', which were what I was focusing on, DO NOT 'qualify' to be regarded and responded to as "no better, no worse" than those of any of the others here, any more than Bush's or Bin Laden's, IMO.

You can choose to agree with his opinions, or disagree, regard or disregard. If his opinions frustrate us this is not his problem, it's our's.

Again, I agree with your statement in this regard. I was making an attempt to 'trouble-shoot' 'the problem' -- which is not unlike 'the problem' one might experience if one tried to share the same living space with an unhousebroken animal.

The same sort of 'issue' pertains to asheera's 'manners' and 'methods' - at least that is my observation and ex·peer·ience in this regard - except her comments are more on the order of a 'fly in the soup', which is only slightly less 'undesirable', IMO, than vicente's more vocifereous sh*tting and p*issing on the views and opinions of others here.

Indeed, they both provide great 'opportunities' for the 'practice' of things like 'acceptance' and 'forbearance' -- perfect for people for whom such spiritual 'exercise' is what they 'need' and/or 'desire'. There's much more to 'love' and 'loving participation in life' than this, however.

It has been quite an 'education' for me, since I previously was under the impression that 'buddhism'-related venues and would be devoid (or at least 'more' devoid :) ) of the kind of my-way-of-thinking-feeling-n-acting-is-'superior'-to-yours, presently rampant in Jewish, Christain and Islamic 'circles'.

Fine with me if you and others others simply wish to lovingly embrace (in the totally 'accepting' and completely 'tolerant' sense) their 'baggage' if that's their desire.

Jes color me "Tough Love David", the "Ruthless Assessor", or whatever . . . B)

[sahyo]

I rest my case.

case?

Only two people on this discussion board have had the desire to share their thoughts enough to recieve the title of Guru at this time. You are one of them

if were attentioning would have noticed that some posts are just smilies, that most posts are very short and mostly quoting which responsing, and posts not sharing thinking

which thinksthought'tiles and numbers' can say?, when not

:)

[rich]

asheera posted:
which thinksthought'tiles and numbers' can say?, when not


:D "errrrrrrr, don't know the answer." Rich says.
:unsure: ;) :)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by asheera@Sep 9 2003, 04:58 PM
I rest my case.

case?

Only two people on this discussion board have had the desire to share their thoughts enough to recieve the title of Guru at this time. You are one of them

if were attentioning would have noticed that some posts are just smilies, that most posts are very short and mostly quoting which responsing, and posts not sharing thinking

which thinksthought'tiles and numbers' can say?, when not

:)
Previously stated by Polaris approximately 10 posts ago:

Posting response on internet discussion board, or engaging in a conversation, dialogue, use of body language or any activity for the intent to convey a message indicates a desire to share thoughts.

Smilies count as body language. Smilies indicate Asheera want people to think she is happy.
Asheera desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts.

Posts which are short still convey message that Asheera is sharing-reading one post and thoughtsharing by responding... even if response is short and mostly quoting asheera thoughtsharing.

All posts made by Asheera desiringsharing thought-posting. Asheera communicate like human-self with self-desire-sharingthought just like other Big View members who humbly post with self-desire-sharingthought except Asheera also desires-deny like human-self by posting sharingthoughts abstractly.

:) <-----body language. Polaris amused.

[Polaris]

Hi David,

I understand what you're saying but I wonder if, when you say "I was making an attempt to 'trouble-shoot' 'the problem' " if the reason you ran into trouble is because the problem you thought needed fixing wasn't really broken. That is to say, Vicente isn't a problem. His way of thinking isn't a problem. It's different, yes, but is 'different' a problem? Not necessarily. And then when it comes to one's philosophy, who's right?

Now, Thomas can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that this is souly a Buddhist-related venue and I'm not sure it is intended to be one, although there are a few of us here. But there are others here as well and I find it extremely enjoyable and interesting to watch everyone relate. In my experience on the internet, it's not easy to find a place where you can carry on a conversation that has some real meat to it. Something to chew on and think about. If we all agreed I don't think any of us would find this place half as interesting and enjoyable as we do. Speaking for myself, I come back here each day because I can usually count on there being something interesting to read here. If I came in and only found Om mani padme hum pasted over and over I would soon tire of reading that. I like having the Lord's Prayer tossed in there and Vicente's "no God" rants and Asheera's whatever that is she writes and everything in between. It's not just an exercise in tolerance, it an education too. And yes, you're right there is much more to 'love' and 'loving participation in life' than this, but then nobody expects this to be your whole life.

Disparaging remarks are never really a good idea. I agree. But I sincerely believe that a person does not have to take a disparaging remark to heart. We make victims of ourselves by inviting insult inside. Granted, we all have off days. I'm not special that way. I have days when I really have a low tolerance for such things and I end up annoyed or insulted.. a really really bad day is when I get nasty back. David, this is going to be distinctively Buddhist of me to say, but we bring this suffering upon ourselves by becoming too attached to the idea that everyone must agree with us, or perhaps that everyone has to like us, or that we are too proud to be told we are wrong. When I get nasty back I suffer two-fold. Not only do I suffer the hurt I allowed myself to become victim to, I also suffer because I've done something on impulse that I know was unwholesome. It's a rotten thing.

Also distinctively Buddhist of me, people who intentionally say and do things to belittle our beliefs and way of life will one day reap a mighty harvest of sorrow. So believe it or not, keeping this in mind, and having experienced my own share of sorrow in my life and I know what it's like, I tend to feel some compassion for these people. Suffering on any level is a terrible thing. I see a lot of suffering most everywhere I go, this discussion board is no exception.

Anyhow, it's tough, I know but I think we all get along really well here considering how different we all are. I guess because on some fundamental level we're really very similar and perhaps looking for the same thing. :)

[sahyo]

Smilies count as body language. Smilies indicate Asheera want people to think she is happy.
Asheera desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts.

hehehe....smilies not mean "want people to think she is happy"

responsing 'not' "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts."

:D

[fu*]

D.S.>>>Again, I agree with your statement in this regard. I was making an attempt to 'trouble-shoot' 'the problem' <<<

How benevolent of you. Thank "god" we have a harvard educated 'individual' to help us through the BS. ( I had time to make a longer post tonight but Polaris seems to have expressed things well)


D.S. on Asheera>>>>except her comments are more on the order of a 'fly in the soup', which is only slightly less 'undesirable', IMO, than vicente's more vocifereous sh*tting and p*issing on the views and opinions of others here.<<<

Isn't that what you are doing? But of course because they are your views, they are the correct views, and so they are not "sh*tting and p*issing".


I know that you will not take advice from the "un-schooled", but per chance if the high horse dismounts you any time in this life, maybe you could contemplate on why Asheera's posts seem to be a "fly in the soup". You may discover something about your self.

Tell me something David that is not in a book.
Tell me something David that cannot be 'talked' about.
Tell me something David that "you" know" "gnow" for certain.

And if it happens that what you have to say is that ' so and so' is "wrong", then I will say

FU

Have you anything to contribute besides deriding others? I would like to hear it.

Otherwise I will leave you and Richie and Shifu(teacher?) to convince others (yourself).

[rich]

fu* posted: FU

Have you anything to contribute besides deriding others? I would like to hear it.

Otherwise I will leave you and Richie and Shifu(teacher?) to convince others (yourself).




Would like to know, how you, Shifu and Richie can convince others about what? :unsure:
Convince others that David is deriding others? :unsure:
I do not think he is intentionally trying to deride others. I dare not speculate any further, for it is not my function to do so, :(

[Thomas Knierim]

Vicente:

Is a wish synonymous with hope and desire?
Hope and desire belong to an anticipation of the future,...
however, the future does not exist.
Hope and desire is for something which is not,...
In reality, there is nothing which we do not already have.

Here is what the architect said about hope:

Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.

More in the Architect's Speech thread.

Cheers, Thomas

[Polaris]

Asheera: hehehe....smilies not mean "want people to think she is happy"

responsing 'not' "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts."

What smilies mean then?

responsing 'IS" desiring sharing thoughts... whether they be happy thoughts or not and whether they be conveyed through writing, speech, body language, emoticons, sign language, pheromones etc..... it is all desiring sharing thoughts. :)

(Asheera + Polaris) = Dialogue = an exchange of ideas and opinions = sharingthoughts

[sahyo]

Smilies count as body language.* Smilies indicate Asheera want people to think she is happy.
Asheera desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts.

smilies not mean "want people to think she is happy"

responsing 'not' "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts."


What smilies mean then?

no meaning smiling....which is thinking smiling "meaning"?

responsing 'IS" desiring sharing thoughts...

no....thought'reacting'pastfuturewhichnot'desiress haringthoughts'....responsing 'not' reacting

whether they be happy thoughts or not and whether they be conveyed through writing, speech, body language, emoticons, sign language, pheromones etc..... it is all desiring sharing thoughts.
:)

no not "it is all desiring sharing thoughts"....which is thinking "it is all desiring sharing thoughts"?


(Asheera + Polaris) = Dialogue = an exchange of ideas and opinions = sharingthoughts

:) which is thinking'seeming'dialogueexchangingideasopinions?

[Polaris]

Asheera, you make me laugh. We could go on like this for a very long time.

:D <----------Polaris "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts." :)

[sahyo]

:D ;) :D

[rich]

Polaris, now let me try:

asheera is not "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts." :unsure:

maybe is like the movie star, Greta Garbo, whose world famous line is,
" I vant to be alone." ;) :mellow:

[Thomas Knierim]

Vicente: Thomas,...I think I'll avoid that last question.

But that seems to be the most pertinent question, because the animals you have mentioned may have become the victims of an entity of your imagination, the trapper.

Cheers, Thomas

[sahyo]

an entity of your imagination

yes "an entity"whichnot
which most people think'imag(e)ining'

[a random hack]

Thomas,
And maybe it was their 'karma' to meet the trapper?

And I think Vicente answered the question ;)

the presents/gifts one gave should be what the other wished for, not what the giver wished to give.

I hope you enjoyed my 'present', then ;) :lol:
perhaps the only need, in the arena of 'wishes', is TO wish... <shrug>

Polaris,
I love your fashion sense, hope you learn to ignore my rudeness as well as I have :lol:

[DavidS]

Hi Polaris -

Yes, to all that you said in your post.

I guess because on some fundamental level we're really very similar and perhaps looking for the same thing. :)
Yes, looking for 'same' thing - but not 'seeing' how to actualize 'same' thing the 'same' way. I hope the 'method' in my (apparent) 'madness' becomes apparent :D in due course. But that ain't really all that important to me. "Pudding"-proof is 'top' value - pray the souffle (sp?) doesn't collapse/fall -

Chef David

[Polaris]

Originally posted by rich@Sep 10 2003, 10:14 PM
Polaris, now let me try:

asheera is not "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts." :unsure:

maybe is like the movie star, Greta Garbo, whose world famous line is,
" I vant to be alone." ;) :mellow:
:) No Asheera IS "desiring sharing-bodylanguage sharing-happy thoughts." all right. She's just trying hard to deny it.

Everytime she posts it's like Gloria Swanson in "Sunset Boulevard"

Mr. Demille, I'm ready for my close-up

;) :lol:

[Polaris]

Random Hack Polaris,
I love your fashion sense, hope you learn to ignore my rudeness as well as I have


I never noticed you were rude in the first place. :)

[sahyo]

hehe

perhaps looking which insists asheera is posting
which polaris desires

;)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by DavidS@Sep 11 2003, 06:10 AM
Hi Polaris -

Yes, to all that you said in your post.

I guess because on some fundamental level we're really very similar and perhaps looking for the same thing. :)
Yes, looking for 'same' thing - but not 'seeing' how to actualize 'same' thing the 'same' way. I hope the 'method' in my (apparent) 'madness' becomes apparent :D in due course. But that ain't really all that important to me. "Pudding"-proof is 'top' value - pray the souffle (sp?) doesn't collapse/fall -

Chef David
David,

I'm glad that it's not important to you that we actualize things the same way because that's never going to happen. Don't worry about whether your method becomes apparent to the rest of us. It's only important that your method is totally apparent to you. It is your method. We all have methods that work well for us. My method is tailor made for me and I doubt you'd find it very comfortable.

It doesn't matter how we get there. There are many paths.
:)

[Polaris]

ahseera:

hehe

perhaps looking which insists asheera is posting
which polaris desires


"hehe"? asheera desires sharing happythought? Or asheera desires clearing frog from throat? ;)

polaris desires... yes. Polaris only human.. not enlightened/not desire. Asheera also only human.. not enlightened/not desire. asheera desires... also yes.

asheera not desiring thoughtsharing posting on internet if asheera enlightened/not desire.
asheera not enlightened/desires

Polaris says "It takes one to know one." :)

:)

[sahyo]

:lol:

It takes one to know one

one?
know?
one?

[rich]

asheera is hard to read and understand,

for she is so bright.

Like staring at the sun makes one blind.

B) ;)

[Polaris]

:D B)

[rich]

an icy chill fills my imagination :ph34r:

[a random hack]

Random Hack: Polaris,
I love your fashion sense, hope you learn to ignore my rudeness as well as I have


P: I never noticed you were rude in the first place.

Scrub that last comment then, you already better at ignoring my rudeness than me. :D

umm, what you mean by 'method'? What are you trying to achieve?

[Polaris]

umm, what you mean by 'method'? What are you trying to achieve?

The word "method" I borrowed from David when he said in his post (the post I was responding to when I used that word)
"I hope the 'method' in my (apparent) 'madness' becomes apparent in due course. " ~ DavidS

When I used it it was sort of meant to mean that we all have to follow our own paths. I wasn't trying to imply that there is anything to achieve. I've been an under-achiever most of my life.. it works for me ;)

[DavidS]

Hi fu* -

I accept and take your comments as a genuine expression of annoyance and displeasure with my 'manners' and 'methods' and will bear such 'criticism' in mind. I hope you experience the following as 'fun' repartee . . .

Tell me something David that is not in a book.

I haven't read "donkey's-ass game-snafoo" in any book I've come across. I don't know about you.

Tell me something David that cannot be 'talked' about.

Alas, you ask the impossible (by de·finite·ion) of me.

Tell me something David that "you" know" "gnow" for certain.

I "gnow" for certain that I don't "gnow" anything for certain, except that I 'gnow' what I 'gnow'! Howzat?

And if it happens that what you have to say is that ' so and so' is "wrong", then I will say FU

Please do - t'will serve to keep me 'honest'.

Have you anything to contribute besides deriding others? I would like to hear it.

Likewise, fu* -

:lol: David

[rich]

a razor's edge separates love from hate, and v.v. :blink:

[sahyo]

will bear such 'criticism' in mind

was fu* "criticism"ing?, david?

[dog goddess]

well that was the biggest bunch of crap i've ever read.




ever.





e v e r.

[sahyo]

dogging goddess doesn't post "crap"ping? :D

[rich]

dog goddess,
Don't blame me,
I'm only a bigview
guru. ;)

Will we ever see,
the face of your
avatar?. :unsure:

[a random hack]

DG,
You should see the 'crap' we don't post! :lol:

I kinda like the 'critcism', it shows passionate caring :)
maybe misdirected tho.

I wasn't trying to imply that there is anything to achieve. I've been an under-achiever most of my life.. it works for me
Guess I'm at the 'stage' of 'happiness-achiever', not really caring how 'others' judge me :) Have read a beautiful taoist parable about a tree which was useless to everyone, and so they left it to grow old and beautiful (to a tree, perhaps, anyway... :) ) .

[BeyondBeliefs]

(Hi, I'm New)
Having read from the beginning of this Thread (and no other)
I thought I might reflect on each point as I read.

Descartes, "I think therefore I am Human.".
Every living thing "Is" (am), as are the rocks.
But I am not me alone.
Even my alphabet was given to me.
Others have told me what to think about.
I am 50,000 years of accumulated thoughts passed from generation to generation since the invention of words.
Unlike rocks and mammals, I am not me.

Senses versus Reality
Yes, senses lie, but no more or less than the words of our ancestors.
The earth was always round and the sky blue for the same reasons and presenting the same evidence, no matter what our ancestors believed. Only Reality is Truth. In it's absense, beliefs can be anything.
Beliefs can only be contained by the discovery of Truth.
Up to that limit they are limitless and free to lie.

Religions exist and survive on earth because Reality can neither prove, nor disprove that "Dragons had wings and could fly.", or never existed.
In the absense of knowing Truth, religions must be enforced to remain standing, and so they condemn non-believers and threaten new born children with hell in order to preserve themselves, while surrounded by their enemy, Truth.

=====

Because I am not affiliated with any nation or religion, my words may be confusing.
before I go on... perhaps I should wait to see if my views are welcomed.

I've been working on a website that I call , " The Journey of Life", where I try to refine my observations, and express them accurately.

The Journey of Life (http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/t/TTPANTO/)

[Polaris]

Hi BeyondBelief.

I can only speak for myself when I say that you and your views are welcome..... and (so far) understood. :)

[rich]

Dear Thomas Panto/Beyond Beliefs,

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for sharing the beautiful web pages, The Journey of Life , created by you, and found agreement with most of which you wrote. You certainly put much time and effort on your creation.

Since it is lengthy in content to read all in one reading, the reader may want to read some of it now, and continue later.

[DavidS]

Originally posted by Polaris@Sep 15 2003, 09:38 AM
Hi BeyondBelief.

I can only speak for myself when I say that you and your views are welcome..... and (so far) understood. :)
Ditto BB. Please don't take my 'arguments' 'for' things like 'faith' and 'hope' (in another thread) to be an endorsement of any 'form'al 'religion' or 'philosophy'. I agree with your 'identifying' group-survival-interest and personal-survival-in-the-context-of-'belonging'-to-a-group-interest as major 'sources' of 'tyranny' vis-a-vis a soul's 'individuation' (which is the same thang as 'universalization', 'seeing' and acting from the point of 'view' that the 'self' is an integral expression of All That Is, in my view).

[BeyondBeliefs]

DavidS, Rich, Polaris,

Thank you for the welcome.

The posts, condemning the accusations about being accused of accusing, had me concerned.
But I feel better.

I try not to be so certain about anything that I curse those who try to help me.
We all tend to 'see' what we look for.
And most of what we are seeking was not our Idea or fault.
It is some long dead ancient relative that is still wasting our time.
When, once, a child was told, "The earth is flat", they then looked for, and found, the evidence to prove it is "truth"... so certain as to burn the non-believers at the stake.

This problem (Paradox of indoctrinated thought) continues today.

Unlearning a belief (e.g.: Flat Earth acceptance) takes a lifetime and I won't waste time attempting to undo such indoctrination.

Finding ways to reach children before they are indoctrinated is my remaining challenge.

===

vicente,

As your friend, I must remind you that Labeling and dismissing others is a form of denying oneself permission to change. Change, admitting that we have lived all this time without some tiny bit of wisdom, hurts. Trying to hurt others will not ease the pain.

Labeling them, "Heathens" and "Heretics", we have burned more scriptures, and their writers, than we have preserved. Certainty can equal Tragedy.

What once took thousands of lives and millions of brilliant minds to determine is now taught to kindergarten children in 5 minutes. "The earth is round and circling the sun.". The arguement was not only deadly, but also a waste of valuable time.

All of Humanity, has had to work together, for over a MILLION years, just to invent an electric toaster. And we have at least as much still to learn as we have already learned. Never be so certain as to harm those who care enough to share their wisdom.

-ThomasTP


My version of a current events page:

Bombs in Paradise (http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/t/TTPANTO/journey/AntiCreation.html)

[a random hack]

Hi beyond,

You ever made toast on an open fire? It works pretty well, as long as you stay aware :)

[Thomas Knierim]

BeyondBeliefs: All of Humanity, has had to work together, for over a MILLION years, just to invent an electric toaster.

:lol:

Welcome to thebigview, BeyondBeliefs.

That reminds me of a historical anecdote. I am not sure if it is true. During the 1960ties when the space race was at its peak, the U.S. and the Sovjetunion competed in developing the technologies required to transport a human being to the moon. This was a period of innovation (think of Teflon) and one smaller project was to design an astronaut fountain pen that works in a zero gravity environment. This is not a trivial task, because fountain pens usually rely on gravity to make the ink flow. Anyway, after spending a million dollars on research (1960 dollars that is!), the Americans came up with a working solution. The Russians -faced with the same problem- issued pencils to their cosmonauts.

Cheers, Thomas

[BeyondBeliefs]

Surely, Toast is the reason that we invented fire.
Or snow.... One of those two
Nessesity is the mother of all invention.

But are we so insecure in our abilities that we need a cold war to motivate us to create?
Must we encourage the use of competition, bankruptcy and poverty to motivate ourselves?

Could we invent a pen that writes in space because we wish to ?
Or must we threaten each other with nuclear extermination in order to invent a pen that writes?

It takes a lot of cooperation to play one game of football.
Without cooperation the death toll would be great, and all for just one game.
After which there would be a shortage of players.

[Polaris]

we invented fire.

We invented fire? :blink:

[sahyo]

Surely, Toast is the reason that we invented fire.

lightning didn't fireing until desired toast? ;)

[sahyo]

bb...can 'beyondbeliefs'? if not believe-beliefsare :)

[sahyo]

which says "Surely" if not believe?

[BeyondBeliefs]

ok, Controlling fire.

But now, I wonder if reading past the first sentence could offer you anything meaningful.

[a random hack]

Surely, Toast is the reason that we invented fire.
Or snow.... One of those two
Nessesity is the mother of all invention.

I wonder why we invented bread? :lol:

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by a random hack@Sep 18 2003, 08:08 AM

I wonder why we invented bread? :lol:
maybe we got tired of bartering? Some things/services don't barter very well? Or maybe some kings just wanted to see their faces stamped onto gold....

[a random hack]

<tries to toast a ten dollar note>
:o <_< :angry: :lol:

[sahyo]

:)


But now, I wonder if reading past the first sentence could offer you anything meaningful.



But are we so insecure in our abilities that we need a cold war to motivate us to create?
Must we encourage the use of competition, bankruptcy and poverty to motivate ourselves?

Could we invent a pen that writes in space because we wish to ?
Or must we threaten each other with nuclear extermination in order to invent a pen that writes?


birdsinging need motivation for singing?,
flowerflowering for flowering?

[Polaris]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 17 2003, 10:01 PM
ok, Controlling fire.

But now, I wonder if reading past the first sentence could offer you anything meaningful.
Actually I had a big old long post prepared in response to your's when I realized that there was no point in posting it.

A couple of points if you wish.

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Is a zero gravity pen necessary if a pencil will do the job just as well? No? Why was it invented then?
Could we invent a pen that writes in space because we wish to? Yes, obviously.

Now Plato was a smart guy. However, in my opinion, none of the things your wrote about in that post were "necessary" motivators.

We don't need a Cold War to motivate us. Competition, bankruptcy and poverty? No.

People are motivated by a variety of reasons, some of which have nothing whatsoever to do with necessity. Was it necessity that drove Hillary and Norgay to the top of Mount Everest? Is it necessity that motivates me to sit here and respond to you? No. What motivates you to post here?

Oh.and cooperation requires motivation as well.

BB, to me it seems that you paint such a depression image of life. It's as though your cup is half empty. Instead of focusing only on a half empty cup why don't you try seeing the cup in it's entirety? The potential of the entire vessel rather than your perception of its short-comings.

[DavidS]

Bombs in Paradise (http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/t/TTPANTO/journey/AntiCreation.html)

Cool page, BB - nice sound-'vibe', too. :)

[BeyondBeliefs]

Polaris
birdsinging need motivation for singing?, flowerflowering for flowering?

Those who don't sing sit in silence.
Those who don't flower, share no pollen.
What motivation does a mammal need to urinate or mate? None.
Being a rock or a mammal requires no external motivation.

Saluting a flag, sharing a pew, or joining a street gang, feels good.
But the motivation is not the flag, the religion or the gang colors.
It fills an other need that is otherwise missing in this artificial civilization.

Climbing mountains
I need no motivation to experience being alive.
I have been doing it since I was one year old.

I don't want salesmen, selling street gangs, flags, religions and plastic implants, consuming my time with their motivation. Life is short.
Surely, those who climb a mountain did not think of something more important to do with their time. They, telling me what they found on the mountain, is enough for me.
I'm to busy investigating my ocean to go there. Sharing note will have to suffice.

==

DavidS.

I would have finished the artwork for Bombs in Paradise, but Bush was in such a Hurry to eat the children of Bagdad that I had to post it early.

[Polaris]

Those who don't sing sit in silence.
Those who don't flower, share no pollen.
What motivation does a mammal need to urinate or mate? None.
Being a rock or a mammal requires no external motivation.

Being a rock requires no motivation. Being a mammal does.
When you say What motivation does a mammal need to urinate or mate? you answer your own question. NEED Instinct motivates a mammel to mate. The uncomfortable sensation of a full bladder motives a mammal to unirnate. Of course, the makers of Depends undergarments will tell you that a bladder will urinate whether your are motivated to or not.. but the need is still there.

I need no motivation to experience being alive.
I have been doing it since I was one year old.

Unless you have a death wish(and I don't think you do), you are constantly motivated to STAY alive. You eat, sleep, avoid standing in the path of an on-coming bus etc... all because you are motivated to stay alive.

As it is with people who are motived to climb mountains you are motivated to 'investigate your ocean.' One man's mountain is another man's ocean. What motivates the mountain climber might be very similar to what motivates you to investigate your ocean... or the motivations might be completely different. But it is still motivation.

[BeyondBeliefs]

A flea is motivated to jump on a cat.
A fruitfly motivated to stop and wash his face.
How small is the smallest thing that has no motivation?
Do we know where motivation Ends/Begins?

Bladders and Stomachs are different from Nazi's and Jews.
A Fashion/fad to die for?

edit: I need an English word to decern natural and artificial 'motivation'.

[sonrisa]

do we have words to discern that? Instinct, or gut instinct, maybe- as in a mother's gut instinct (natural motivation) is to protect her kids. As for artificial motivation- agenda? Where somebody appears to doing something for one reason, but their true agenda is something else altogether. Or perhaps that would be true motivation. Sorry, this is the best I can come up with. :blink:

[sahyo]

deleting

[rich]

motivation?

necessity/or a need for, is the mother of invention.

Being uninspired, seeing 'no need' is unmotivated.

One maybe 'motivated' to satisfy its own motivation,
its 'ego', is an unecessary motivation. i.e. no invention.

[BeyondBeliefs]

Natural motivation as in wishing to come to the aid of a horse stuck in mud or ducklings in a drainage grill..

Unnatural motivation as in Pop Tarts artificially flavored by DuPont, and 'revealing' halter tops on Hidden teenie boppers..

We conceive, design, build, transport, sell and buy all the products, for a just a paycheck ,
spending half our waking life in a factory
and the other half of our waking life try to purchase a life at the local department store with money.

Natural ? Un-natural motivations ?

[rich]

Originally posted by asheera@Sep 20 2003, 08:27 PM
deleting
OK asheera, no comment. :P

who and which says, "no comment"?

Rich says! :o

[sonrisa]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 20 2003, 11:10 PM

Unnatural motivation as in Pop Tarts artificially flavored by DuPont, and 'revealing' halter tops on Hidden teenie boppers..


ok, teenyboppers are naturally motivated to wear halter tops on 2 counts- peer pressure & boys, & not necessarily in that order. So that would be natural motivation.

I don't get it about the Pop Tarts. Don't buy Pop Tarts either, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[BeyondBeliefs]

DuPont can make anything (Swamp-Sludge) have a color, texture and flaver that is the most irresistable to mammal carcasses. Even more irresistable than food.

edit: But then, we are still hungry after consuming it.

===

It is the hidden that makes the boys and the girls seek halter tops.
Though seeking to see would be boring routine, the hiding is not, thus creating a artificial motivation and abnormal action.

Where normal is outlawed, abnormal begins.

[Polaris]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 20 2003, 06:36 AM


edit: I need an English word to decern natural and artificial 'motivation'.
The word is 'motivation'. There is no word to descern between 'natural' and 'artificial' because there is no need to descern between the too. Motive is motive.

Main Entry: 1mo·tive
Pronunciation: 'mO-tiv, 2 is also mO-'tEv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French motif, from motif, adjective, moving, from Medieval Latin motivus, from Latin motus, past participle of movEre to move
Date: 15th century
1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act

[rich]

Extracted from Polaris' post:
The word is 'motivation'. There is no word to descern between 'natural' and 'artificial' because there is no need to descern between the too. Motive is motive.

Main Entry: 1mo·tive
Pronunciation: 'mO-tiv, 2 is also mO-'tEv
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act


1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act

Motive is motive? There are 2 kinds of motivation, as per dictionary definition.
1. is need, while
2. is desire.

Need is something you can not do without.
Desire is something you can do without.

Though, motive is motive, perhaps one motive is of necessity, :D
the other motive, satisfy the ego. :blink:

[Polaris]

Need is something you can not do without.
Desire is something you can do without.

Though, motive is motive, perhaps one motive is of necessity,
the other motive, satisfy the ego.

It's still motive though.

[BeyondBeliefs]

Because I care how I use my time, I need to identify the difference between Human Motivation and the synthetic motivation fabricated by the owners of the slaves.

If a caddilac costs 10 times more, does it last 10 times longer and use 10 times less gas?

Can you sell pornography in a nudist colony?

People now buy diet pills from the same salesmen that sold them the lard and sugar.

Will a child who has witnessed the life threatening and life altering impact of child birth be careless?

Will a child that has witnessed how fragile life is, drive recklessly?

Can a child that is taught to be obedient make good decisions and change the future?

When the source of motivation is NOT HUMAN, then neither is the actions of Humans.

[Polaris]

We all have different reasons for being motivated, BB. Just because these things don't motivate you doesn't mean they wont motivate others.

When the source of motivation is NOT HUMAN, then neither is the actions of Humans.

That statement is ridiculous.

How old are you? I need to know what I'm dealing with here. <_<

[BeyondBeliefs]

Excuses, excuses.
Polaris, If it was easy, then there would be no borders and beliefs using their children to attack and defend their turf.

[BeyondBeliefs]

PS: I was OLD in Viet-Nam in 1967.

"The Rate at which learning takes place is our life's true length."

[Polaris]

I'm sorry Thomas. I just find your reasoning wobbles and changes directions depending on what's convenient for you. You contradict yourself and then try to reaffirm your new opinion to suit your needs. A conversation with you is like a hamster running on a wheel. Running like mad but going nowhere. Senseless. I'm stepping off the wheel. You can continue to spin. You're very good at it.

[BeyondBeliefs]

The faster your carousel spins, each seeing the real world as but flashes of speeding lights,
the brass ring is not easy to grasp in the blur.

Is it moving? Changing positions and being elusive?
Or just from the perception of the spinning rider of a carousel?

Since my first web page, (1983 Prodegy text page), I have been as consistent as Reality itself.

I expect no one to be able change their 'choice' of alphabet, language, nationality or religion, what we have had burned into us during our upbringing.
I expect only to make it obvious that it was done, so that patriots and followers learn not to murder Creation over the differences in their confusion.
Attacking Reality, War, over conditions beyond their control.

You did not build the carousel that you ride.
Nor did the children of Moscow, Iraq, or America.
The brass ring is the same world, no matter which cultural or religious carousel.you are riding.
The wars just kill the spinning riders, all seeking the same stationary brass ring.

[Polaris]

BB:
Since my first web page, (1983 Prodegy text page), I have been as consistent as Reality itself.

BB:
I expect only to make it obvious that it was done, so that patriots and followers learn not to murder Creation over the differences in their confusion.

BB:
Posted: Sep 17 2003, 10:11 PM in the 'Words' thread

We must be prepared to defend ourselves from the new obstacles that reality creates.

Polaris:
I just find your reasoning wobbles and changes directions depending on what's convenient for you. You contradict yourself and then try to reaffirm your new opinion to suit your needs.

[DavidS]

Polaris, I hope you don't mind my playing your 'second' here. BB, what I hear Polaris 'saying' is that "defending ourselves[/u] from the new obstacles that reality" creates ipso facto is or will in effect lead to and therefore be a kind of "murder" of "Creation".

In my own 'view' also, the 'necessary defense' axiom is a ''criminal' 'suspect' -- while it may have been (undoubtedly was, IMO) a necessary operative principle for biological evolution to reach the 'humanity'-potential point, I think that the whole notion/attitude of 'necessary defense', or any other kind of 'defense' for that matter, must be psychologically-n-spiritually 'jettisoned' for there to be a 'wholesome' or 'all-encompassing' 'solution' (to 'the problem').

In psychospiritual terms, anytime and to whatever degree one thinks-n-feels that one has to or should 'defend' one's self or a proxy self , one just reinforces one's 'belief' in the 'weakness' and 'vulnerability' of that self or proxy self and gets caught in a escalating cycle of having to wall off part of one's 'own' (everyone's 'own') 'ocean'.

Such 'protectionism' does not lead to what is 'best' (IMO) in terms of personal or social 'evolution' (again, I remind you, my focus is on quality-of-life-associated 'psychospiritual' values, not quantity-of-life-associated 'physical' ones).

The whole notion of 'defense', I think, bears being 'nuanced' depending on whether 'quantity'- or 'quality'-related, 'physical' or 'psychospiritual', matters are the focus of any proposition. (And then, of course, there's the 'interplay' between 'spirit' and 'form' to be taken into account.)

[sahyo]

there's the 'interplay' between 'spirit' and 'form' to be taken into account

:blink:

[BeyondBeliefs]

Born in Brooklyn, any nations child becomes a "Brooklynite".
I can think of nothing more fragile than a Human.

Our greatest care in their formation is not enough.
Using mere words, we paint a world in their mind that has all the blessing and all the curses of our own illusion.

We can make the baby into the patriot of any nation and the follower of any religion just by leaving them on a different continent.

Defending them from the reality (lower case) that we have fabricated is our challenge. We can not teach what we do not know. But we can warn them that Realty and reality are not the same. The Truth (whatever it actually is) is the same for every living thing that has ever existed on earth. Borders and beliefs exist only in the reality that divides us from each other and from Life in Reality.

Whew . I struggle to reveal my point

[sahyo]

Whew


:)

[Polaris]

It sounds like your point, BB is that our lives are based on a lie that is aeons old and that we perpetuate this lie by raising our children in the customs afforded to us by our families, communities, nations and ethnicity.

We are a gregarious species. We seek companionship and we thrive in communal-based settings. We honour the strongest members of our tribes (okay, sometimes we fail at that but generally speaking we elect the person who appears to be the best available choice) by making them our leaders. We follow these leaders, who give our tribes routine, custom and organization. Our leaders help us through drought, famine, disease, years of plenty, the good time, the bad times and yes, even conflict with other tribes who we feel threatened by, either in a competition for resources or as a result of fear because they do not understand the others' customs. That is the reality of the human race. It is as natural to us as flocking birds who flying south in the winter. As natural as a herd of gazelles, a school of fish, a mound full of termits, a pride of lions, a pack of wolves, a pod of whales,... any number of species which rely on a fellowship of their own species for survival: who follow the bird in front in a V-pattern, who follow the strongest gazelle when fleeing and when searching for food or water, the queen termit who requires that the drones serve her every need for the survival of the nest, the alpha male and female wolf who perpetuate the strength of the pack by denying other pack members breeding privledges, and all the other animals who live in pods, flocks, herds, packs, rooks, bevies, schools, prides, and villages. We all live in groups because it is the most efficient way to survive and all species who live like this understand and respect this system of survival. We all rely on each other for protection in a "safety in numbers"way but also in a cooperative way. We assist each other. Assistence requires organization, organization requires custom. That is our reality.

Nobody ever said that this reality was Truth or Reality or Absolute. We sit here discussing this in the Relative world, not the Absolute. We LIVE in the Relative. IMO you can even really discuss the Truth/Reality/Absolute in the Relative and there would be no need to discuss the Absolute if you were living it.. Is this whole spiel you've been on just to tell us that this isn't the Absolute? I think we already knew that.

But what you need to understand is that this reality (lower case) is how it IS in the Relative. All species live and function in the reality of the Relative. Humans aren't living a lie... we're just living. You may know there is something else out there but you are not there. You are here. You have to deal with reality in the Relative. It does you no good to be in constant conflict with this reality because this is how the Relative IS. IMO Reality (upper case) in the Absolute will be a long time coming to a person who can't accept reality (lower case) in the Relative.

[rich]

BB,

Polaris' reply I agree with.

Guess that we are here because we are here?

Are you a Brooklynite.
Did you ever ride a trolley car?
Do you have memories of Ebbets Field?
The Goldman Band?

Ahh, dem were duh days, all but a memory,
but once in my living now , with the rest of history.
Gone, but not forgotten.

So what?
Who cares?

None, but is that important?

:unsure: :blink: :rolleyes:

[BeyondBeliefs]

Those Humans who did not invent communication and forms of cooperation remained animals and perished (defenseless against dogs.)

Communication and cooperation (the unity) made it possible for Humans develop tools that enable them to overcome their physical shortcomings and survive without simply hiding from predators and praying for rain and food.

It is the UNITY that Humans depend on for their survival.
Unfortunately, villages invented their languages and forms of INOTY in ISOLATION. They are all different. (Normally No Problem). As villages grew, and discovered that other villages had different forms of UNITY, , speaking different languages, sharing different customs, and worshipping different gods, THEN to preserve and defend the VALIDITY of their OWN customs, traditions and beliefs, they condemned those OTHERS people and their way of life. Prejudice, PatriotiZm and War was taught to children.

Children were told that beliefs are more important than Truth.

Because children are DESIGNED to carry on the Successful methods of their predecessors, (the survivors), they will believe the lies, and continue to curse, condemn and kill the victims of other nations and other religions.

[sahyo]

polaris :)

We honour the strongest

"strongest"weakest?

Humans aren't living a lie...

yes most humans living 'asif' sleeping

You may know there is something else out there

"something else"?...."out there"?

but you are not there. You are here.

"not there?...."are here"?

You have to deal with

"deal with"?

a person who can't accept reality

"accept"notaccept?

[Polaris]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 25 2003, 05:54 PM
Those Humans who did not invent communication and forms of cooperation remained animals and perished (defenseless against dogs.)

Communication and cooperation (the unity) made it possible for Humans develop tools that enable them to overcome their physical shortcomings and survive without simply hiding from predators and praying for rain and food.

It is the UNITY that Humans depend on for their survival.
Unfortunately, villages invented their languages and forms of INOTY in ISOLATION. They are all different. (Normally No Problem). As villages grew, and discovered that other villages had different forms of UNITY, , speaking different languages, sharing different customs, and worshipping different gods, THEN to preserve and defend the VALIDITY of their OWN customs, traditions and beliefs, they condemned those OTHERS people and their way of life. Prejudice, PatriotiZm and War was taught to children.

Children were told that beliefs are more important than Truth.

Because children are DESIGNED to carry on the Successful methods of their predecessors, (the survivors), they will believe the lies, and continue to curse, condemn and kill the victims of other nations and other religions.
First of all, humans ARE animals.
There are millions of animals in existence today, most of which are NOT human but nonetheless do not perish as a result.
The most successful species on this planet communicate and cooperate.

Humans are not exclusive when it comes to adapting. Many animals other than humans also use tools to overcome their physical shortcomings. The finches of the Galapagos Islands which Charles Darwin studied have all adapted quite nicely to the unique conditions of that environment, and yes, even those tiny little birds with their tiny little bird brains, use tools. Adaptations which benefit an animal are common is so many countless species. Humans are unique primates but we are no more special when it comes to adaptation, evolution and natural genetic modification than any other animal out there. All animals have adapted and evolved in so many different ways and as a result species survive and even thrive. It's a little thing we like to call "Natural Selection".

Humans pray for rain. You can say this becuase you are human and you know that in times of drought humans pray for rain. However, assuming you have never crawled inside the head of a Galapagos finch, you have no way to know what that bird thinks about on those hot and dry equatorial days. Who's to say finches don't also pray for rain? They use tools like us. Maybe they pray for rain too.

It is the UNITY that Humans depend on for their survival.
Unfortunately, villages invented their languages and forms of INOTY in ISOLATION. They are all different. (Normally No Problem). As villages grew, and discovered that other villages had different forms of UNITY, , speaking different languages, sharing different customs, and worshipping different gods, THEN to preserve and defend the VALIDITY of their OWN customs, traditions and beliefs, they condemned those OTHERS people and their way of life. Prejudice, PatriotiZm and War was taught to children.

Why do you say "unfortunately"? Seriously... what were our alternatives? Build walls around our communities and never venture beyond them for fear of running into a member of another tribe? Or maybe you would have prefered we populate this planet en masse like one giant city so that we all live the same way and cooperate the same way. We would never have had anyone behaving differently. We would never had had to deal with anybody else's ideas. We would ALL BE THE SAME! That, Mr. Pantos, would be unfortunate.

I happen to think this planet is a richer place because of the diversity which inhabits it. I like hearing about other relgions, cultures and ways of life. I like hearing about other people's ideas and opinions (even yours, though I may disagree). I think we are richer for this experience. It only becomes a problem for people who can't open up and recieve our differences... our individuality... as a gift.

This is an opportunity for personal growth, BB. Why can't you see that? You can't squelch somebody else's individuality without eventually squelching your own. Is that what you want?

You need to stop looking at society as criminals who are so vile that we lie to children for our own self-profit.
You need to stop looking at children as though they have been poisoned or that they carry a communicable disease.

People must scare the crap out of you. :o

[BeyondBeliefs]

Polaris: First of all, humans ARE animals

No.
My body is Mammal Meat.
But I am NOT.
You are not speaking to my pancreas, liver, brain, gonads or bladder.
They are just meat. I am NOT.

The structure of my my body is made of billions of years of the cooperation of resonant particles.(evolution)
My 'Human' body is the product of 1.4 million years of cooperation among Communal BiPeds.
My Human MIND is 50,000 years of Thoughts (varuious opinions) shared across the world, and across time, using words.

My body is Mammal Meat.

===


Every Atom Adapts to it's surrounding. (Called "Existence")
What does the Human Mind adapt to?
Words.

"Natural Selection" happens in REALITY , not MYTH.
Is Zeus and Thor a reason to live and die?

===
Polaris: "Communicate"
Atoms Communicate, and so, they survive.
Trees communicate and so they survive.

One Galapagos finch Thinks as much as it's brain can hold.
Just like Humans, it takes billions and millennium, each thinking, and communicating with their surroundings, to make grass into a nest.

Before words, we had observation.
Most of what early Humans learned was learned from the millions of years of TREE's and BIRD's Thinking.

We carry the hopes and dreams of every living thing that ever existed.
The "Fittest"?
For a Human MIND, Survival of the fittest can not be determined by physical force.

===
Yes, Murder is Unfortunate

UNITY = HUMANITY
FORMS OFF unity are UNFORTUNATE. All different because they were invented in ISOLATION and therefore built using DIFFERENT lies.
Only the Unity is Humanity. The fabrications are NOT.

Fabrications cursed , condemned and KILLED each other over the DIFFERENCES in their LIES. Only the UNITY is LIFE and HUMANITY, not the METHOD of aquiring that UNITY.

Murdering Reality to sustain Myth is Unfortunate

===
Polaris: The USE of Diversity

Our DIFFERENCES (separate observations) are VALUABLE.
It is WHY we invented Communication.
To KILL each other over differences in our LIES is a WASTE of the differences that we REQUIRE to survive on earth as Humans.

===
Polaris : The USE of Diversity

World War two did not only Murder the children of their Time But also the billions of offspring never born because their parents were murdered over the lies of nations and religion who USED their population as soldiers, crusaders and missionaries to Attack the world to preserve their own LIES.

We NEED Our Differences kept ALIVE. Sharing our differences is HOW Humanity Grows. When you KILL people for being different then you kill your own future.

===
Polaris: Criminals

No living thing is a "criminal".
"Crime" is what YOU say it is.
One nations HERO is another nations TRAITOR.
One religion's Obedient Follower is another religion's Satan.

Ignorance is not a Crime. Ignorance is our History.

===
Polaris : individuality

Whose alphabet, language, nationality, and religion do you use? Yours? Every Generation can make a TINY contribution to Truth and/or to Lies. That TINY contribution is individual. The vast majority is NOT.

===

Polaris: "People must Scare you"

Those who don't understand a creation can fear it.
Those who understand a creation, try to save it.

Thomas T. Panto
241 Green River Road
Gaffney , SC 29341

Send me someone that you think I will fear.

[DavidS]

Originally posted by asheera@Sep 24 2003, 03:51 PM
there's the 'interplay' between 'spirit' and 'form' to be taken into account
While 'in the body', by virtue of the body being its 'vehicle', 'the spirit' has an 'interest' in what happens to and within the 'parameters' of its vehicular-'form'. 'The body' and 'the spirit' may be thought of as being 'wired' into one another, each thereby 'sensing' and being (potentially at least) influenced by the 'imperatives' (or 'values') of the other.

[Polaris]

BeyondBelief, you chose the right nickname. :wacko:

[BeyondBeliefs]

DavidS, In many ways we seem to have a similar view of our time here.
My body is temporary. What I was given is not me but what will leave here (both good and bad) is uniquly me. I am responsible.


Polaris, Thank You.

[DavidS]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 26 2003, 05:53 PM
I am responsible.
I 'see' and appreciate that you 'honor' your personal response·ability, Homeboy! :D "As God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk." (I Corinthians 7:17) (Please know that I am not plugging 'popular' notions of what's referred to by "God" and "Lord".)

Here's another 'hit' that I got on the same 'quote-search' venture for whatever stimulus value it may have:

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body ..., and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

[BeyondBeliefs]

"right" or "wrong" ny ancestors meant well when they nurtured my body and created my mind. It is up to me to make sure that they did not live and die in vain. A challenging endeavor, perhaps more difficult than creating an atom in empty space.

[The Great One]

Humans are doing the best they can with the five senses they have to work with.
If they can resist the slide toward insanity and self destruction they'll be alright...

[rich]

On realizing the many things which those living today, have been inherited by the 20th and 21st century generations. The innovations of today brings so many affordable conveniences to many consumers.

It is a shame that still many can not afford to buy these products, for many need the money to provide food and shelter to their family.

In my case, I have been very lucky, and do not feel that in my life time, I made a difference to this world. I really did not do anything productive for humanity, still received plenty, returned hardly anything. Wonder what awaits me, in the next world?

[Polaris]

Hey, Rich. You make a positive difference here so I'm sure you must have made a positive difference in real life too :)

[rich]

Dear Polaris,

Thanking you. :) :D

[Polaris]

Richard-san

Welcoming. :)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by rich@Oct 14 2003, 02:37 PM
Dear Polaris,

Thanking you. :) :D
Yeah, richie. In one way or another pertaining to most if not all of us, it's very well 'said', I think, in "About Schmidt". Not sure of the movie's title or the spellng of the name, but I recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it.

Just makes ya wanna sing "Amazing Grace", don't it?!

- David :)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by BeyondBeliefs@Sep 25 2003, 01:54 PM
Those Humans who did not invent communication and forms of cooperation remained animals and perished (defenseless against dogs.) Communication and cooperation (the unity) made it possible for Humans develop tools that enable them to overcome their physical shortcomings and survive without simply hiding from predators and praying for rain and food. It is the UNITY that Humans depend on for their survival.
Hi BB -

It strikes me that what you 'describe' pertains to 'our' 'past'. Even as imperfect/unbalanced/one-sidedly-skewed/flawed as 'our' "communication and forms of cooperation" 'networks' are, even with the 'degree' of DISUNITY this 'reflects', the fact is 'we' have become so 'successful' that, beyond 'merely' 'surviving', for a long time now, we have been 'caught' in a repetitive pattern of breed-n-creed-reproductive-group-waves 'colliding' with and 'swamping' 'neighboring' others, with the ultimate 'survivor' (i.e., the most 'successful' 'society'), as it continues to 'pursue' its 'instinctual' "Be fruitful and multiply" 'imperative', ultimately 'swamping' itself and decay-disintegrating in the sepsis of its own environmental-degradation in a final 'operatic' 'crescendo.

Strikes me that that 'pattern' is going to continue to be "The Way of all Flesh" until and unless the 'instinctual imperative' thang is 'transcended' and 'let go of', and things like 'minimizing' the size of one's and one's eco-social associates' system-disrupting 'footprint' begin to be more highly 'valued' than thangs which go hand in hand with social 'survival' and 'ascendancy' considerations.

For that even has a chance of happening on an across-the-board 'scale', there will have to be across-the-board 'awareness' that such 'instinctual imperative' is now extremely counterproductive.

How will such 'awareness' 'develop' and/or 'spread' across-the-board? Well, given people's capacity to 'rationalize' just about anything and so remain in 'denial' of('obvious' to someone else) 'truth", methinks that the 'writing on the wall' will have to become VERY large and VERY loud and 'virally' spread until its scrawled all over the place (you guessed it, 'across-the-board', that is! :D ).

At this historical stage in our species' development, were still largely a bunch of psychospiritual 'dummies', dummy-'clones' [!] actually. ;) The 'graphics' have to become extremely 'intense' for them to be 'noticed' and have a chance of being meaningfully 'awareness'-integrated. And, even then, the 'display' has to keep being 'repeated' (since a large portion of the population falls back to 'sleep' even then after being 'roused' by and 'registering' the significance of such events). Me thinks we're already well underway, in terms of the next 'global' round of: "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:28-31)

Reprise: When will they ever ever learn, when will they ever learn ... the 'answer' my friend is blowin' in the wind . . .

[vicente]

Polaris exclaims "it sounds like your point is that our lives are based on a lie".
DavidS concludes "When will they ever ever learn, when will they ever learn ... the 'answer' my friend is blowin' in the wind . . ."

Yes,...the beLIEfs which hold the dream (Polaris' relative world) together are indeed a lie (and can be verified),...all beLIEfs are, in fact, lies. If a beLIEf was true, it would no longer be a beLIEf. BeLIEfs remain because we feed them,...ie., by suggesting the "answer is blowing in the wind", when the truth is that the wind sucks (prompted by low pressure). Perhaps a simple example, but when one adds up the delusional perceptions the Collective bases their reality on, the lie becomes very clear.

My question in this dialogue would be (yes, I already gnow the answer) why there is so much energy exerted on feeding the lies of beLIEfs? Why do most literally choose to go to the ends of the earth, through diversion after diversion, rather than simply being honest.

Honesty is the threshold to Reality. Clinging to beLIEfs for ones identity is nothing less than insanity.

Vicente
:)

[DavidS]

Originally posted by vicente@Nov 2 2003, 01:13 PM
Honesty is the threshold to Reality. Clinging to beLIEfs for ones identity is nothing less than insanity.
Yes, 'clinging' is 'insanity'; and 'clinging to lies' is insanity[squared].

Trouble is one [wo]man's 'truth' is another [wo]man's 'lie'. You, for instance, 'look' as 'lie'-'believing' to me as I imagine I must 'look' to you.

Namasté (and I mean what the word 'says'), dude

David :)

[vicente]

DavidS,...I'm not much interested in your truth, nor what I may think truth is,...but what about truth's own point of view?

As I mentioned before, can we agree on any one litmus test for truth? For example, if we honesty consider the term 'Now', it is quite clear that the Now cannot be the past, for if the past (somehow) got into the Now, the Now would no longer be the Now, but an aspect of the past. This is the same with Unconditionality,...if a condition entered the Unconditional, then the Unconditional would no longer be Unconditional.

From light's point of view, it is Still. Light travels no distance in no time. Yet from ego's point of view, for every 186K miles of perceived space we create one second of time. Which is true? the Collectives perception of light, or light's view of itself? In nearly all situations, as Descartes said, the human senses cannot be trusted. Thus, as mentioned in the orginal post in this thread, we need another way, an honest way, to uncover what is true, and what is false in respect to that truth.

If there is a "trouble", it is an unwillingness to look at beliefs. If clinging to lies is insanity squared, would clinging to beliefs be any less insane?

Vicente
:)